Author Topic: Being nice to theists  (Read 5696 times)

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Offline kymer

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #116 on: March 27, 2012, 11:31:45 AM »
Noted.

Offline Omen

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #117 on: March 27, 2012, 11:40:43 AM »
Noted.

Excellent!

Earlier you made claims about behavior towards ILY without citation or examples.  However, after examining basically a 100+ posts, including the one where ILY insists others are being 'hateful', not a single solitary person insults ILY or criticizes his character.

Can you point us towards what you claimed was a criticism of his character and not his views/claims?
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline HAL

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #118 on: March 27, 2012, 11:41:34 AM »
Not that I should even have to do this, but what the hell, HAL is going to start a thread just for me and ILY. It's going to be a lesson in diplomacy, so get your notebooks out.

I'm going to set it up now and invite ILOVEYOU. Bear in mind, we're not the least bit interested in you two talking about how to steam vegetables, what the weather was like this winter, or who makes the best sports car. You the atheist are going to talk with ILOVEYOU the theist about your beliefs regarding religion and god. You - The One - will show us all how to do it properly and diplomatically, and we will observe the results.

Offline kymer

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #119 on: March 27, 2012, 11:43:01 AM »
Omen, you mean you actually took the trouble to sift through over 100 posts? Where do you find the time?





Thanks HAL.

Offline Omen

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #120 on: March 27, 2012, 11:46:03 AM »
Omen, you mean you actually took the trouble to sift through over 100 posts?

It is called being intellectually honest and diplomatic.

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Where do you find the time

It took approximately 20 minutes.  However, you're the one that insisted that the community treated ILY in a certain way, without example.  Surely, you could just go and find us doing what you claim of us in such a generalized and insulting manner.  It should take you all of 2 or 3 minutes to do.

Why is it that your ability to instantly recall what you claim of us.. stops the second you have to go and find what you claim of us?
« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 11:49:15 AM by Omen »
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline kymer

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #121 on: March 27, 2012, 11:47:36 AM »
HAL, will ILY be allowed to "preach" during our debate?

Offline HAL

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #122 on: March 27, 2012, 11:52:39 AM »
HAL, will ILY be allowed to "preach" during our debate?

Yep, you deal with it as The One sees fit.

Invitations sent.

Offline Seppuku

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #123 on: March 27, 2012, 12:00:51 PM »
I think the two of you should agree on a topic, perhaps something you both feel confident discussing. Obviously related to theism/atheism/maybe Christianity
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Offline kymer

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #124 on: March 27, 2012, 12:07:38 PM »
Yes Seppuku. I'd like to start it off with a brief casual chat and let the best topic establish itself naturally, however I'd like it to be quite fluid and not just about one thing.

Offline Omen

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #125 on: March 27, 2012, 12:08:20 PM »
Yes Seppuku. I'd like to start it off with a brief casual chat and let the best topic establish itself naturally, however I'd like it to be quite fluid and not just about one thing.

So you're not actually going to debate anything.
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Online One Above All

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #126 on: March 27, 2012, 12:19:16 PM »
So you're not actually going to debate anything.

Was there ever any doubt?
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #127 on: March 27, 2012, 12:27:00 PM »
I'd like to hear what other people think "being nice" entails.

Online One Above All

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #128 on: March 27, 2012, 12:28:40 PM »
I'd like to hear what other people think "being nice" entails.

Being justifiably nice or just being nice?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Omen

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #129 on: March 27, 2012, 12:36:07 PM »
I'd like to hear what other people think "being nice" entails.

Supporting your arguments. ( If A = B, and B=C, then A=C )

Not using pleading dismissals. ( You're wrong because you don't accept jesus )

Answering questions openly and sincerely.

Providing clarification or evidence when asked.


You know, what most theist typically do not do.  It always surprises me that this simple list of requirements is in the words of most theist tantamount to 'hatred'.  I feel sort of like David Silverman looked when he was on the O'Reilly show and O'Reilly exclaimed,"Tide goes in, Tide goes out, You can't explain that!"
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Offline ungod

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #130 on: March 27, 2012, 12:38:52 PM »
I'd like to hear what other people think "being nice" entails.

