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Offline jakec47

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Re: jakec47's beliefs
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2012, 06:38:05 PM »
A few of you have remarked on the part about the sumerian kings and how it said tens of thousands of years. Of course people have not lived that long. That sentence doesn't say they do, it says the the Sumerian list of kings says that those kings lived that long. Obviously showing myths of the Sumerians.

And velkyn...You should really stop looking to the biased evolutionists websites and get your information unbiasedly. The book I quoted from was written by an athiest who went out to disprove God and Jesus and the Bible and he actually went out into other countries and everything to find the answer and he did find an answer. Christianity is not a blind faith but one rooted in historical fact. I charge you to actually look to the Christian side of things before you continue slamming Christianity. After all what is it morally that Christians stand for...good things, not bad things. You have no idea how much it saddens me that you continue to be in such unbelief, I'm sorry, I tried to tell you the truth but even if I gave you all the evidence that would prove God and Jesus and the Bible you would still not believe. Because its not a matter of you can't believe its a matter of you won't believe. Because then you will be accountable for what you do. And you can't have that, so you deny.

Offline jeremy0

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Re: jakec47's beliefs
« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2012, 06:39:14 PM »
I can live with that..   :D
"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger."
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Online nogodsforme

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Re: jakec47's beliefs
« Reply #31 on: May 01, 2012, 07:12:48 PM »
There is no such thing as an evolutionist, jakec47. There are people who accept scientific facts, and people who don't.

Amazingly enough, most people who don't accept scientific facts use the products of that very same science every single day without much problem. You obviously use a highly complex computer, probably a satellite guided cell phone and a car that runs on petroleum.

You probably accept that CSI (DNA, forensic anthropology, etc) is the best way to determine who committed a crime or what kind of remains are in that shallow grave. You probably have a water supply that is treated to kill harmful organisms. You eat food from crops made resistant to pests by genetic alterations. You might have been vaccinated against various illnesses--even if you haven't, you benefit because other people have been vaccinated and can't infect you.

All products of the same scientific method that you want to deny.

At least the Amish, who also deny science, are not hypocrites. They don't use cell phones, cars or computers.

ps Any news update on how Noah got all those million or so species of animals, birds, reptiles, insects, etc into a gigantic,  unseaworthy wooden boat, kept them fed, clean, and healthy for several months while packed in unsanitary, unventilated, dark and stormy conditions, and then returned them all to their proper habitats?

It would have to be dark, because one match in all that methane and kabloom, up goes the forage storage in a blast of glory. I am surprised the Noah story isn't used by PETA as a prime example of how NOT to treat animals....

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« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 07:22:30 PM by nogodsforme »
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Zankuu

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Re: jakec47's beliefs
« Reply #32 on: May 01, 2012, 07:20:27 PM »
A few of you have remarked on the part about the sumerian kings and how it said tens of thousands of years. Of course people have not lived that long. That sentence doesn't say they do, it says the the Sumerian list of kings says that those kings lived that long. Obviously showing myths of the Sumerians.

So I take it that you don't believe the myth in the Bible about Noah living to be 950 years old?
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Offline Seppuku

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Re: jakec47's beliefs
« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2012, 07:55:49 PM »
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A few of you have remarked on the part about the sumerian kings and how it said tens of thousands of years. Of course people have not lived that long. That sentence doesn't say they do, it says the the Sumerian list of kings says that those kings lived that long. Obviously showing myths of the Sumerians.

Why not? The bible has people that live for an unrealistic number of years, why can't the Mesopotamians. What makes a person living for 100s of years realistic when somebody lives for 1000s. In order for this to be possible, there has to be divine intervention or some kind of amazing evolutionary advantage (which you wouldn't accept...nor would we due to lack of evidence of such a thing) or amazing technology (which I'm sure you wouldn't suggest either). If these people were able to live longer than the people of the bible, then again, it seems the gods of the Mesopotamian religion are more powerful than Yahweh. Heck, although science doesn't suggest anybody's live anywhere near as long as the Mesopotamian kings but at least it's accepting that humanity goes back much farther back, so in a way the Mesopotamians get points for a more realistic approximation of how long man has walked on our earth.


You perhaps picked my least important point. So what about the others?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 07:59:50 PM by Seppuku »
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Offline screwtape

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Re: jakec47's beliefs
« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2012, 06:54:34 AM »
Because its not a matter of you can't believe its a matter of you won't believe. Because then you will be accountable for what you do. And you can't have that, so you deny.

jake,

Pop quiz: what is the 9th commandment?

