Author Topic: Christianity not violent?  (Read 3513 times)

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Offline Whateverman

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #87 on: April 22, 2012, 10:26:00 AM »
you cannot blame christian for those event
You're wrong.  For every "corrupt pope", there were hundreds if not thousands of well-meaning Christians who did what he said.
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Offline zen_livin

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #88 on: April 22, 2012, 07:16:58 PM »
after read all comment
i admit it i was wrong.. in my country Christians fellow is not big enough so they don't show yet their big "fang"
they just money oriented religion....
i think if a country lead by religion that's make a religion more violent .....
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Offline jeremy0

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #89 on: April 22, 2012, 10:08:59 PM »
I want to see the data correlating violence to religious people vs. non-religious people, let alone christians.  Let's see if this has already been done somewhere..

Here's one:  1/3 muslims think it's ok to kill someone..
http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/world-news/europe/uk-poll-reveals-worrying-statistics-on-religious-violence-1441904.html

..and..
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... It was determined that, overall, the religious correlates of domestic violence displayed coefficients equal or higher than coefficients for known non-religious factors in the two regions studied.
..from http://www.ideajournal.com/articles.php?id=47  very detailed study and information..

Seems to me we should study this further..  however, wikipedia again sets the bar for informative debate..
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Throughout history, certain teachings from the Old Testament, the New Testament and Christian theology have been used to justify the use of force against heretics, sinners and external enemies.
Critics claim that all religions harm society:[11][page needed][12][page needed]

    Religions sometimes use war, violence, and terrorism to promote their religious goals
    Religious leaders contribute to secular wars and terrorism by endorsing or supporting the violence
    Religious fervor is exploited by secular leaders to support war and terrorism
    Promotes exclusivism that inevitably fosters violence against those that are considered outsiders.[13]
    Recent secularism frees religious members from having to make practical, moral choices. Limiting violence may no longer be an essential principal, since religion is no longer in charge.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_violence

According to this, I would say that there is not conclusive enough evidence to point to whether Christians are non-violent by any further measure than any other group of people, whether Muslim, Mormon, or whatever.  People are violent because humans have a long-standing history of violent behavior.  Nothing further than that..  However, throughout history, some form of religion has been behind a multitude of wars..
« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 10:10:43 PM by jeremy0 »
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Offline kn0808

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #90 on: April 30, 2012, 11:16:54 PM »
Quote
You won't win the argument.

They will just claim that the Christian religion is not violent, it's the people who misuse power or are corrupted who act in the name of Christianity, who were violent. They will make this distinction and you won't gain any traction at all.

Hal is right. There is no point arguing that Christianity is violent because the Biblical message is not one of violence but one of God's love. While God did command his people to annihilate entire tribes of people during the conquests of the Promised Land, those were special circumstances that are not prescriptive as repeatable. Even then, this evidence points to God's justice for his people and not to the violent nature of the people. The New Testament certainly does not give any hint at teaching violence. All in all, Christianity as a whole cannot be judged because of the imperfect people who hold to the teachings because Christianity cannot be accused of teaching violence. While there have been people who act violently declaring they are doing it in the name of Christianity, ultimately, they cannot be because there are no teachings of ongoing prescibed violence in the Bible.

Even if Christianity could be described as violent, Atheists should not be the first people to point fingers. Anybody remember what Stalin or Mao did?

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #91 on: April 30, 2012, 11:20:47 PM »
Quote
You won't win the argument.

They will just claim that the Christian religion is not violent, it's the people who misuse power or are corrupted who act in the name of Christianity, who were violent. They will make this distinction and you won't gain any traction at all.

Hal is right. There is no point arguing that Christianity is violent because the Biblical message is not one of violence but one of God's love. While God did command his people to annihilate entire tribes of people during the conquests of the Promised Land, those were special circumstances that are not prescriptive as repeatable. Even then, this evidence points to God's justice for his people and not to the violent nature of the people. The New Testament certainly does not give any hint at teaching violence. All in all, Christianity as a whole cannot be judged because of the imperfect people who hold to the teachings because Christianity cannot be accused of teaching violence. While there have been people who act violently declaring they are doing it in the name of Christianity, ultimately, they cannot be because there are no teachings of ongoing prescibed violence in the Bible.

Even if Christianity could be described as violent, Atheists should not be the first people to point fingers. Anybody remember what Stalin or Mao did?

Unless of course you are a fig tree. Then all bets are off.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #92 on: April 30, 2012, 11:28:05 PM »
Even if Christianity could be described as violent, Atheists should not be the first people to point fingers. Anybody remember what Stalin or Mao did?

I do actually. I also recall that nothing they did had to do with them being atheists. They were atheists yes, but nothing they did had to do with atheism.

This is a very old, very tired, very pitiful, and long debunked argument. If this is all you've got then if it's ok with you I'm just going to skip the part where I pretend to take you seriously and consider you a full-on moron right now. Which I think can be reasonably supported by the rest of your post. If you absolutely feel that you must waste my time with your stupidity please do me a favour and at least try to make it interesting. We've had too many boring idiots lately, it would be nice to have an entertaining one for a while.
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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #93 on: April 30, 2012, 11:30:27 PM »
Even if Christianity could be described as violent, Atheists should not be the first people to point fingers. Anybody remember what Stalin or Mao did?