Not snoring during the sermon.
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Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #131 on: March 27, 2012, 02:21:49 PM »
Lucifer:  If you prefer, define it both ways.  I don't quite understand the difference between them.

Omen:  Those are good points.  The reason I asked is because I considered the OP to be somewhat vague; it's easy to say "be nice", but not so easy to explain what being nice means.  Being sincere (which all of those lead to) is practically a requirement for being nice.

ungod:  That's an example of being nice, but it isn't very useful if you aren't in a church.

Offline kymer

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #132 on: March 27, 2012, 03:08:10 PM »
Jaimehlers, my definition of being nice is as follows :

Listening without judgement
Being polite
Showing understanding and empathy
Conceding where necessary

Things of that nature. These are pretty obvious though, to most people anyway.

Online One Above All

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #133 on: March 27, 2012, 03:15:00 PM »
Lucifer:  If you prefer, define it both ways.  I don't quite understand the difference between them.

Being justifiably nice is when you're having a civil discussion because both parties refrain from insults, mockery and general rudeness, as well as condescending behaviour, lying and general dishonesty.
Being nice is when you're being civil, even if the other person has spat in your face, stabbed you in the eye, kicked you in the balls and raped you.

The former is what we do. The latter is what kymer appears to want.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Omen

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #134 on: March 27, 2012, 03:24:31 PM »
Listening without judgement

This is an uninformative platitude.  You can't listen without the cognitive capacity to take that information, examine it, and arrive to a conclusion for it's meaning.

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Being polite

And that would be what?

So far you've insulted us, dodged questions about the hateful accusations you made of us, and generally dismissed any attempt to hold you accountable.  Is that what you mean by polite?

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Showing understanding and empathy

You mean like when you hatefully demonized and insulted atheist on this forum, by accusing them of doing something that they have not, is that what you believe empathy to be?

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Conceding where necessary

An example would be?

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These are pretty obvious though, to most people anyway.

Just not obvious enough for you to follow or to explain.   Why is it that you're complaining for being treated as you treat others?
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #135 on: March 27, 2012, 05:04:03 PM »
kymer:  If you applaud me, please do so for what I actually write.  I wasn't smited in this thread, so "countering an unjust smite" doesn't exactly make sense here.

As for your points, I would say that if "listening without judgment" means hearing them out without premature judgment (that is, you let them present their whole argument), then it makes sense.  But it's impossible to come to a conclusion about someone's argument without judging it.

Being polite goes without saying, but what do you mean by that?  Please be specific as to what goes into being polite.

Showing understanding and empathy also goes without saying.  But that has to go both ways for it to be effective.

And if "conceding when necessary" means to accept someone's argument if they've substantially backed it up, then again, it makes sense.

Lucifer:  Alright, I understand the difference now.  Thanks.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #136 on: March 27, 2012, 06:35:48 PM »
Jaimehlers, my definition of being nice is as follows :

Listening without judgement

Does this include sitting by passively while someone argue their point, using as a basis for their argument something that has no merit, no factual basis, no intersection with reality? When someone comes here and says they believe in god, I most certainly am going to judge them as religious, even though they have not yet gone to the trouble of defining their custom version of the concept. If someone comes here and starts using big words but clearly has no idea what they are talking about, I am going to judge them.

I am more than happy to listen to someone I disagree with so long as they are making a concerted effort to make sense of their POV and answering questions to the best of their ability. And though different members here have different levels of tolerance for various forms of religious foolishness (and don't ask us to unjudge the folly of religion), so different folks get different strokes, so to speak, as atheists here reach their limits at different times. Sadly, the first some, first serve nature of a forum means that sometimes I'm still in the mood to be civil but others have already gone off one some poor sap who keeps insisting jc loves us or that we're going to hell or that faith is obvious. Other times I imagine I go off first on folks when I am the first to have a chance to respond to some inane claim or ignored detail. I happen to wish that some of the atheists here could remain a little calmer for a little longer, but I have no justification or definable reason for asking such a thing, and hence I guess I don't bother. I do think that attacking a person for their beliefs, no matter how justified we are, only causes them to dig in and fight back harder. And once the crap starts flying, others fling it back and we all go into some deteriorated mode that accomplishes nothing, scares away newbies of both persuasions and in general feels foolish in hindsight. But that may just be me.

