Santorum: I can't decide

[Boots]

I can't decide whether I want him to win the nomination.  If he doensn't win, that gives me a slight tinge of hope for the future in that enough people see The Crazy and are scared enough to not vote for it.

If he DOES win, it'll be him vs. Obama, and The Crazy will be made public in the debates/general election.  Will enough people be alarmed at The Crazy to treat it as it should be (shunned), or will they embrace The Crazy and send us 5 steps closer to theocracy??

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[Samuelxcs]

If it will be better than Obama being president I would certainly vote for it. People just need to give The Crazy a chance.

[Nick]

I can't believe he has made it this far.  It's just nuts.  I'd like to see him as the Rep nom but sh*t if he actually won what a nightmare.  Romney is not much better but at least he can put 2 and 2 together (unless his magic underwear is too tight).

[ParkingPlaces]

In 2000, I worried about George II, and rightly so. Santorum scares me even more. I'd rather we loose to Romney than to that guy.

Please don't bring Gingrich into the discussion. I just ate a late breakfast. My tummy can handle just so much.

[Nick]

Santorum's campaign sign should read...Santorum 1012 AD

[Death over Life]

For me, if we want to talk about debate wise, I honestly think Paul vs. Obama would be the best scenario for great debating. Obama vs. Romney will be easy on Obama, and Obama vs. Santorum would be easy as well.

Now, before anybody else bashes me for being a Paul supporter, I'm talking about debates, not the nomination for who wins Presidency.

[flapdoodle64]

The Republican field this year is composed mostly of gross, obscene and obviously insane candidates, with the exception of Romney, who appears somewhat reality-based.  And yet Romney displays absolutely pathetic debating and interview skills...he doesn't possess the kind of style or charisma the American people desire. 

I have to wonder if The Fix is in for Obama.  Because it looks as  if the Republican Party does not even want a Republican president.

Obama is the perfect president for the Republican Party, in that he governs exactly as a Republican president would, thus giving the Republican Congress everything they want, and yet the rank-and-file still believe Obama to be a liberal, a socialist, a peace-monger, and a secret Muslim.  Thus, the rank and file will keep their campaign contributions coming in to protect their guns, fetuses and Bibles. 

[kaziglu bey]

I can't decide whether I want him to win the nomination.  If he doensn't win, that gives me a slight tinge of hope for the future in that enough people see The Crazy and are scared enough to not vote for it.

What scares me even more that if he is nominated, it means he could be the next president. I agree however that having enough people who are crazy enough to vote for him is also quite alarming..

If he DOES win, it'll be him vs. Obama, and The Crazy will be made public in the debates/general election. 

It's already been made quite apparent in public that he is insane. I think more and more people are realizing that.

Will enough people be alarmed at The Crazy to treat it as it should be (shunned), or will they embrace The Crazy and send us 5 steps closer to theocracy??

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

I doubt he will end up getting the nomination. Romney's strong showing so far is a clear indication to me that at least most republican voters possess enough cerebral cortex to realize that Romney, in spite of being a joke for many reasons, is the least dangerous of the Republican candidates. If Romney ever launches any Nukes, it will be because he did something stupid, like thinking that he was just entering the password to his Facebook account. Can you imagine someone as actively delusional as Santorum with the nuclear codes? It would be really scary. More scary than George II.

I think that Obama is likely to easily defeat whichever candidate is chosen for the GOP ticket, precisely because, in spite of his own faults, he does not have those of the Republican candidates. He is measured in his actions, willing to compromise, cool tempered, open minded, tolerant, compassionate, and well spoken amongst many types of audiences. I almost feel bad for Romney, in that he's like a drunk stumbling blindly through a maze in the darkness, and happens to stumble in the proper direction at each turn, emerges successfully, and then thinks that he must have some apparent skill in blindly and drunkenly navigating a maze, and because there are people cheering him on the whole time.

But seriously, Romney vs President Obama in a debate would really be sad to watch. It would be like a terrier puppy vs. a ravenous wolverine.

