Author Topic: Being nice to theists  (Read 5943 times)

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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #145 on: March 28, 2012, 08:40:20 AM »
No, respect is assumed from the start. That's how people get on.

Respect is earned, not assumed.
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Offline Zankuu

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #146 on: March 28, 2012, 08:53:18 AM »
No, respect is assumed from the start. That's how people get on.

That isn't how I operate. In fact, I'd go as far as saying there probably isn't a single atheist on this forum that begins their relationships by respecting new individuals they meet. Respect is something that is earned. All my relationships begin at an impartial and neutral state of respect. Respecting people for absolutely no reason has a sense of gullibility to it.
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Offline Omen

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #147 on: March 28, 2012, 09:00:43 AM »
The only thing that occurs on this forum is that theist, who have a tendency to lie and equivocate about their religious beliefs, are openly threatened by simple criticisms of the claims they make.  They are so insecure about their religious beliefs as to be incapable of separating their claim from themselves as an individual.  No one here engages in overly insulting attitudes or character attacks from the onset and the few that do are irrelevant to the overall attitude of the forum.  Most examples you could cite bare this out in explicit detail, such as the one about ILY where ILY claims being 'attacked' in a dialogue where not a single solitary person openly insults him and instead people have done nothing but offered him questions or rebuttals to his initial claims.
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Offline ungod

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #148 on: March 28, 2012, 09:04:37 AM »

ungod:  That's an example of being nice, but it isn't very useful if you aren't in a church.

Only if sermons are confined to churches. Seen a few here!
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Offline Seppuku

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #149 on: March 28, 2012, 09:44:16 AM »
Start neutral. They can either earn respect or disrespect. It's up to their behaviour. How can I respect somebody I don't know? I can be neutral and as I learn more about them there might be things I do respect, but also things I don't respect. Unfortunately there are many who walk in and show disrespect from post one. Whilst I am tolerant and calm mannered, it is hard to respect somebody who can't respect you, people like you or even this forum's rules.

Those that come in here with a neutral attitude and don't come in with anything disrespectful things in mind and conduct themselves within the rules of the forum you will find people will end up respecting them. Atheist or theists, doesn't matter.

Unfortunately you're an atheist who has come here and started being disrespectful from post 1, yes you apologised for it, but have continued to be disrespectful in how you've been dodging and ignoring posts, making troll-worthy remarks (which you seem to be trying to avoid since ER) and failing to back yourself up. You've made some pretty strong claims about the members, but you've yet to directly address their defences or back yourself up for that matter.

You are a rule breaker. I have directly shown you which rules, but you've not even addressed that yet. If you don't like the forum's rules then you don't have to be here, but they're there to make sure people engage fairly in discussions, it's to avoid one-sided conversations like this:
A: Cows can speak English
B: I thought they could only say 'moo', have you got any back up?
A: Scientists have discovered a cow who can speak clear English, not like a parrot can who can imitate sounds, but actually say, "I'm bored of grass, I fancy myself a nice juicy steak".
B: So you're just going to make baseless claims.
A: It's true, scientists says so.
B: Well, according to (x) scientific journal, a cow's cortex is unable to process that much language information. Something complex like the English language would require a much larger cortex. According to (y) documentation, through human evolution our cortex grew larger, which allows us to communicate language a lot more efficiently. Compared to a chimpanzee who has a smaller cortex is capable of language but it doesn't in anyway mirror our capacity for understanding language, though they do not speak it, and we're talking about a more intelligent animal than a cow. Cows say 'moo', not, "would you like fries with that?"
A: Scientists always disagree with each other, this cow speaks English, there's actual footage of it, maybe its their next stage in genetic mutations.
B: Source???
[insert several pages of dodging]

So on one hand you've got a guy JUST making claims, not preparing to directly engage with the second guy's points and not only that guy A won't provide a source or even attempt to back his claims and can continue to run people around in circles with baseless claims about a cow who speaks English. The second guy even tries to use some science to challenge person A's claims, but they're just brushed away and ignored and replaced with a repeat of the same baseless claim.


