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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #58 on: March 31, 2012, 04:10:43 PM »
My point is saying one has read the bible or was brought up Christian and then found it not valid is not much of a defense.  I was using my personal experience as an example to the contrary.  "Fluff"... :)  I can certainly say the same is true with your responses.

If you will not accept his personal experience as a valid defense of his position, then please understand that it would be severely hypocritical of you to expect us to accept yours.  When you say things like 'I can't explain it' or 'I don't have all the answers' then please understand that really all you are giving us is fluff.  It's not evidence of anything. 

When we say that the bible is not valid, we can back that up with reasoned, rational responses.  It's very easy.  From tales of people rising from the dead 3 days later, to living in fish for days, to walking on water, to turning water to wine, to all the dead rising out of their graves, it would be difficult to know where to start.  If you read those types of things in ANY other book, you would immediately reject them as fiction. 

You make a good point about questioning my readings as being one-sided.  I've read probably close to 100 books in 2 to 2.5 years...most are on the side of God.  However, some of these are philosophy which we can learn from great minds who have tackled the important questions.

Christian philosophers I bet.  People all saying 'It all can't come from nothing' and 'Life couldn't be so complex as to have started without God.' right?  Also, we don't actually learn anything out of philosophy.  It's people asking questions for which there aren't any real answers, and expecting to find the truth without evidence.  I'm sorry, but most of it is pretty useless. 

Some are on theology,

The study of making sense out of the nonsensical and unproven. 

yes I did try to read "god is not great" by the late C. Hitchens.  I found myself making notes in every paragraph's margin of Hitchens' book, and I concluded he was a smart man but he let some early experiences in his life jade his views eventually he shut down to trying to truly understand Christianity. That's just my opinion.  I've listened to debates and constantly listen to Catholic radio where atheist callers challenge the guests regularly.  I've read some of the threads on this very forum and many of the responses to my posts here.  So, I think that I've considered the opposite point of view to a point.   

So you've read 100 books and one of them was from an atheist and you only got through a little bit of it.  So 99.5% of what you've read was religious in nature.  And you've listened to debates on Catholic radio where callers are most likely cut off before making their points and brow beaten to death by theology?

No, you haven't given the other side a chance.  Not even close, Badger.  Don't you think WE read apologist books while writing in the margins?  I had a medical doctor give me a book called "I'm glad you asked" and after I read it through one time, I decided to go through it again making notes along the way.  By the middle of the first chapter, I had 3 pages of notes.  I gave up a second reading and just passed him the book back. 

As for evidence, I will say you are avoiding the evidence stacked against you.  All of humanity has by far believed in a supreme being.

Several problems with this... 

First, no, not all.   

Second, all of humanity once believed the earth was flat and that it was the center of the universe.  How did that go for them? 

Third, I have to ask you, which one did they all agree upon? 

Like other areas of discussion, the proof usually lies with the minority. 

No, that's ridiculous.  The proof lies with the person making the positive claim for something.  Also, If you want to get technical, then YOU are in the minority.  There are more people in this world that do not believe in the Christian God than do.  So even though you were wrong with this premise to start with, you are still in the minority. 

You'd argue it is because of science and atheists being more enlightened than our ancestors.  I'd say science (particularly microbiology) has only proven more so that there must be a God and we are actually dumber than our ancestors because our society has pushed God out and is ignoring objective truth.

I don't even remotely see how you can argue that.  It's patently foolish to say it.   Microbiology explains why so many things happen naturally.  It makes God unnecessary as an explanatory factor, where once it was used to explain things.

But I can understand the anti-science rhetoric.  There is a growing trend of anti-science in the religious community; as if science is out to get you and can't be trusted.  Religious people are trying to vilify it because they're scared of what it's showing.  Every day, science pushes God further and further out as a necessary force.  Making it the enemy is a great tactic in trying to suppress the truth about God.  It's worked for centuries against the atheist community, it will probably work again with science.  Unless we stand up and fight against it, which we will. 

Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Badger347

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #59 on: March 31, 2012, 04:14:08 PM »
Once again, peace be with you.  I pray for all of you. 


Please don't pray for me. I find it rude for you to find the need to utter a single prayer on my behalf to your god. So please, leave me out of your prayers.

Quote
so be kind to this theist.  :) 

Welcome to the forum. Just a side note: be prepared to have your comments picked apart if you don't produce evidence. Also, we don't like to be preached at so if your comments come across as preachy you're in for a rough ride.

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Science and Religion can not contradict themselves and in fact go together.  Through science we can better know God.  .

Explain this in more detail please. In what way does science and religion not contradict itself.

There is something within science called the scientific method which preforms tests on observed events and phenomena. Through these tests the workings of  that event and phenomena are better known.

Religion, including yours, is based on a less than mediocre book. There is no evidence for anything that happened within your books pages.

I'd like to hear more how science and religion in fact go together. So please explain.


Thank you for your post.  I'm not upset with anything anyone has posted in response.  I hope you believe that.  I expect people to pick apart what I write.  If you didn't (and some are not), I would be frustrated.  For example, when someone writes something like... "oh...that's just fluff...you're just ignoring XYZ" in response to one of my responses that include a valid list of details and evidence, that is frustrating because that person has just shut down and has not attempted to refute a single thing I have said. 