In a perfect world, those that get in some pissed off mode at any given member would just say "I'm pissed right now, so I'll just watch for awhile and see what others want to say" or something like that. Or that they would just leave the thread quietly. At least for awhile. Because once that point is reached in any conversation, whether it is the internet or real life, nothing is going to get accomplished.

Nobody can get pissed without expectations. It's impossible. And the more one creates expectations, the more one is likely to find reasons to get angry. Some of us have low expectations of theists and aren't the least bit surprised or even angry that they are going into faith mode, or hell mode, or you are a sinner mode. Others say enough is enough very easily, and hence, judgement occurs. Rather harsh judgement.

Of course it's fun to be able to anonymously beat the crap out of unsuspecting dupes, and I understand that. But I would think it would get tiring after awhile. But I'm old and tire easily. Maybe you young uns' don't have that problem.

Anyway, if what you mean by "judgement" is not expressing an opinion, then you're out of luck. If you mean not immediately condemning a person without asking them for clarification or supporting evidence, that might be okay. In the meantime, we all have to judge at some level. I don't think we have any other way of taking in information.

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Being polite

A two way street that requires extra effort from both parties when disagreements are being discussed. It means not only saying please and thank you, but responding to questions and requests for clarification. It involves doing your own frickin' research rather than ask question after question. It involves presenting arguments well and with supporting quotes, links and other backup. And if it is ones opinion, it involves stating it as clearly as you can, without making the assumption that the reader will be able to successfully read between the lines. Especially if it is a one line, smart assed assertion.

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Showing understanding and empathy

This is something we often try to show when in fact we are having to call our chiropractor as we type, because our neck hurts so bad from shaking our head in disbelief. If you are asking us to understand that someone may be a christian because they were raised that way and don't know any better, that't not asking too much. Unless that same person is showing no signs of doing anything but their gods work here, preaching like crazy and never responding to requests about the hows and whys and whos and other details. And empathy? That's too PC. How much empathy do you expect me or other atheists to have for a parent who harms their child under the guise of religion. Who molests young women under the guise of religion. Who pulls in cash by the millions by asking little old ladies living on pensions to send in just another ten or twenty dollars every month. How much empathy should I have for someone who hates gays or thinks only christian marriage is acceptable or who wants me to leave the country because I'm an atheist? Each of those thoughts is rampant in various religious groups, and other dastardly thoughts and activities occur that I haven't bothered mentioning. I don't mind showing a little understanding when I encounter someone who has been brainwashed, but I will not conjure up sympathy for someone who is brainwashing others.

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Conceding where necessary

There aren't too many places to concede in this world when it comes to religion vs. atheism. I can't say for sure that I know I am right, but I sure know that the religious are wrong. And for me to nod politely as genesis is explained as literal for the upteen millionth time, letting them think in the process that they might be making progress in converting  or convincing me, is lying. And I hear christians don't like that. At least they don't like others doing it.

As of this date I have not had my views of the universe or my take on god successfully called into question by any theist. Which sort of means that either their arguments are weak or I'm hard headed. But I know I'm not the latter because I am always reading, always exploring a variety of knowledge sources, always curious, always interested in this world, it's occupants, and the universe we inhabit. I love learning, I hate thinking I know it all, and if I am going to concede something, it probably has to involve more than petty opinions semi-formed by petty religious minds.

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Things of that nature. These are pretty obvious though, to most people anyway.

