Author Topic: Pornography  (Read 2865 times)

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Online One Above All

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Re: Pornography
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2012, 03:29:41 AM »
You know what's actually debasing and damaging for people? Not allowing them to make their own choices when those choices don't affect anyone else negatively and they're perfectly aware of the consequences. Id est: Treating them like retards.

As for "damage", that's just BS. You probably consider it "damaging" if it makes people think in a way that isn't your own.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 03:31:38 AM by Lucifer »
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Offline atheola

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Re: Pornography
« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2012, 03:32:34 AM »
You didn't answer the question.. It's an A or B question, not one of high moralsasking your stance on pornography in general. You're smart enough to realize pornography isn't leaving us as long as the male penis is hard when men wake up.
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Online One Above All

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Re: Pornography
« Reply #31 on: March 21, 2012, 03:35:18 AM »
You didn't answer the question.. It's an A or B question, not one of high moralsasking your stance on pornography in general. You're smart enough to realize pornography isn't leaving us as long as the male penis is hard when men wake up.

Pretty sure he chose the "have (more) people raping other people" option with the "no porn of any kind" thing.
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Offline Timo

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Re: Pornography
« Reply #32 on: March 21, 2012, 03:39:36 AM »
Define voluntary. Do you mean it's something they want to do? Or is it perhaps something they do as a despearte last resort to earn money?

I've only known a few people that have done porn.  And from what I gather, it was all what I would comfortably call voluntary.  As far as I can remember, three wanted extra money but didn't want to take like a job job.  (I wouldn't call them desperate.  They just weren't interested in waiting tables.)  Two were genuinely interested in the industry.  And one didn't want to leave California without at least giving it a shot.  She was kind of exited to sell her sexuality in general though.  She was also interested in doing the paid girlfriend thing, which set off all kinds of alarm bells for me when she ran the offer by me.  By comparison, porn seemed like a much more straightforward path. 

In all but 1 case, I think they just ended up doing solo stuff that I don't even know how to find or even if you can find it.  So yeah....

And how would viewing porn which some poor girl made out of desperation sit with you? (and others)

If I knew she was appearing in a film out of desperation, I suppose I'd have a problem with it at some level.  But I think it's awfully paternalistic to just assume that just because she is appearing in a pornographic movie she is some "poor girl" that is just "desperate" to get by or whatever.  It could just be that she enjoys sex and is comfortable with making a career out of it.

I mean, I guess I understand that my experience with the industry is sort of colored by the fact that I relate to it from this kind of a place of privilege, since it's something that some people I knew did while they were attending one of the best universities in the country.  And I'm sure that this is not representative of people involved in the industry.

Still, all in all, I'm cool with pornography.  I have no problem with people objectifying themselves or being objectified as long as they accept it.  I know for a fact that a lot of people get off on it. 


So yeah....
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Offline atheola

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Re: Pornography
« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2012, 03:56:21 AM »
I think most adult viewing porn are mature enough to sense when one of the participants is being coerced either physically, verbally or mentally and most of us are uncomfortable with such flicks although a certain percentage do get off on the power kick, butmainstream porn put out by the big production companies  aren't going to release to many "rape" flicks, but they are out there and not hard to find... Hey, watching preachers brainwash kids is FAR MORE disturbing than a gorgeous woman giving head to a guy hung like a small buffalo.
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Offline plethora

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Re: Pornography
« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2012, 05:34:41 AM »
I have no problem with it so long as everyone involved is consenting and of legal age. I don't think it is immoral or that porn itself objectifies anyone. Like Lucifer said earlier ... people objectify people.

I think people tend to simplify things and throw around blanket statements. Porn has many facets, takes on many forms and people view it (and perform in it) for many purposes and in many ways.

I personally don't lack anything in my sexual relationship with my wife. I have experienced (and continue to experience) just about every fantasy I ever had with her. However, there are some things that work best as a fantasy in porn than in real life. We do watch it together sometimes... and sometimes I watch it on my own and so does she.

We stay monogamous, we enjoy each other sexually and we also enjoy our own private fantasies... which is awesome.

Now... as is the case with just about everything else in the world ... some people can take it to unhealthy and harmful levels both as consumers and as people working within the industry.

As far as the industry goes, the government and authorities need to make sure the industry is being properly regulated... that any abuse or harm is reported to the proper authorities and action is taken to stop and prevent it.