Please realize when you slap a label on something as "preaching" that you are setting the rules arbitrarily in your favor for preaching should not be assumed to be empty and of no value.  Preaching often, not always, has deep meaning that we should seek to uncover.  Sorry...I'm preaching I guess.  No offense meant.

I actually have somewhat of a science background, believe it or not.  Your comment on the scientific method comes across as condescending to me.  I do not take offense though, just want to point out what others have pointed out to me regarding my own words.  Unintentional...really. 

My religion is based on Jesus Christ, who left us a Church founded on the apostle Peter.  The Church compiled the Bible (a bunch of books) based on certain criteria. I believe for different reasons, including a study of philosophy and yes science and reasoning.  As for just some of the "evidence" you seek...consider what you are asking for.  Can I do an experiment and produce God, no?  Neither can you do one and prove he does not exist for that would require that you be God and able to turn over every rock in the universe looking for him.  So, let's be reasonable here and do our best to weigh what we have.   I can not lay out a  complete argument here, according to the rules it would be somewhat off topic too, it has taken too many years for me to convenience myself and it is not reasonable to sum it up in one post. 

Consider just a few things though:

There are more copies of gospel manuscripts than any other ancient written record.   We're talking thousands.  There are also no creditable examples of refuting who Jesus was or the miracles he performed in and around his life time when it certainly was not popular to proclaim Jesus was the son of God (in fact most died horribly for doing this).  Why then would the apostles and many disciples proclaim Jesus as the son of God?  They certainly weren't going to gain power or wealth from doing it.  There is also archaeological evidence of many of the people, locations, and events mentioned in the Bible.  No...I'm not referring to Noah.  I'm referring mostly to those in the New Testament.  Also, consider the miracles that are unexplained by science.  I wouldn't suggest basing one's belief system on these alone but they are worth consideration.  Look at the incorruptible saints, the miracle of Lanciano, the miracle at Fatima, etc.  How does one explain 70,000 people seeing a miracle at the same time and place?  The scientists, religious and not religious, studying the Shroud of Turin is another interesting point of study.  The chief imaging specialist himself says the shroud is authentic and could not be reproduced by means available to its period.  The carbon dating debate has concluded with valid explanations in favor of this being the actual shroud that covered Jesus. 

There's more but...I've got to go now...my wife thinks I'm cheating on her online. LOL...not really but I've spent enough time on this computer today.  Take care, and I hope you do take time to look into some of the things I've mentioned.     



Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #60 on: March 31, 2012, 04:17:34 PM »
I haven't read all the responses, but I'd be surprised if no one has mentioned black / white relations in the US.  Slavery and the inferiority of the black race was justified Biblically, and there's no question this justification lead to violence.  FFS, we had a lynching as recently as the late 1960s.

O.K., your post is a good one.  Please show us where the Bible justified slavery and an inferiority of the black race.  Please make the connection between that and a real example of a lynching in the 1960s. 

I'll repeat my original post on the second greatest commandment: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 


---

Your comment about your parents claiming it's the people who are violent, not the religion...

If people are blamed for bad religious behavior, how do your parents reconcile this idea with the violence in the old Testament?  People clearly do not go around stoning non-virgin brides on their wedding night, despite the fact that God seems to have approved of this behavior...


I (not my parents) made a point early that there is a difference between what is "taught" and what people do, yes.  Again, the Old Testament (a collection of various books by different writers at different times for different audiences and purposes) must be seen through the lens of the New Testament and who Jesus Christ is.  Christians believe Jesus revealed much to us.  The Old Testament writings are difficult for us to read sometimes.  Please give actual books, chapters, and verses where you think God told people to stone a non-virgin bride and I'll try to look up an answer for us to discuss.  Notice I'm not promising I can answer this for you myself.  I honestly don't have all the answers but am willing to learn with you.
the NT a collection of various books by different writers at different times for different audiences and purposes the NT is difficult for us to read sometimes because it contradicts the OT and parts of the NT
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #61 on: March 31, 2012, 04:25:20 PM »
WE in the western hemishphere had no inclination on  God or Jesus myth ......until your ancestors took to killing us because we had things of value.

 Ever stop to ask yourself why Jesus never took off in China?,,,,maybe because they did the right thing by killing your parasite ancestors when they came around

 Wow 9 posts and you are already on the mod list,,,,has to be a record
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 04:36:18 PM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #62 on: March 31, 2012, 04:54:19 PM »


As for evidence, I will say you are avoiding the evidence stacked against you.
Fine, show it to us. Go on. Show it.


(1)Define God. Do not use weasel words or circular definitions.
(2)Prove that that definition is not a logical paradox
(3)Show proof that differs from the other ten thousand deities man
has worshiped, again without committing a logical error

Until you do those three things....your worship of that deity is the intellectual equivalent a gibbering tribal primitive bowing before their god, UGABUGA.



  All of humanity has by far believed in a supreme being.