I don't get offended by much.  But this^ is one of the few things that offends me.  What do you know about velkyn, me or any other atheist that makes you think you can make this statement?  Are you a mind reader?  Have you met velkyn (or me or any other atheist)?  Have you seen a survey of atheists where they say that is why they don't believe in gods?  Have you observed velkyn (or me or any other atheist) behaving in such a way as to make you think accountability is a problem for us?  Is velkyn (or me or any other atheist) running amok more than any one else in society? 

You see, jake, I hear that same line a lot from xians.  And I look at my life and wonder how that could possibly be the case.  I am married.  I don't cheat on my wife.  I drink only in moderation. I don't do drugs.  I don't steal.  I haven't killed anyone.  I don't attend wild sex parties.  I have a steady job.  I have no problem accounting for myself.  So for me, no accountability is of no benefit. 

From what I know of velkyn, she is in more or less the same boat.  So a deficit of accountability would be useless to her as well.

In fact, most of the people I know are either atheists or only marginally religious.  None of them behave in a way that would be shameful.  IF there was a god and that god was the god described by xians, the only basis for any of them going to hell would be they don't believe in a god. 

So I am perplexed by your stupid accusation. Tell me, jake, just why would you make such a bold claim?  The best answer I can come up with is you are a bigot, repeating the bigoted slander of your bigoted church. 

The answer to the quiz, jake: thou shalt not bear false witness.  Why does lying seem to be part and parcel of being a xian these days?
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Offline Historicity

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Re: jakec47's beliefs
« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2012, 07:54:05 AM »
And velkyn...You should really .... I charge you to .... You have no idea how much it saddens me...
She beat you up pretty bad that you can't address the evidence but had to descend into an ad hominem rant.

Offline velkyn

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Re: jakec47's beliefs
« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2012, 09:52:28 AM »
A few of you have remarked on the part about the sumerian kings and how it said tens of thousands of years. Of course people have not lived that long. That sentence doesn't say they do, it says the the Sumerian list of kings says that those kings lived that long. Obviously showing myths of the Sumerians.
just like the myths in your book.  Oooh, Adam lived to be 900!  Isn’t that special &)
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And velkyn...You should really stop looking to the biased evolutionists websites and get your information unbiasedly. The book I quoted from was written by an athiest who went out to disprove God and Jesus and the Bible and he actually went out into other countries and everything to find the answer and he did find an answer.
Hilarious. I do love to see a Christian make the claim that their book was by an “atheist” as if that would make me believe in claims with no evidence. So much for your claims of being unbiased.   Let’s see, Norman GeislerWiki.  Don’t see anywhere he claims to have been an atheist.  I do see where he’s another OneTrueChristian who forms his own  religion when others don’t agree with him.  Now, Josh McDowell, well, he claims to have been an agnostic.  Maybe he was, but that doesn’t’ mean that any of his claims about what he supposed “found” have any evidence to support them. Jake, if you think there is evidence that supports McDowell’s claims, show it.  I’ve read McDowell’s books and I know what they say.   He did not find any evidence at all. “Evidence for Christianity” is a regurgitation of his former books (always nice to get people to buy the same stuff more than once).  McDowell has claimed that Christianity was “unique” and that made it historical, which is hysterical and shows he is ignorant about other religions.  He has claimed that the only answers to the bible are “lord, liar or lunatic”, and he so cutely forgets “legend” aka myth, aka just a story.  He uses sources that have been shown to be forgeries, Josephus; he tries to claim that rabbinal works mention JC but they only say a man practicing sorcery was hanged, nothing about a messiah or a cruxifiction.  He tries to laim that any mention of a Christian is evidence that JC existed, which would mean that any mention of any worshipper of any god would mean that particular god exists.  Do they, Jake?  Since we have temples and worshipers of other gods, are they as good as yours? 
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Christianity is not a blind faith but one rooted in historical fact.
repeating a lie doesn’t make it true, Jake.  Sorry. 
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I charge you to actually look to the Christian side of things before you continue slamming Christianity.
I was a Christian so I know exactly what Christians claim,  all sorts of sects of them. 
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After all what is it morally that Christians stand for...good things, not bad things.
Hmm, and we have right now Christians on the forum who say it is perfectly fine to kill children, to commit genocide, to ask for the deaths of homosexuals, to kill non-believers, etc.  I don’t find those good things at all, Jake. Do you?  Pity if you do. 
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You have no idea how much it saddens me that you continue to be in such unbelief, I'm sorry, I tried to tell you the truth but even if I gave you all the evidence that would prove God and Jesus and the Bible you would still not believe.
  I think all that makes you sad is that you aren’t blindly believed and you’ve gotten no external validation from the forum.  You have not even tried to tell the truth.  You have tried to make baseless claims and expect others to believe them when they know they are not true.  I have facts, Jake, you have stories.  And I do love the usual whining excuse by a Christian, that atheists wouldn’t’ believe no matter what.  That’s a lie, Jake, an utter outright lie on your part to salve your feelings.  Your god hates lies, false witnessing, and liars, Jake, even if they think they are doing the right thing by lying *for* this god (Romans 3).   
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Because its not a matter of you can't believe its a matter of you won't believe. Because then you will be accountable for what you do. And you can't have that, so you deny.
  Aw, and some threats and more lies about how atheists are only wanting to rebel against your imaginary friend.  It’s very telling, Jake, that you obviously ignored my entire post to show your myths are just that myths. You have no answer to the question of how your nonsensical myths are any more “realistic” than others.   It’s a shame that you think you can do this and not be called the willfully ignorant man that you are. Sticking your head in the sand and claiming something doesn’t exist doesn’t make it go away.  Christians have no agreement on when the “flood” happened.  There is no evidence for this flood at all.  The lies told about how “all” cultures have flood myths are easily shown.  It’s not suprising that all you have left are more lies and personal attacks. 
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: jakec47's beliefs
« Reply #37 on: May 02, 2012, 10:10:02 AM »
My beliefs are as follows:
  - I believe anything the Bible says
So, you are quite convinced that there are unicorns, dragons, and cockatrices[1] wandering the earth?