You should also be a little embarrassed that you have to use such extreme examples to make your side look at least a little bit good. That is like saying that your farts aren't all that bad when compared to that bean eating elephant over there.
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Online screwtape

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #94 on: May 01, 2012, 06:38:15 AM »
... the Biblical message is not one of violence but one of God's love.

Oh please.  That is one itty, bitty message amongst about 20, and one that appears rather late in the game. It only gets play because that is what people want - a loving god.  In most cases, a loving god is something you have to project into the stories, because it isn't there, particularly in the OT.

Genesis never talks about how yhwh loved adam and Eve.  It never talks about how yhwh loved abraham or jacob.  It never talks about how yhwh loved moses or the hebrews.  It always talks about their covenant, their contract, their deal.  And by they way, it is a contract yhwh has no qualms about breaking.  Ask Job's first family about that.

While God did command his people to annihilate entire tribes of people during the conquests of the Promised Land, those were special circumstances that are not prescriptive as repeatable. Even then, this evidence points to God's justice for his people and not to the violent nature of the people.

Are you willing to cut mohammed's boys the same kind of slack?

The New Testament certainly does not give any hint at teaching violence.

Only if you don't count that assault on the money lenders and the whole "you must hate your family" thing.  And the whole revenge fantasy called "Revelation", wherein jesus H comes back, murders everyone on the planet who does not worship him, and sends them to eternal torture.  Nah.  Not violent at all.

All in all, Christianity as a whole cannot be judged because of the imperfect people who hold to the teachings because Christianity cannot be accused of teaching violence.

I somewhat agree.  Essentially you are saying your particular flavor of xianity is The Right flavor and all those violent xians are doing it wrong.  It sounds nice, your flavor of xianity.  It sounds like a flavor I would agree with.  But what is to say your flavor is actually The Right one?

You see, as I said already, xianity has lots of messages.  Some of them are constructive, others not, and there are conflicts.   So nobody can follow all of the messages because they necessarily have to make choices. So the flavor of xianity a person subscribes to is one that matches his or her personality.  Thus, I call them "flavors".  And I do not see how your flavor is any more justifiable than any other. 

And again, are you willing to give mohammed's boys the same benefit of the doubt? 

Even if Christianity could be described as violent, Atheists should not be the first people to point fingers. Anybody remember what Stalin or Mao did?

People take actions based on the beliefs they hold.  A man will go to the hospital when he's sick because his actual belief is god will not heal him, but a doctor will.  xians have killed people because of beliefs they have which are tied to xianity.  I agree, those beliefs may not be strictly scriptural or necessarily condoned by xian teaching.  But they are beliefs they hold and justify because of xianity.  For example, Scott Roeder murdered Dr Tiller because of his xian beliefs.  I know xianity does not come right out and say "kill abortion doctors".  But it was Roeder's xian beliefs that caused his actions.  So, from that persepctive, it might not be xianity that teaches violence, but it is xianity that is responsible for it.

So, you need to understand that our one thing in common here - atheism - is the rejection of the claim that gods exist.  That's it. 

Now, go ahead and make your case.  In what way is the rejection of claims that gods exist responsible for whatever it is you think Stalin and Mao did? 


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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #95 on: May 01, 2012, 07:24:54 AM »
So the flavor of xianity a person subscribes to is one that matches his or her personality.

Indeed.  Reminds me of a couple of my favourite quotes:


Isn't it ironic? One of the favorite themes of the Christian Conversion Corps is that, if we don't worship a deity, we must be worshiping ourselves.  Yet it seems that this is precisely what, in fact, the theists themselves are doing.  They worship a god with the same views, ideals, even personality traits as themselves - the god in the mirror.  (Rosa Williams)

Generally speaking, people who claim to possess a living, interactive relationship with Christ tend to have a relationship with a Jesus Christ who thinks very much as they do, and who shares their likes, dislikes and prejudices.  (Therion Ware)
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #96 on: May 01, 2012, 08:47:52 AM »

Hal is right. There is no point arguing that Christianity is violent because the Biblical message is not one of violence but one of God's love.

Luke 24:26
Dt 13:6-106(yes one hundred passages of hate)
Mark 6:11
Cor 11:6
Leviticus 20:13
Psalm 14
Dt 20:10-14
Genisis 19:24-26
Exodus 11:04
Exodus 7:5, 17
Exodus 10:02
Numbers 1:51, 3:10, 3:38
Numbers 11:1-2
Numbers 14:18
Numbers 14:43-45
Numbers 16:28-35
Numbers 17:12-13
Numbers 33:50-52
Dt 2:14-16
Dt 2:25
Dt 3:3-6
2Kings: 1:9-12
Dt 4:3
Dt 7:10
Dt 22:22
Dt 25:1-3
Dt 28:20
Joshua 6:17
Joshua 9:21-27
Judges 1:4
Judges 4:15-16
Judges 11:29-39
Judges 12:06
Judges 14:04
1 Samuel 2:06, 25
1 Samuel 15: 18-19 (Particularly good in that God is upset that people aren't hating others sufficiently for his desire)

And I can provide at least a hundred more. How many "special exceptions" to the message of love are there?, Because it seems that there's a message of wanton hate, injustice, and brutality on every other page.





