Christianity not violent?

[Badger347]

Once again, peace be with you.  I pray for all of you. 

Don't let pride and arrogance in.  I'm just a humble servant of God, with little understanding, so be kind to this theist.   

You all have similarities in your responses.  You can not win with errors due to your own misunderstandings about what you are citing.  The error is in you and not the truth.  Kymer understands the distinction being made between human behavior (fallen) and what is truth. 

Joeblowers...we are all harmful.  The Catholic Church "teaches" life is a precious gift and that faith and reason go together.  Science and Religion can not contradict themselves and in fact go together.  Through science we can better know God.  I'm sure this statement will inflame many here but there it is.  Seek to understand it.  Read Humanae Vitae (Latin Of Human Life) written by Pope Paul VI and FIDES ET RATIO (Faith and Reason) by Pope John Paul II as starting points.  Christ died for all BTW.

Seppuku...we live in a fallen world and yes the Bible speaks of this.  Read the New Testament and then look at the Old Testament through the lens of Christ and his mercy.  Look at the crucified Christ and understand He has found happiness there because He loves you.  On the surface, you are probably thinking I'm nuts, but if you seek to understand the sacrifice He has made you will begin to see.  Start listening to Gods call, my words...no one's words can make you truly understand...but when you do, MAN O MAN watch out because it is awesome! 

Omen...a sign...I wonder why you choose that user name.  God gave us his Son, which man destroyed out of evil, and left us a Church which then compiled the Bible for all and continues to speak the truth about God being pure goodness in the face of evil.  Lurther responded to real issues in the Church during his time.  Unfortunately, the response, intended or not, caused a rejection that ultimately leads to confusion and atheism.  This does not change the message of objective truth God has revealed to us. 

Historicity...unfortunately, I love pasta...it shows too.    You immediate make the error of associating politics to my values.  Politics come and go and change values.  Only yesterday Democrats were those fighting for life.  Realize anyone can call themselves something but what they are is a totally different story sometimes.  Ultimately, examples mean nothing unless you understand what was happening and is actually taught.  Listen to Catholic radio...call them with your point and ask them to explain it. 

Hatter23...anyone can take quotes out of context and make them sound bad.  St. Augustine is a gift but you can't pick up his works and read them like a magazine. It takes time and willingness to understand what he is saying.  The same goes for Aquinas and many others.  Egocentricity is difficult to recognize.  St. Therese de Lisieux is a wonderful saint to reference here.
"“May today there be peace within.

May you trust God that you are exactly where you are meant to be.

May you not forget the infinite possibilities that are born of faith.

May you use those gifts that you have received, and pass on the love that has been given to you.

May you be content knowing you are a child of God.

Let this presence settle into your bones, and allow your soul the freedom to sing, dance, praise and love.

It is there for each and every one of us.”
? St. Thérèse de Lisieux

My intention is not to insult anyone with any of my words.  I intend to come across as helpful and humble, so I apologize if I do not.  The Saints are roll models for us.  Realize it takes effort to understand their writings (yes, do your own reading or "thinking" rather) and realize those that interpret the saints for us can fail us. 

I have to go...but will try to return.

[JeffPT]

My dear Badger 347.

I also intend to be helpful to you in return.  God is not real.  Everything you said about the bible and scripture and all that... is nonsense.  You are trapped in a giant lie, and everyone you've ever known that has told you that God is real, is also trapped in that same giant lie.  The bible is not a reliable document in any way, shape or form.  It's very sad to see that you have been brainwashed so badly, and I hope you someday see your way out of it.  Try not to feel too bad, however, as you have much in common with millions of other people in thousands of other religions that are also trapped by lies that everyone they know is also trapped in.

You have a great day now. 

Thanks. 

[velkyn]

Once again, peace be with you.  I pray for all of you.

pray for what, may I asked.  EDIT: Praying for people to be brainwashed isn't nice at all.     

Don't let pride and arrogance in.  I'm just a humble servant of God, with little understanding, so be kind to this theist. 

  Ah false humility. always good.

You all have similarities in your responses.  You can not win with errors due to your own misunderstandings about what you are citing.  The error is in you and not the truth.  Kymer understands the distinction being made between human behavior (fallen) and what is truth.

Hi Kymer.   

The Catholic church teachs that one should obey the Catholic Church.  As always each sect is sure that they and they alone have what their god “really meant”.  Science has demonstrated that the bible is wrong many many times.  Your popes are humans and have not shown they have any magical knowledge. 

The world is not fallen.  The bible makes claims of many events and they have nothing to support that they happened.  We may as well believe that Athena and Poseidon really did contest over who could name Athens.

Badger, you seem to miss the fact that many of us were Christians.  And we know your nonsense to be what it is very personally. You also use the tired old claim that you know what your god really meant and you pick and choose what you like from your bible and your “church fathers” and your saints.

There is no reason to trust your god for many reasons, a big one that his followers are so inept.  There is no evidence for your god, that your bible says anything special or that prayers work at all.  Your god is depicted as a vicious primitive Bronze age deity, no different from Ares or Odin or Tezcatlipoca.

