Author Topic: War is Hell...  (Read 1418 times)

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Offline DVZ3

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War is Hell...
« on: March 22, 2012, 07:16:56 PM »

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/22/justice/afghanistan-bales-charges/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

This is one of those tragedies of war even if it's 'soft' war.  I say we let the word get out that we 'throw the book' at him to let the diplomacy take place and still have the 'trust' and confidence of our allies, foes and send the message that we're trying to do the right thing and not let American soldiers launch an unnecessary assault on innocent foreign civilians

This is tough, but we this unfortunately has to be handled delicately for the respect of our military and our country moving forward.  So even if we tell the press and announce to the 'world' that he will be charged with murders.... 'Secretly' let's get this American soldier the psychiatric help he needs and let him come home to any friends and family to live a 'normal' life. - Don
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 07:33:35 PM by DVZ3 »
Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Offline Frank

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Re: War is Hell...
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2012, 07:52:03 PM »
I see. Lets turn ourselves into a bunch of mealy mouthed liars who say one thing but do another. I'm sure that will definitely inspire confidence in Americas friends (although I doubt that America has any friends) and allies alike.
"Atheism is not a mission to convert the world. It only seems that way because when other religions fall away, atheism is what is left behind".

Offline DVZ3

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Re: War is Hell...
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2012, 08:07:26 PM »
Ok, Fuck'em..... Let's send the message that it's 'OK' to kill civillians then.  You're absolutely right!!!!!!!!!!!!!   :-\

P.S. Did you see what I did there?  Did you spend anytime overseas having to wear 80 lbs of gear, bullet proof vests, and seeing you buddy's get shot at?

Do you have any perspective whatsoever in war to talk about it!?  Let me know...............    now I'm curious......

Also, let me know how "letting American Soldiers kill innocent civilians is fine" in today's society?

"white lies" are told to other people to protect the other "bigger" good/morality.  Google it.....
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 08:16:04 PM by DVZ3 »
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Offline Historicity

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Re: War is Hell...
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2012, 08:39:18 PM »
Battle Hymn of Lt. Calley
(Tune: Battle Hymn of the Republic)

My name is William Calley, I'm a soldier of this land
I've tried to do my duty and to gain the upper hand,
But they've made me out a villain, they have stamped me with a brand
As we go marching on.   

I'm just another soldier from the shores of U.S.A,
Forgotten on a battlefield ten thousand miles away
While life goes on as usual from New York to Santa Fe
As we go marching on.   

I've seen my buddies ambushed on the left and on the right,
And their youthful bodies riddled by the bullets of the night
Where all the rules are broken and the only law is might
As we go marching on.   

While we're fighting in the jungles, they were marching in the street,
While we're dying in the rice fields they were helping our defeat
While we're facing V.C. bullets they were sounding a retreat
As we go marching on.   

With our sweat we took the bunkers, with our tears we took the plain,
With our blood we took the mountain and they gave it back again
Still all of us are soldiers we're too busy to complain
As we go marching on.   

When I reach my final campground in that land beyond the sun,
And the Great Commander asks me, "Did you fight or did you run?"
I'll stand both straight and tall, stripped of medals, rank and gun,
and this is what I'll say:

"Sir, I followed all my orders and I did the best I could;
It's hard to judge the enemy and hard to tell the good,
Yet there's not a man among us would not have understood.
As we go marching on.   

We took the jungle village exactly like they said,
We responded to their rifle fire with everything we had.
And when the smoke had cleared away a hundred souls lay dead.
As we go marching on.   

Sir, the soldier that's alive is the only one can fight,
There's no other way to wage a war when the only one in sight
That you're sure is not a V.C. is your buddy on your right.
As we go marching on.   

When all the wars are over and the battle's finally won,
Count me only as a soldier who never left his gun
With the right to serve my country as the only prize I've won.   
As we go marching on."


(For those of you too young to remember http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_lai.)
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 08:49:43 PM by Historicity »

Offline Dante

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Re: War is Hell...
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2012, 08:46:35 PM »
Don, would you the same reaction to a civilian shooting up a Ruby's cafeteria?

How about a failed suicide bomber?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline DVZ3

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Re: War is Hell...
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2012, 08:50:53 PM »

This is the confusion I have with political/social boudaries.   We have an army taught/trained/sacrificed/breed to protect a "Ruby's cafeteria" then and nothing more.... Thanks for proving my point Dante.

Let the killing and sacrafices begin! Where's my soup!?
Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Offline Dante

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Re: War is Hell...
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2012, 08:55:04 PM »
Those were yes or no questions, Don. Could you answer them please, and  perhaps explain your reasoning?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline DVZ3

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Re: War is Hell...
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2012, 08:58:12 PM »

I, "we" live in a country "Ruby Tuesdays" where 'we' try to proclaim that we are doing what we doing for our 'best interests'.  However, the killing of innocent civilians as horrible and tragic as it is......    How long did you serve Dante... and answer the question please sir!
Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Offline DVZ3

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Re: War is Hell...
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2012, 09:00:03 PM »

The reality is I'm not ready to 'torture' him for life for something he was presented with was hell!