As far as individuals go, they need to take responsibility for their actions. We can't blame porn if someone watches it and then decides to take action to harm themselves or others. The individual is to blame.

And how would viewing porn which some poor girl made out of desperation sit with you? (and others)

Speaking of how things sit ... ever take a crap at work or in a public toilet that had just been cleaned? Do you think the person who scrubbed that toilet before you went and literally shit all over their work it did it for fun or because they needed the money?

Were they forced to scrub the toilet? Not by any particular group or individual, no. It's likely their circumstances lead them to that being the best resource they had at the time to make money to get by. So what do we do about it? Should I feel guilty when I take a crap at work? Is it my fault that that person's circumstances are what they are? I think not.

Do some girls end up doing porn as a means to get money quick given their personal circumstances? Yes. But as long as no individual or group is directly forcing them to participate, then I have no reason to feel personally guilty. She made a choice based on her situation and the opportunities that were available to her.

... also, why do people always tend to focus on the women that participate in porn? Surely there are guys in the same situation.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 05:39:40 AM by plethora »
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Online One Above All

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Re: Pornography
« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2012, 05:41:05 AM »
... also, why do people always tend to focus on the women that participate in porn? Surely there are guys in the same situation.

You know how it is. Men are stereotyped as being horny 24/7.
I didn't point it out to avoid that discussion, but now I'm thinking "screw it".
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Offline Historicity

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Re: Pornography
« Reply #36 on: March 21, 2012, 05:50:13 AM »
I read somewhere, probably alternet, not sure, but Romania had a huge child molestation problem until they legalized child porn.. The rates of reported children getting raped dropped dramatically and it's believed the reason being is its that it's much safer sitting at home jerking off on a tissue than to be out actually raping kids.. makes sense on a certain level i suppose.

My problem with that if it is photos or movies then an actual child had to be raped to make it.  Well, the buyer didn't pay for the child to be molested, that's over and done with.  But by putting money into the market he is financing the production of the next film or photo shoot.  So he is paying for the next child to be raped.

It's like the rumored real snuff films -- which are also illegal.



Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Pornography
« Reply #37 on: March 21, 2012, 06:16:50 AM »
For various reasons, most people have a very wrong idea of what a pedophile actually is.  They presuppose that a pedophile is someone who's constantly "on the hunt", looking for victims, when most pedophiles are actually people like this poor slob.  (Text only, but probably NSFW anyway).

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?oid=3347526
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Offline Seppuku

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Re: Pornography
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2012, 06:59:03 AM »
OK. Based on that explanation Atheola I apologise for the -1 and will request Hal remove it.

I would like to say, however, that there is absolutely no justification for child pornography or even for actors to portray children. Of course, I am also completely opposed to any pornography. I believe it is completely debasing to men and women and does way more harm than is probably realised.

Before anyone plays the hypocrite card - yes, Christians probably view it as much as anybody. However, most (certainly the ones I know) take steps to stop the habit.

I think where people are forced into it it is a bad thing, but I believe very much in people's choices, so long as people aren't hurt in the process. Where people are forced into it, it is rape. The trouble is pornography isn't what's causing people into these situations, because if you take away the pornography you've still got men and women exploiting their bodies who have no other choice. But I guess that's why you walk into a legitimate porn shop and buy your porn there and not download it off the internet.

If people enjoy pornography then I don't want to stop them, just so long as they're supporting pornography that's legitimate. At least then they're not encouraging or supporting the exploitation of those in desperate situations. Of course, if we could work towards getting people out of those kinds of situations then that's even better. Reduce poverty is one step forward.
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Offline kymer

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Re: Pornography
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2012, 09:01:55 AM »
I am also completely opposed to any pornography. I believe it is completely debasing to men and women and does way more harm than is probably realised.


Oh geez, lighten up, will you. Porn is wonderful. You just have to find the right sort. It brightens up people's lives. Do you want people to be sad? Do you? I'm going to post some links to some really good stuff so you can see what I'm talking about.

HAL, am I allowed to post links to clips of women kissing but without taking off any clothes?

Offline Frank

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Re: Pornography
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2012, 02:08:04 PM »


And how would viewing porn which some poor girl made out of desperation sit with you? (and others)

Yeah. They look really desperate.

