Role models for kids?

[rickymooston]

Here is one a Chinese friend mentioned: nick vujicic.

What sort of qualities?

I think  a set of role models should come from all kinds of walks of life.

The role of a role model should be, to inspire the kid to explore their potential.

[velkyn]

nick vujicic, a man who ran to god since he was born without limbs and makes excuses for this god.  I find that being just one more human being desperate to think that their suffering has a "meaning".  Nothing inspirational here or worthy to be  role model. 

[Hatter23]

nick vujicic, a man who ran to god since he was born without limbs and makes excuses for this god.  I find that being just one more human being desperate to think that their suffering has a "meaning".  Nothing inspirational here or worthy to be  role model.

Unless it is..."Heh, I can turn this infirmity into cash through being a con man." It is a way of thinking outside of the box. I mean if you want con men as role models.

[orpat]

Role model indeed. I guess people with no disabilities would find it hard to digest his success.

[rickymooston]

nick vujicic, a man who ran to god since he was born without limbs and makes excuses for this god.  I find that being just one more human being desperate to think that their suffering has a "meaning".  Nothing inspirational here or worthy to be  role model.

You may find the idea of "having a purpose" to one's disability offensive but making the best with what you have and having meaning in life DESPITE your disability is not offensive. And, it is a fact of life that you can sometimes make lemonade out of lemons. I have a learning disability, ADHD. It is certainly a disadvantage and yet, perhaps because of it, I've had some advantages as well  or I can argue this.  People notice him because he has no arms or legs, he is gifted speaker with a positive message was apparently able to 

 
I think, you are looking at this with a anti-religious bias and thus, seeing that he, being religious, does indeed "credit God", you over look the power of his message to people.

He had to overcome some significant emotional barriers:
1) He went through more than his share of bullying and depression
2) Instead of feeling sorry for himself, he realized he could in fact do things such as complete a degree and he reached out to people.
3) He reaches out to people and convinces them to make the best of themselves, whatever the barriers they face may be.

I think that's more than inspirational. Perhaps its sad that he didn't become a track star or didn't use abilities he didn't have.

Being resourceful and making the best out of what you have is more effective than feeling sorry for himself. He had to overcome something many of us couldn't think possible.

My friend who saw him speak in China has no interest in religion or God. She thinks that's all hogwash. However, she had her own life struggles as we all do. Now she thinks, that her struggles may not look so bad compared to his. If he could grin and bear it, so could she.

Role model indeed. I guess people with no disabilities would find it hard to digest his success.

I disagree. Most of the people he reaches out to don't have disabilities. Anybody willing to guess what sort of emotional barriers he had to overcome to make meaning of his life and be happy, can appreciate him as a guy.

[velkyn]

nick vujicic, a man who ran to god since he was born without limbs and makes excuses for this god.  I find that being just one more human being desperate to think that their suffering has a "meaning".  Nothing inspirational here or worthy to be  role model.

You may find the idea of "having a purpose" to one's disability offensive but making the best with what you have and having meaning in life DESPITE your disability is not offensive. And, it is a fact of life that you can sometimes make lemonade out of lemons. I have a learning disability, ADHD. It is certainly a disadvantage and yet, perhaps because of it, I've had some advantages as well  or I can argue this.  People notice him because he has no arms or legs, he is gifted speaker with a positive message was apparently able to 

Rick, I find lying and making believe that one has a purpose to one's disability to be offensive.    That is not the same as "making the best" of a bad situation.   The message this man is spewing is powerful but it's still a lie. 

My husband is bipolar.  It does come with some things one could consider benefits and also much harm.  So what?  Most things do. 

 

[orpat]

I find lying and making believe that one has a purpose to one's disability to be offensive.    That is not the same as "making the best" of a bad situation.   The message this man is spewing is powerful but it's still a lie. 

Lied? How?

[magicmiles]

Orpat,  I'm not sure that Velkyn considers a liar to be somebody telling a deliberate mis-truth like the rest of us. Or maybe she does, and thinks that Christians know deep down inside that God isn't real.

She'll also no doubt find my opinion 'hilarious'.

[jetson]

I find lying and making believe that one has a purpose to one's disability to be offensive.    That is not the same as "making the best" of a bad situation.   The message this man is spewing is powerful but it's still a lie. 

Lied? How?

It is a lie to tell people there is a god.

[magicmiles]

It is a lie to tell people there is a god.

No, it isn't. Even if there was no God and you genuinely believed there was, and told people this, you would not be lying, just incorrect.

