Author Topic: Christianity not violent?  (Read 3514 times)

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Offline skepticlogician

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Christianity not violent?
« on: March 20, 2012, 08:32:07 PM »
I was talking with my parents a few days ago (in one of those occasions in which they have a go on trying to convert me back to Christianity). I was telling them how religion is the cause of most of the violence in our planet... Their immediate reply was "that's Islam and other religions... Christianity is not violent!" ... I reminded them of the inquisition and all the other instances in which Christianity has performed killing feats of that kind but, I kept trying to come up with an example of Christian violence in our days... I couldn't come up with anything... Obviously the kid abusing priests were not spared in our conversation but I still couldn't come up with an example of violent Christianity ... That crazy woman from Westboro Baptist church (what's her name?) is the only one that popped into mind. Is it really that Christianity is exempt of violence? Can you guys think of good examples? oh! ... and those doctor-killing pro-lifers... but other than that... what else? :)
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Offline Nick

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2012, 08:38:06 PM »
How about the Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline HAL

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2012, 08:52:51 PM »
I was talking with my parents a few days ago (in one of those occasions in which they have a go on trying to convert me back to Christianity). I was telling them how religion is the cause of most of the violence in our planet... Their immediate reply was "that's Islam and other religions... Christianity is not violent!" ...

You won't win the argument.

They will just claim that the Christian religion is not violent, it's the people who misuse power or are corrupted who act in the name of Christianity, who were violent. They will make this distinction and you won't gain any traction at all.

Sorry, you have good intentions, but it won't work.

Offline Quesi

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2012, 09:06:05 PM »
HAL is right, of course.  They will say that it is the individuals or the groups of individuals, not the religion.  But if you still want to try, there are more directions that you could go in than I could list. 

Would you like to focus on institutionalized violence perpetuated by Christian-led governments, ranging from Apartheid in South Africa to attempted genocide in Guatemala?  Do you want quirky cult-like stuff?  Branch Davidians and Charles Manson and company caused a lot of death in the name of Jesus.  Mainstream hate groups, like the Ku Klux Klan or neo Nazis?  Kony and the Lord’s Resistance Army is getting its 15 minutes of fame.  Anders Behring Breivik from Norway acted in the name of God.   Not sure how many doctors have been assassinated for performing abortions.  Gay bashing?  Hate crimes against Muslims?  Westboro Baptist Church? 

Offline HAL

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2012, 09:14:08 PM »
HAL is right, of course.  They will say that it is the individuals or the groups of individuals, not the religion.  But if you still want to try, there are more directions that you could go in than I could list.  ...

Go ahead and give it a shot, I'm just saying that if they are good and indoctrinated like they probably are, they'll be able to rationalize away your evidence (which I do agree with - but I'm not a Christian  :))

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2012, 12:30:40 AM »
Bush declared war in Afghanistan and Iraq because God wanted him to. That current enough for you?

President Bush speaking to Nabil Shaath, Palestinian foreign minister at the time "I am driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."

Quesi had other examples I was going to mention too. Kony is a Christian, so is Anders Breveik.

Christian Justin Green killed US Army Specialist Jose Ramirez in 2007 for being an atheist.

But Hal is right. Your parents will try to claim that Bush is not a TrueChristian™, despite the fact that in all of these examples, it is most likely that violence would not have occured had these people not been Christians. You can't win when they constantly move the goalposts.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 12:36:11 AM by joebbowers »
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Offline bertatberts

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2012, 09:24:30 AM »
skepticlogician:
However much I agree with Hal.
 
I've had this argument so many times, and I always say to whatever theist that states, people would be violent anyway.
Is without the utter disrespect they have for life which they learn from there religion.(I.E. this life is but a test, for eternal life) Could you honestly say they would do and be the same evil people.

The fact that people without religion are less likely to kill, proves they wouldn't.