Isa:34:7: And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

Psalms:91:13: Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.

Jer:8:17: For, behold, I will send serpents, cockatrices, among you, which will not be charmed, and they shall bite you, saith the LORD.


What do you think of throwing golden idols at bats? Is it effective?

Isa 2:19  And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
Isa 2:20  In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;
 1. 
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline jakec47

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Re: jakec47's beliefs
« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2012, 06:22:17 PM »
PM sent - poor quoting - too much re-posted material. Please read my PM and follow the quoting guidelines.

Thanks


I don't deny science or the scientific method, but any attempt to say God is not real by scientists or otherwise I will readily deny.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 06:31:45 PM by HAL »

Offline jakec47

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Re: jakec47's beliefs
« Reply #39 on: May 03, 2012, 06:26:22 PM »
PM sent - poor quoting - too much re-posted material. Please read my PM and follow the quoting guidelines.

Thanks



I agree that I can not make this statement as I have. I can say this may be the case. But you tell me these things about yourself and you appear good to me, but it is not man's standard that matters, it is God's and since you have used the 9th commandment I'll ask this, have you ever broken any of the ten commandments? If I may be so bold as to ask this?
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 06:31:04 PM by HAL »

Offline jakec47

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Re: jakec47's beliefs
« Reply #40 on: May 03, 2012, 06:38:57 PM »
So, velkyn you have read "Evidence for Christianity"? If so, I commend you, I was wrong you have all the evidence that I can give you, I can argue nothing more than what is in that book. He is a greater man than I. And I do not think it is good to kill infants, or genocide, or to kill homosexuals, or nonbelievers. Any Christian who believes that has issues. And you tell me that I have not even tried to tell the truth, I have, you have destroyed what I claimed but I still believed it to be true. So I commend you. Yes God hates liars and all such things but I tell you all that if I have lied I have done so in ignorance, and I apologize. From the way things are appearing I must not be very good at arguing points, so I will withdraw and ask that if there is any need to ask the question, what would God say or do, then ask me because that is something I would know, I may not be able to prove, but I can understand what he has revealed to me. As much as I know at least. I do not know all.

Offline Zankuu

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Re: jakec47's beliefs
« Reply #41 on: May 04, 2012, 01:32:40 AM »
I realize your reply was for velkyn, but I feel compelled to address it.

And I do not think it is good to kill infants, or genocide, or to kill homosexuals, or nonbelievers. Any Christian who believes that has issues.

Good on you, jake. You have a better moral compass than Yahweh of the Bible does, and that is admirable. Now that I think about it, I'm not sure how many innocent children God murdered both directly and indirectly, but it's a hell of a lot. I actually have my Bible in front of me (All my red sticky tabs indicate murder). Let's see what atrocities involving children I've got marked:

Drowned all the infants during the Noahic flood.
Murdered all the children in Sodom and Gomorrah.
Allowed Moses to order the death of all the male Midianite children.
Killed Judah's firstborn son by his own hand.
Had Jephthah's daughter sacrificed.
Butchered every firstborn child in Egypt.
Commanded the Israelites to destroy all the babies of Heshbon and Og.
Murdered the children of Ammon.
Mutilated the youth of Nineveh.
Executed all the unborn lives still in the wombs of the Ephraim women.
And ripped apart the pregnant Samaritan women carrying child.

And those are just the atrocities I'm aware of. There's no telling how many killing sprees Yahweh went on that I've left out, AND these are just the murders of children! Don't get me started on rape or the slaughtering of innocent men and women or homosexuals or nonbelievers. Hell jake, even innocent cattle wasn't spared Yahweh's lust for gore and death.