A lie is a deliberate mis-truth. And here I thought it was only Velkyn who used the word too liberally.

[Hatter23]

It is a lie to tell people there is a god.

A personal tri-omni interventionist one?, unless you are a child, cloistered in a cult, or mentally retarded...yes. All the evidence; from the errors in scripture, the pluralities of religion exactly reflecting the time and culture they developed in,  the way eternal truths sway in the cultural wind; make it abundantly clear there is no tri-omni interventionist God. It is a type of lie, because the speaker has had to deliberately ignore said evidence.

[velkyn]

It is a lie to tell people there is a god.

No, it isn't. Even if there was no God and you genuinely believed there was, and told people this, you would not be lying, just incorrect.

A lie is a deliberate mis-truth. And here I thought it was only Velkyn who used the word too liberally.

Sorry, but being willfully ignorant just so you can repeat your lies doesn't excuse them.  That's all you, MM, and so many theists do.  You try to attack evolutionary theory, but you don't even know what it is because you've been careful to keep your selfs stupid about it.  You claim that your god does miracles but can never show the evidence for them requested.  You calim that your religion is so special, but when shown its not you just pretend you can stick your fingers in your ears and scream "I'm right, I'm right".   You calim that you have some purpose made for you, but again, nothing to show that this is the truth when it is repeatedly requested and shown to you that all theist make the same claims.  It's these purely intentional actions that make you liars. 

[magicmiles]

So are you saying that deep down I know there is no God, because you just can't see how I could possibly overlook the evidence against Him?

Hmm...I wonder how you've reacted to that suggestion in the past - that deep down you know there is a God.

[velkyn]

So are you saying that deep down I know there is no God, because you just can't see how I could possibly overlook the evidence against Him?

Hmm...I wonder how you've reacted to that suggestion in the past - that deep down you know there is a God.

no, MM, I meant exactly what I wrote, not your strawman at all.  If I had meant that anything like "deep down you know that there is no god", I would have said exactly that, but i know how stupid that is to say for the reason you noted, that Christians try such BS all of the time. 

I do enjoy watching you try to put words in other people's mouths to create these strawmen though.

[Hatter23]

I do enjoy watching you try to put words in other people's mouths to create these strawmen though.

Just to tease the subject a little, wouldn't it be correct that religious people, deep down, have more than a few doubts about the existence of God? They sin, and not just in the heat of the moment but regularly and methodically, attempt to preserve their life, when they are supposedly going to paradise, and the like.

[velkyn]

I would think that would indeed be true but compartmentalization is quite a nasty thing.  that's why I think that a theist could indeed believe in his god, and I do mean "his" god, the one he's created for himself, and still act the way they do. 

[rickymooston]

Rick, I find lying and making believe that one has a purpose to ones disability to be offensive.    That is not the same as "making the best" of a bad situation.   The message this man is spewing is powerful but it's still a lie. 

My husband is bipolar.  It does come with some things one could consider benefits and also much harm.  So what?  Most things do.

Its not a lie if he believes it and the way he lives the lie is to encourage people to make the best of what they got.

My cousin is bipolar too. She is a successful .lm and a successful American executive. She takes her medication.

I am unaware of benefits associated with bp per se bug since it can be confused with Adhd, perhaps it also enhances creativity etc etc

The lie kept him going when he was down. Or her Poole being bullied and having it drummed into their brains that they are stuck with a negative may feel as he felt

The deaf are. They curious in this vein. Some of them find it offensive that they are not Appreciate as they come.

[velkyn]

ricky, this again? Unless he lives under a rock, the evidence his god has been shown to be not there. It is only willful ignorance that keeps his faith intact, so I find it a lie.  I agree, the lie keeps him going when he’s down. That’s a shame, and I find part of the problem on how people equal religion with good.  Reality can do the same thing, realizing that you can do things even when others think you can’t. 

And being deaf is a problem and not normal, no matter how people might declare it makes them a “tribe”.  It’s amazing what people will do to excuse their situation.  It is only a civilized society that makes the claim that “being deaf isn’t a problem” less than a lie than it is.  Be deaf in a hunter gather troop, and that tiger will get you much easier.

[Hatter23]

Its not a lie if he believes it

If he believes it, it isn't a completely lie, but it is a delusion. And given that there's ample evidence that the typical Tri-Omni model of Yahweh is neither internally consistent, nor consistent with reality, it is intellectual dishonesty as well.

[rickymooston]

ricky, this again? Unless he lives under a rock, the evidence his god has been shown to be not there.

So all theists make you sick. I find that also a bit silly.