You come across as the usual theist who thinks they know magical secrets but of course can’t show evidence for a single one.  Muslim, Christian, Evangelist Catholic, Mormon, you are all the same.

[Historicity]

Historicity...unfortunately, I love pasta...it shows too.    You immediate make the error of associating politics to my values.  Politics come and go and change values.  Only yesterday Democrats were those fighting for life.  Realize anyone can call themselves something but what they are is a totally different story sometimes.  Ultimately, examples mean nothing unless you understand what was happening and is actually taught.  Listen to Catholic radio...call them with your point and ask them to explain it.

This has no possible relation to what I said.

You're an idiot.

[Nick]

Democrates are still fighting for life.  It seems the republicans on the Supreme Court have other ideas.

[Zankuu]

Don't let pride and arrogance in.  I'm just a humble servant of God, with little understanding, so be kind to this theist. [...]

My intention is not to insult anyone with any of my words.  I intend to come across as helpful and humble, so I apologize if I do not.

I think you're off to a bad start. The tone and phrasing of your post indicates that you view yourself as righteous, helpful and wise, and all the atheists on the board as prideful, confused, and arrogant. Maybe you should try a posting style that isn't so haughty.

[Seppuku]

Hello Badger, welcome to these forums.

Seppuku...we live in a fallen world and yes the Bible speaks of this.  Read the New Testament and then look at the Old Testament through the lens of Christ and his mercy.  Look at the crucified Christ and understand He has found happiness there because He loves you.  On the surface, you are probably thinking I'm nuts, but if you seek to understand the sacrifice He has made you will begin to see.  Start listening to Gods call, my words...no one's words can make you truly understand...but when you do, MAN O MAN watch out because it is awesome! 

I thought the Old Testament was God's call. The Old Testament ask for a whole manner of cruelty for God's loyal servants to commit and God committed some of them himself in the OT.

And doesn't Jesus say he didn't come here to change God's law? To pass up a few Bible quotes from the New Testament:

Context: Introduction to the Sermon of the Mount (parts bolded)

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

16 “The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it. 17 It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture cameabout by the prophet’s own interpretation of things.  21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

And the most significant in my opinion:

16 Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me. 17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. 18 Whoever speaks on their own does so to gain personal glory, but he who seeks the glory of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him. 19 Has not Moses given you the law? Yet not one of you keeps the law. Why are you trying to kill me?”

Basically. Jesus didn't bring the law, Moses did. The law is the not interpretation of the prophets but is the word and command of God. Moses is responsible for 5 books of the Old Testament:
Genesis
Exodus
Leviticus
Deuteronomy
Numbers

So it is certain that these 5 books contain the law, according to the New Testaments. This is the reason I choose to refer to Old Testament quote from those five books, for example, my signature, all of my OT references are from the books of Moses.

Jesus may be merciful in the New Testament, but he validates the old laws, which are cruel and merciless. If anything all this suggests is that it is the peaceful who are fallen. It is those who do not murder non-believers, it is those who do not marry the non-married women they rape, it is those who do not murder homosexuals, it is those who do not murder adulterers and rape victims in towns but do not scream, people who let witches live and a nice long list of things Christians don't do that the Moses' laws tell them.

Once again, peace be with you.  I pray for all of you. 

Don't let pride and arrogance in.  I'm just a humble servant of God, with little understanding, so be kind to this theist.

Just a few things.

Telling an atheist that you're going to pray for them can be pretty insulting. Whilst in Christian circles it is a kind thing, because you're wishing for good things to happen. Maybe you'll pray for them to return home safely from a war. When you say it to an atheist you're condescending to them, in this context you're basically saying, "your views are wrong, ours are right and I hope something you don't believe in will cure you of this ill thought". It is belittling to what people think. And then Christians who come here wonder why people tell them they're delusional and feel belittled by it. Generally they're doing the same thing, particularly with the phrase, "I will pray for you".


As for pride and arrogance. The first thing you shouldn't do here is assume anything about anybody - it's an easy way to get their backs up. Generally when I first engage a theist I don't first assume they're absolutely wrong and that I'm absolutely right, I allow them to try and convince me that they're right. I understand that I am a human being, I can misunderstand things, I might not see things in the right way and I perfectly capable of being wrong, but because countless people fail to convince me to join their side of things doesn't make me arrogant. In fact it's this attitude that made me into an atheist in the first place. Now, many theists who come here are arrogant, not all of them though - if you leave your convictions at the door and approach this forum with an open mind you may find people will get along with you.

If you're here to preach and assume everybody is wrong and come here to change their minds, then they're not going to respect you with any kind of open mindedness themselves.

As for pride...what pride? I usually leave that at the door, hence if anybody's able to show me if I'm wrong I'll admit it. I don't care too much about pride, it can be a mental block. Or at least in that context, but of course you can be proud of who you are, but that kind of pride isn't going to get in the way, for instance, I am sure you've got some pride in who you are?