And you tell me that I have not even tried to tell the truth, I have, you have destroyed what I claimed but I still believed it to be true. So I commend you. Yes God hates liars and all such things but I tell you all that if I have lied I have done so in ignorance, and I apologize.

Look, I realize you're defending something that you believe in your heart to be 100% true. And why wouldn't you? "The Word of God is Truth" and "God is Love" has probably been pounded into your head since before you could actually read or write. That's certainly how it was for me. But you've got to admit, all the shit that has been discussed in this thread like the absurd life spans, talking snakes, the ruthless butchering of innocents- they all raise good points against the Bible being realistic and holy. Which isn't to say the Bible doesn't have some great things in it. Proverbs is beautiful. But don't ignore the ugly and heinous scripture in the Bible. Doing so would be doing yourself a disservice, jake.


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Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: jakec47's beliefs
« Reply #42 on: May 04, 2012, 02:05:08 AM »
And I do not think it is good to kill infants, or genocide, or to kill homosexuals, or nonbelievers. Any Christian who believes that has issues.
That's odd, because your God certainly does. As Zankuu rightly pointed out, God does all of these things, or orders them to be done, in the Bible. You, personally, have standing orders from God, through the Bible, to kill homosexuals and nonbelievers. If your moral compass tells you that to do such things is wrong, then you are saying that God is, in fact, wrong. Why is it that our modern human society has better morals (by your own implicit admission) than God, from whom morality is supposed to emanate?
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And you tell me that I have not even tried to tell the truth, I have, you have destroyed what I claimed but I still believed it to be true.
I realize this was addressed to Velkyn, but see what you just did? You said that even though Velkyn (among many others) have destroyed your claims, you still believe in them. You admit that you believe in something, even while admitting that the reasons for doing so are garbage. Insisting that something is still true in spite of being shown that it is not is dishonest. [/quote] Yes God hates liars and all such things but I tell you all that if I have lied I have done so in ignorance, and I apologize. [/quote] No, I don't think so, since after having been given the opportunity to make and defend your claims, and personally admitting to having them destroyed, you still believe in them. Also, it's fair to point out that God lies too. Does God hate himself?
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From the way things are appearing I must not be very good at arguing points
Wow! Honesty!
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so I will withdraw and ask that if there is any need to ask the question, what would God say or do, then ask me because that is something I would know,
What a humble statement. "If you ever want to know the will of God, just ask me". 
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I may not be able to prove, but I can understand what he has revealed to me.
Which you should know by now means nothing to us.
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As much as I know at least. I do not know all.
So you know some of the will of God, but not all of it, just that which he has revealed to you, and you can't prove it, but we should take your word for it? Sure, what could go wrong there? Sounds totally reliable, fact based, and verifiable to me.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline velkyn

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Re: jakec47's beliefs
« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2012, 08:51:23 AM »
So, velkyn you have read "Evidence for Christianity"? If so, I commend you, I was wrong you have all the evidence that I can give you, I can argue nothing more than what is in that book. He is a greater man than I.
Oh that’s sad, to claim that that liar, Josh McDowell is “greater” than you.  Yep, I’ve read that book and it’s quite a piece of garbage.  Let’s look at one of his arguments:  the lord, liar or lunatic.  McDowell leaves out “legend”.  There is no evidence for a magical man/god at all.  And we’ve had plenty of such things claimed in all sorts of myths.  Take Herakles (Hercules) for instance.  Oh the claims of how this demi-god was around, interacting with the Greeks and doing all sorts of amazing aka miraculous feats.  Were there very strong men in ancient times?  yep, that’s the way to bet. Were there sons of Zeus around?  No evidence for this at all.  Just like your god and his “son”. 
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And I do not think it is good to kill infants, or genocide, or to kill homosexuals, or nonbelievers. Any Christian who believes that has issues.
Ah, the OneTrueChristian claim combined with the willful ignorance of what your god has commanded in the bible.  I do like to that you dont' agree with your own god and bible but it certainly shows that you make up your own god.  Unfortunately, pretending things aren’t there doesn’t make them vanish. 
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And you tell me that I have not even tried to tell the truth, I have, you have destroyed what I claimed but I still believed it to be true. So I commend you.
  Wow, good to know that you believe in lies no matter what.  For all of the times that theists have tried to claim that they have open minds and atheists do not, they sure show that they are the most close-minded of all.
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Yes God hates liars and all such things but I tell you all that if I have lied I have done so in ignorance, and I apologize.
  You have lied, ignored the facts presented to you and lied again.  So your apology doesn’t stand at all. 
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From the way things are appearing I must not be very good at arguing points, so I will withdraw and ask that if there is any need to ask the question, what would God say or do, then ask me because that is something I would know, I may not be able to prove, but I can understand what he has revealed to me. As much as I know at least. I do not know all.
You can claim that your god revealed something to you but any claim that it is from a god or that anything you say is valid true or real has yet to be supported by other than personal anedotes.  Your claims are the same as any other theists and there is no reason to think you are some special snowflake with the only “right” answers.  Your god is just one more self-projection of your own desires and hatreds and you want to give them validity by claiming “God agrees with me aren’t I special!”  Like every other Christian.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: jakec47's beliefs
« Reply #44 on: May 04, 2012, 10:09:37 AM »
I agree that I can not make this statement as I have. I can say this may be the case.