No "evidence" exists to show  that God doesn't exist, if the supernatural existence of God is important to you. I argue that isn't.  What matters is something called cultivation and how you develop yourself as a person.

I find it gets silly to over emphasize on what people believe or why they believe. My question is, what kind of people are they

He is a positive guy.

It is only willful ignorance that keeps his faith intact, so I find it a lie.  I agree, the lie keeps him going when he’s down. That’s a shame, and I find part of the problem on how people equal religion with good.  Reality can do the same thing, realizing that you can do things even when others think you can’t. 

He doesn't deny reality. The existence non-existence of the supernatural is an unproveable assertion. He is well aware of "reality" and the limits of his lacking arms/legs.

How does he react as a person. Again, he is a positive and giving person.

This is what inspired my Chinese friend who doesn't believe in God(s) or the supernatural. She didn't really care that he believes in a God she doesn't. I don't either.

I can disbelieve in God and be inspired by his positive attitude.

And being deaf is a problem and not normal, no matter how people might declare it makes them a “tribe”.  It’s amazing what people will do to excuse their situation.  It is only a civilized society that makes the claim that “being deaf isn’t a problem” less than a lie than it is.  Be deaf in a hunter gather troop, and that tiger will get you much easier.

The ear has function and that is why we evolved the ability to hear. However, sign language also has advantage in a "hunter gatherer" troop and more importantly, we have not been hunter gatherer's for generations upon generations.



The deaf developed their own culture. It has aspects that they like, whatever the reason for the "accident" or its creation. Every culture is the same. They were formed by versions of isolation.

French, Spanish and Italian developed because of isolation from a Latin base. Each language has its own beauty and can be appreciated.

[rickymooston]

If he believes it, it isn't a completely lie, but it is a delusion. And given that there's ample evidence that the typical Tri-Omni model of Yahweh is neither internally consistent, nor consistent with reality, it is intellectual dishonesty as well.

Because I disbelieve in God,  I lump Chrstianity in with any idealogy or belief system, I disagree with.

Its not a "delusion" in the sense that it isn't a medically induced mistake.

If somebody "believes" that George Bush was a great president, I can still respect that person as a person, despite the fact I disagree wth thier view point.

Its silly to be "made sick" by every Christian or every Republican.

[velkyn]

So all theists make you sick. I find that also a bit silly.

nice lie there, dear.

No "evidence" exists to show  that God doesn't exist, if the supernatural existence of God is important to you. I argue that isn't.  What matters is something called cultivation and how you develop yourself as a person.

Oh this again too.  So, your god with that tea set circuling Zeta Reticuli?   Nice moving the goalposts here too, Ricky.  I've been discussing a religious person spreading religous lies. 

I find it gets silly to over emphasize on what people believe or why they believe. My question is, what kind of people are they
He is a positive guy.

Wooooh, he's positive.  So?  And whoop-de do what you find "silly".  He's a positive guy who lies about reality.  He doesn’t need to.

He doesn't deny reality. The existence non-existence of the supernatural is an unproveable assertion. He is well aware of "reality" and the limits of his lacking arms/legs.

Until you can show evidence that the bible god, quite well defined in that book, has done anything, there is no reality supporting that it exists.  There is only a probablity that it does but as described one can say that it does not exist since this god would be doing things.  If this person had claim that there was maybe some force in the universe, no real qualities, etc, then your argument would be valid.  He doesn't.   

How does he react as a person. Again, he is a positive and giving person.b]This is what inspired my Chinese friend who doesn't believe in God(s) or the supernatural[/b]. She didn't really care that he believes in a God she doesn't. I don't either.
I can disbelieve in God and be inspired by his positive attitude.

moving the goalposts in the discussino we have been engaged in.  Appealing to emotions, I'd say too.  Of course you can be inspired by his attitude, what does that have to do with the myths he claism are true?  Are you inspired by the lies he furthers?

The ear has function and that is why we evolved the ability to hear. However, sign language also has advantage in a "hunter gatherer" troop and more importantly, we have not been hunter gatherer's for generations upon generations.

Wow, way to miss the point.  No, the function of the ear is not the reason why we evolved the ability to hear.  We evolved the ability to hear because it kept us alive.  Yes, hunter gatherer groups do use sign language when they want to sneak up on something so the criter doesn’t *hear* it.  I know we haven’t been hunter gatherers in a long time.  Maybe at some point we’ll not need to hear, but to declare that a useful ability isn’t a useful ability, is simply stupid.  Sign language doesn’t do anything for a car about to run you over.