[Hatter23]

Hatter23...anyone can take quotes out of context and make them sound bad. 

You can quote all the happy horecrap you want, but there is no "out of context" in my quotes. Saint Ambrose hated the Jews, Saint Augustine was anti-science, Saint Loyola though that loyalty to the church was more important than actual facts, and the papacy gave its stamp of tacit approval on slavery.

[ParkingPlaces]

Badger347

The green text means that I am speaking as a moderator. We have very definite rules against preaching and both of your posts were clearly in violation of those rules. You are  more than welcome to participate, but not if you preach at us. Please read our forum rules, which are here:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,21732.0.html

Failure to comply will lead to various levels of sanctioning. Up to and including being banned.

[fishjie]

Joeblowers...we are all harmful.  The Catholic Church "teaches" life is a precious gift and that faith and reason go together.  Science and Religion can not contradict themselves and in fact go together.  Through science we can better know God.  I'm sure this statement will inflame many here but there it is.  Seek to understand it.  Read Humanae Vitae (Latin Of Human Life) written by Pope Paul VI and FIDES ET RATIO (Faith and Reason) by Pope John Paul II as starting points.  Christ died for all BTW.

Wrong faith and science are diametrically opposed.   



see how faith does not question and chooses to believe and ignores all contradicting evidence whereas science continues to re-evaluate its beliefs and seeks to further understand the world?    faith gives you the answers and tells you to accept them, science asks the questions and tries to form answers based on evidence.   

[Frank]

Do you think Pan and South America converted to christianity peacefully? Show them this.

http://freetruth.50webs.org/A4a.htm

[Emily]

Once again, peace be with you.  I pray for all of you. 

Please don't pray for me. I find it rude for you to find the need to utter a single prayer on my behalf to your god. So please, leave me out of your prayers.

so be kind to this theist.   

Welcome to the forum. Just a side note: be prepared to have your comments picked apart if you don't produce evidence. Also, we don't like to be preached at so if your comments come across as preachy you're in for a rough ride.

Science and Religion can not contradict themselves and in fact go together.  Through science we can better know God.  .

Explain this in more detail please. In what way does science and religion not contradict itself.

There is something within science called the scientific method which preforms tests on observed events and phenomena. Through these tests the workings of  that event and phenomena are better known.

Religion, including yours, is based on a less than mediocre book. There is no evidence for anything that happened within your books pages.

I'd like to hear more how science and religion in fact go together. So please explain.

[Badger347]

You won't win the argument because the truth is Christianity's focus is love, both of God and neighbor.

Are we talking about the same god that killed millions of peoples in the bible?

If you're referring to the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc.  Yes, these are difficult things to accept.  I'm still working on it myself.  We've always been taught the ends do not justify the means.  However, I've found keeping an open mind and listening to those who study this stuff results in reasonable answers.  I can only offer a little and yes it involves faith, supported be reason though.  Ultimately, it gets back to whether you believe God exists or not.  If you do, God is infinite and we can not possibly understand him completely with our finite minds and somethings are a mystery.  We can understand that an infinite God is not bound by our limits.  To some degree we can understand what is revealed through Jesus, which is the lens we must use to interpret scripture.  The crucified Jesus is love.  This is something that needs a great deal of thought (meditation) and study to understand.  Not "preaching" here, just facts about trying to understand Christianity.

Whether you believe in Christ or not, Christianity "teaches" man has fallen and evil, in this case man acting without God, is the cause.  Jesus' Sermon on the Mount...Blessed are the "peacemakers" is probably the most famous reference to Christianity's teaching on peace.

Are we talking about the same christianity that states "worship Jesus, or suffer forever in hell"? 
If Jesus is God (which I believe but understand you do not), then he deserves our worship.  Evil is the absence of God. Hell is a word we use to describe a place people go to who have, under their own free will, rejected God.  The suffering is the lose of God.  Not "preaching" here, just facts about trying to understand Christianity.

Further Christianity is about respecting life.  Why do you think Catholics are so focused on teaching that contraception, abortion, and euthanasia are wrong.  All of these are classified as intrinsically evil acts because they are against life. 

Are we talking about the same catholics that likes to moleste little children?
I think it is safe to assume you are referring to the abuse cases brought against priests in recent years.  If you look at the US Conference of Catholic Bishops web site and read about this, you will find the complete story.  Most importantly, one abuse is a tragedy. This is acknowledged by the Bishops and should be by all Catholics and good people.  With this understood, realize the Church has taken great measures to respond to this and to prevent it in the future.  To judge better we must look at the facts though and compare.  There is plenty of information out there on all this but the basics are:
1. The media is attacking the Church and not reporting the facts correctly.
2. The number of validated cases is something like 6 spanning decades of reported abuse. 
3. Many reported cases go back decades and the priests are no longer alive to defend themselves. 
4. Organizations, like SNAP, are out for money and to harm the Church.
5. The public school system in the US has something like 200 validated cases per year and yet no one is bringing that up.  There are more validated cases recently in the Jewish community just with NY than all of the Catholic Church, yet no one is bringing that up.  You get my point, I hope. 
6. All of the priestly abuse cases are by males (obviously) and involving post-pubescent boys.  Interesting the media doesn't report this particular fact because that would mean we are in essence talking about homosexuality, which... well, that's another discussion. 