I thought this kind of thinking went out with the ark. Evil men luring poor virgins into porn. What planet are you living on? You do realise the big earners in porn are the female performers? I'll bet you married the first women you had sex with.
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Offline kymer

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Re: Pornography
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2012, 07:15:55 PM »
I'm a big fan of porn, but I've just come across (if you pardon the pun) this :



And this : http://www.thepinkcross.org/

And this : http://www.shelleylubben.com

And I'm shocked. I didn't realise it was like that. But I'm not against porn itself. A distinction has to be made between the hollywood / Vegas type of porn, and other types. It's like comparing hollywood movies with good, independent movies, and the same applies to the music industry. I feel bad about what I've just read but porn itself is good, if done nicely. Unfortunately often it's not.

Offline Seppuku

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Re: Pornography
« Reply #42 on: March 21, 2012, 07:29:09 PM »
It's those kinds of situations I don't like. If pornography is to happen it needs to be properly regulated and for people to be treated with the right respect and have their rights. I hope for the best for their cause, because what they're talking about is definitely wrong.
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Offline kymer

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Re: Pornography
« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2012, 07:38:07 PM »
Yes it really did put me off, Sep. I've heard stuff before about "mainstream" porn but I didn't know it was that common. I think from now on if I see something I like I'll try to find out about who made it first, before watching it properly. And amateur stuff. I don't understand how people can be into watching 5 guys and 1 girl (who the hell ever does that in real life?), or porn where it looks like the girl is in distress (even if it is pretend), I don't get that mentality. I'm not against a bit of rough (although it's not personally my cup of tea) as long as it's tasteful and not too rough, and certainly not if it's genuinely aggressive. It's like they're appealing to the lowest type of person, and it concerns me that there must really be a lot of juvenile males out there who appreciate it all and who have no idea what makes for good sex. I don't think porn itself is bad, it's just that a lot of it isn't tasteful, and when I'm looking for something to watch I always come across so much rubbish. It's hard to find the good stuff.

Offline Quesi

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Re: Pornography
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2012, 07:39:06 PM »
Frank, I respectfully disagree.  While there are certainly many women who enjoy their work in the sex industry, a small percentage of whom might be considered “big earners,” the sex industry continues to be a place where women are often exploited.  There are women who are forced into the sex industry against their will, though they probably represent a small percentage of those who work in porn.  Then there is the regular old exploitation that occurs on any industry with freelance workers and little oversight.  The women do the work, and then don’t get paid, or get paid less than agreed.  In the film industry, I imagine there are many unpaid auditions and free samples associated with getting any role. 

I know less about the porn industry than I do dancers and prostitutes, so I googled to find out what kinds of earnings a woman in the porn industry could expect.  While one source states that a woman can a pretty outrageous amount of money, looking at the breakdowns of most sources seem to make it look like a college kid who words a few weekends a month is going to make a hell of a lot more money than mom and dad are going to send her, but that a mother of three who has to pay rent, car payments, babysitters, and household expenses, is hardly going to make ends meet.   

 According to producer Seymore Butts, who runs his own sex-film recruitment agency, as well as producing sex films; "depending on draw, female performers who perform in both straight and lesbian porn earn more than those who do [just heterosexual scenes] usually make about US$200–800 while those who only do oral sex (blow job) usually only make about US$100–300 for the scene".[15] It was also noted in an interview conducted by Local10 news of Florida that individuals were offered $700 for sexual intercourse while shooting a scene of the popular series Bang Bus in 2004.[16] According to Videobox, a porn website, actresses make these rates: Blowjobs: $200–$400; Straight sex: $400–$1,200; Anal sex: $900–$1,500; Double Penetration: $1,200–$1,600; Double anal: $2,000. For more unusual fetishes, women generally get 15% extra.

Given that the porn star who I know best (Annie Sprinkle) made only 200 films in her almost 40 years in the sex industry, and given a woman is going to make an average of what looks like about $1000, that does not look like serious lifetime earnings. 