"War is Hell" Dante.  But I'm glad you're ready to be sent anywhere told to.  Let me know how that works for you.
Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Offline Babdah

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Re: War is Hell...
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2012, 09:01:28 PM »
 I think that he needs help more so then punishment. To compare this to something like shooting at a restaurant is nowhere near the same, which is just lack of commonsense.  IMO, the world knows how America is why should we have to announce to the world about what we are doing with him, let it be between the two countries at hand.
“We live in an age disturbed, confused, bewildered, afraid of its own forces, in search not merely of its road but even of its direction

Offline Dante

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Re: War is Hell...
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2012, 09:03:29 PM »
I merely asked nuetral questions. I didn't take any position. You're projecting. Why is that?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline DVZ3

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Re: War is Hell...
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2012, 09:06:14 PM »

Because you answer and response so causually..... it's like your life is walking through flowers and pretty yellow daffodils.... I can't help but think you don't undertstand any freedoms you have.
Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Offline Nick

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Re: War is Hell...
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2012, 09:08:42 PM »
Bring our people home.  We are pissing on dead bodies, burning Korans, and killing women and children...for what?  This is nuts.  Bring our people home.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline Dante

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Re: War is Hell...
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2012, 09:10:20 PM »
I asked rationally and soberly. Unfortunately, you cannot answer my questions the same way I asked.

Shall I report you for dodging?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline DVZ3

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Re: War is Hell...
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2012, 09:11:17 PM »
Hey Dante, I realize we're mostly all atheists on this forum.  But when it comes to war, then a reality of 'hell' is presented whether you believe in it or not.  The fact that you can make judgment calls not having been presented upon a situation so easily and casually leads me to believe only one thing about you.  And I don't respect that and I'll leave it at there.

Now where's my waitor!?
Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Offline DVZ3

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Re: War is Hell...
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2012, 09:12:35 PM »
I asked rationally and soberly. Unfortunately, you cannot answer my questions the same way I asked.

Shall I report you for dodging?

What 'facts' do you have so far of the situation other than an American solidier went 'crazy' when presented with 'hell'?
Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Offline DVZ3

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Re: War is Hell...
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2012, 09:18:09 PM »
Shall I report you for dodging?

Go ahead, appeal to something that distracts if you wish.  If you want an 'etcha sketch' to distract politics too I can give you an etc...... err wait.... that's apprently already happening.
Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Offline Dante

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Re: War is Hell...
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2012, 09:21:05 PM »
I already did. Congrats.

Nowhere in my above posts did I make judgement calls. You did. I merely asked questions, which you've failed to answer.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline DVZ3

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Re: War is Hell...
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2012, 09:24:34 PM »
My answer 'was' in my 'oringinal' post Dante.  I know it may be tough to know where I stand but it should be pretty clear when 'presented with hell'.


Dante, can you telll me/us of the worst situation you have been in in life as far as danger, secruity of loved ones and friends, and to ultimately protect yourself in life?  Can you describe it in detail and why you acted as you did and why at the time and exactly what you were thinking please?  You never ansered any of my questions.
Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Offline Dante

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Re: War is Hell...
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2012, 09:36:53 PM »
My personal experiences are irrelevant to this discussion. But, I do take offense to you assuming you know anything about me. So you've got that going for you.

So, your position is that US soldiers should be excused for murdering civilians, without orders, and with explicit rules prohibiting it. Because war is hell.

The question I have is; How do you know a failed suicide bomber didnt go through hell? The restarant shooter? Or is your version of hell the be all, end all?

Don't you think all 3 of the perpetrators may have major mental issues of some sort? Why does one warrant helping, and the others do not?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline DVZ3

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Re: War is Hell...
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2012, 09:41:28 PM »
My personal experiences are irrelevant to this discussion. But, I do take offense to you assuming you know anything about me. So you've got that going for you.

So, your position is that US soldiers should be excused for murdering civilians, without orders, and with explicit rules prohibiting it. Because war is hell.

The question I have is; How do you know a failed suicide bomber didnt go through hell? The restarant shooter? Or is your version of hell the be all, end all?

Don't you think all 3 of the perpetrators may have major mental issues of some sort? Why does one warrant helping, and the others do not?

Because these murdered civlivlians actually 'made headlines' and now the whole war/position is at stake potetially with our allies/foes because of it.

My position is based on 'circumstance' and nothing else.  Yes we have to prevent this from happening but this is a reality of war.  This SHIT happens and has happened but 'THIS MADE HEADLINES'..... Don't you get it.  Go back and read my oringinal post without the "I post drunk" blinders on and then maybe you'll get it.

Posted soberly,
Don
Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Offline DVZ3

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Re: War is Hell...
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2012, 09:47:02 PM »

The question I have is; How do you know a failed suicide bomber didnt go through hell? The restarant shooter? Or is your version of hell the be all, end all?

 Oh nevermind I see.  I live in America where 'we' are the only resturaunt in town.  I didn' realize you were 'ok' with other people loving the 'Al Qaeda Gardens' restaurant.
Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Offline Dante

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Re: War is Hell...
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2012, 09:52:13 PM »
You've still failed to answer a single question I've asked, because, methinks, you're posting emotionally and not rationally. It happens.