 

Look at what Christianity actually teaches with an open mind instead of attempting to draw faulty correlations from human behavior.  Unless you are a super genius, you'll have to turn to others to help you learn about it.  I suggest turning to some of the great Saints/minds of the past.

Many of used to be christians.  Our minds were already "open" to the possibilty of god's existence.  We later came to the conclusion that the whole thing is just make-believe.  Reading the bible cover-to-cover was certainly a key factor in most cases...

I grew up a Catholic by label only.  I even went through Catholic high school.  I went to Church off and on and was married in the Church.  I honestly never "got it."  I just followed along.  Sure, I was open minded too.  I can't explain it but 2 years ago something happened and I started reading a ton.  I've read more recently than my entire life.  I can't get enough.  Why?  I can't begin to tell you why.  I can only tell you that there are reasonable answers out there but it doesn't come through poor catechists or doing it in isolation. 
It's too difficult that way.  God bless you. 

[Badger347]

Your responses are interesting.  I posted with kindness and intent of demonstrating a Christians point of view.  My hope is you see this and ask meaningful questions as to why I might state something. Some of you have done this.  Others simply are intent on tearing down my point of view. The moderator asks that I not "preach."  I respect this request but find it hard to understand.  First, determining what is preaching and what is not is somewhat subjective.  Something that sounds like "preaching" might in fact be a perfectly valid view with "evidence" behind it, but it requires one to think about its meaning to understand.  I find it odd that this "preaching" rule is in place while people are aloud to simply assert their own negative feelings towards someone else, without evidence of why they feel the way they do, simply because it is a Christian one.  Apparently, it is acceptable simply to preach God does not exist as a valid reason to respond.  The fact God can not be disproved because it would require one to be God to do this, which science can not do.  This is the domain of philosophy, not science.     

I honestly want to read all of your responses and reply with only kindness.  However, there are too many posts, I do not have all the answers, I'm only human and might use words others find offensive (that is not my intent), and the rules make it difficult to reply.  I will try as time allows, unless of course the moderator deems my responses as too "preachy" and I get removed or blocked. 

In the meantime, I will pray to God for souls I believe are in the dark.  This is a way of saying I believe in a good and personal God, who loves and listens to his creature, man, and who wants all to believe in him.  This statement is evidence of the good Christianity "teaches" people, like me.  This is directly addressing the original post regarding Christianity and violence.  If you don't believe in God, fine, then my comment on praying for you shouldn't offend you because it means nothing. 

[Whateverman]

I haven't read all the responses, but I'd be surprised if no one has mentioned black / white relations in the US.  Slavery and the inferiority of the black race was justified Biblically, and there's no question this justification lead to violence.  FFS, we had a lynching as recently as the late 1960s.

---

Your comment about your parents claiming it's the people who are violent, not the religion...

If people are blamed for bad religious behavior, how do your parents reconcile this idea with the violence in the old Testament?  People clearly do not go around stoning non-virgin brides on their wedding night, despite the fact that God seems to have approved of this behavior...

[Aaron123]

If you're referring to the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc.  Yes, these are difficult things to accept.  I'm still working on it myself.  We've always been taught the ends do not justify the means.  However, I've found keeping an open mind and listening to those who study this stuff results in reasonable answers.  I can only offer a little and yes it involves faith, supported be reason though.  Ultimately, it gets back to whether you believe God exists or not.  If you do, God is infinite and we can not possibly understand him completely with our finite minds and somethings are a mystery.  We can understand that an infinite God is not bound by our limits.  To some degree we can understand what is revealed through Jesus, which is the lens we must use to interpret scripture.  The crucified Jesus is love.  This is something that needs a great deal of thought (meditation) and study to understand.  Not "preaching" here, just facts about trying to understand Christianity.

Translation: Just ignore the fact that my god is a mass-murderer.

If Jesus is God (which I believe but understand you do not), then he deserves our worship.  Evil is the absence of God. Hell is a word we use to describe a place people go to who have, under their own free will, rejected God.  The suffering is the lose of God.  Not "preaching" here, just facts about trying to understand Christianity.

Matthew 13:42
And the angels will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Explain to me how this is going to hell under "their own free will".