[Nick]

All good points but my fear is that the Dem base won't show up like they did in 2008.  Reps have worked hard to make sure voting is hard (IDs, college kids not eligible, etc.)  Big money is also in the game this year.  Put all that together and bad things could happen.  Look at the dem no show vote in 2010.

[flapdoodle64]

In a way, we're better off with a Repub pres than a Dem.

Because when Bush was president and leading the US in unwinnable wars, driving the economy off a cliff, and torturing thousands, the liberals at least talked about it and agreed all those things were terrible.  There was some resistance, weak though it was, to all those horrible things.

But now that we have a guy who speaks intelligably and who Sean Hannity hates as a president, Obama can do everything that Bush did and more, and liberals won't say a peep and dont' even have the nads to try to mount a primary challenge. 

Repubs are more overt and obvious in their nastiness.  Dems do the same thing, but hide behind liberal platitudes and excuses. 

Liberals and the Left had a common foe under Bush.  But Obama has splintered the opposition.  For some reason, Obama can do everything Bush would have done, yet liberals are able to pretend it's better when a Democrat does it.  I absolutely do not understand why liberals think things are better under Obama, yet they do.

Another Republican president might allow the majority to see the presidency for what it truly is...a position subserviant to the Pentagon and the Plutocracy. 

[relativetruth]

Liberals and the Left had a common foe under Bush.  But Obama has splintered the opposition.  For some reason, Obama can do everything Bush would have done, yet liberals are able to pretend it's better when a Democrat does it.  I absolutely do not understand why liberals think things are better under Obama, yet they do.

Another Republican president might allow the majority to see the presidency for what it truly is...a position subserviant to the Pentagon and the Plutocracy.

Can you give an example where Obama did something that either Bush senior or jnr would have done?

[flapdoodle64]

Can you give an example where Obama did something that either Bush senior or jnr would have done?

1. Preclude single payer health care even before the debate begins. 
2. Escalate the war against the Afghans.
3. Summarily execute OBL w/o no trial, no independent autopsy.
4. Summarily execute a US citizen (Sept. 2011). 
5. Hold a prisoner of conscience in solitary confinement and naked.  Hold the same prisoner incommunicado (Brad Manning).
6. Drone strikes in Pakistan, Yemen.
7. Re-Appoint Robt. Gates as SOD upon taking office.  I guess because the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were going so fucking well!
8. Turn the economy over to the same guys who gave us the 2008 meltdown.
9. Bomb Libya.
10. Keep Gitmo open.

[Frank]

This is what I like about you Americans. You have almost no trust in your electoral system. I'm amazed you manage to govern yourselves at all.

[ParkingPlaces]

This is what I like about you Americans. You have almost no trust in your electoral system. I'm amazed you manage to govern yourselves at all.

Sadly, we don't. It's just an illusion, perpetrated by the voting machine companies, who didn't want to go out of business just because we weren't a democracy any more.

[relativetruth]

Can you give an example where Obama did something that either Bush senior or jnr would have done?

1. Preclude single payer health care even before the debate begins.

No - because they would not even have proposed any health care reforms at all

2. Escalate the war against the Afghans. after

No - because they would still be in IRAQ.

3. Summarily execute OBL w/o no trial, no independent autopsy.

No - Because Bush jnr had the chance but decided he could not be bothered and went after Saddam instead.

4. Summarily execute a US citizen (Sept. 2011). 
5. Hold a prisoner of conscience in solitary confinement and naked.  Hold the same prisoner incommunicado (Brad Manning).

No Comment

6. Drone strikes in Pakistan, Yemen.

No - They probably would have sent in human troops

7. Re-Appoint Robt. Gates as SOD upon taking office.  I guess because the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were going so fucking well!
8. Turn the economy over to the same guys who gave us the 2008 meltdown.
9. Bomb Libya.
10. Keep Gitmo open.

What would you have done?

What would McCain/Palin have done?

How long do you think it would take USA/the world to recover from four years of Romney or Santorum?

I am British and it is frustrating that I cannot even influence this in the slightest!!