I'm out. Peace.

Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline DVZ3

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Re: War is Hell...
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2012, 09:59:21 PM »
Read the rest of "The inferno" Dante and maybe you'll understand.  You're basing you're decision too much on logic which has failed your 'Rubey Tuesday' Country and now you all will be overtaken by KFC  ;).

Let me know then when our world 'operates' on 'logic' and I will answer you 'specific' questions in life.

War..... 'Reality out',
Don
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 10:00:59 PM by DVZ3 »
Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Offline Frank

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Re: War is Hell...
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2012, 10:31:15 PM »
I think that he needs help more so then punishment. To compare this to something like shooting at a restaurant is nowhere near the same, which is just lack of commonsense.  IMO, the world knows how America is why should we have to announce to the world about what we are doing with him, let it be between the two countries at hand.

I think he needs punishment and it's only the fact that I'm opposed to capital punishment that stops me advocating it. He killed 16 people including 9 children. Do you think he shot the children first in front of their parents or maybe the parents in front of their children. If any other nationality had done this you would want their blood. Well this time an American did it and the afghans and a whole lot of other people want his and I can't say as I blame them. "war is hell" my arse, It was premeditated murder.
"Atheism is not a mission to convert the world. It only seems that way because when other religions fall away, atheism is what is left behind".

Offline ungod

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Re: War is Hell...
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2012, 10:31:48 PM »
Bring our people home.  We are pissing on dead bodies, burning Korans, and killing women and children...for what?  This is nuts.  Bring our people home.

But, but...we've got a poppy crop to protect! And our good friend Karzai.
Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

"What good fortune for those in power that people do not think." - Hitler

Offline Dante

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Re: War is Hell...
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2012, 11:28:07 PM »
Tell you what, Don. How about I read the rest of "Inferno"(assuming I havent) right after you read your own fucking thread, hmmmkay?

I've yet to disagree with you. I've yet to take a position. I've simply asked a few questions. Yet you assume you know my position, and my life experiences.

If this is you sober, I bet you're reeeeal rational when you're drunk.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline DVZ3

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Re: War is Hell...
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2012, 06:31:43 AM »
Don, would you the same reaction to a civilian shooting up a Ruby's cafeteria?

How about a failed suicide bomber?

Of course these don't compare Dante and you understand this right...?

An American Solidier killed innocent people during his call of duty.  Having said that I don't think he deserves to be 'charged with murder' for 17 people like the scum of any ordinary city street. Soldiers are put in a situation of circumstances that your everyday person doesn't have to do, see, witness, or have any responsibility for an outcome. I also don't think he just should go 'free'.  Just as I mentioned he needs phsyciatric help.  But more importantly, having said all that, he's only human put in a situation of hell on earth where acting 'normal' isn't as easy as sitting comfortably on your computer chair screaming for capitol punishment or life in prison.

All this was pretty much implied by my very first post.  ;)  You honestly think this solidier who served many tours of duty now only deserves life in prison?  That doesn't sound rational whatsoever! And that's the position you're implying unless your just being difficult on purpose; read below...


If this is you sober, I bet you're reeeeal rational when you're drunk.

And thanks for throwing this in my face all the time so flippantly.  You must be christian.  The world is also black and white to you.... You certainly 'must' be christian.  :-\
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 06:43:48 AM by DVZ3 »
Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Offline Dante

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Re: War is Hell...
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2012, 06:51:18 AM »
Don, would you the same reaction to a civilian shooting up a Ruby's cafeteria?

How about a failed suicide bomber?

Of course these don't compare Dante and you understand this right...?

Why not? How do you know? Is the wartime duty of a soldier the only version of hell?

Quote
An American Solidier killed innocent people during his call of duty.  Having said that I don't think he deserves to be 'charged with murder' for 17 people like the scum of any ordinary city street.

And this is where YOU were making the judgement calls, not I.

Quote
Soldiers are put in a situation of circumstances that your everyday person doesn't have to do, see, witness, or have any responsibility for an outcome. I also don't think he just should go 'free'.  Just as I mentioned he needs phsyciatric help.  But more importantly, having said all that, he's only human put in a situation of hell on earth where acting 'normal' isn't as easy as sitting comfortably on your computer chair screaming for capitol punishment or life in prison.

I dont disagree. Surprise, surprise.

Quote
All this was pretty much implied by my very first post.  ;)  You honestly think this solidier who served many tours of duty now only deserves life in prison?  That doesn't sound rational whatsoever! And that's the position you're implying unless your just being difficult on purpose; read below...

No, I didn't imply that. You projected that, because you made the judgement that a deranged shooter, or a failed suicide bomber is in no position, apparently, to receive any sort of psychiatric help. That THEY should just be locked away for life in prison for their deeds. It's YOUR double standard.

Quote

If this is you sober, I bet you're reeeeal rational when you're drunk.

And thanks for throwing this in my face all the time so flippantly.  You must be christian.  The world is also black and white to you.... You certainly 'must' be christian.  :-\

No, I'm a drinker.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 06:55:43 AM by Dante »
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.