I think it is safe to assume you are referring to the abuse cases brought against priests in recent years.  If you look at the US Conference of Catholic Bishops web site and read about this, you will find the complete story.  Most importantly, one abuse is a tragedy. This is acknowledged by the Bishops and should be by all Catholics and good people.  With this understood, realize the Church has taken great measures to respond to this and to prevent it in the future.  To judge better we must look at the facts though and compare.  There is plenty of information out there on all this but the basics are:
1. The media is attacking the Church and not reporting the facts correctly.
2. The number of validated cases is something like 6 spanning decades of reported abuse. 
3. Many reported cases go back decades and the priests are no longer alive to defend themselves. 
4. Organizations, like SNAP, are out for money and to harm the Church.
5. The public school system in the US has something like 200 validated cases per year and yet no one is bringing that up.  There are more validated cases recently in the Jewish community just with NY than all of the Catholic Church, yet no one is bringing that up.  You get my point, I hope. 
6. All of the priestly abuse cases are by males (obviously) and involving post-pubescent boys.  Interesting the media doesn't report this particular fact because that would mean we are in essence talking about homosexuality, which... well, that's another discussion. 

 

In short; ignore what's going on and assume that nothing serious is happening.

I grew up a Catholic by label only.  I even went through Catholic high school.  I went to Church off and on and was married in the Church.  I honestly never "got it."  I just followed along.  Sure, I was open minded too.  I can't explain it but 2 years ago something happened and I started reading a ton.  I've read more recently than my entire life.  I can't get enough.  Why?  I can't begin to tell you why.  I can only tell you that there are reasonable answers out there but it doesn't come through poor catechists or doing it in isolation. 
It's too difficult that way.  God bless you.

Sounds like you're saying you had a big "woo" moment.  That is neither interesting or compelling.  It's just... standard fluff.

[Seppuku]

Badger, to help you clarify, please read the rules, they will answer some of your questions and of course help you with your discussions and how you approach this forum:

The Rules

I know a lot of forums have a list of rules that are pretty much common sense, however, this has parts that are a little more specific and cover this forum's expectations of members - theist and atheist.

Of course, people like it if you're able to address their points directly. Having vague responses (which we sometimes get) doesn't really help a discussion.

If you don't know how to answer a question or you're overwhelmed, please just say so. Another thing we get is people offering vague answers because they don't know how to answer the question or they're addressing so many points that they're not putting the time into give them substance. I think it's better if you're able to give a few strong responses than many weak ones. Just be sure to let people know that's what you're trying to do (so they don't think you're ignoring them) and do your best to address as many points as you can, but we realise you're not superman.

[JeffPT]

I can't explain it but 2 years ago something happened and I started reading a ton.  I've read more recently than my entire life.  I can't get enough.  Why?  I can't begin to tell you why.  I can only tell you that there are reasonable answers out there but it doesn't come through poor catechists or doing it in isolation. 
It's too difficult that way.  God bless you.

Perhaps you are reading books that give you one very jaded side of an incredibly 2 sided argument.  I, too, have done a lot more reading in the past 3 to 5 years than in most of my life.  If all you are reading is books that reinforce your stance, then you aren't looking for the truth.  You're just avoiding the evidence stacked up against you.  You must read both sides of the argument to have a clear picture.  You should read Christian books and atheist books and critique each one fairly.  If you aren't doing that, then you can't say you are looking for truth now, can you? 

In my own defense, over the past few years I have read the bible and 3 Christian apologist books, as well as several atheist books and quite a bit about how the bible came to be from an agnostic author's reference point.  I feel this has given me enough information to make a better decision about which side is more likely right.  Suffice to say, it's no contest.  The atheist side wins, hands down.  It's just not a close fight. 

You really could be completely wrong about God you know, Badger.  You really could. 



 

[Badger347]

I haven't read all the responses, but I'd be surprised if no one has mentioned black / white relations in the US.  Slavery and the inferiority of the black race was justified Biblically, and there's no question this justification lead to violence.  FFS, we had a lynching as recently as the late 1960s.

O.K., your post is a good one.  Please show us where the Bible justified slavery and an inferiority of the black race.  Please make the connection between that and a real example of a lynching in the 1960s. 

I'll repeat my original post on the second greatest commandment: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 


---

Your comment about your parents claiming it's the people who are violent, not the religion...

If people are blamed for bad religious behavior, how do your parents reconcile this idea with the violence in the old Testament?  People clearly do not go around stoning non-virgin brides on their wedding night, despite the fact that God seems to have approved of this behavior...

I (not my parents) made a point early that there is a difference between what is "taught" and what people do, yes.  Again, the Old Testament (a collection of various books by different writers at different times for different audiences and purposes) must be seen through the lens of the New Testament and who Jesus Christ is.  Christians believe Jesus revealed much to us.  The Old Testament writings are difficult for us to read sometimes.  Please give actual books, chapters, and verses where you think God told people to stone a non-virgin bride and I'll try to look up an answer for us to discuss.  Notice I'm not promising I can answer this for you myself.  I honestly don't have all the answers but am willing to learn with you. 

[One Above All]

Again, the Old Testament (a collection of various books by different writers at different times for different audiences and purposes) must be seen through the lens of the New Testament and who Jesus Christ is.

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

You're right. It becomes a lot clearer now. Our interpretation is right, yours is wrong.

If you wish to claim that these quotes are out of context, you should also be prepared to explain exactly in what context slaughtering millions is OK.

