Author Topic: Black people  (Read 1230 times)

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Offline Tero

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Re: Black people
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2012, 08:02:58 PM »
It was all fine till rap.

Offline Seppuku

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Re: Black people
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2012, 08:35:06 PM »
Quote
So what if it's hard to see who is being referred to in a generalisation? It's a generalisation, you're not meant to know. It's just a general observation. Countries have national psyches which give rise to certain characteristics, men tend to have certain characteristics, women too, and so do cultures. There's no point in being specific when the whole point of a generalisation is that it's general.

If I can't see what you're referring to then how do I know what you're talking about? Do I assume you mean ALL types of black people? Or certain black social groups? Or certain cultures or sub cultures dominated by black people.

Quote
Let's stop being politically correct and just admit that black folks are cool.

I'm not being PC.  :-\ I tend to say fuck political correctness, so I think you might misunderstand what I'm arguing...in fact there's a few things you've said that lead me to believe this, for example: you talked about this 'guilt' people have surrounding things like slavery and discrimination, I have none of it...I'm not in anyway responsible, so why would I? But if you were to talk about white people the argument would be exactly the same and I am white. If you were to talk about atheists, it'd be exactly the same and I am an atheist. Metalheads too. It'd also be the same for theists, I try not to assume what a theists is going to come here and throw at me, because it could be incredibly inaccurate and I'm just throwing strawmen their way. And when people do it to us, we end up criticising them for it, as strawmen are actually against forum rules.

When I tell somebody I'm an atheist or a metal head they immediately have an image of what I am and it may be completely inaccurate. I find when mentioning I'm an atheists I'm met with a whole array of misconceptions of what I am. I'm not offended by them as I can just correct those misconceptions, but I don't think over-generalisations helps with how people picture others.

I'm not saying lets try and be politically correct about what we do and say. Fuck that, it can do more harm than good. I wouldn't want anybody to not say what they felt because I might be offended by it. I'm saying that I avoid over generalising people as it can build up the wrong expectations, not only that, but I haven't a clue what you were talking about when it came to liking black people, at least not anything I could relate to.


At least with talking about somebody who's Spanish or English you narrow it down a bit, I mean there isn't a country called 'Blackland'.  ;)

Though, as far as narrowing down goes:

Quote
The british themselves (and the germans) are very orderly, and there's a real sense of having to do things "properly", following procedures.

I find this stereotype of the British to be kind of funny, I can't say I've met many orderly British people, I've seen some though. But jeez, I sure as hell ain't. ;)


Perhaps summarise is like this:
I don't give a fuck about political correctness, but I don't like forming strawmen about people I've never even spoken to.


However, the music you've linked makes it clearer, some of that music is pretty damn cool, though I don't like all of it. I'm more into the blues and particularly love the likes of Muddy Waters.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Black people
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2012, 09:02:25 PM »
Okay, I think I get some of what kymer is saying.

There are cultural values that are taught and appreciated in various groups, like being orderly (England) or being spontaneous (Spain), conforming (Japan) or being an individual (Australia), being on (clock) time (Germany) versus people time (Egypt). One thing I notice a lot is doing (US) versus being (Afro-Caribbean).

Given that there are these cultural values, I can see how there are sub-cultures that have other attributes that many people have, like rhythmic dancing or using poetic speaking styles, because those are encouraged and appreciated. 8)

The only problem I have is that once a characteristic is associated with a group, depending on whether that group is in power or not can determine whether that characteristic is seen as good or bad. For most of US history, "black" attributes were most definitely not positive. So many people in the US associate "black" cultural stuff with being a criminal, uneducated, etc. :(
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Offline kymer

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Re: Black people
« Reply #32 on: March 21, 2012, 08:48:59 AM »
Seppuku...

PC : We're all the same, there are no differences, la la la la la, Mozart is as funky as Sly

Generalising : We're different, there are exceptions and variations, but we are different, and patterns and tendancies can be seen

Overgeneralising : We're different and there are no exceptions or variations. All blacks love fried chicken and no white person can dance

All I'm doing is generalising.




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Offline atheola

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Re: Black people
« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2012, 09:07:46 AM »
Black Americans are far more culturally diverse than any ethnic group as best I can tell. Almost every afroamerican alive has a white relative somewhere in their ancestry not to mention a strong hispanic as well as native American  indian influence. Minorities in the US didn't have the same strong taboos against having children of mixed ethnicity as most white families had and many still have.
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Offline Samuelxcs

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Re: Black people
« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2012, 09:21:35 AM »
I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but black people are brilliant. They're so cool. The way they talk, the way they think, how they express themselves, I'm a big fan of them and their style. And of course the music.