So is that a retraction?  An apology?

But you tell me these things about yourself and you appear good to me, but it is not man's standard that matters,

Of course man's standards matter.  Man's standards drive "god's" standards.  Slavery is only immoral because of man's standards.  yhwh's standards were tolerant of slavery.  Why is "thou shalt not own people" not one of the 10 commandments?  yhwh wastes 4 commandments on fidelity to him, but cannot spare even one to tell people it is wrong to own each other.  Tells you where yhwh's priorities are.  And since we have figured out owning other people is wrong, why has yhwh, or any church, not updated the commandments?   You'd think if jesus H was there to "fulfill the law" he would have rectified the situation.  But no.  He told slaves they needed to be good, obedient, meek slaves for their masters.[1]

God's values, my ass.

it is God's and since you have used the 9th commandment I'll ask this, have you ever broken any of the ten commandments? If I may be so bold as to ask this?

You may.  But it is completely irrelevant to the point.  The point is you made a completely douchey statement that was inflamatory, slanderous and goes against your own alleged values.  So don't even try to make this about my imperfection.  You might want to take a hard look in a mirror.  Just watch that plank in your eye doesn't break the glass.


 1. Eph 6:5-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%206:5-8&version=NIV
1 tim 6:1-2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%206:1-2&version=NIV
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Offline jakec47

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Re: jakec47's beliefs
« Reply #45 on: May 07, 2012, 05:42:42 PM »

So is that a retraction?  An apology?

You may.  But it is completely irrelevant to the point.  The point is you made a completely douchey statement that was inflamatory, slanderous and goes against your own alleged values.  So don't even try to make this about my imperfection.  You might want to take a hard look in a mirror.  Just watch that plank in your eye doesn't break the glass.

It is an apology, sorry. And I'm sure that God did not condone slavery, perhaps it is misunderstood that he did, I mean he did bring the Israelites out of the land of Egypt, because they were slaves, so he freed them.

And you tell me to take a look hard in the mirror, I have, I have broken all 10 commandments numerous times, that was when I realized I cannot save myself because once I die that is it I do not have the power to do anything else. So I believed in Jesus and asked him to cleanse my sins, after I had confessed them, now I do not sin nearly as much as I used to because he gave me a new heart where I do not desire to sin, like I used to, now I abhor sin. I just sinned today and was so downcast because of it. Luckily God does not forsake me. So I have taken the plank out of my own eye that I why I can see clearly to remove the plank out of others eyes. It has nothing to do with my own righteousness, because I am not righteous it is Jesus Christ that is righteous living in me.

Offline screwtape

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Re: jakec47's beliefs
« Reply #46 on: May 08, 2012, 06:56:29 AM »
It is an apology, sorry.

Thank you.

And I'm sure that God did not condone slavery,

Dude, why are you denying what is right in front of you, in plain language, in the bible?  That really does not answer my point, does it?

...perhaps it is misunderstood that he did, I mean he did bring the Israelites out of the land of Egypt, because they were slaves, so he freed them.

Riiiiight.  But they were special people, his chosen ones, his little semitic darlings. He let them, nay, commanded them to perform what we would now call ethnic cleansing on the greater canaan region, which is kind of against about half of the commandments.  So, yhwh does make exceptions to the rules, which would be relevant if there was a rule against owning people. 


I have broken all 10 commandments numerous times,

You've killed numerous people?