Not only is this incorrect, it is an appeal to the masses. The bulk of humanity believed the Sun revolved around the earth too

  Only recently have a minority become more outspoken.  Like other areas of discussion, the proof usually lies with the minority.  You'd argue it is because of science and atheists being more enlightened than our ancestors. I'd say science (particularly microbiology) has only proven more so that there must be a God and we are actually dumber than our ancestors because our society has pushed God out and is ignoring objective truth.

Our ancestors practiced slavery, believed the sun revolved around the earth, didn't know microbes existed and believed disease was from an imbalance of bodily humors or earlier by evil spirits, they ate off of plates partially made of lead, though women were property, and considered the universe to be made out of four elements.

So yes, current times ARE more enlightened than our ancestors.

And if Microbiology is so indicative of God, why are so many microbiologists atheist?

And if your god was so objectively true, there wouldn't be all these bloody religions! IT WOULD BE OBJECTIVE!




An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #63 on: March 31, 2012, 05:02:52 PM »
(2)Prove that that definition is not a logical paradox

It is not possible to prove a negative (at least not this one). All that you can ask is that he thinks about his definition before posting it.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Offline Emily

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #64 on: March 31, 2012, 05:04:46 PM »

Thank you for your post.  I'm not upset with anything anyone has posted in response.  I hope you believe that.

I never said you were upset. I never even implied it.

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I actually have somewhat of a science background, believe it or not.  Your comment on the scientific method comes across as condescending to me.  I do not take offense though, just want to point out what others have pointed out to me regarding my own words.  Unintentional...really. 

In what way was my comment about the scientific method condescending towards you? I'm glad you have a bit of a scientific background. Based on your 'somewhat of a science background' then you could (hopefully) explain how

Science and Religion can not contradict themselves and in fact go together.  Through science we can better know God.  I'm sure this statement will inflame many here but there it is.


I simply want you to explain what you mean. How science and religion work together and how we know god through science. You can't just say "But there it is" and leave it at that. You need to explain how the two go hand-in-hand.

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As for just some of the "evidence" you seek...consider what you are asking for.  Can I do an experiment and produce God, no?  Neither can you do one and prove he does not exist for that would require that you be God and able to turn over every rock in the universe looking for him.  So, let's be reasonable here and do our best to weigh what we have.   I can not lay out a  complete argument here, according to the rules it would be somewhat off topic too, it has taken too many years for me to convenience myself and it is not reasonable to sum it up in one post. 

This has nothing to do with anything I asked in my comment to you. And I know that we cannot do any experiment and produce god. Based on the definition of god it's something supernatural and science deals with natural events. But based on your holy book's first chapter regarding creation and based on what science including big bang cosmology, cosmogony, geology, abiogenesis and biology  a much better and more realistic explanation as to how the universe, earth and live formed. And it's testable and verifiable.

The beginning chapter of genesis states that 'in the beginning god created the heavens and the earth', and well based on science that's wrong. Personally I believe that if the bible is wrong in on one point that it claims the entire bible can be tossed out as nonsense because the bible is supposed to be inerrant.

And it may be off topic, but you are the one who claimed that science and religion work together. I just wanted you to explain this in more detail.

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There are more copies of gospel manuscripts than any other ancient written record.   We're talking thousands.

Doesn't mean a thing.

 
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There are also no creditable examples of refuting who Jesus was or the miracles he performed in and around his life time when it certainly was not popular to proclaim Jesus was the son of God (in fact most died horribly for doing this).

There is also no evidence to support that jesus existed. Many claim that Josephus mentioned jesus, but his mention is widely considered to be a forgery by Eusebius in the fourth century.

The gospels were written decades after jesus supposedly did all these cool things. I'm curious as to why. Why weren't the written at the time they were happening. It can be argued that the apostle were illiterate; it's possible they were. But at the time of his life there were scholars and scribes that make no mention of jesus' work.

 
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Why then would the apostles and many disciples proclaim Jesus as the son of God?  They certainly weren't going to gain power or wealth from doing it.

Cause they were dummies.

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  There is also archaeological evidence of many of the people, locations, and events mentioned in the Bible.  No...I'm not referring to Noah.  I'm referring mostly to those in the New Testament.

OK, such as.

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  Also, consider the miracles that are unexplained by science.

Ok, such as.

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the miracle at Fatima, etc.

Sun phenomena. read about it here. 

 
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The scientists, religious and not religious, studying the Shroud of Turin is another interesting point of study.  The chief imaging specialist himself says the shroud is authentic and could not be reproduced by means available to its period.  The carbon dating debate has concluded with valid explanations in favor of this being the actual shroud that covered Jesus. 

The actual shroud that covered Jesus? What does that even mean. Without DNA testing on Jesus' body it cannot be proven that this fabric covered jesus. All it shows is that this fabric was around at the same time that people believe jesus walked the earth, and nothing more. Carbon dating in no was can pin-point who wore this fabric without actual DNA from that persons body.