Cool is something to do with temperature, not how good or whatever you may think cool means is. I don't know any other meaning of cool. They are not black people, at least not all of them. Most of them are brown. Yes they speak their minds but are their minds good? They are just more humans that plague the world and stuff on it just like 'white' people. (I don't know what colour 'white' people are but they are not white!) I hate the way they talk, just so annoying! Their style is not what I would like and the music is like (or is) mostly rap. I don't like rap, it is just noise to me. Rap is not even a form of singing, it is just a bad attempt at singing. I like opera more (no not stuff like the 'Go compare' song!) just more like the music for it.
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Offline kymer

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Re: Black people
« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2012, 09:24:05 AM »

Cool is something to do with temperature, not how good or whatever you may think cool means is. I don't know any other meaning of cool.

Don't you? Haven't you heard of the Fonz, James Dean, Danny Zucco? Could someone please teach this person what cool means.

Offline Seppuku

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Re: Black people
« Reply #36 on: March 21, 2012, 12:18:31 PM »
Quote
PC : We're all the same, there are no differences, la la la la la, Mozart is as funky as Sly

Generalising : We're different, there are exceptions and variations, but we are different, and patterns and tendancies can be seen

Overgeneralising : We're different and there are no exceptions or variations. All blacks love fried chicken and no white person can dance

All I'm doing is generalising.

Your definitions make no sense and are completely inaccurate. If you're generalising a race or a social group or even people with a certain skin colour, hair colour, hair cut, dress sense or whatever you're suggesting that there are little or no differences; you're taking one or more traits and applying them. YOU yourself said that black people are all very similar. I've been saying throughout that this isn't the case.

Generalising:
Quote from: Oxford Dictionary
make a general or broad statement by inferring from specific cases:

Overgeneralise:
Quote from: Oxford Dictionary
draw a conclusion or make a statement about (something) that is more general than is justified

General:
Quote from: Oxford Dictionary
-affecting or concerning all or most people or things; widespread
- true for all or most cases

To say:
"British people are orderly" is a general statement. It suggests that being 'orderly' is true for most British people. It's not suggesting they're different...if anything it suggests more that they're the same. Painting them with a brush. It might be a true statement if suddenly we knew, say, "83% of British people are orderly".


Quote
All blacks love fried chicken and no white person can dance

This suggests that:
All black people are the same in this respect.
And all white people are the same in this respect.

How on earth is that suggesting they're different? Are we talking in Orwellian doublespeak here? Peace is war? Freedom is obedience?
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Offline kymer

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Re: Black people
« Reply #37 on: March 21, 2012, 12:30:34 PM »
Seppuku, I'm not saying that every single black person is the same. I'm making a generalisation. Don't take it literally, it's just generalising based on observation. When I say "black people are..." I'm not saying all of them, I'm just saying that it is common to find black people who are...whatever. It would be ludicrous to say that they're all a certain way, but there are common things among them, common enough to justify the generalisation. Don't take it so literally.

The bit where I say that all blacks love fried chicken is, as is made clear, an example of evergeneralising, not an example of what I'm saying. I did that to make the distinction.

Offline Seppuku

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Re: Black people
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2012, 12:34:29 PM »
Reread my post.
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Offline kymer

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Re: Black people
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2012, 12:39:16 PM »
Reread my post.

Ditto. Your argument is against overgeneralising, but that's not what I'm doing.

Offline Seppuku

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Re: Black people
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2012, 01:01:32 PM »
Wrong.

Part of it is against your definitions, which includes over generalising. You said in your post that you were just 'generalising', I read that. That's why I made this comment:

Quote from: Me
"British people are orderly" is a general statement. It suggests that being 'orderly' is true for most British people. It's not suggesting they're different...if anything it suggests more that they're the same. Painting them with a brush. It might be a true statement if suddenly we knew, say, "83% of British people are orderly".

I took an example of something YOU said as an example of generalising, what you've also said you're doing. I took the definitions of each relevant word. The definition suggests that being orderly is true for MOST (not all) British people, by your statement. That is saying MOST are similar and MOST share this same trait. It's not saying they're different. Over generalisation is just the extreme of this, where by your definition it's 'all'.