 
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Offline velkyn

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Re: jakec47's beliefs
« Reply #47 on: May 08, 2012, 10:08:34 AM »
It is an apology, sorry. And I'm sure that God did not condone slavery, perhaps it is misunderstood that he did, I mean he did bring the Israelites out of the land of Egypt, because they were slaves, so he freed them.
No evidence this at all.  No hundreds of thousands of Israelites doing anything in Egypt and then leavign, massive destruction in their wake. And your god repeatedly condones slavery in the bible.  It is sad that you can’t bear to tell the truth about this and sad to see you lie so ineptly.
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And you tell me to take a look hard in the mirror, I have, I have broken all 10 commandments numerous times, that was when I realized I cannot save myself because once I die that is it I do not have the power to do anything else.
Making idols?  Murder? Seems like more falsehoods being told here as a way to be a wannabee martyr.  As for you being unable to “save yourself”, your bible has a great bit about how no one can and your god gives out grace aka salvation on a whim.  With that, no one can know if they are saved or not, no matter what they do.
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So I believed in Jesus and asked him to cleanse my sins, after I had confessed them, now I do not sin nearly as much as I used to because he gave me a new heart where I do not desire to sin, like I used to, now I abhor sin. I just sinned today and was so downcast because of it. Luckily God does not forsake me. So I have taken the plank out of my own eye that I why I can see clearly to remove the plank out of others eyes. It has nothing to do with my own righteousness, because I am not righteous it is Jesus Christ that is righteous living in me.
  Sins are made up nonsense based on the very human rules created by *humans*.   Humans can own up to their mistakes and forgive themselves.  No god needed.  And Hilarious that you are arrogant enough to be sure that you and you alone have no plank in their eye.  You are just one more Christian self-projecting as god, claiming that anything you say is “true” is approved by god.  And if this god is within you, sure is funny how it is evidently too impotent or imaginary to actually do something about those “sins”. 
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Offline jakec47

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Re: jakec47's beliefs
« Reply #48 on: May 08, 2012, 06:13:14 PM »
Making idols doesn't have to be making some stone image and worshipping it, it could be as simple as liking Batman more than God, if I look to Batman as my "idol" then I am making him an idol. Setting him up above God Himself.

As far as murder goes I have never killed someone but Jesus explained in Matthew 5:21-22 that “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell." Since God looks at the heart it is possible to just want to murder someone or to imagine killing them and that is committing murder, I have wanted and imagined killing people I hated.

Same idea goes for adultery, just to look at a woman or man with lust in your heart it to commit adultery. Matthew 5:27-30. 

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Re: jakec47's beliefs
« Reply #49 on: May 08, 2012, 08:03:00 PM »
jake, are you able to address this problem?
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline freakygin

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Re: jakec47's beliefs
« Reply #50 on: May 08, 2012, 08:18:01 PM »
Since God looks at the heart it is possible to just want to murder someone or to imagine killing them and that is committing murder, I have wanted and imagined killing people I hated.

So...  With just Imagining things, it does count!  &)

That should work both way right? Since God is just.
Then, all christian have to do is just imagine that they're doing good things and it still counts.

Well.. That explains a lot...
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Offline thunderridge

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Re: jakec47's beliefs
« Reply #51 on: May 08, 2012, 08:42:45 PM »
jakec47 is obviously a SDA.

Offline screwtape

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Re: jakec47's beliefs
« Reply #52 on: May 09, 2012, 06:51:07 AM »
Making idols doesn't have to be making some stone image and worshipping it, it could be as simple as liking Batman more than God, if I look to Batman as my "idol" then I am making him an idol.

That's bullshit. The point was not about idols or little stone carvings or liking one fictional character more than another.  It was about worshiping other gods, which the hebrews believed existed.  In the wizards' duel between pharoah's magicians and moses, how do you think the pharoah's magicians did actual magic?  Other gods empowered them.  Which begs the question - why can't anyone do real magic like they did?

As far as murder goes I have never killed someone but Jesus explained in Matthew 5:21-22 that ...

That's bullshit too.  Utter nonsense. 

god is now saying you cannot get upset with people?  Please.  yhwh was a wrathful god whose name was Jealous[1].  He couldn't go one chapter in the OT without killing someone or demanding the execution of an entire nation.  And now he demands I cannot even have bad thoughts about some asshole at work who makes my day longer and harder without being in danger of hell?  What a fucking hypocrite.  This is the stupidest, most useless god ever.  You'd have to be some kind of imbicile to worship this hump.  Worshipping Batman makes more sense.

Or is god saying that since I've already done the sin in my head I might as well go ahead and kill the fool in reality? That seems more in line with Old Testament yhwh.

Since God looks at the heart it is possible to just want to murder someone or to imagine killing them and that is committing murder, I have wanted and imagined killing people I hated.

So now not only does god demand perfect action, but perfect thought.  Not even buddhist monks can control their brains/ thoughts for very long and they train for this all their lives.  It is just not how we work.  If this is really what your god wants, then he is shit out outta luck and so are we.  He has set us up for utter failure. 

Same idea goes for adultery, just to look at a woman or man with lust in your heart it to commit adultery. Matthew 5:27-30.

also bullshit.  These ideas you get about what god wants or thinks, they make you crazy.