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #65 on: March 31, 2012, 05:04:54 PM »
Quote from: badger347
There are more copies of gospel manuscripts than any other ancient written record.   We're talking thousands. ([1]) There are also no creditable examples of refuting who Jesus was or the miracles he performed in and around his life time when it certainly was not popular to proclaim Jesus was the son of God (in fact most died horribly for doing this).  Why then would the apostles and many disciples proclaim Jesus as the son of God?  They certainly weren't going to gain power or wealth from doing it.([2])  There is also archaeological evidence of many of the people, locations, and events mentioned in the Bible.  No...I'm not referring to Noah.  I'm referring mostly to those in the New Testament.([3]) Also, consider the miracles that are unexplained by science.  I wouldn't suggest basing one's belief system on these alone but they are worth consideration. ([4])  Look at the incorruptible saints, the miracle of Lanciano, the miracle at Fatima, etc.  How does one explain 70,000 people seeing a miracle at the same time and place?([5]) The scientists, religious and not religious, studying the Shroud of Turin is another interesting point of study.  The chief imaging specialist himself says the shroud is authentic and could not be reproduced by means available to its period.  The carbon dating debate has concluded with valid explanations in favor of this being the actual shroud that covered Jesus.([6])
 1. Copies being the operative word!
 2. http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,13232.msg294482.html#msg294482
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,13232.msg294484.html#msg294484
 3. Irrelevant! New York exists, it doesn't mean Spiderman does!
The British Queen exists, but James Bond doesn't, "Yet" according to all the books he works for her!
 4.  Atheist don't have a belief system, only a knowledge base, a huge difference!
 5. The Emperor’s New Clothes!
 6. Do you really want to go there, are you really serious, surely not!
(note the numbers in your post above, are my replies to your mistakes) I'm sorry but I don't know where you’re getting your information, but you are wrong on all counts, it surprises me that somebody could be so ignorant.

Oh and don't pray or wish us well, it is patronising and rude.
Praying for a person is intimating that there is something inherently wrong with them, which there isn't. So don't do it.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 06:21:06 PM by bertatberts »
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Offline Poseidon

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #66 on: March 31, 2012, 05:57:27 PM »
The original post was about christian violence....or not.  I'm thinking of poor William Tyndale. in 1526 he translated the bible into english. He was summarily executed by the force of the church hierarchy for having the temerity to make the then accepted version of the bible accessible to the english speaking people who could read. Would you call that violent? Explanation: In that time period the people were forbidden to read the bible. That was a a privelege accorded to the clergy and only the clergy. Does that sound like a sneaky way to control the common people under penalty of consignment to hell?

Then there was Joan of Arc, a woman of god, who was burned at stake and Jaques DeMolay along with Guy De Auverne, knights templar, whose fate lay with the inquisitors. "Jaques DeMolay the jibbet and the stake shall be thine within the hour". So much for those French christian activists. The Salem witch trials and subsequent burning at stake was not an act of violence...right?  The christian bible made slavery a most acceptable way of doing business. Disabodient slaves were beaten or killed according to the instructions in the bible. Is that alright with good christians? Was that violence or mere expediency?

There are orders of magnitude of incidences of christian cruelty and destruction, a sufficiency of it described in the KJV. Well maybe the KJV has not been our most reliable source of information and instruction. Perish the thought. Every christian knows it as the inviolable word of god.  But wait, The KJZ was written and then modified capiciosly by a committee of bishops and clergy who deleted and inserted passages and facts to suit themselves. Add dishonesty and collusion to violence! In fact the act of editorializing the bible was an act of personal violence because it did not honestly deliver what is so widely accepted as that which god hath instructed.

'Scuse me, I am on a rant........

Offline Historicity

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #67 on: March 31, 2012, 06:32:18 PM »
There are more copies of gospel manuscripts than any other ancient written record.   We're talking thousands.

I've seen that meme before.  I've followed the people who've said it and they only say the Josh McDowell said it was over 20,000.  Since none of his disciples can say how he got it, he probably has never said.  I'm guessing that the trick is to date any manuscript -- that is everything up the invention (in Europe) of the printing press as "ancient".

The "ancient world" ends with the Fall of Rome.  The widely used date is 476 CE when OdoacerWiki, the German general in Rome, dismissed the newly appointed boy emperor and declared himself king of Italy.  Some people date it as late as the death of Justinian in 565 CE since Justinian was the last Latin speaking emperor in Constantinople.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Testament_uncials

Note that the "books" of the Bible were originally books.  They were bound separately.  Later the Gospels would be bound into one volume and the Pauline writings into another and suchlike arrangements.

UNDATABLE
    Small fragment with a few verses of Matthew

1st CENTURY MANUSCRIPTS   
      0  (nothing)

2nd CENTURY MANUSCRIPTS
      1   FRAGMENTS: Acts

3rd CENTURY MANUSCRIPTS
      5   FRAGMENTS:  John, Romans, Matthew, Luke
           COMPLETE: Diatessaron[1]

4th CENTURY MANUSCRIPTS (when Christianity was legalized)
     24   FRAGMENTS: Acts, Matthew, Revelations, Galatians, Luke, Corinthians, Peter
           COMPLETE:  Mark, 2 Gospels, 2 Paul, 3 Acts, Revelations.
 