Making generalisations suggests people are LESS different, because you're applying traits to the majority of the group you're talking about. And by your own admission:

Quote from: You
Black people exist in lots of different countries. But they are mostly very similar.

Meaning black Ugandans and black African Americans are mostly very similar. Black Portuguese and black Jamaicans are mostly very similar and so on. Given how different Uganda is to the US and how different Jamaica is to Portugal, it's difficult to see how they're mostly similar.

Yet, you want to say these generalisations mean that actually they're mostly different. That's contradictory. How can something be very similar and different at the same time? Hence, double speak.
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Black people
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2012, 01:28:40 PM »
Minorities in the US didn't have the same strong taboos against having children of mixed ethnicity as most white families had and many still have.

I don't know about this idea atheola. I guess I can concede that minorities in the USA are for the most part cool with having mixed families as long as those other side is a minority that is somewhat similar.
My experience has been that my folks, (and I am black, actually sort of caramel/red), are given pause when interacial family relations are entered into. A lot of black women I know absolutely hate to see a black man with a not black woman with a level of disdain for the relationship akin to what one would expect from a klan member.

-------
On another note I feel that moreso than mixing races, mixing cultures is something that has a tendency to make people uncomfortable. Cultures, in my opinion make for stronger ties than that of race. We often mistakenly equate race and culture as if the two of them cannot be mutually exclusive. We'd do well to see the bigger picture as doing so would help us to better understand the prejudices many of us all have and how to overcome them.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 02:05:53 PM by Truth OT »

Offline Timo

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Re: Black people
« Reply #42 on: March 21, 2012, 02:02:01 PM »
A lot of black women I know absolutely hate to see a black man with a not black woman with a level of disdain for the relationship akin to what one would expect from a klan member.

In fucking deed.  I remember really learning this when I dated a white girl.  I would get these salty ass looks from black women.  And it was funny because I didn't think anything about like an interracial thing when we first linked up.  She was Mexican.  My pops is Puerto Rican.  My moms is African-American and Cuban.  So it wasn't even like a mix to me.  We're all some arroz con pollo, tamales on Christmas niggas as far as I was concerned.

But I distinctly remember being stared at, at a Yoshinoya's in Santa Monica around that time.  I didn't talk to these people so maybe I just had a stain on my shirt or they didn't like the way she was dressed or something.  But, personally, I have no doubt that this interracial thing was their reason.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Black people
« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2012, 02:54:59 PM »
A lot of black women I know absolutely hate to see a black man with a not black woman with a level of disdain for the relationship akin to what one would expect from a klan member.

In fucking deed.  I remember really learning this when I dated a white girl.  I would get these salty ass looks from black women.  And it was funny because I didn't think anything about like an interracial thing when we first linked up.  She was Mexican.  My pops is Puerto Rican.  My moms is African-American and Cuban.  So it wasn't even like a mix to me.  We're all some arroz con pollo, tamales on Christmas niggas as far as I was concerned.

But I distinctly remember being stared at, at a Yoshinoya's in Santa Monica around that time.  I didn't talk to these people so maybe I just had a stain on my shirt or they didn't like the way she was dressed or something.  But, personally, I have no doubt that this interracial thing was their reason.
I make sure to smile at mixed-race couples to counter the hostility many get. (Gay couples, too.) Often they smile back and nod with an expression almost of relief, like oh, she gets it, she won't give us sh!t. As a black woman married to a white man, I do get it. I understand. I have gotten sh!t from black men, as if I was a commodity they were somehow being deprived of.

I say, "There is no shortage of single black women. Nearly all would love to be with a black man. Probably even you. Why don't you go find one of them?" Then they get nasty and call names. Proving that they are arrogant, ignorant losers and not worth any woman's time. :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline kymer

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Re: Black people
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2012, 04:02:57 PM »
Seppuku, with all respect, I think you're nitpicking the hell out of the point I'm making. All I'm saying is that generalisations can be made. I'm not saying anything extraordinary or scandalous, or anything which many people don't agree with, including black folks themselves. Why do you have such a major problem with generalisations?

Offline Tinyal

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Re: Black people
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2012, 04:09:43 PM »
... Why do you have such a major problem with generalisations?

I won't speculate with how Sep would answer, but for me, the basic, unavoidable problem with 'generalizations' is the fact that they are frequently wrong - and I'm not a fan of wrong things...

Otherwise - carry on!