In this discussion you're person 'A'. But you're welcome to prove me wrong by offering some back up. I've already provided a little back up earlier in this thread, if you're willing to offer some back up yourself, I'd be happy to fetch some more.
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Offline caveat_imperator

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #150 on: March 28, 2012, 02:41:42 PM »
No, respect is assumed from the start. That's how people get on.

That isn't how I operate.

But it is how kymer and his ilk operate. Respect is assumed from the start for his views and disrespect is assumed from the start for your views.
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Offline bertatberts

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #151 on: March 28, 2012, 03:23:11 PM »
No, respect is assumed from the start. That's how people get on.

That isn't how I operate.

But it is how kymer and his ilk operate. Respect is assumed from the start for his views and disrespect is assumed from the start for your views.
No it is not true, that way of thinking will get you nowhere, your at an impasse from the onset.

Respect is a feeling. And it’s an earned position. People earn respect.
 
It is all down to how personable a person is, to the more respect they will earn.
Things like taking responsibility when responsibility is not really yours.

Respect is earned by words, and by deeds. Like keeping your promises. Not patronising or talking down,  It’s that extra effort. It’s that extra mile. It’s your measure of sincerity. People can sense that you care, and will respect that effort.   

You earn respect by showing respect. If you take the time to demonstrate respect for people, they will show you respect.

When people show you respect it makes you feel good  and you reciprocate. However on the other hand when they don't, when they lie or are insulting you find it hard not react.

However when it comes to personal beliefs, respect can only be earned by positing the truth.
Else all and sundry could claim whatever they like and expect respect for the same.
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Offline kymer

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #152 on: March 28, 2012, 03:45:02 PM »
I'm surprised at this reaction. If I suggested anywhere else that respect should be assumed, there would be none of this. And it goes back to diplomacy. You can't get through to people if you get off on a bad note. This makes sense.

Offline caveat_imperator

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #153 on: March 28, 2012, 04:46:47 PM »
Respect is a feeling. And it’s an earned position. People earn respect.
 
It is all down to how personable a person is, to the more respect they will earn.
Things like taking responsibility when responsibility is not really yours.

Respect is earned by words, and by deeds. Like keeping your promises. Not patronising or talking down,  It’s that extra effort. It’s that extra mile. It’s your measure of sincerity. People can sense that you care, and will respect that effort.   

You earn respect by showing respect. If you take the time to demonstrate respect for people, they will show you respect.

When people show you respect it makes you feel good  and you reciprocate. However on the other hand when they don't, when they lie or are insulting you find it hard not react.

However when it comes to personal beliefs, respect can only be earned by positing the truth.
Else all and sundry could claim whatever they like and expect respect for the same.

I agree completely, but whenever I read people like kymer saying this:
No, respect is assumed from the start.

...I can't help but speculate that they think respect is exclusively for their views and disrespect is assumed from the start for anyone who doesn't agree with them, and the evidence of their posts doesn't help me reject my speculations.
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Offline fishjie

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #154 on: March 28, 2012, 05:52:14 PM »
I'm surprised at this reaction. If I suggested anywhere else that respect should be assumed, there would be none of this. And it goes back to diplomacy. You can't get through to people if you get off on a bad note. This makes sense.

EXACTLY.   and 100% of the theists that come on here are rude, condescending, lying sacks of moronic shit.

on the internet, i troll theists because they are fucking stupid and rude.   its almost as if they know they can get away with saying crap such as "UR GONNA BURN IN HELL CUZ THE BIBLE SAYS SO AND I BELIEVE THE BIBLE CUZ I HAVE FAITH!!!!11", because they'll never be held accountable.

in real life, i don't troll them, because they cannot hide behind the anonymity of the internet, so they never ever preach to my face.    ever.     the ones who approach me in public are so timid, i tell them a firm no, and that's that.   if they did use their retarded arguments, then yes i would troll them right back.

but yeah, i actually miss church.    i like the community aspect of religion, i just dislike the stupidity.     most christians i knew were fairly intelligent, because they could compartmentalize their faith.    so long as we dont talk about religion, its very civil.    since this is a forum about religion, of course people are going to discuss religion, and of course since theists on the internet are very rude when they can hide behind their monitors, the discussion goes to shit.