[kaziglu bey]

Santorum's campaign sign should read...Santorum 1012 AD

Requesting permission to steal this.

[Nick]

Granted

[kaziglu bey]

Yay! Thanks Nick!

[atheola]

I'm not going to defend all of Obama's downfalls, but I will say that very shortly after he was elected the electorate took a hard swing right and took a big chunk of the center along then came 2010 when the rubes ran the table.
The lies came out on full force so Obama made a calculated risk of moving to the right so he wouldn't lose the entire center. The more right he moved the further right the entire GOP and tea party moved. He's effectively painted the right into a corner of batshit crazy with nowhere to go but the funny farm where life is beautiful all the time and they'll be happy to see those nice young men in their clean white coats....

[jaimehlers]

1. Preclude single payer health care even before the debate begins.

This is only true in the sense that Bush or his father would have gone much further than simply not including single-payer health care.

2. Escalate the war against the Afghans.

Which, I will remind you, we were stuck with.  It's all well and good to criticize, but sometimes you only have bad options.

3. Summarily execute OBL w/o no trial, no independent autopsy.

4. Summarily execute a US citizen (Sept. 2011).

Source?  I'm quite serious here, I have heard nothing of this.

5. Hold a prisoner of conscience in solitary confinement and naked.  Hold the same prisoner incommunicado (Brad Manning).

Someone who passes hundreds of thousands of pieces of classified information to an international organization is not a "prisoner of conscience".  If this had been to Iran or North Korea, we would call him a spy and possibly a traitor.  I would like to see a source on the "held naked" part.  I agree that solitary confinement when he hadn't officially been tried was an overreaction.  To be blunt, though, given the situation, I don't really blame them for the overreaction, and they did correct it once people started complaining seriously about it.

6. Drone strikes in Pakistan, Yemen.

I believe Clinton did this as well.

7. Re-Appoint Robt. Gates as SOD upon taking office.  I guess because the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were going so fucking well!

I do not consider this to be much of a problem.  Gates inherited most of those problems and to his credit, worked to turn them around.  And before you start criticizing too harshly, note that he did say in no uncertain terms that it would be incredibly stupid to start another Middle East land war and strongly recommended against any action besides air strikes in Libya.

8. Turn the economy over to the same guys who gave us the 2008 meltdown.

Source?  Again, this is not something I know about.

9. Bomb Libya.

Again, something Clinton did.

10. Keep Gitmo open.

This was a stupid move on Obama's part.  He promised to shut it down; he should have abided by that promise.

[flapdoodle64]

What would you have done?

What would McCain/Palin have done?

How long do you think it would take USA/the world to recover from four years of Romney or Santorum?

I am British and it is frustrating that I cannot even influence this in the slightest!!

Regarding Obama's summary execution of OBL:

1. We don't even know for sure it was OBL because there was no independent ID of body and no autopsy.  We don't know for sure what OBL's role in 9/11 was because there was no trial.  And if whacking OBL solved anything, why is the USA still in Afghanistan?  Whacking OBL was a meaningless cowboy stunt, exactly the type of crap we criticized Chimpy McFlightsuit for. 

2.  There are lots of people that could have been appointed SOD besides Gates, a guy who was losing 2 wars.  Historically, keeping an SOD from a rival party and a previous admin is unheard of in the USA, this is the first an SOD has carried over in such a manner.  Symbolically, Obama tied his administration to gross malfeasance and heinous war crimes by appointing Gates. It was an obscene act on Obama's part.

3. McCain/Palin would have governed very similar to Obama, perhaps not as violently however, since people percieve Repubs as being more bloodthirsty. 

4. You think the Obama admin is helping the world? How's the economy in Europe? You guys are tied to a drowning man, the USA. 

In the USA this year, we have Dems and their mouthpieces invoking the image of insane Republican boogie men, as though imagining Godzilla as president will make me feel good about having King Kong instead. 

When you vote for an neo-con sellout like Obama simply because you are afraid of what his rival in the other party will do, this is not a choice...this is simply extortion, and I won't play it anymore.  Ok with me if others want to play, but I'm simply pointing out that there is another way of looking at this. 