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Offline kymer

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Re: Black people
« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2012, 04:20:07 PM »
There's nothing which by definition makes a generalisation wrong. We all make them.

British - uptight, orderly
Spanish - lazy, fun loving
Irish - boozers, violent
Germans - efficient, sexually weird
Japanese - sexually repressed and weird
Blacks - love fried chicken, can dance well, scream their heads off at funerals (nomoregodsforme, you tell them...you know)

etc.

People make generalisations based on observations and experience over long periods of time. It may not be politically correct but it's based on truth nonetheless. Viva la difference.

Offline changeling

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Re: Black people
« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2012, 04:51:37 PM »
^^^Those aren't generalizations, they are racist, bigoted  stereotypes.

Much like saying that all kymers must be inbred adolescents who give ignorance a bad name,
just because I know one who is.
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Offline kymer

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Re: Black people
« Reply #48 on: March 21, 2012, 05:02:45 PM »
Those aren't generalizations, they are racist, bigoted  stereotypes.


They're not racist, they're observations.

Offline Seppuku

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Re: Black people
« Reply #49 on: March 21, 2012, 06:01:06 PM »
Quote
There's nothing which by definition makes a generalisation wrong

Which means you're able to direct me to some sources that provide evidence that all or most British people are uptight and orderly or
 Spanish people are lazy and fun loving, Irish are violent and boozers and so on.

Why do I say this? Because by definition generalisations require all or most cases to be true. But you say these are based off of your observations. Well, my observations are different to yours so both of our observations can't work as accurate generalisations, which suggests you need more than mere biased and limited observations to ascertain that these points are indeed true. Hence evidence. It's what we tend to ask when Christians suggest that the bible is true. I don't know how many British people could be considered uptight, so I'm not about to make a generalised statement about how uptight we are...by my experience, we're not. But if it turns out 73% of us are, then I'll accept that.

Quote
Seppuku, with all respect, I think you're nitpicking the hell out of the point I'm making.

Because you're inaccurate and you keep contradicting yourself.

Quote
Why do you have such a major problem with generalisations?

My original point was that I found it difficult to decide whether you like a really broad group of people because 1) there's no doubt a number of horrible people among them you don't like (or 'dicks' as I referred to them) 2) There's so much variation that you can't pinpoint those traits you love.

Of course, you wanted to argue against that and you went on about your generalised views of people and suggesting that within those generalisations people are mostly very similar. I completely disagreed. Black people are mostly very similar.

So pretty much the answer to your question is 'because I think you're wrong'. You later contradicted yourself too, which just makes it confusing. I can understand why people make generalisations, but the problem with making generalisations is that they're often inaccurate, as Tinyal has said.

But the reason I made my original statement and opinion is because I genuinely don't think you could pin point a trait where you could say, "I love black people". I couldn't figure out what traits you were high lighting, were you talking about black people in Africa? In America? In Europe? In Asia? Because there's a LOT of ground to cover. It genuinely made absolutely no sense to me.

If I believe you can't hate black people because you don't know them, you're just taking a generalised view and basing your opinion of them on that as opposed to individuals then I have to believe that you can't like black people because you don't know them, you're just taking a generalised view and basing your opinion of them on that as opposed to individuals. Why is it some people think positive discrimination is okay?
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Offline kymer

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Re: Black people
« Reply #50 on: March 21, 2012, 06:35:41 PM »
I have no incentive to convince you, Seppuku. They're my observations and experiences, as well as that of many people, even if they're not yours. If you don't agree, then you don't agree. If your observations are different to mine, that's great, good for you. I don't mind, it doesn't bother me. Lots of people make generalisations and that's just the way it is. Sometimes they're negative, sometimes they're positive, but at the end of the day that's what people do based on their personal observations and experience. C'est la vie.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Black people
« Reply #51 on: March 21, 2012, 06:53:28 PM »
I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but black people are brilliant. They're so cool. The way they talk, the way they think, how they express themselves, I'm a big fan of them and their style. And of course the music.
It can’t just be me. I find the OP’s post vacuous. I am considering the award for the worst post and this is up there with the leaders.

Seppuku had it exactly right in this post:
Black people are black people. Some are right dicks, others are pretty cool. No different from anybody else.  ;D
Here’s someone getting excited about “old people”. The intellectual level is about the same… except this is funny because we know he’s being satirical.

Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline kymer

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Re: Black people
« Reply #52 on: March 21, 2012, 06:56:52 PM »
Graybeard, black folks are great. You may not like them but I do.

Offline Seppuku

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Re: Black people
« Reply #53 on: March 21, 2012, 06:58:49 PM »
What about his post suggests...oh wait never mind, you're just trolling.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Black people
« Reply #54 on: March 21, 2012, 06:59:20 PM »
Graybeard, black folks are great. You may not like them but I do.
Your conclusion is irrational. The suggestion is offensive. I would like an apology.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline kymer

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Re: Black people
« Reply #55 on: March 21, 2012, 07:06:49 PM »
Your conclusion is irrational. The suggestion is offensive. I would like an apology.

I apologise. Black people aren't great.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Black people
« Reply #56 on: March 22, 2012, 01:51:40 PM »
kymer, we here at WWGHA like statements to be as accurate as possible and based on evidence instead of easy stereotypes based on narrow personal experiences. Positive stereotypes are still dehumanizing, because they keep you from seeing people as complete human beings with all the characteristics of humanity. If that is how you interact with black people, no matter what they are like or where they are from, you see what you want to see and hear what you want to hear.

You have a cardboard, two-dimensional idea of black people, or rather of "black people" that is more like a cartoon than reality. Nice but not real. It is a cool image, part booty-shaking Soul Train, part friendly Cosby show, part sensitive Oprah, part tasty fried chicken and greens, part emotional gospel church service with a lot of shouting and falling out, part classy Harlem fashion show.  Of course you have black friends who say this is true. Many black people promote that image, because it is much better than the alternative! The alternative can get you denied a job promotion, harrassed in nice stores-- or shot in the back.

Suppose you had mainly negative experiences of black people, say, you had been bullied, beaten up and taunted by a group of black kids growing up. You did not have black people as friends and black people were not invited over for dinner, etc. And suppose you had been told by your parents and others that black people were violent, drug addicts, lazy, dirty, noisy, etc. Their music was vulgar, low class and full of cursing and sexual references.
 
It would be very hard for you to get past the negative image of black people to see real human beings. You would look at the world and see some black cultural attributes, like certain types of music, styles of dancing, etc in negative way.  You would wave away any positive stuff about black people as not representative. Blacks who aren't terrible people are just wannabes trying to act white.

You would have a cardboard image of black people-- as if they were all actors in a bad gangsta rap video: macho types abusive of women and dismissive of kids and old people, menacing, angry, cursing, committing crimes, covered with jailhouse tatoos, dealing drugs and having sex all the time. Or the loud, slutty welfare queen with kids by different men,  a closet full of designer clothes and a fancy car.

I don't know anyone like that, but a lot of white people have those images. Or maybe it's a racist cartoon from the 1920's: childish, silly, ugly people with jet black skin, big white eyes, wild hair, exaggerated nose and lips, ragged clothes, chicken bones and watermelon rinds lying around. And they just looooove to sing and dance. And work as servants for white people. Not nice, and equally not real.

For most minority groups, given a choice of stereotypes, we pick the more positive one. The "noble long-haired Indian in touch with nature" is way better than the lazy, drunken, impoverished, uncivilized savage. The "pious, constantly praying, hardworking, long-suffering, family-oriented Mexican" is way better than the gangbanging lowriding cholo looking to rape white girls, or the fat latina screaming in Spanish at her hundred brats. And the "nerdy, brilliant, smiling quiet Asian" is way better than the sneaky, inscrutable, treacherous heathen chinaman who will rip you off, or the opium addicted bar girl who will give you an STD.

Would you rather be seen as "a good 'ol truck drivin' country boy bendin' them guitar strangs and lovin' his flag and the lord" and "the hell yeah coal miner's daughter with the Christmas lights up all year round", or dirty, stringy-haired, ignorant, toothless, redneck trailer trash living on disability checks? I know which I would pick. &) :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline ungod

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Re: Black people
« Reply #57 on: March 22, 2012, 02:38:48 PM »
Here's something I don't understand - since there exists a Florida law that lets you shoot someone you feel is threatening to you, even if 1. that person is a child 2. who is calling out HELP! HELP! 3. running away from you 4. is only armed with a bag of candy and a can of pop.
If you can do this, and not be charged with anything, why, oh why aren't Blacks taking advantage of this (Bush) law, and shooting "threatening" Whiteys?

Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

"What good fortune for those in power that people do not think." - Hitler