edit:   in fact one of the girls i'm dating right now is a christian.   she never EVER brings up religion, and our "conversations" are civil, if you know what i mean ;)

edit: 

also getting a strong christian vibe from kymer.   i'm gonna guess in a few weeks he will magically "convert" to christianity, in a misguided attempt to witness.   rofl.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2012, 05:55:46 PM by fishjie »

Online jdawg70

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #155 on: March 28, 2012, 06:37:35 PM »
I'm surprised at this reaction. If I suggested anywhere else that respect should be assumed, there would be none of this. And it goes back to diplomacy. You can't get through to people if you get off on a bad note. This makes sense.

I'm surprised you're still using the word 'respect'.  There are several walls of text behind you in response to several points that you were trying to make, and those walls of text contain talking points for discussion.  You've not bothered to even acknowledge some of those.  I'd label that as disrespect.

I disagree that if you suggested anywhere else that respect should be assumed that everyone would be all right with it.  I wouldn't be.  I'm going with Zankuu's neutrality.
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Offline Omen

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #156 on: March 28, 2012, 07:06:17 PM »
Now if only we can get Penfold to come back and support his claims.
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Offline bertatberts

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #157 on: March 29, 2012, 01:50:46 AM »
Now if only we can get Penfold to come back and support his claims.
Does that mean Kymer has, Where! Where!
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Offline albeto

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #158 on: March 29, 2012, 02:00:44 PM »
You can't get through to people if you get off on a bad note. This makes sense.

Sure you can.  An argument stands or falls based on the merits of its evidence.  Some of us don't get caught off guard and choke back tears when people don't stroke our egos. 

Offline Whateverman

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #159 on: March 31, 2012, 07:46:57 PM »
I'm surprised at this reaction. If I suggested anywhere else that respect should be assumed, there would be none of this.

The problem is that no one assumes respect for people they don't know.  As Seppuku mentioned, they assume a neutral stance, and a modicum of respect is granted as long as the other person seems inclined to do the same.  The two people build trust with each other as they communicate.

I default to neutrality, but if the first communication I get from the other person contains insults or condescension or requires that I treat them or their views as superior, that trust goes out the window.  As it should.
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Offline zach311

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #160 on: April 27, 2012, 11:04:36 PM »
Kymer, I think you are exactly right with this post. I read your first one and glanced over some of the other ones, and I think you stated some very good points. Obviously, people are going to have disagreements and different opinions (just look at this website and consider how many others there are just like it). However, while people will disagree I think attacking someone’s character without even knowing them is a low blow that is uncalled for. I don’t think anyone will ever change their opinion/belief because they were insulted or yelled at. Like you said, if two people can come together and have a level headed conversation I think there is room for growth on both sides.
Additionally, on a site like this how the discussion is conducted can speak to hundreds if not thousands of people. Whenever I read some replies and all they do is talk about how stupid the other person is, the first person instantly looses credibility with me by 1) not sticking to the topic and 2) resorting to childish behavior. I definitely think there needs to be more patience and understanding between people so that there will be a chance that they will actually listen to one another and so that one might change his or her mind, which is the point of the exchange in the first place.

Offline Nick

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #161 on: April 27, 2012, 11:33:46 PM »
I think we suffer from "mailbag withdrawl".  We use to let it all out there.  Now if a stray theist wonders in we kind of gang up on  him/her.  But they make it so easy with their stupidity.
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Offline albeto

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #162 on: April 28, 2012, 12:30:33 AM »
I definitely think there needs to be more patience and understanding between people so that there will be a chance that they will actually listen to one another and so that one might change his or her mind, which is the point of the exchange in the first place.

Sorry dude, if your ego has to be stroked in order to hear and comprehend information, you may in the wrong place.

Offline Omen

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #163 on: April 28, 2012, 12:41:34 AM »
while people will disagree

Find a single person who disagreed.

Quote
I think attacking someone’s character

Find me a single instance of Kymer providing an example of anything he claimed was happening here.