Religionists do the same thing.  They have an insane, negligent, sadistic, insecure, vane and murderous god they have to promote...so they whistle up a devil, who's allegedly even worse, and hope we will fall into the thinking error of false dichotomy. 

[atheola]

So don't play.. It's one less eenie meenie mimey moe to do. You're never going to find a president that does everything you want. The job includes legal murder in most cases and if you think Mrs Paul's would hesitate to order slaughter you're nuttier than I thought.

[Nick]

Actually, I do not feel that I am settling
 on one evil over another.  I think Obama has done a remarkable job considering what he had put on his plate from day 1 in office.  He has given the US a world view unlike any other president and 4 more years with an improving economy will set him up as one of our better presidents.

[flapdoodle64]

Lot of straw men on this thread. 

Who said I support Paul?
Hell no, I think that's a Trojan Horse of the most obvious kind. I said nothing about Paul. My point is simply that Obama has done everything a Bush would have done.  Obama is Bush's 3rd term.

Someone also whistled up Clinton.  Clinton? So just because Clinton did something it's right? Clinton was not a good president...he's resonsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi kids and he signed NAFTA. Saying that Clinton bombed Libya does not justify the bullshit bombing of Libya. 

I'm just trying to challenge the concept that voting for Obama is the only alternative for thinking person.  It isn't. 

A repub pres will only offer cosmetic differences and may be net gain in that resistance to a repub might be greater than to Dem pres.

Obama is certainly no friend of liberals.  He's thrown us under the bus at every turn. 

Regarding the 2008 financial crisis, the name is Timothy Geithner:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Geithner

Obama appointed this crook to the Fed.

Look, I'm sorry for puncturing your illusions gang, but Obama is no better than Bush.  IMO, in a way, he's worse...because I tend to think Bush was stupid, a useful idiot for the guys like Geither and Cheney...whereas I think Obama is cynical, that he knows the deal, and is just mouthing the platitudes he thinks we'll buy.  Obama is a smart guy, and he knows better.  Bush was a devout theist.

[atheola]

So what do you suggest liberals do? Not vote and hope santorum or mittens don't doom us all to depression, theocracy and never ending stupidity?

[flapdoodle64]

If a mass of formerly democratic voters refuses to vote for Obama it will undermine the legitimacy of his win.  Obama had huge masses turning out in 2008. 

If a mass of former democratic volunteers refuse to canvas and phone bank, if they refuse to dontate money, it is more likely to send a message to the Dmocratic party than simply holding one's nose and pretending that Obama hasn't thrown us under the bus.

My god, to think I donated money and pounded the pavement for Obama in 2008!  All so that he could lock Bradley Manning up naked in solitary and whack US citizens w/o due process!  It makes me burn with anguish!  If the Democratic Party does these things, there is no point in a Democratic Party anymore! 

Santorum or Romney won't be much worse than Obama.  Obama was certainly no better than Bush, and possibly worse, due to the fact that so-called liberals haven't the stones to confront Obama's fascist bullshit. 

In fact, maybe it would be better if everything were out in the open anyway.  SCOTUS certainly isn't backing us, look at 'Citizens United.'  Let's drop the veneer, let's show the world how we really are.

[ungod]

Of all the great and necessary freedoms listed in the First Amendment, freedom to exercise religion (not just to believe, but to live out that belief) is the most important; before freedom of speech, before freedom of the press, before freedom of assembly, before freedom to petition the government for redress of grievances, before all others.

- Santorum

http://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/24/campaigning-against-the-modern-world/

Same source -

I once wrote that Santorum has one of the finest minds of the 13th century

[atheola]

Flappy..why don't you REALLY tell us how you feel about Obama? C'mon..you know you have a soft spot somewhere in there..

[Frank]

Santorum or Romney won't be much worse than Obama.

Tell that to women. Are you insane?

You wouldn't have to worry about 4 years of Santorum. By the end of the second year we would all be radioactive ash.