I’ve worked with quite a few (immigrant) sex workers who are aging out of the industry.  Maybe at the peak of her career, she brought home $40,000 or $50,000 annual of (mostly) untaxed income.  At 35 or 38 she’s got a kid in high school and 2 in junior high, and no matter how many hours she works, she can’t bring in $20,000 anymore. She lives in an NYC outer boro, speaks English as her second language, and lives with her three kids in a modest, two bedroom, 800 square foot apartment that cost her $800 a month at the peek or her career, but now costs her $1400 per month.   Out of desperation because of her declining earnings, she gets a minimum wage entry level position as a cashier, bringing home $250 a week.  She can’t even pay her rent on that.  She wants to get her GED, but her reading level in English is about 3rd grade level.  She wants help putting together a resume, but even a simple job application asks her questions that she cannot honestly answer if she is looking for a job outside of the sex industry.  She has no savings.  She hasn’t been paying into social security, so even if there is any left for you and me, she’s not going to get any. 

Yeah, maybe she should have planned better.  Maybe she should have though this all through when she was 24 and bringing in a good income.  But the sex industry doesn’t exactly prepare its workers to think long term.  Annie Sprinkle used to run workshops for sex workers, teaching them to save an get an education on the side while they were at the peek of their careers in the sex industry, but most sex workers don’t have access to those resources.

So what does she do at 38?  She can’t raise her kids on minimum wage.  And other than moving onto becoming a madam or a drug trafficker, there is really not much out there that is going to keep her and her kids in that 800 square foot apartment.

Is it exploitation?  Maybe.  But it is certainly a broken system.  It is a system that does not serve the women who populate the industry. 


(I see that a video was posted while I was writing.  I haven't watched it yet.)

Offline Quesi

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Re: Pornography
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2012, 08:16:16 PM »
Thank you for sharing this video.  I think that these women’s voices are representative of a subset of the industry, and that the experiences that they described were not what was visible in the final edits of the film that the viewers enjoyed.

I know that most atheists here might lose patience with the prayers and whatnot at the end, but in my experience, most people who have been victimized end up clinging to a deity as a coping mechanism.  And these women were indeed victimized by the industry.

I went to the website, and I was sad to see that although their mission is to get women out of the sex industry, they don’t seem to offer any tangible options for those exiting the industry.  I mentioned in my previous post, working with women leaving the sex industry who want to get a GED or get help with resumes or job searches or tangible assistance on issues ranging from financial planning to parenting to urgent issues like pending evictions is really hard.  Although we offer those services, (for immigrants, refugees and displaced people, a small percentage of whom are former sex workers)  there are no quick fixes.  This group, which focuses exclusively on getting people out of the porn industry, does not seem to even try.   

Offline Seppuku

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Re: Pornography
« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2012, 08:33:18 PM »
I know people tend to look down at people who think pixels are hot (animated porn), but from the sounds of it, it's what should really be encouraged in the porn industry - perhaps people who want a sexual drive could just get it from animation. More hentai, more 3D animations of sex and so on. Of course, I know it's not going to solve the problem because I suspect the women in those situations could be enticed into prostitution...or just have it rephrased as, being an 'Escort' to glamorise it a little bit. I guess it just means people who are enjoying it aren't caught up in the problem by inadvertantly supporting the horrible things that happen in pornography. Naturally, I'd much prefer it if the actual issue was solved directly. Support for people who are in desperate situations and much tougher regulations within the sex industry as a whole. It should be choice 100% and safe.

Just a thought on the subject. I guess at least with animation there's more flexibility for those of you with slightly more warped fantasies. I have the displeasure of knowing what tentacle hentai is. 0__0 But again, to each their own. A fantasy is just a fantasy and doesn't necessarily mean anything.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 08:40:26 PM by Seppuku »
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Pornography
« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2012, 09:01:40 PM »
so far only one female response (I think).

Any other ladies have a perspective on this they wish to share?
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Offline atheola

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Re: Pornography
« Reply #48 on: March 21, 2012, 10:51:17 PM »
Folks..life is a dirty business and it always has been. Women and men will always be exploited so pretending that is ever going to change is a fools wish. I was exploited as a young man and then later for my labor. The proliferation of cheap video cameras and the ability of anyone to upload anything they cook up means a lot more dirty bastards are exploiting more and more people, mainly young people than ever before, but sadly our shortsighted politicians think the quick fix is somehow banning bad behavior and people like santorum think all these problems can be prayed away.. That, as you all know is never going to happen.
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Offline Timo

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Re: Pornography
« Reply #49 on: March 22, 2012, 04:22:50 AM »
Thank you for sharing this video.  I think that these women’s voices are representative of a subset of the industry, and that the experiences that they described were not what was visible in the final edits of the film that the viewers enjoyed.