You only have to look at the countries that are more secular to see how healthy they are.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/rankorderguide.html
All the information is here.
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Offline skepticlogician

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2012, 09:08:56 PM »
Thank you guys for your responses! Everything is great material! You all make very interesting and valid points. I will have to do some reading to get up to date on all of those! Thanks!
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Offline Seppuku

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2012, 09:33:37 PM »
Guess you could quote the bible and attached real world examples. Also, don't quote out of context, be sure to get the full context, if it's the old testament and bring in teachings telling them to read the old testament...use more than one for extra conviction. Do they believe in Creation? That was Genesis, a book in the old testament. I like using the 5 books of Moses, I did have a good quote from Jesus (can't remember which passage) basically saying listen to Moses' word. With that you get two awesome gold mines, Deuteronomy and Leviticus. Genesis is another and so is Exodus and off of the top of my head I can't remember the other one.

Evilbible.com is a good friend.


Example:
Torture and murder of so-called 'witches' by Christians
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/dec/09/tracymcveigh.theobserver
Exodus 22 (King James Version)
 18"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
Context: Social Responsibility.

If they challenge it, suggest the bible brought them the paranoia to believe there are witches and when they see signs such as disease and famine they see it as evidence of witchcraft.


Might be worth a few google searches to get some of these examples, I might post more tomorrow, I REALLY should go to bed and not keep reading these forums.  ;D
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 09:36:06 PM by Seppuku »
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Offline Badger347

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2012, 10:53:45 PM »
Peace be with you. 

You won't win the argument because the truth is Christianity's focus is love, both of God and neighbor.  Whether you believe in Christ or not, Christianity "teaches" man has fallen and evil, in this case man acting without God, is the cause.  Jesus' Sermon on the Mount...Blessed are the "peacemakers" is probably the most famous reference to Christianity's teaching on peace.

Further Christianity is about respecting life.  Why do you think Catholics are so focused on teaching that contraception, abortion, and euthanasia are wrong.  All of these are classified as intrinsically evil acts because they are against life. 

Look at what Christianity actually teaches with an open mind instead of attempting to draw faulty correlations from human behavior.  Unless you are a super genius, you'll have to turn to others to help you learn about it.  I suggest turning to some of the great Saints/minds of the past.


Offline Aaron123

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2012, 12:14:06 AM »
You won't win the argument because the truth is Christianity's focus is love, both of God and neighbor.

Are we talking about the same god that killed millions of peoples in the bible?


Quote
Whether you believe in Christ or not, Christianity "teaches" man has fallen and evil, in this case man acting without God, is the cause.  Jesus' Sermon on the Mount...Blessed are the "peacemakers" is probably the most famous reference to Christianity's teaching on peace.


Are we talking about the same christianity that states "worship Jesus, or suffer forever in hell"?


Quote
Further Christianity is about respecting life.  Why do you think Catholics are so focused on teaching that contraception, abortion, and euthanasia are wrong.  All of these are classified as intrinsically evil acts because they are against life. 


Are we talking about the same catholics that likes to moleste little children?


Quote
Look at what Christianity actually teaches with an open mind instead of attempting to draw faulty correlations from human behavior.  Unless you are a super genius, you'll have to turn to others to help you learn about it.  I suggest turning to some of the great Saints/minds of the past.

Many of used to be christians.  Our minds were already "open" to the possibilty of god's existence.  We later came to the conclusion that the whole thing is just make-believe.  Reading the bible cover-to-cover was certainly a key factor in most cases...
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Offline atheola

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2012, 01:02:25 AM »
The entire premise of christinsanity is that a guy was beaten, tortured and had his hands nailed to a cross then left hanging up in the open air to die a slow, miserable and painful death because why? Who loves you baby?
You better believe it's not butter or you'll burn in hell forever and EVER!
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2012, 01:12:19 AM »
The Catholic ban on contraception has led to rampant poverty and starvation in third-world nations. The Catholic church is one of the biggest threats to stability and peace in the world.
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Offline ungod

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2012, 06:28:33 AM »
Is it really that Christianity is exempt of violence? Can you guys think of good examples? oh! ... and those doctor-killing pro-lifers... but other than that... what else? :)

Jonestown, Guyana massacre.

The Lord's Resistance Army, Africa.

Apartheid.

Rwanda slaughter

Lynchings in Southern USA

Trail of tears march

How's those for an appetizer!

« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 06:33:06 AM by ungod »
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Offline ungod

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2012, 07:22:03 AM »
Peace be with you. 

 Jesus' Sermon on the Mount...Blessed are the "peacemakers" is probably the most famous reference to Christianity's teaching on peace.


How is it that those who claim to be the foundation of morality are such good liars?