Your post only answered my very last point.  I made others that were actually more important and harder to answer.  Please get on that.
 1. Ex 34:14
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Offline velkyn

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Re: jakec47's beliefs
« Reply #53 on: May 09, 2012, 09:39:47 AM »
Making idols doesn't have to be making some stone image and worshipping it, it could be as simple as liking Batman more than God, if I look to Batman as my "idol" then I am making him an idol. Setting him up above God Himself.
Unfortunately, the bible doesn't say that, and it's a modern interpretation.  You'd think a god would have made itself clear, wouldn’t you?

And Jake, I do expect you to either acknowledge that your claims about your god being against slavery and there being Israelite slaves in Egypt are wrong or rebut my argument. 

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As far as murder goes I have never killed someone but Jesus explained in Matthew 5:21-22 that “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell." Since God looks at the heart it is possible to just want to murder someone or to imagine killing them and that is committing murder, I have wanted and imagined killing people I hated. Same idea goes for adultery, just to look at a woman or man with lust in your heart it to commit adultery. Matthew 5:27-30.
  Yes, I know that verse.  It does make more sense, but it also shows that Christians do indeed fail constantly at even trying to fulfill the commandments.  All of them.  And per your bible, you are supposed to.  Jake, do you believe that only grace can save you or do works?   
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Offline jakec47

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Re: jakec47's beliefs
« Reply #54 on: May 09, 2012, 04:31:20 PM »
jakec47 is obviously a SDA.

Interesting theory but I'm actually a Nazarene. Officially that is, but I like to think of myself unaffiliated with any denomination, I am a Bible Christian.

Which begs the question - why can't anyone do real magic like they did?

You know I have heard stories. My mother had a friend who knew a witch, and she went to the witches house and said stuff was floating all around the house. I think there are "magic" if you can call it that, but it is power from Satan, anyone who is said to receive power from these "gods" is really receiving it from Satan.

So now not only does god demand perfect action, but perfect thought.  Not even buddhist monks can control their brains/ thoughts for very long and they train for this all their lives.  It is just not how we work.  If this is really what your god wants, then he is shit out outta luck and so are we.  He has set us up for utter failure. 

You are exactly right! We can never do what God requires of us, that is how far we are from God who is perfect. That is the whole point of Jesus Christ's death and resurrection, alone we can do nothing, but with Jesus we can do all things.

Unfortunately, the bible doesn't say that, and it's a modern interpretation.  You'd think a god would have made itself clear, wouldn’t you?

God doesn't have to say it, he assumes we are not idiots. It obviously means that.

And Jake, I do expect you to either acknowledge that your claims about your god being against slavery and there being Israelite slaves in Egypt are wrong or rebut my argument. 

I would like to do that but I would like you to tell me why you think he is for slavery. Because I never got that impression when I read.

Yes, I know that verse.  It does make more sense, but it also shows that Christians do indeed fail constantly at even trying to fulfill the commandments.  All of them.  And per your bible, you are supposed to.  Jake, do you believe that only grace can save you or do works?   

Yes there are alot of Christians who fail constantly, if they continue to sin constantly then that means they are not Christians, this is made clear in Hebrews 10:26-27, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." True Christians can sin, if they do it will not be deliberate and they will be extremely sorrowful of it. It actually seems impossible to keep yourself from doing all the things I said before but with Christ it isn't.

When I was in high school I hated my band director, I was in band and played the Trumpet and he put me down to the lowest trumpet level, 3rd, it was like the harmony, not the best part, I was better than that I should have been 1st trumpet, the solo. He did alot of other stuff and essentially I hated him, I even imagined killing him in horrific ways. I continued to hate him even after high school, the thought of him made me burn with fury. When I was saved that hatred I have disappeared, I no longer hated him but I forgave him, and now I am eager to see him again to tell him that. He knew I hated him, because he hated me as well. Point is, we are saved only by grace but the evidence that we are saved are the works. Faith without works is dead.

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Re: jakec47's beliefs
« Reply #55 on: May 09, 2012, 09:58:43 PM »
Worshipping Batman makes more sense.


I would consider worshipping a god if he looked like Batman. Doesn't worship usually involve getting down on your knees?  :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline screwtape

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Re: jakec47's beliefs
« Reply #56 on: May 10, 2012, 06:38:20 AM »
You know I have heard stories. My mother had a friend who knew a witch, and she went to the witches house and said stuff was floating all around the house.

bullshit.  A friend of a friend of friend.  Soooo unreliable.

I think there are "magic" if you can call it that,

bullshit.  You do not actually think there is magic.  You know there isn't.

...but it is power from Satan, anyone who is said to receive power from these "gods" is really receiving it from Satan.