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Offline velkyn

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #97 on: May 01, 2012, 09:32:21 AM »
Hal is right. There is no point arguing that Christianity is violent because the Biblical message is not one of violence but one of God's love. While God did command his people to annihilate entire tribes of people during the conquests of the Promised Land, those were special circumstances that are not prescriptive as repeatable.
more magic decoder ring. 
Quote
Even then, this evidence points to God's justice for his people and not to the violent nature of the people. The New Testament certainly does not give any hint at teaching violence.
ignorance of your own bible.  How not suprising.  LEt's see, Luke 19 where JC demands that anyone who doesn't accept him as king be murdered.  And oooh, love that Revelation. 

Quote
All in all, Christianity as a whole cannot be judged because of the imperfect people who hold to the teachings because Christianity cannot be accused of teaching violence. While there have been people who act violently declaring they are doing it in the name of Christianity, ultimately, they cannot be because there are no teachings of ongoing prescibed violence in the Bible.
  Poor poor Christian god, can't do anything can it?  All of the stories how it stood up to those who blasphemed and killed them and now, nothing.  Nice modern excuse there, Kn. 

Quote
Even if Christianity could be described as violent, Atheists should not be the first people to point fingers. Anybody remember what Stalin or Mao did?
Oh those two megalomaniacs?  yep.   Please do show that their atheism had anythign to do with this.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #98 on: May 02, 2012, 11:25:04 AM »
Hal is right. There is no point arguing that Christianity is violent because the Biblical message is not one of violence but one of God's love. While God did command his people to annihilate entire tribes of people during the conquests of the Promised Land, those were special circumstances that are not prescriptive as repeatable. Even then, this evidence points to God's justice for his people and not to the violent nature of the people. The New Testament certainly does not give any hint at teaching violence. All in all, Christianity as a whole cannot be judged because of the imperfect people who hold to the teachings because Christianity cannot be accused of teaching violence. While there have been people who act violently declaring they are doing it in the name of Christianity, ultimately, they cannot be because there are no teachings of ongoing prescibed violence in the Bible.

Even if Christianity could be described as violent, Atheists should not be the first people to point fingers. Anybody remember what Stalin or Mao did?
Easy to say.  Much tougher to prove.

First off, what makes you think that those are special circumstances that won't be repeated?  If God commanded it (or rather, if people believed God commanded it), do you truly think Christians would shy that much from repeating history?  And as for justice, the conquest of Canaan was no more just than the Mongol conquests, or any other nomadic tribes that rampaged through civilization throughout history.  Or the conquest of one nation by another, for that matter.  Justice is not served by wars of conquest and annihilation.

Second, the fact that the Bible serves as a record of numerous atrocities completely belies your argument about Christianity not teaching violence.  Or do you truly think that people would not use those as justifications for committing further atrocities if they felt God wanted them to?  What that smacks of is "do as I say, not as I do".  And as usual, nobody pays much attention to the former when the latter differs from it.  What does it matter if the Bible doesn't supposedly command Christians to be violent when it holds countless examples of such violence being sanctioned by God?

And as for the last, please.  Do you seriously think any of the atheists here approve of those atrocities?  You can be sure that virtually everyone here will condemn those actions just as severely as they condemn religious atrocities of any stripe.  And that is really the point.  You seem to think that if a Christian commits an atrocity, that he isn't really a Christian, and that therefore Christianity isn't at fault.  That kind of propagandist sophistry fools no-one.

The fact is that Christianity contains much violence within it, regardless of what you think it teaches.  And you will not change that by blinkering your vision and pretending that Christianity can't be held accountable for the actions of individual Christians.  Like it or not, it is the actions of individual Christians which add up to form the whole of Christianity.  Certainly, there are good actions by individual Christians as well as bad actions, but bad actions always outweigh good ones.  One "aw crap" moment can easily wipe out ten "attaboys".

Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #99 on: May 02, 2012, 11:37:48 AM »
...and you will not change that by blinkering your vision and pretending that Christianity can't be held accountable for the actions of individual Christians.  Like it or not, it is the actions of individual Christians which add up to form the whole of Christianity.  Certainly, there are good actions by individual Christians as well as bad actions, but bad actions always outweigh good ones.  One "aw crap" moment can easily wipe out ten "attaboys".

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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #100 on: May 02, 2012, 01:29:33 PM »
"No individual raindrop ever considers itself responsible for the flood."
Sad but true.  However, the last straw wouldn't matter without all the other straws that came before it.

Offline Barcode

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #101 on: May 02, 2012, 02:05:15 PM »
Just remember folks, people don't kill people, guns kill people!
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #102 on: May 02, 2012, 02:19:25 PM »
Just remember folks, people don't kill people, guns kill people!

and Trolls don't further conversations.
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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #103 on: May 03, 2012, 03:51:08 PM »
Barcode was a sock. It is now banned.
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.