"I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword" (Gospel of Matthew 10:34)
Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

"What good fortune for those in power that people do not think." - Hitler

Offline HAL

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2012, 07:23:43 AM »
Peace be with you. 

You won't win the argument because the truth is Christianity's focus is love, both of God and neighbor.  Whether you believe in Christ or not, Christianity "teaches" man has fallen and evil, in this case man acting without God, is the cause.  Jesus' Sermon on the Mount...Blessed are the "peacemakers" is probably the most famous reference to Christianity's teaching on peace.

Further Christianity is about respecting life.  Why do you think Catholics are so focused on teaching that contraception, abortion, and euthanasia are wrong.  All of these are classified as intrinsically evil acts because they are against life.

See what I mean ^^^

Offline Babdah

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2012, 07:38:08 AM »
All of these are classified as intrinsically evil acts because they are against life. 

Did god not create everything? Even evil? So they fight againts something that god created to try to make it a better place?
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Offline Grimm

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2012, 07:53:26 AM »
Peace be with you. 

You won't win the argument because the truth is Christianity's focus is love, both of God and neighbor.  Whether you believe in Christ or not, Christianity "teaches" man has fallen and evil, in this case man acting without God, is the cause.  Jesus' Sermon on the Mount...Blessed are the "peacemakers" is probably the most famous reference to Christianity's teaching on peace.

That's true.  There are also lines about not responding to violence with violence (turning the other cheek), giving away all of your possessions and allowing god to take care of you, and about treating the poor well.  There are also lines about how Christ brings not peace, but the "sword", and to divide families and friends. (Matthew 10:34).  You could point out how modern Christians have been instructed to keep all of the old laws, which include things like stoning disobedient children.

Personally, I like to point to the various ways Christianity has been used to justify some of the greatest atrocities of the last couple hundred years, from slavery:

"With regard to the assertion that slavery is against the spirit of Christianity, we are ready to admit the general assertion, but deny most positively that there is anything in the Old or New Testament which would go to show that slavery, when once introduced, ought at all events to be abrogated, or that the master commits any offense in holding slaves. The children of Israel themselves were slaveholders and were not condemned for it. All the patriarchs themselves were slaveholders; Abraham had more than three hundred, Isaac had a "great store" of them; and even the patient and meek Job himself had "a very great household." When the children of Israel conquered the land of Canaan, they made one whole tribe "hewers of wood and drawers of water," and they were at that very time under the special guidance of Jehovah; they were permitted expressly to purchase slaves of the heathen and keep them as an inheritance for their posterity; and even the children of Israel might be enslaved for six years." -  Thomas Dew

to Genocide:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." - Adolf Hitler, April 12, 1922.

to smaller things.  You do know that the president of Zimbabwe, Mugabe, is a Catholic, was invited to Pope John Paul II's beatification ceremony, and is directly responsible for hundreds of documented human rights violations, including the plan of CIBD ("Coercion, Intimidation, Beating, and Displacement" - named by his government) that won him his 2008 presidential election?  The Catholic church not only supports the man, they support his activities by simply not telling him to knock it off.

In the US, the Christian right is colloquially known as the "Gods, Guns, and Get-out" crowd - Jesus and pistols, and they'll start a fight with you if you disagree with them or criticize their position.

Quote
Further Christianity is about respecting life.  Why do you think Catholics are so focused on teaching that contraception, abortion, and euthanasia are wrong.  All of these are classified as intrinsically evil acts because they are against life. 

Ah, yes.  Of course, they also don't excommunicate Catholics like Mugabe, supported Adolf in his pogrom, and their hirearchy lives in one of the most expensive palaces ever built (the Vatican).  They cover up their priests' rape and molestation of children, in many cases going so far as to actively ensure that the priests who were accused of such crimes were moved to new parishes, where they were allowed to continue their actions without real sanction.

They reward fellows like their recent new Cardinal, Dolan, who has actively worked to hide church assets from the victims of church abuse.

Apparently, none of these acts are classified as 'evil', are they?

Quote
Look at what Christianity actually teaches with an open mind instead of attempting to draw faulty correlations from human behavior.  Unless you are a super genius, you'll have to turn to others to help you learn about it.  I suggest turning to some of the great Saints/minds of the past.