[Badger347]

If you're referring to the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc.  Yes, these are difficult things to accept.  I'm still working on it myself.  We've always been taught the ends do not justify the means.  However, I've found keeping an open mind and listening to those who study this stuff results in reasonable answers.  I can only offer a little and yes it involves faith, supported be reason though.  Ultimately, it gets back to whether you believe God exists or not.  If you do, God is infinite and we can not possibly understand him completely with our finite minds and somethings are a mystery.  We can understand that an infinite God is not bound by our limits.  To some degree we can understand what is revealed through Jesus, which is the lens we must use to interpret scripture.  The crucified Jesus is love.  This is something that needs a great deal of thought (meditation) and study to understand.  Not "preaching" here, just facts about trying to understand Christianity.

Translation: Just ignore the fact that my god is a mass-murderer.

I think you are ignoring a fine response and mocking me in the process.  You are proving my point on arrogance.

If Jesus is God (which I believe but understand you do not), then he deserves our worship.  Evil is the absence of God. Hell is a word we use to describe a place people go to who have, under their own free will, rejected God.  The suffering is the lose of God.  Not "preaching" here, just facts about trying to understand Christianity.

Matthew 13:42
And the angels will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Explain to me how this is going to hell under "their own free will".

Sure. This verse is part of a section where the disciples are asking Jesus to explain a parable, the parable is the weeds among the wheat.  Parables are very interesting.  In the parable, Jesus is warning believers and non-believers not to try and anticipate the final judgement of God when it comes to excluding sinners from the kingdom.  The judgement of God alone will eliminate the sinful, until then there must be patience and preaching of repentance.  Jesus' explanation to his disciples, which includes what you site, emphasizes the fearful end of the wicked. 

We (all of us) need to be mindful of not taking one verse out of context.  This verse is explaining what will happen after God's judgement of the actions we take under our own free will. 

 

I think it is safe to assume you are referring to the abuse cases brought against priests in recent years.  If you look at the US Conference of Catholic Bishops web site and read about this, you will find the complete story.  Most importantly, one abuse is a tragedy. This is acknowledged by the Bishops and should be by all Catholics and good people.  With this understood, realize the Church has taken great measures to respond to this and to prevent it in the future.  To judge better we must look at the facts though and compare.  There is plenty of information out there on all this but the basics are:
1. The media is attacking the Church and not reporting the facts correctly.
2. The number of validated cases is something like 6 spanning decades of reported abuse. 
3. Many reported cases go back decades and the priests are no longer alive to defend themselves. 
4. Organizations, like SNAP, are out for money and to harm the Church.
5. The public school system in the US has something like 200 validated cases per year and yet no one is bringing that up.  There are more validated cases recently in the Jewish community just with NY than all of the Catholic Church, yet no one is bringing that up.  You get my point, I hope. 
6. All of the priestly abuse cases are by males (obviously) and involving post-pubescent boys.  Interesting the media doesn't report this particular fact because that would mean we are in essence talking about homosexuality, which... well, that's another discussion. 

 

In short; ignore what's going on and assume that nothing serious is happening.

Again, you ignore a perfectly good statement and prove my point on arrogance.  Have you nothing more to defend your point of view with than this?  If you don't, I'm going to stop answering you because you are not open to anything. 

I grew up a Catholic by label only.  I even went through Catholic high school.  I went to Church off and on and was married in the Church.  I honestly never "got it."  I just followed along.  Sure, I was open minded too.  I can't explain it but 2 years ago something happened and I started reading a ton.  I've read more recently than my entire life.  I can't get enough.  Why?  I can't begin to tell you why.  I can only tell you that there are reasonable answers out there but it doesn't come through poor catechists or doing it in isolation. 
It's too difficult that way.  God bless you.

Sounds like you're saying you had a big "woo" moment.  That is neither interesting or compelling.  It's just... standard fluff.

My point is saying one has read the bible or was brought up Christian and then found it not valid is not much of a defense.  I was using my personal experience as an example to the contrary.  "Fluff"...   I can certainly say the same is true with your responses.   

[Badger347]

I can't explain it but 2 years ago something happened and I started reading a ton.  I've read more recently than my entire life.  I can't get enough.  Why?  I can't begin to tell you why.  I can only tell you that there are reasonable answers out there but it doesn't come through poor catechists or doing it in isolation. 
It's too difficult that way.  God bless you.

Perhaps you are reading books that give you one very jaded side of an incredibly 2 sided argument.  I, too, have done a lot more reading in the past 3 to 5 years than in most of my life.  If all you are reading is books that reinforce your stance, then you aren't looking for the truth.  You're just avoiding the evidence stacked up against you.  You must read both sides of the argument to have a clear picture.  You should read Christian books and atheist books and critique each one fairly.  If you aren't doing that, then you can't say you are looking for truth now, can you? 

In my own defense, over the past few years I have read the bible and 3 Christian apologist books, as well as several atheist books and quite a bit about how the bible came to be from an agnostic author's reference point.  I feel this has given me enough information to make a better decision about which side is more likely right.  Suffice to say, it's no contest.  The atheist side wins, hands down.  It's just not a close fight. 