5th CENTURY MANUSCRIPTS (Last century of Western Empire. Athanasius and Jerome. Fourth Council of Carthage codifies Bible)
     58   FRAGMENTS:  47 fragments
            COMPLETE:   11 books covering NT several times.
============================================================
     88 ancient manuscripts, about 19 complete, none of them a complete NT.

Don't like the Wickedpedia?[2]  There's this:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09627a.htm
Quote
There are, according to the latest authority on this subject, von Soden ("Die Schriften des N.T. in ihrer ältesten erreichbaren Textgestalt", Berlin, 1902), 2328 New Testament manuscripts extant. Only about 40 contain, either entire or in part, all the books of the New Testament.

Scanning down their page this means any hand copied part of the Bible up till the printing press.  It may explain McDowell's number, 2300 + tack a zero on it.
 1. A blending of the Gospels into a single book removing contradictions
 2. I saw that coining on some evangelical site.  I think it was in a forum of the Discovery Institute.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 08:30:21 PM by Historicity »

Offline Whateverman

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #68 on: March 31, 2012, 07:23:42 PM »
Here's the thing:

If I compare Islam (the culture, religion and religious text) to Christianity, I find it to be more violent than Christianity.  Indeed, Christians get indignant when their religion is accused of it, whereupon they point to Islam and exclaim "WTF mate?!?".

The problem is that these Christians claim Christianity isn't violent - and that is simply a lie; whether one religion is worse than another isn't really the point.
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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #69 on: March 31, 2012, 07:38:47 PM »
Don't know if this has been offered yet:

http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm
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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #70 on: April 01, 2012, 01:04:55 AM »
I think you are ignoring a fine response and mocking me in the process.  You are proving my point on arrogance.

First, I will note that I was in a bit of a hurry at the time, and didn't really put in a proper respond.

Second, the explaination given does nothing to address the issue.  It simply states "I don't understand, but trust god anyway".  If killing doesn't deters you, what would?  You imply that you're a bit bothered by it, but not enough to question the whole thing.  What would?  What would make you think "hey wait a minute, something's fishy here"?


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Sure. This verse is part of a section where the disciples are asking Jesus to explain a parable, the parable is the weeds among the wheat.  Parables are very interesting.  In the parable, Jesus is warning believers and non-believers not to try and anticipate the final judgement of God when it comes to excluding sinners from the kingdom.  The judgement of God alone will eliminate the sinful, until then there must be patience and preaching of repentance.  Jesus' explanation to his disciples, which includes what you site, emphasizes the fearful end of the wicked. 

We (all of us) need to be mindful of not taking one verse out of context.  This verse is explaining what will happen after God's judgement of the actions we take under our own free will. 


How does the statement about the angels "throwing them" into the fiery furnace fit into all this?



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Again, you ignore a perfectly good statement and prove my point on arrogance.  Have you nothing more to defend your point of view with than this?  If you don't, I'm going to stop answering you because you are not open to anything. 


To give a more through respond.

1) Source?

2) Shouldn't the fact that this has been going on for at least 60 years concern you?  That means the church hid it for that long at least.

3) Someone being dead does not mean the issue should not be brought up, or that it's not an issue anymore

4) Source?

5) Even if that is true, it does not change that this is a severe problem with the catholic church.  The church is suppose to have the divine backing of god himself.  Yet, they continue to try and cover it up.

6) This is a case of trying to poison the well.  The molesters being homosexuals is irrelevant to the issue. (would it be "more" or "less" wrong if they were targeting little girls?)
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #71 on: April 01, 2012, 05:50:32 AM »
Badger, your God, as defined by the Bible, has been conclusively disproven.

No creating the world in six days.
No Adam and Eve.
No great flood.
No ark.
No exodus.

None of that happened, and those are just a few examples off the top of my head. Not only is there absolutely no evidence to support these stories, but there is a hell of a lot of solid evidence against them.

This reminds me of when I was about 8 and realized that Santa Claus wasn't real. My classmates kept trying to convince me that he was. They were so sure that they were right. Once you learn the truth you instantly see how ridiculous the story is and you really wonder how you ever believed it in the first place.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline Emily

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #72 on: April 01, 2012, 06:18:40 AM »
This reminds me of when I was about 8 and realized that Santa Claus wasn't real. My classmates kept trying to convince me that he was. They were so sure that they were right.

What's the passage from the bible.

Oh yeah, 1 Corinthians 13:11

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

This passage is pretty relevant. Paul claims to have given up childish thinking and things when he became a man. Grown up christians should perhaps do the same thing and stop believing in childish things. At one point I bet you believed in Santa and the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny, but at some point in your life you stopped believing in those things. All of them have the similar qualities that your god has. They don't have the accomplishments that your god claims, but they do have their similarities in how they act within our world.

There is an interesting parallel between Santa Claus and jesus. They both have the same qualities such as: watching others from afar[1], Santa knows if we've been bad of good[2],working outside of time[3], and well, neither has been actually seen (such Santa has been 'seen' at the mall and jesus has been 'seen' in toast but those are impostors)

There is no evidence for Santa and his cool flying sleigh led by eight magical reindeer. There is no evidence for jesus and his awesome miracles proclaimed by his 12 apostles, and there is no evidence for yhwh and what his followers declare as 'awesome' works that are described in a binding of 66 less-than-mediocre and factually inaccurate books.