Quote
  Whenever I read some replies and all they do is talk about how stupid the other person is,

Care to cite any of these replies?
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Offline Omen

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #164 on: April 28, 2012, 12:45:15 AM »
Whatever treatment someone receives on this forum has nothing to do with what they believe, but instead it has to do with how people behave.

If you make ignorant claims, lie, dodge questions, and generally treat other people like shit by refusing to be responsible for your claims - you will receive like in kind.

The typical example is as follows:

1. A theist arrives and makes assertions.
2. Various non-theist ask the theist questions pertaining to the assertions that are made
3. Theist refuses to support their assertion and continues to make new assertions as unsupported as the last.
4. Non-theist, now frustrated, point out that it is dishonest to behave the way the theist is behaving.
5. Theist cries their being persecuted; they often claim being 'attacked' 'insulted' and all kinds of other things.. even in the complete absence of any such posts to cite as examples.

'Jstwebbrowsing' is our latest example of this kind of behavior.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #165 on: April 28, 2012, 01:20:30 AM »
the perception is increased by the large number of people who respond to new theists especially. I can attest to that. It becomes overwhelming and you don't know if you're Arthur or Martha.
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Offline Whateverman

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #166 on: April 28, 2012, 06:15:36 AM »
Whatever treatment someone receives on this forum has nothing to do with what they believe, but instead it has to do with how people behave.
I disagree completely.

Certainly, there are lots of theists here who dodge, preach and generally behave dishonestly.  They also tend to write poorly.  These things often make their time here short or painful - or both. 

Yet I often see Christians challenged to explain many of the contradictions in the bible, simply because they've declared themselves Christian.  Nearly all theists who post here are assumed to believe in an Om<x> deity, and are usually asked to defend the incoherent nature of this idea, even if all they've done is comment on something unrelated.

AFAICT, this is a website inhabited mostly by atheists.  It would be unrealistic to imagine that theists are going to be welcomed with open arms here.  I've never seen a believer here NOT encounter a certain level of hostility, regardless of their behavior.  I don't think this is necessarily wrong or bad or uncalled for, but I *do* think it's wrong to deny that it happens.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #167 on: April 28, 2012, 06:26:57 AM »
A thought I just had: would it help both the regulars and newcomers here if the '3 posts before you can start a thread' rule was slightly amended?

It really confused me when I signed up (admittedly because I only skimmed the rules), and it meant I jumped straight into an active thread. That seems to happen a lot - theists jump in the deep end, so to speak.

So how about if newcomers could start a new thread immediately, but only in "Introductions". That way they can introduce themselves and receive a warm welcome (which does happen and is commendable -  the 'no debating' rule helps), and the members can also then see who the newcomer is and where they're coming from.

That might smooth the way a bit for the rough and tumble of the rest of the site.
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Offline Omen

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #168 on: April 28, 2012, 08:42:47 AM »
Yet I often see Christians challenged to explain many of the contradictions in the bible, simply because they've declared themselves Christian.  Nearly all theists who post here are assumed to believe in an Om<x> deity, and are usually asked to defend the incoherent nature of this idea, even if all they've done is comment on something unrelated.

99% of the theist that come here are christians.   If they claim to be christians then they must answer for contradictions in their religious text.

Quote
AFAICT, this is a website inhabited mostly by atheists.  It would be unrealistic to imagine that theists are going to be welcomed with open arms here.  I've never seen a believer here NOT encounter a certain level of hostility, regardless of their behavior.  I don't think this is necessarily wrong or bad or uncalled for, but I *do* think it's wrong to deny that it happens.

The counter argument I'm making isn't that hostility doesn't occur, it's that specifically the claims of the people in this thread are NOT backed up by evidence.  Kymer, Penfold, and a few others made very dismissive generalizations about the entire community BASED ON ABSOLUTELY NOTHING THAT THEY COULD CITE AN EXAMPLE FOR WHEN ASKED.  Kymer was just a troll and his actions on this forum were already disingenuous, but Penfold arrogantly went on to claim he wasn't going to back up anything he claimed.. which .. he somehow gets a rubber stamp of approval? 