You really could be completely wrong about God you know, Badger.  You really could.

You make a good point about questioning my readings as being one-sided.  I've read probably close to 100 books in 2 to 2.5 years...most are on the side of God.  However, some of these are philosophy which we can learn from great minds who have tackled the important questions.  Some are on theology, some are apologetic in nature, and yes I did try to read "god is not great" by the late C. Hitchens.  I found myself making notes in every paragraph's margin of Hitchens' book, and I concluded he was a smart man but he let some early experiences in his life jade his views eventually he shut down to trying to truly understand Christianity. That's just my opinion.  I've listened to debates and constantly listen to Catholic radio where atheist callers challenge the guests regularly.  I've read some of the threads on this very forum and many of the responses to my posts here.  So, I think that I've considered the opposite point of view to a point.   

As for evidence, I will say you are avoiding the evidence stacked against you.  All of humanity has by far believed in a supreme being.   Only recently have a minority become more outspoken.  Like other areas of discussion, the proof usually lies with the minority.  You'd argue it is because of science and atheists being more enlightened than our ancestors.  I'd say science (particularly microbiology) has only proven more so that there must be a God and we are actually dumber than our ancestors because our society has pushed God out and is ignoring objective truth. 

[Badger347]

Badger, to help you clarify, please read the rules, they will answer some of your questions and of course help you with your discussions and how you approach this forum:

The Rules

I know a lot of forums have a list of rules that are pretty much common sense, however, this has parts that are a little more specific and cover this forum's expectations of members - theist and atheist.

Of course, people like it if you're able to address their points directly. Having vague responses (which we sometimes get) doesn't really help a discussion.

If you don't know how to answer a question or you're overwhelmed, please just say so. Another thing we get is people offering vague answers because they don't know how to answer the question or they're addressing so many points that they're not putting the time into give them substance. I think it's better if you're able to give a few strong responses than many weak ones. Just be sure to let people know that's what you're trying to do (so they don't think you're ignoring them) and do your best to address as many points as you can, but we realise you're not superman.

Thank you. I did read the rules posted by the moderator regarding preaching and believe I have already explained the issue I had with them.  If you find something vague, please state it but realize I have written some to address issues with broad strokes. Some may see them as vague, others may not depending on how knowledgeable one is in a specific area. If you find interest in something, ask me something specific. 

Thank you for your consideration by the way.

[Whateverman]

I apologize for the fact that most of my reply is a lengthy cut & paste:

O.K., your post is a good one.  Please show us where the Bible justified slavery and an inferiority of the black race.  Please make the connection between that and a real example of a lynching in the 1960s.

No, Badger.  All I need to show is that Christians believed the Bible justified it; whether you agree with them or not is immaterial.  Showing that this belief wasn't simply a fringe interpretation of Scripture is probably also going to add weight to my claim:

Taken from ReligiousTolerance.org

The Christian church's main justification of the concept of slavery is based on Genesis 9:25-27. According to the Bible, the worldwide flood had concluded and there were only 8 humans alive on earth: Noah, his wife, their six sons and daughters in law. Noah's son Ham had seen "the nakedness of his father." So, Noah laid a curse -- not on Ham, who was guilty of some type of indiscretion. The sin was transferred to Noah's grandson Canaan. Such transference of sin from a guilty to an innocent person or persons is unusual in the world's religious and secular moral codes. It is normally considered highly unethical. However, it appears in many biblical passages. The curse extended to all of Canaan's descendants:

   Genesis 9:25-27: "Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers. He also said, 'Blessed be the Lord, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem. May God extend the territory of Japheth; may Japeth live in the tents of Shem and may Canaan be his slave'. "

Christians traditionally believed that Canaan had settled in Africa. The dark skin of Africans became associated with this "curse of Ham." Thus slavery of Africans became religiously justifiable. Author Anthony Pagden wrote:

"This reading of the Book of Genesis merged easily into a medieval iconographic tradition in which devils were always depicted as black. Later pseudo-scientific theories would be built around African skull shapes, dental structure, and body postures, in an attempt to find an unassailable argument--rooted in whatever the most persuasive contemporary idiom happened to be: law, theology, genealogy, or natural science -- why one part of the human race should live in perpetual indebtedness to another." 1

By today's secular and religious standards:

   slavery is immoral.
   cursing all of an individual's descendents into perpetual slavery because of an inappropriate act by an ancestor is immoral.
   laying a curse on the son of the person who committed the act is immoral.
But in ancient times, cursing a whole race into slavery was considered acceptable because it was in the Bible. The American slave owner felt that he was carrying out God's plan by buying and using slaves.

Slavery was also condoned and regulated in many passages of the in the Bible. There is no record of Jesus having commented on it. Paul had every opportunity to condemn slavery, particularly in his Epistle to Philemon. But he remained silent, except to urge slaves to be content with their lot and to obey their owners.