You see badger, when it comes to your god we have this holy book that is supposed to describe all the cool things your god has done. His very first cool thing, and perhaps his greatest accomplishment, creation, has been shown to be completely inaccurate with what reliable (scientific) research has shown us. Based on this it's a fair wager to bet that your god isn't real. And while you claim we cannot disprove he exists, we can look at the evidence that contradicts your gods work and safely conclude it's just as man-made as the thousands of other gods that existed before and after it.

-M
 1. Santa sees us when we're sleeping and knows when we're awake.
 2. jesus finds us all 'bad' and thinks we all need his forgiveness.
 3. how can Santa deliver presents to billions of children in one night
« Last Edit: April 01, 2012, 06:22:47 AM by Emily »
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Offline ungod

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #73 on: April 01, 2012, 07:09:35 AM »
Badger, your God, as defined by the Bible, has been conclusively disproven.

No creating the world in six days.
No Adam and Eve.
No great flood.
No ark.
No exodus.

None of that happened, and those are just a few examples off the top of my head. Not only is there absolutely no evidence to support these stories, but there is a hell of a lot of solid evidence against them.

The sociopaths who rule us do their best to instill belief in the God con. Almost all of them publicly profess their devotion, and many claim to be in office because it is "God's will".
They have given us the "freedom" to have our minds enslaved, claim "one nation under God, put "In God We Trust" on our currency, elevate "men of the cloth" to the status of moral compass. The preachers constantly remind us "God wants you to...." and of God's omnipotence and omniprescence, and claim to receive messages from God.

However, the legal system provides PROOF that it's all bullcrap. That's right - just commit a crime, and, as a defence, claim that God wanted you to do it, or God told you to do it, or you were just following God's plan, and see if government really backs up and believes the lies they and their henchmen tell you!
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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #74 on: April 01, 2012, 09:35:57 AM »
Hi Badger347

My green text indicates I am acting in my role as a moderator and not a participant in the discussion.


The moderator asks that I not "preach."  I respect this request but find it hard to understand.  First, determining what is preaching and what is not is somewhat subjective.

Here is Screwtape's Guide on what is or is not preaching:
Preaching is...
- making claims with no attempt to support them with facts or explanations
- not responding to questions, or responding with more unsupported claims
- a one-way expression, not a two-way conversation

Quoting holy texts is not necessarily preaching and depends on the context.


Something that sounds like "preaching" might in fact be a perfectly valid view with "evidence" behind it, but it requires one to think about its meaning to understand.

I would agree.  It is each member's responsibility to provide that evidence and help those with whom he or she is communicating to understand the meaning.

I find it odd that this "preaching" ...

Discussing moderation and rules is not permitted in the forum.  If you have questions or problems, you may discuss it with staff through Private Messaging.  The Forum is not about the Forum.


The fact God can not be disproved because it would require one to be God to do this, which science can not do.  This is the domain of philosophy, not science.     

If you are making testable claims about your god, then it is the domain of science.

I honestly want to read all of your responses and reply with only kindness.  However, there are too many posts,

We understand it can be overwhelming.  Take your time. As long as you put forth an effort, we will be patient.

I do not have all the answers, I'm only human and might use words others find offensive (that is not my intent), and the rules make it difficult to reply. 

The rules should not make explaining your position difficult.  PM a staff member if you have questions about them.

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Offline velkyn

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #75 on: April 02, 2012, 09:50:40 AM »
Your responses are interesting.  I posted with kindness and intent of demonstrating a Christians point of view.  My hope is you see this and ask meaningful questions as to why I might state something. Some of you have done this.  Others simply are intent on tearing down my point of view. The moderator asks that I not "preach."  I respect this request but find it hard to understand.  First, determining what is preaching and what is not is somewhat subjective.  Something that sounds like "preaching" might in fact be a perfectly valid view with "evidence" behind it, but it requires one to think about its meaning to understand.  I find it odd that this "preaching" rule is in place while people are aloud to simply assert their own negative feelings towards someone else, without evidence of why they feel the way they do, simply because it is a Christian one.  Apparently, it is acceptable simply to preach God does not exist as a valid reason to respond.  The fact God can not be disproved because it would require one to be God to do this, which science can not do.  This is the domain of philosophy, not science.
  You have no evidence at all. You have baseless claims that your religion is the only “right” one and that no other religion is.  Until you support your claims, you are just one more delusion human being.  And I’m more than happy to give you the reasons why I find Christians be willfully ignorant people and that their religion is a lie that does little but harm to humanity.  It’s because it does.  We have Christians who all piously prate on how true their words are but who attack people who have the same ridiculous myths.  Wars have been fought over such nonsense, people burnt at the stake, etc. 