Yeah, though I come away feeling like this isn't so much a knock against pornography in principle.  What I take away from this is I think that porn needs to be unionized.  I can't help but think the same thing when I hear about how the actors are paid, verses what the content producers end up earning.

And Quesi, those figures you have for pay strike me as about right.  I know a woman who was in porn for something like 9 months or so.  She ended up making somewhere around 6 or 7 grand, all told, working every couple of weekends.  And yeah, that was great money for her.  But she was going to school full time and this was all supplementary income for her.  It definitely wasn't enough to live off of.
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Offline plethora

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Re: Pornography
« Reply #50 on: March 22, 2012, 04:54:35 AM »
Hold on a sec ... she described a scene with a dude called "Max Hardcore". That guy in particular is in jail right now for the type of porn he was producing. Google him up, there's a wikipedia article (I won't link to them here).

That guy's practices were humiliating and abusive and he was brought to justice.

If we look for extreme cases we will find them of course. But that's not the mainstream nor is this rampant throughout the industry.

I'm not belittling those cases where women were in fact exploited in some way or were victimized ... obviously I want to see justice where that is what has happened... but I hear a lot of wining in this video as if they were defenceless damsels in distress that were swept away and forced into a cycle drugs, money and porn. I call a lot of bullshit here.

What they are advocating for is ridiculous. It's like asking the music industry to be banned and fully shutdown because in some cases some band members take drugs and let their agents screw them over for their money.

Again, let me be clear, I'm not blaming the victim. That girl found herself on the set of a Max Hardcore production and I have no doubt she was  coerced, intimidated and victimized in that particular instance. I am glad that guy is in jail for his practices. But to say that anyone watching US porn industry porn is promoting sex slavery, sex trafficking and destroying lives is a bit too much. Sorry but that's bullshit.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Pornography
« Reply #51 on: March 22, 2012, 05:03:46 AM »
Porn itself is neither good nor bad. It can be dangerous or it can be relaxing. Because of it's potential for abuse it should remain heavily regulated. On a personal level I can say that if any of my daughters make an educated decision to perform sexual acts on camera for money then so be it.

However

If any of my daughters are coerced with drugs or threats of violence into performing sexual acts....people will die. 
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Offline plethora

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Re: Pornography
« Reply #52 on: March 22, 2012, 05:46:39 AM »
The video also starts with some bad stereotypes... "I had a typical porn background... broken home, I was a teenage runaway, I was in foster homes and mental institutions ..."

Really? This is the "typical" porn background? C'mon.

She doesn't strike me as someone who is prone to making good decisions in general, especially if she was mentally unstable. I'm sorry for what happened to her, I'm glad she has removed herself from something she wasn't enjoying and that the producer who abused her was jailed.

... but I see no good arguments in that video to consider the entire porn industry "evil" as she wants to portray it.
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Offline ungod

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Re: Pornography
« Reply #53 on: March 22, 2012, 06:31:58 AM »
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Offline ungod

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Re: Pornography
« Reply #54 on: March 22, 2012, 06:38:12 AM »
And one didn't want to leave California without at least giving it a shot. ..

A cum shot? (couldn't resist!)  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

"What good fortune for those in power that people do not think." - Hitler

Offline ungod

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Re: Pornography
« Reply #55 on: March 22, 2012, 06:43:24 AM »
so far only one female response (I think).

Any other ladies have a perspective on this they wish to share?

Oh come on! Your three headed god is all male. So is Jeebus. Since when were wimmen allowed a voice?
The Catholic and Muslim religions stance proves this - no wimmen priests, and wimmen need to be covered in black tents with just eye slits, otherwise they drive men insane with lust.
Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

"What good fortune for those in power that people do not think." - Hitler

Offline ungod

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Re: Pornography
« Reply #56 on: March 22, 2012, 06:59:13 AM »
If pornography is to happen it needs to be properly regulated .

Rick Sanatorium is going to do that. You should vote for him!  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Would you agree that, if properly regulated, porn videos should be required to have happy endings?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 07:30:40 AM by ungod »
Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

"What good fortune for those in power that people do not think." - Hitler

Offline ungod

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Re: Pornography
« Reply #57 on: March 22, 2012, 07:02:09 AM »

However

If any of my daughters are coerced with drugs or threats of violence into performing sexual acts....people will die.

But if your sons.........double standard here?   :laugh:
Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

"What good fortune for those in power that people do not think." - Hitler