I (not my parents) made a point early that there is a difference between what is "taught" and what people do, yes.  Again, the Old Testament (a collection of various books by different writers at different times for different audiences and purposes) must be seen through the lens of the New Testament and who Jesus Christ is.  Christians believe Jesus revealed much to us.  The Old Testament writings are difficult for us to read sometimes.  Please give actual books, chapters, and verses where you think God told people to stone a non-virgin bride and I'll try to look up an answer for us to discuss.  Notice I'm not promising I can answer this for you myself.  I honestly don't have all the answers but am willing to learn with you.

KJV - Deuteronomy 22 14-21

14And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:

 15Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:

 16And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;

 17And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.

 18And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;

 19And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.

 20But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:

 21Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

I appreciate your humility in claiming to not necessarily have answers.

[Quesi]

As for evidence, I will say you are avoiding the evidence stacked against you.  All of humanity has by far believed in a supreme being.    Only recently have a minority become more outspoken. 

That is actually not true. 

Throughout human history, there have been a wide range of myths and creation stories, most of which involved multiple dieties, or worship of entities within the immediate environment, ranging from trees to volcanoes to corn.  A significant percentage of humanity believes in reincarnation or ancestor worship. 

There have always been philosophers or sceptics who did not believe in the dominant religion of their time and place.  It is only in the past few centuries that science has really started to answer many of the questions that more primitive people could not answer, and therefore turned to religion.  Science has certainly made atheism increasingly accessible.  But it is not new.     

In terms of the current religious landscape, Christianity alone represents about 33% of people alive today.  When combined with Islam and Judaism, monotheism represents about 55% of the current living population. 

But if you were to count all people who have ever lived, what you consider a belief in a "supreme being" would represent a really tiny fraction of humanity. 

[ParkingPlaces]

I was not brought up christian, though when very young I attended church, where I never paid attention. So this is not from personal experience. You can't use that excuse with me.

I am providing you with a quote from the bible. Where is the peace and justice and love and personal responsibility and free will in this one?

[quoteDeuteronomy 25:11-12
New International Version (NIV)
 11 If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, 12 you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.[/quote]

Same book, a little earlier:

13 If a man takes a wife and, after sleeping with her, dislikes her 14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, “I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,” 15 then the young woman’s father and mother shall bring to the town elders at the gate proof that she was a virgin. 16 Her father will say to the elders, “I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and said, ‘I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.’ But here is the proof of my daughter’s virginity.” Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him. 19 They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the young woman’s father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.
 20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.

I put the worst parts in red for emphasis. Again, where is the love. And why don't you do this any more?

You're not allowed to say it is because jc negated the old testament. Many come here and say that, then go on to remind us that Leviticus condemns homosexuality. So if gay sex is bad and has to be condemned today, why aren't christians stoning their daughters too? But only as necessary, of course.

This is the sort of thing we find in the bible that leads us to see the book as violent and inconsistent with the message of love so often attributed to the tome.

Obviously the book doesn't impress us in the first place, with it's tales of creation and floods and men living in fish tummies. Nor does the rising from the dead thingy impress. But when one gets into the details, the bible starts looking way too ugly to use as a guide for anything. Well, maybe if they renamed it "What not to do for Dummies"

The bible says I am a born sinner. Okay, then why do I not like it when people are killed or maimed unnecessarily? Why don't I like it when entire peoples, including women and children, are commanded to be killed by this god guy I'm supposed to worship. Why is it I can have sympathy for all the millions who died if there was a a flood. Why is it that I, an atheist, obviously unsaved, obviously a sinner by your definition, would never sic a bear on 42 kids or otherwise betray my own sense of right and wrong, human decency and kindness?

Why is it that I am more moral than your god? By far? I could write a million books about morality and how lives should be lived and not once suggest killing over the trivial or mundane. Your god couldn't whip out one. That's why I'm not impressed.

Most of us here on this site see the bible as a book that violates basic tenants of human decency over and over again. Because of that, we are unable to define it or the religion(s) it spawned as anything but inherently violent. If that is an overstatement, saying that it has a propensity for violence is not.

P.S. Don't pray for me either. I too find that insulting. A waste of good air and good brain cells. And lips.

[Nick]

Instead of praying for us...donate some money to a non-religious charity/organization and expect nothing in return.

[Whateverman]

BTW Badger, I can see you're involved in many conversations here.  If you have neither the bandwidth or inclination to respond to me, I wont claim victory or see it as a concession to my argument.  Seriously.  I dislike pig-piling upon theists when they're in the minority on a forum.

I do think I've supported my claims, however.

[Alzael]

As for evidence, I will say you are avoiding the evidence stacked against you.  All of humanity has by far believed in a supreme being.    Only recently have a minority become more outspoken. 

Actually the concept of a "supreme being" is very rare. The concept comes from Zoroastrianism and through it's influence filtered on into Judaism and then to Christianity and Islam. Even in cultures that had forms of god-worship it was very rare for the gods to be viewed as "supreme". Powerful yes, but they were hardly supreme. They were typically just as flawed as humans, often moreso.