And I can show that the bible god doesn’t exist.  WE have no evidence for it and *if* it is as described accurately in the bible, we should.  Now, if you want to claim some vague god that does nothing, that is hiding under a rock on a planet circuling Zeta Reticuli, then that’s not the god you worship is it?  See, I don’t have to be a god at all.     
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I honestly want to read all of your responses and reply with only kindness.  However, there are too many posts, I do not have all the answers, I'm only human and might use words others find offensive (that is not my intent), and the rules make it difficult to reply.  I will try as time allows, unless of course the moderator deems my responses as too "preachy" and I get removed or blocked.
Hilarious that you are one more Christian who wants to tell us thatyou know all about your god, but when asked hard querstions, ooooh, you suddenly back off and are “Shocked, shocked” that we would demand that you actually show you have any answers at all.  All I can see is one more Christian, that in his ignorance, didn’t even think that someone would question his claims.  Did your god not have your back and didn’t make us agree with you so you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, all “right”?  I see no interest in kindness, only in external validation, so you get affirmed that your nonsense is right.  Well, you won’t find that here.  You will always be asked to show how your god exists, show that other gods dont’ exist and to show why Christians should be believed at all.
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In the meantime, I will pray to God for souls I believe are in the dark.  This is a way of saying I believe in a good and personal God, who loves and listens to his creature, man, and who wants all to believe in him.  This statement is evidence of the good Christianity "teaches" people, like me.  This is directly addressing the original post regarding Christianity and violence.  If you don't believe in God, fine, then my comment on praying for you shouldn't offend you because it means nothing.
  So you’ve prayed.  I’ve had many Christians pray for the exact same thing, that I become a Christian. And they’ve all evidently failed miserably since I’m still not one.  So why did they fail, Badger?  Why have *you* failed?  You want to claim that your god will listen to you and make me what you want me to be.  And I find that so pathetically selfish and arrogant.  It’s even funnier when you fail.  So, what’s your excuse, Badger?  Why didn’t your god obey you and brainwash me?  Is it not in his magical “plan”?  Does he like atheists who use their brains and not like Christians who presume to tell him what he should do?  If your god was actually as described, praying to it is utterly worthless.  If it’s omniscient and omnipotent, it already knows everything, including why I’m an atheist and could show me evidence that it exists that I would believe since it can supposedly do *anything*.  I still wouldn’t worship such a heinous petty violent deity that is presented in your bible, since I’m better than it is and I’m just a puny human. 

I see your other posts
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As for evidence, I will say you are avoiding the evidence stacked against you.  All of humanity has by far believed in a supreme being.
  And of course you can’t show that your particular deity even exists.  So, by your own argument, it could be Vishnu, Tezcatlipoca, etc.  Or, and this is what the evidence supports, humans simply like to think that events must have “reasons” and that would require a powerful being that is like them but can do magical things.  You lie that microbiology has proven that there is a god but of course cannot show one bit of evidence. 
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There are more copies of gospel manuscripts than any other ancient written record.
  And more lies.  It’s also pretty funny because just because books are in print, that means they are true?  Why the Scientologists must be catching up to you in “Truthiness”.  When they get more, does that automatically make them the new only true religion?  Your apostles and magical man/god can’t even be shown to exist at all.  No evidence that has a man gathering a legion’s worth of people in an occupied land, no evidence for any of the bible’s essential events.  May as well belive in Islam since it makes ridiculous claims too, and you, dear Badger, can’t show that Mohammed didn’t’ ride to Jerusalem on a heavenly horse.  No evidence for your supposed miracles too.  It’s so sad to see someone like you make such bald lies and be too ignorant of other religions to realize that they make the same claims as yours.  Oh, but since you don’t need to believe them, they can’t possibly be true.  I also love how ignorant Christians like you will attack the science you don’t like but oooooh, if you think it confirms what you want, then it’s just peachy keen.  What a hypocrite you all are.  Oh and no, carbon dating does *not* support the lie that it is the burial cloth of Jesus.  And of course, you try to claim that since there is archaeological evidence that matches a tiny fraction of the bible, golly it must be true.  Well, then Badger, the Greek pantheon must be as real as your god too since we have Athens, the city that Athena and Poseidon contested over.  We have the cities in Egypt where the gods of that civilization really did visit honest &)  You haven’t actually thought about any of this it seems, only parroting the lies told to you by other Christians.  And that’s sad. 
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Offline Badger347

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #76 on: April 06, 2012, 11:26:51 PM »
Hello everyone. I hope you are well. 

I apologize for not being here to respond lately.  I've been enjoying services during holy week and very busy.  I would like to invite each of you to Easter vigil mass at your local Catholic church.  Please don't cast aside this invitation too quickly.  This is, in my opinion, a beautiful ceremony and quite on the topic of peace.  Attend with an open mind.  Kindly ask questions of someone in the pew.  They might not know the answers but you never know.  My feeling is you'll see this IS a peaceful experience. 

Once again, may the peace of the Lord be with each of you. 

Badger

Offline Ice Monkey

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #77 on: April 06, 2012, 11:46:36 PM »
Hello everyone. I hope you are well. 