We have, believe me.

Catholicism, in particular, is one of the most evil branches of human organization I have ever witnessed, and I say that fully in the knowledge of how hyperbolic that sounds.  For all the good the organization does (and they do!), they cannot admit fault, do not live up to their ideals, and actively campaign for their own importance over their mission.  They would rather let millions die of AIDS then have people use condoms.  They would rather support dictators (like Mugabe) than excommunicate them for blatant acts against the Catholic tradition and philosophy.  They would rather hide malefactors in their own priestly ranks and prevent secular authority from passing judgement for their crimes (while hiding them away in relative comfort) than to stand up and admit wrongdoing or show outrage. 

The modern Catholic church doesn't give a damn for anything other than asserting its own superiority. 

Oh, and - contraception?  /over ninety percent/ of women in the church have used birth control.  Control over one's own body is a foundational freedom.
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Offline Omen

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2012, 08:08:52 AM »
Peace be with you. 

You won't win the argument because the truth is Christianity's focus is love, both of God and neighbor.

Your 'neighbor' is your fellow christian, believer.   It is purely insular and self serving in a manner that can only be described as 'loving'.  In fact, the bible goes so far as to define anyone who is not a fellow believer as the enemy and the claim to love thy enemy is juxtaposed against a dehumanizing superstitious fantasy that 'condemns' that enemy to hell as 'justice'.  Nothing in the biblical context describes an all inclusive benign ethical message and one has to engage in enormous levels of outright intellectual dishonesty to rationalize it to mean that.

Quote
Further Christianity is about respecting life. 

This can't be further from the truth.  The parable in luke 19:27 specifically defines the value of human life as that determined by whether or not that human believes in a ridiculous superstitious myth.

http://bible.cc/luke/19-27.htm

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

In context, those mine enemies, refers specifically to Jews who would do nothing but not believe that Jesus is what he claims to be at face value.  Again, we have a reference where people who are not like 'Jesus' or 'Christians' are by the distinction of being different are pejoratively the enemy.  In context, their value of human life is equal to having the servant brought before the lord and slain.  This is EXACTLY how the biblical context is interpreted theologically speaking and by most ( if not all ) apologetic commentaries.

I reference Gill's commentary specifically:

But those mine enemies,.... Meaning particularly the Jews, who were enemies to the person of Christ, and hated and rejected him, as the King Messiah; and rebelled against him, and would not submit to his government; and were enemies to his people, and were exceeding mad against them, and persecuted them; and to his Gospel, and the distinguishing truths of it, and to his ordinances, which they rejected against themselves:

Throughout the entirety of the bible you will find nothing but pejorative laced rants at any mention of a non-believer.  No where does it treat 'non-believers' in any other light beyond one of a vile and vindictive series of dehumanizing hate speech.  Non-believers are evil, the enemy, anti-christ, they are fools, and none shall do good.  Telling them the word of god is like casting pearls before swine and they are LIARS for not believing that jesus has come in the flesh, do not accept them into your homes or show them comfort.

Quote
I suggest turning to some of the great Saints/minds of the past.

You mean like the christian philosophers who justified killing heretics, wrote books on the "jews and their lies", and contributed to the general stagnation of philosophical treatise following the demise of the Roman Empire?
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 08:13:10 AM by Omen »
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2012, 08:47:01 AM »
Peace be with you. 

You won't win the argument because the truth is Christianity's focus is love, both of God and neighbor.  Whether you believe in Christ or not, Christianity "teaches" man has fallen and evil, in this case man acting without God, is the cause.  Jesus' Sermon on the Mount...Blessed are the "peacemakers" is probably the most famous reference to Christianity's teaching on peace.

Further Christianity is about respecting life.  Why do you think Catholics are so focused on teaching that contraception, abortion, and euthanasia are wrong.  All of these are classified as intrinsically evil acts because they are against life. 

Look at what Christianity actually teaches with an open mind instead of attempting to draw faulty correlations from human behavior.  Unless you are a super genius, you'll have to turn to others to help you learn about it.  I suggest turning to some of the great Saints/minds of the past.

So you redefine Christianity in order to say the aspects of it that are violent, are hateful, that do cause strife, don't really count?