I cannot fart lout enough to express how I feel about this statement.  First of all, satan is bullshit.  Second of all, xians got satan wrong.  Third of all, if satan is doling out magical powers, where are all the satanists doing actual magic and how do I sign up?  The answer is nowhere and I can't.  Because satan isn't doling out jack shit.  There is no magic, there is no satan, and the story of moses and the magicians is bullshit.


You are exactly right! We can never do what God requires of us, that is how far we are from God who is perfect.

It is funny.  You agree.  Yet somehow the inescapable conclusion that should come to you, has escaped.  God is not just. This system is not fair.  It is rigged.  It is like taking a class where the only way to pass is maintaining an average of 27,000%.  Of course, there is no possible way to score a 27,000% on any test, but if you blow the prof, he'll let you pass, no matter what grade you got. 

That is the whole point of Jesus Christ's death and resurrection, alone we can do nothing, but with Jesus we can do all things.

So it is a set up, an extortion con.  yhwh sets an impossible goal with infinite torture as the consequence of failing to meet that goal. However, he gives you jesus H and says you have a choice, when there really is no choice at all.  So really, yhwh is holding a gun to your head and somehow you are calling it free will and acting as if there is a choice. 



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Offline velkyn

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Re: jakec47's beliefs
« Reply #57 on: May 10, 2012, 08:57:24 AM »
God doesn't have to say it, he assumes we are not idiots. It obviously means that.
  ROFL.  No, Jake, it does not “obviously mean” that.  And you stomping your feet and insisting it does is funny but doesn’t make it true.  Your god fails at communication and Christians like you have to make up what you are sure he “really” means.  So much for you, “bible Christian” with your myths.
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I would like to do that but I would like you to tell me why you think he is for slavery. Because I never got that impression when I read.
  Ah, the usual attempts to delay the inevitable and the usual claims that only your “impression” is right, always with no evidence.  We’ve gone thought this before Jake, but I will again just to underline your inept attempts at deceit.  Your god gave laws about slaves and considered them nothing more than property.  It says that non-Israelite human beings were slaves forever, only Israelites had the chance for indentured servitude (Leviticus 25).  It has that a father can sell his children into slavery (Exodos 21). Real “family friendly” there.  And all of these are prefaced by God telling these laws direct to Noah to give them to the people, just like those “10 commandments” that so many Christians love to think are somehow “different”.  Your god said that a slave has to choose between family and freedom (Exodus 21).  It never said that slavery was wrong, not your god and not your supposed “messiah”.  Paul never said that slavery was wrong or called out the Roman Empire on their use of it which would have be exactly the time to do so.  Paul supports slavery, Ephesians 6, 1 Timothy 6.  And whoever the author of 1 Peter said
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1 Peter 2: 18 Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 19 For it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because they are conscious of God 20 But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
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Yes there are alot of Christians who fail constantly, if they continue to sin constantly then that means they are not Christians, this is made clear in Hebrews 10:26-27, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."
Yawn, more OneTrueChristian claims.  Please do show that you are the OneTrueChristian, Jake.  Still waiting for evidence of this, and not you stroking your own ego.  This little tidbit from Hebrews sums up the lies that Christians love to tell about how everyone can see their god in the universe, when forgetting that most, if not all, religions claim the exact same thing and all with no evidence.
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True Christians can sin, if they do it will not be deliberate and they will be extremely sorrowful of it. It actually seems impossible to keep yourself from doing all the things I said before but with Christ it isn't.
oh, so if *you* sin, it’s not deliberate. lovely excuse there, Jake.  And it seems that even with Christ it’s impossible since you’ve said you still sin.   
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When I was in high school I hated my band director, I was in band and played the Trumpet and he put me down to the lowest trumpet level, 3rd, it was like the harmony, not the best part, I was better than that I should have been 1st trumpet, the solo.
Oh I’m sure &)
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He did alot of other stuff and essentially I hated him, I even imagined killing him in horrific ways. I continued to hate him even after high school, the thought of him made me burn with fury. When I was saved that hatred I have disappeared, I no longer hated him but I forgave him, and now I am eager to see him again to tell him that. He knew I hated him, because he hated me as well. Point is, we are saved only by grace but the evidence that we are saved are the works. Faith without works is dead.
I love how some Christians are so proud that they forgave someone that they need the external validation. :) look at me, how great I am to “forgive” someone.  Nice to see that you use the usual lie that chrsitians do that only they can somehow do good things since they were magically “saved”.  Alas, Jake, many people who are not “saved” do good works and for no more reason than they like to, not needing any divine stick and carrot.  I’m glad you do think that you are only saved by grace, because that is one more instance where Christians disagree, with some prating on about “free will” and others sure that they are special snowflakes that have been personally chosen by their god. 
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