I apologize for not being here to respond lately.  I've been enjoying services during holy week and very busy.  I would like to invite each of you to Easter vigil mass at your local Catholic church.  Please don't cast aside this invitation too quickly.  This is, in my opinion, a beautiful ceremony and quite on the topic of peace.  Attend with an open mind.  Kindly ask questions of someone in the pew.  They might not know the answers but you never know.  My feeling is you'll see this IS a peaceful experience. 

Once again, may the peace of the Lord be with each of you. 

Badger

No.[/Lemon Pledge Lady Voice]

« Last Edit: April 06, 2012, 11:49:08 PM by Ice Monkey »
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Offline Badger347

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #78 on: April 07, 2012, 08:43:52 AM »
Good morning.  I just wanted  to make sure everyone knew I wasn't dismissing what they've taken the time to write. I've just been busy. Please realize by not addressing something, I'm not trying to be rude and I've not conceded anything. 

BTW, Easter Vigil is Saturday evening not the day of...just wanted to make that clear. 

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #79 on: April 07, 2012, 09:00:08 AM »
I like how zombie jesus is like a reverse zombie. Instead of eating human flesh, the lore says people are to eat him.

I don't know. If zombie jesus came a calling, I think I'd just put two slugs in his head to make sure. You can't be too careful with zombies.

Some kids on my block like to play a game called "zombie". It's like tag, but only one person is "not it" and the rest are zombies. Do they ever get into character! It's very amusing, and I like that they are getting out to get some excersize. You'd think the "human" child actually believed his life was in danger from the "zombies"

Maybe adults getting out to play pretend about zombies can be a healthy thing in some ways too, like anime conventions and the like.
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #80 on: April 07, 2012, 05:01:58 PM »
I don't know. If zombie jesus came a calling, I think I'd just put two slugs in his head to make sure. You can't be too careful with zombies.


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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #81 on: April 07, 2012, 05:03:34 PM »
I don't know. If zombie jesus came a calling, I think I'd just put two slugs in his head to make sure. You can't be too careful with zombies.


Rule #2 - Double Tap

With Jesus that should be a quadruple tap. He is the son of YHWH, after all.
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We choose our own gods.

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Offline velkyn

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #82 on: April 09, 2012, 09:35:23 AM »
Badger, I was once in Spain during “holy week”.  Quite an event with the incense everywhere, the carrying of the idols through the streets by guys who look like colorful Klansmen, and the bullfight I saw on Easter Sunday (one of the matadors got gored through the crotch). 

I can pretty much guarantee that no Christian, or Catholic has the answers to my questions. They don’t here so why should they have it in their church?  Seems that their god never tries to actually answer things and has some of the most ignorant (willfully or not) people believing  in it.   

You keep trying to claim that anyone who dares disagree with you doesn’t have an open mind.  I’ve attended many services in many kinds of churches and ceremonies in other religions with an open mind.  And they all fail, just like your religion has.  Your feelings mean nothing.  All the easter vigil has is that your god needed to have a violent murder done for it so it could “forgive” what it either intentionally allowed to happen or was too stupid and that “snake” got in.  It’s the preening and waving of a religious sect that claims their god is so concerned with humanity but when it comes to its own priests raping children, this god does nothing.  Christianity, and Catholicism shows itself to be violent again and again. I’m sure you’ll try to claim “free will” but funny how your god never is interested in that when not convenient for you.     
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Offline zen_livin

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #83 on: April 22, 2012, 07:42:57 AM »
well well i think we out of topic
i want to help TS to show how bad Christianity but they are not violent like Islam did
so maybe Christianity is not violent ....
they just ignorant, annoying and money oriented

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Try religion

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #84 on: April 22, 2012, 07:45:59 AM »
i want to help TS to show how bad Christianity but they are not violent like Islam did

I don't even know what this means. Like Islam did? Or like Islam is? If it's the former, you're not making any sense. Did what? If it's the latter, you're just wrong. Dark ages, Crusades, Holocaust - all Christianity.
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Offline zen_livin

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #85 on: April 22, 2012, 08:31:11 AM »
i want to help TS to show how bad Christianity but they are not violent like Islam did

I don't even know what this means. Like Islam did? Or like Islam is? If it's the former, you're not making any sense. Did what? If it's the latter, you're just wrong. Dark ages, Crusades, Holocaust - all Christianity.

Dear Lucifer
you cannot blame christian for those event
Dark Ages -  Corruption pope
Crusader - England want Jerusalem
Holocaust - Hitler want eliminate Jews
your example is just like bad thing happen in christian country
all religion country have a dark history
my example christian not violent like Islam did is:
you can make cartoon of Jesus and make fun of him but nothing gonna kill you
but just try make cartoon of Muhammad and put your name as author .... i dare you....
see my point ?
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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #86 on: April 22, 2012, 10:18:12 AM »

Dark Ages -  Corruption pope
Crusader - England want Jerusalem
Holocaust - Hitler want eliminate Jews
your example is just like bad thing happen in christian country
all religion country have a dark history


All of you examples from the corrupt Pope, the Crusade, the Holocaust were implemented by Christians and some of the major reasons they did so was based on their leaders using their Christian values to inspire them to do their bidding.

Yes I can blame Christianity, and easily so.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.