What about the numerous Bible passages that say otherwise? The acts of the Catholic Church that cause suffering? And yes, being anti-contraception in a world with less resources than people causes suffering.

Nah, I think I'll actually rely on what Christian actually do and say rather than your No true Scottsman game of definitions.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Historicity

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2012, 09:08:40 AM »
  Unless you are a super genius, you'll have to turn to others to help you learn about it.  I suggest turning to some of the great Saints/minds of the past.

Okay, you have a contradiction there in your insult there.   First you say I have to turn to others rather than do my own reading.  Then you say that turning to others means reading what people in the past said. 

But how about Thomas Aquinas?

Quote
But St. Thomas, who wrote when the Inquisition was in full operation, felt called upon to defend the infliction of the death penalty upon heretics and the relapsed.  His words deserve careful consideration.  He begins by answering the objections that might be brought by the Scriptures and the Fathers against his thesis.  The first is the well known passage in St. Matthew, in which our Saviour forbids the servants of a householder to gather up the cockle before the harvest time, lest they root up the wheat with it[1].  St. John Chrysotom, he says, "argues from the text that it is wrong to put heretics to death."[2] But according to St. Augustine, the words of the Saviour" "Let the cockle grow until the harvest," are explained at once by what follows: "lest perhaps gathering up the cockle, you root up the wheat also with it."  When there is no danger of uprooting the wheat and no danger of schism, violent measures may be used:  Cum metus iste non subest ... non dormiat severitas disciplinae.[3] We doubt very much whether such reasoning would have satisfied St. John Chrysotom, St. Theodore the Studite, or Bishop Wazo, who understood the Saviour's prohibition in a literal and an absolute sense.

But the passage does not reveal the whole mind of the Angelic doctor.  It is more evident in his exegesis of Ezechiel xviii. 32, Nolo mortem peccatoris.  "Assuredly," he writes, "none of us desires the death of a single heretic.  But remember that the house of David could not obtain peace until Absalom was killed in the war he waged against his father.  In like manner, the Catholic Church saves some of her children by the death of others, and consoles her sorrowing heart by reflecting that she is acting for the general good."[4]  ...

But it is ... distorting the context that St. Thomas makes the Bishop of Hippo advocate the very penalty which ... he always denounced most strongly. In the passage quoted, St. Augustine was speaking of the benefit that ensues to the Church from the suicide of heretics...

Thinking ... that he has satisfactorily answered all the objections ... he states as follows: "Heretics who persist in their error after a second admonition ought not only be excommunicated, but also abandoned to the secular arm to be put to death. For, {sic}he argues{sic}, it is much more wicked to corrupt the faith on which depends the life of the soul, than to debase the coinage which provides merely for temporal life; wherefore, if coiners and other malefactors are justly doomed to death, much more may heretics be justly slain once they are convicted.  If, therefore, they persist in their error after two admonitions, the Church despairs of their conversion, and excommunicates them to ensure the salvation of others whom they might corrupt; she then abandons them to the secular arm that they may be put to death."[5]
...
He advocates the death penalty for the relapse in the name of Christian charity.  For, he argues, charity has for its object the spiritual and temporal welfare of one's neighbor.  His spiritual welfare is the salvation of his soul; his temporal welfare is life, and temporal advantages, such as riches, dignities, and the like.  These temporal advantages are subordinate to the spiritual, and charity must prevent their endangering the eternal salvation of their possessor.  Charity, therefore, to himself and to others, prompts us to deprive him of these temporal goods, if he makes a bad use of them,  For if we allowed the relapsed heretic to live, we would undoubtedly endanger the salvation of others, either because his escape from punishment would lead others to believe they could deny the faith with impunity. The inconstancy of the relapsed is, therefore, a sufficient reason why the Church, although she receives him to penance for his soul's salvation, refuses to free him from the death penalty.
 1. Mat 13:28
 2. In Mathaeum, Homilies, xlvi
 3. Augustine, Contra epistol Parmeniani, lib iii, cap, ii
 4. St. Thomas, Summa, loc. cit. ad 4m.
 5. Summa, IIa IIae, quaest. xi, art. 3

E. Vancandard, The Inquisition: A Critical and Historical Study of the Coercive Power of the Church (New York: Longmans, Green & Co, 1907), tr Bertrand Conway, 1924 ed. pp 123--126.  Nihil Obstat: Thomas Shahan, STD. Imprimatur: John Farley, Archbishop of New York.