This is incredibly important, if you can't tell me or anyone.. exactly what you're complaining about, how do I know the difference between what is most likely just their emotional insecurity tied to their religious belief and feeling 'threatened' because someone did something as benign as ask them to support their own claims and them actually being unfairly aggressively attacked.  It happens time after time after time, a theist makes a claim.. a theist gets hammered with questions and challenges to that claim, the theist whines and complains about being 'attacked'.  All that does is censor the discussion, reinforce what they wanted to believe about atheist anyway, and allow them to avoid all intellectual responsibility.

We don't have to apologize for requiring people to be honest.  We are not responsible for the emotional insecurities drummed up out of the cognitive dissonance of someone's delusional beliefs.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 09:00:28 AM by Omen »
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #169 on: April 30, 2012, 11:29:52 AM »
Yet I often see Christians challenged to explain many of the contradictions in the bible, simply because they've declared themselves Christian.  Nearly all theists who post here are assumed to believe in an Om<x> deity, and are usually asked to defend the incoherent nature of this idea, even if all they've done is comment on something unrelated.
Are you saying that they shouldn't be asked about their religion when coming onto a forum that's called "Why Won't God Heal Amputees?"  This seems to be an attempt to claim that these people are indeed idiots and that's why they should be treated with kid gloves. 

You seem to want to consider anyone asking a christian about their faith to be hostile.  That's an assumption that is unwarranted, unless you want to claim that anything questioning a theist's faith is "hostile".   I'm not one to say "poor ignorant fool, let's just let him stew in his own nonsense" to spare someone from actually thinking. 

AS for what you said, MM, the problem with allowing people just to introduce themselves would be that many theists would simply preach and run.  They do that often enough but if they are directed to contribute (and it's no one's fault but their own to be ignorant of the forum rules), and they don't we can take their measure quite quickly by their actions.   If anything, I would put in the rules, that the fourth post of anyone shall be a intro thread.   
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Online Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #170 on: April 30, 2012, 01:19:55 PM »
Man after reading this I'm no longer convinced myself it's possible to be nice.   :o

In a world without God isn't it just up to an individual to choose when to give respect and how much to give.  I mean I've seen people (in prison documentaries) that don't respect anything at anytime.  On the other hand I've seen people give respect to others even if I didn't think they deserved it.

So how can the opinion of either side of this argument be more correct than the other since it's each individual that decides what he/she is willing to do? 

In my experience, I notice most that respect is given when it is received.  Respect usually earns respect.  This is not always true but more often than not it is, at least from what I have observed.  So to me the question is who should show respect first?  In short, the answer is I should.  This seems the best way gain respect the quickest since respect is almost always mutual and I cannot control the other person's actions.  I'm not saying I always do this because I don't.  But this is the goal for which I strive.

So in your opinion who should show respect first?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 01:26:01 PM by Jstwebbrowsing »
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #171 on: April 30, 2012, 01:32:11 PM »
Here is a post as an example of disrespect that is not warranted.  Many forums simply do not allow such behavior.

If Genesis is true . . .

You can Genesis on these nuts.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #172 on: April 30, 2012, 01:38:31 PM »
You have the option to report it if you believe it unwarranted.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #173 on: April 30, 2012, 01:41:47 PM »
Here is a post as an example of disrespect that is not warranted.  Many forums simply do not allow such behavior.


We do not at this time have a rule against being rude, per se, but you have a couple of options. 

First you could report the post.  There is a "Report" link in the bottom right corner of each post.  There might be a couple of ways in which it breaks the rules.  For starters, it is not exactly on topic and it does not actually contribute to the conversation.  Either reason could get the post removed.  You could argue it was trolling and the mods might agree.

Second, you could just ignore it since the post was not intended for anything other than lotandhisdaughters' own amusement.  Grow a thicker skin and move on.

Third, you could make a whiney post about it.

I recommend the first option, and if that fails, the second.  The third is the most popular choice, but not one I would ever recommend.  Whiney people garner no sympathy, only loathing and ridicule.

I hope that helps.


 
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