There are of course those of us who feel you have violated every item on this list in your short week on this site. Some think you are improving, others are either very against your being here or are at least wanting to wait a heck of a lot longer than a couple of days to see if you can improve your record and prove your sincerity. Some here think you are playing us for fools, while others think you just ran out of play-dough and needed something to do. You are clearly literate, but otherwise there is little clear about you, kymer. I for one have just stayed away from most of your posts as of late because that is easier than finding out if my laptop can really fly. I don't even check the site on my iPad because I know it will. You ability to make a list, however flawed, of civil things a person can do means that you understand that the concept exists. You still have a lot of proving to do, as far as I am concerned, before I will begin to suspect you yourself are capable of behaving a civilly as you demand we do.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #137 on: March 27, 2012, 08:09:59 PM »
Jaimehlers, my definition of being nice is as follows :

Listening without judgement
Being polite
Showing understanding and empathy
Conceding where necessary

Things of that nature. These are pretty obvious though, to most people anyway.

kymer, the first point (Listening without judgment) seems pretty iffy to me for respected discourse if the conversation entails the exchange of ideas and attempts at convergence to truth...or, at least, trying to figure out who's right (or closest to it).

If I'm going to have a polite conversation with someone on the merits of the idea that the cause of economic collapse in Zimbabwe was political instability, I would find it *incredibly* rude if the person I am conversing with listened to me without judging the veracity of my claims.  Really, the *opposite* of nice.  I'd go so far as to say it is insulting and demeaning actually.  Like being treated like a child.  It would be the equivalent of them putting his/her finger in his/her ear while I talked and then responding.

I think you mean 'Listening without judging facets of the individual unrelated to the topic or discourse at hand'.
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Offline kymer

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #138 on: March 28, 2012, 06:29:51 AM »
I meant listening without moral judgement.

Online One Above All

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #139 on: March 28, 2012, 06:58:18 AM »
I meant listening without moral judgement.

So listen like a deaf person. That's the only way you can "listen without moral judgement". If you listen to someone's ideas, you judge them. It's not possible to do otherwise unless you're not actually listening.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Seppuku

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #140 on: March 28, 2012, 07:12:02 AM »
And of course a person can convince you those judgements are wrong. Somebody says, "cows can speak English", I am going to make a judgement because I have my own opinion, I've never heard of cows attaining the language capacity to speak English and given their intelligence I'd find it very hard to believe. The judgement will be there, I might not say, "that's a lie!", I'd just say, "could you please back that up". Somebody shows me a scientific study and a video from a reputable source and I basically see proof that a talking cow exists, then I've changed my opinion and so I have a different judgement on the matter. Just because I've made a judgement doesn't mean I'm not listening nor does it mean I'm close minded. It just means I am able to engage with what somebody's saying. If I had NO judgement, I wouldn't have the scepticism to ask for backup.

Of course, people who we tend to find a problem here wouldn't back up the statement "cows can speak English", they'd just spend time making general statements about cows and English, keep trying to lead us on a trial of unsubstantial posts and constantly dodge any questions made about said talking cow. If provided with backup against their claim, for example somebody shows studies of a cows brain showing their cortex doesn't have the capacity to handle language as complex as English and that 'moo' is the extent of their vocabulary. The person would suggest this evidence is wrong, perhaps make an insulting or condescending remark, continue to dodge or just ignore the evidence altogether. They'd do what they could to not address point directly and do what the can to not support their own statements with any kind substance.

So they're going to have a hard time convincing us of anything. It's not our close mindedness if somebody can't engage us fairly.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2012, 07:13:36 AM by Seppuku »
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Offline HAL

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #141 on: March 28, 2012, 07:15:11 AM »
I meant listening without moral judgement.

Oh you mean like a psychologist?

We're not in that business.

Offline ungod

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #142 on: March 28, 2012, 07:37:19 AM »
When theologues look you in the face and tell you lies, they are expressing their contempt for you. e.g. In a recent posting, a beLIEver sated that God knows in advance every choice you're going to make, and then in the same breath, announced that God did not know what choices Adam and Eve would make.
It is the height of arrogance when holy deceivers expect, no, DEMAND that you respect them as they express their utter contempt for you.
Those of us who actually use our intelligence know that respect is earned, not given on demand.

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Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

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Offline kymer

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #143 on: March 28, 2012, 08:34:52 AM »
No, respect is assumed from the start. That's how people get on.

Offline Omen

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Re: Being nice to theists
« Reply #144 on: March 28, 2012, 08:38:08 AM »
No, respect is assumed from the start. That's how people get on.

Do you have any examples of anything you accused of the atheist on this forum?
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