[/quote]

The first Latin passage says "But when fear is not present ... severity of discipline should not sleep."  I wonder if that's a misprint.  I thought that should be ne rather than non with the subjunctive.  The second one is "I do not wish the death of a sinner".

The {sic} is for the missing quotes in the original.

This is not a cut and paste.  This is a rekey and paste from hard copy.  Oh darn, I just checked and there is an online version at http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/26329.

I'd like to add that St. Thomas' deduction that burning at the stake is a form of charity reminds me of the line from Cool Hand Luke: "Captain, I wish you'd stop being so nice to me."
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 10:37:40 AM by Historicity »

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2012, 09:30:13 AM »
Saints who do you turn to?

Saint Ambrose?
"The Jews are the most worthless of all men. They are lecherous, greedy, rapacious. They are perfidious murderers of Christ. They worship the Devil. Their religion is a sickness. The Jews are the odious assassins of Christ and for killing God there is no expiation possible, no indulgence or pardon. Christians may never cease vengeance, and the Jew must live in servitude forever. God always hated the Jews. It is essential that all Christians hate them."

Saint Augustine?
"There is another form of temptation, even more fraught with danger.  This is the disease of curiosity.  It is this which drives us to try and discover the secrets of nature, those secrets which are beyond our understanding, which can avail us nothing and which man should not wish to learn."

Saint Loyola?
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."

Or the Pope?

"Slavery itself ... is not at all contrary to the natural and divine law... The purchaser [of the slave] should carefully examine whether the slave who is put up for sale has been justly or unjustly deprived of his liberty, and that the vendor should do nothing which might endanger the life, virtue, or Catholic faith of the slave."

Yeah, real good role models there.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 11:04:38 AM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Historicity

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2012, 09:39:06 AM »
Peace be with you. 

Pasta be upon your plate.

Quote
  Why do you think Catholics are so focused on teaching that contraception, abortion, and euthanasia are wrong.

I see that you're a right-wing Catholic.  The current eternal stance of the Church is for nuclear disarmament, opposition to America's invasion of Iraq and opposition to the death penalty.

In the early 19th century following the Enlightenment ideas of Lombroso the various states of Italy eliminated the death penalty with one exception:  the Papal States.   There were 2 methods, beheading and crushing the skull with a sledge hammer.  Later they used the guillotine.  The Church insisted that the death penalty was an eternal doctrine -- until they decided on another eternal doctrine in the late 20th century.


Offline Omen

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2012, 09:45:00 AM »
Don't let the Catholics get all the attention, here's a founding father of protestant belief ( Martin Luther ):

http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm

( The entirety of the text is available online )

I had made up my mind to write no more either about the Jews or against them. But since I learned that those miserable and accursed people do not cease to lure to themselves even us, that is, the Christians, I have published this little book, so that I might be found among those who opposed such poisonous activities of the Jews and who warned the Christians to be on their guard against them. I would not have believed that a Christian could be duped by the Jews into taking their exile and wretchedness upon himself. However, the devil is the god of the world, and wherever God's word is absent he has an easy task, not only with the weak but also with the strong. May God help us. Amen.

Burn their homes, schools, and synagogues!

First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly_and I myself was unaware of it_will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

Look at the hubris in this one:

Further, they presume to instruct God and prescribe the manner in which he is to redeem them. For the Jews, these very learned saints, look upon God as a poor cobbler equipped with only a left last for making shoes. This is to say that he is to kill and exterminate all of us Goyim through their Messiah, so that they can lay their hands on the land, the goods, and the government of the whole world. And now a storm breaks over us with curses, defamation, and derision that cannot be expressed with words. They wish that sword and war, distress and every misfortune may overtake us accursed Goyim. They vent their curses on us openly every Saturday in their synagogues and daily in their homes. They teach, urge, and train their children from infancy to remain the bitter, virulent, and wrathful enemies of the Christians.

Justifying blood curse myths and other typical christian antisemitism? Indeed sir. 

I have read and heard many stories about the Jews which agree with this judgment of Christ, namely, how they have poisoned wells, made assassinations, kidnaped children, as related before. I have heard that one Jew sent another Jew, and this by means of a Christian, a pot of blood, together with a barrel of wine, in which when drunk empty, a dead Jew was found. There are many other similar stories. For their kidnaping of children they have often been burned at the stake or banished (as we already heard). I am well aware that they deny all of this. However, it all coincides with the judgment of Christ which declares that they are venomous, bitter, vindictive, tricky serpents, assassins, and children of the devil who sting and work harm stealthily wherever they cannot do it openly. For this reason I should like to see them where there are no Christians. The Turks and other heathen do not tolerate what we Christians endure from these venomous serpents and young devils. Nor do the Jews treat any others as they do us Christians. That is what I had in mind when I said earlier that, next to the devil, a Christian has no more bitter and galling foe than a Jew. There is no other to whom we accord as many benefactions and from whom we suffer as much as we do from these base children of the devil, this brood of vipers.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2012, 12:58:51 PM »
And by the way, "love thy neighbor" only applied to Jews. Jesus hated non Jews, calling them "dogs." So what is his real message?
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Offline Seppuku

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2012, 05:59:31 AM »
Peace be with you. 

You won't win the argument because the truth is Christianity's focus is love, both of God and neighbor.  Whether you believe in Christ or not, Christianity "teaches" man has fallen and evil, in this case man acting without God, is the cause.  Jesus' Sermon on the Mount...Blessed are the "peacemakers" is probably the most famous reference to Christianity's teaching on peace.

Further Christianity is about respecting life.  Why do you think Catholics are so focused on teaching that contraception, abortion, and euthanasia are wrong.  All of these are classified as intrinsically evil acts because they are against life. 

Look at what Christianity actually teaches with an open mind instead of attempting to draw faulty correlations from human behavior.  Unless you are a super genius, you'll have to turn to others to help you learn about it.  I suggest turning to some of the great Saints/minds of the past.

Read my post and read my signature. Unfortunately these are some of the standards taught in the bible. Whilst I am happy there are Christians who believe in peace and I say, keep on being peaceful, but the bible is horribly violent and it teaches it too. Yes, Jesus teaches some nice stuff, but parts of the bible contradicts itself. On one hand you've got Jesus basically being a hippy (peace and love man) then you've got him saying he's come to deliver the Old Testament, not to abolished old laws but to enforce them and the Old Testament has some of the most screwed up teachings out there.

Christians are still violent today (though we tend not to think so), my previous post uses an example I would never expect to happy in the 21st Century. It can be shocking what people can do in the name of their preferred deity.
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2012, 07:55:49 AM »
I think even those "average, peaceful" Christians are still quite harmful, in a very real and tangible way. They oppose scientific progress, life-saving medical research and equal rights, and they force those beliefs on others with their votes.
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Offline kymer

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2012, 08:21:05 AM »
Peace be with you. 

You won't win the argument because the truth is Christianity's focus is love, both of God and neighbor.

Further Christianity is about respecting life. 

You have a point. A distinction must be made between the purpose of your religion and the actions of those who claim to be representative of it. It's unfortunate that so many bad people have done so many bad things in its name, and I believe John Lennox calls it the dark side of religion. I think any philosophy based on morality is prone to being hijacked in this way and it succeeds in distorting the original message and putting people off it. There certainly is a place for positive philosophies (it's much needed apart from anything else), whether they involve a god or not, and I suppose it's a curse that people will always try and muddy the waters and make ill informed judgements, but struggling through that is worth it, I think. So good luck to you, I say. And stay focussed on what really matters.

Offline Seppuku

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Re: Christianity not violent?
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2012, 09:55:18 AM »
I think even those "average, peaceful" Christians are still quite harmful, in a very real and tangible way. They oppose scientific progress, life-saving medical research and equal rights, and they force those beliefs on others with their votes.

Depends on the christian, if they exorcise their kids, deny them medical treatment and try to stand in the way of medical science and insist on indoctrinating children, then yes they're still dangerous. As they're obviously ignoring the more violent teachings, it'd be nice if they came to their senses about other parts of the bible. Fortunately only one of the Christians I know outside of the Internet fills some of that criteria. Either way I'm still pleased that even the crazy ones aren't out murdering people on the street like the bible tells them to, but of course i am even happier with those who go the extra mile with reason and do nothing to harm others.
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