I do agree that communities form in isolation.  Atheists here, fans of science fiction, etc.  But that’s not necessarily always a good thing.   

[Hatter23]

Because I disbelieve in God,  I lump Chrstianity in with any idealogy or belief system, I disagree with.

Its not a "delusion" in the sense that it isn't a medically induced mistake.

If somebody "believes" that George Bush was a great president, I can still respect that person as a person, despite the fact I disagree wth thier view point.

Its silly to be "made sick" by every Christian or every Republican.

A delusion does not require a medical or chemical causation. We all have them, every time we believe something in contrast with OBJECTIVE reality, and that belief is resistant to evidence, it is a delusion.

As to the George Bush being great, it doesn't qualif as a delusion because the quality of "greatness" is purely subjective. If someone is a 1%er, and not worried about the long term heatlh of the economy as they are over 50, then they could easily view GB as a great president without falling into the definition of delusion.

So while there are plenty of people whom I disagree with, I do not call them delusional.  However, that being said there are plenty of delusional belief systems out there: Objectivism(pure Libertarianism), Christianity, Wicca, and Communism to name a few.

I did not use the term "made sick" or any approximation of that, so please don't strawman me.

[rickymooston]

This thread isn't on the existence of God. I'm an atheist as you well know. The thread is on what sort of people inspire and what aspects inspire. Our discussion is on whether Nick is inspiring or not. I have been arguing it is.

Keep that in mind. 

nice lie there, dear.

Its not a lie; it is what I sincere was reading in your last statement. It sounded wrong to me and thus, I called you out on it. Several other statements suggest the same thing to me; i.e., perhaps there is a subtlety in what you are conveying that I'm missing here.

.So, your god with that tea set circuling Zeta Reticuli?   Nice moving the goalposts here too, Ricky.  I've been discussing a religious person spreading religous lies. 

I was discussing a religious person inspiring people and I started the thread remember.

Yes, if your belief in the God Zeta causes you to be a better cook, I'm in favor of the way that belief is reflected in you. I am invoking Zeta right now for the record and please do not blaspheme his name while  I make coffee. If you prefer good coffee, I'm allowed to disbelief in Zeta and still be inspired by the fruits of your belief in Zeta.

It goes without saying, that I, as a non-believer, will express the message differently than you do.

As a Taoist, I don't necessarily state "God made a purpose out of such and such", but I am essentially called to experience and appreciate the skin I am in, for its own sake ... I personally translate this, as making the best of things and adapting.

And whoop-de do what you find "silly".  He's a positive guy who lies about reality.  He doesn’t need to.

Expressing one's religious beliefs isn't lying. As far as I understand it, his religious beliefs are a small part of his message; i.e., some people listen to his talks without sharing his beliefs and are still inspired by him.

Until you can show evidence that the bible god, quite well defined in that book, has done anything, there is no reality supporting that it exists.  There is only a probablity that it does but as described one can say that it does not exist since this god would be doing things.  If this person had claim that there was maybe some force in the universe, no real qualities, etc, then your argument would be valid.  He doesn't.

Off topic aside: There is evidence, the question is one's evaluation of that evidence. The bible itself can be taken as a testimoney and the question is whether or not you believe that testimoney.  Somebody wrote an account and while I personally think that the account isn't reliable, it is still evidence. It may not be very good evidence but its still evidence. There are also sparse accounts of Christians being murdered. All of this, is totally irrelavent to the question about whether a given a Christian is "inspirational" or not. It is relavent to the question of whether or not you should believe in God yourself.

I agree that atheism is the "stronger" positon, despite your belief in Zeta.

moving the goalposts in the discussino we have been engaged in.  Appealing to emotions, I'd say too.  Of course you can be inspired by his attitude, what does that have to do with the myths he claism are true?  Are you inspired by the lies he furthers?

"Appealing to a misuse of logical fallacies ..." Remember, we are not discussing the existence of God here but whether this person, who happens to be religious, is inspirational or not.

It is a given that he is a religious person as thus attrbutes things to his God as all theists do which is why I said this, So all theists make you sick and you then called me a "liar" for doing so, lol.




 

I do agree that communities form in isolation.  Atheists here, fans of science fiction, etc.  But that’s not necessarily always a good thing.   

The deaf community feels their culture and community is a good thing. I have seen some of them on youtube and I do suspect, that there may be some aethetic things to love about it

Obviously, they need to deal with the non-deaf world. Some of them don't like hearng implants. Havng seen pictures of some of the implants, I'd not want one either. That is, I'd rather be deaf than have an electronic device drilled into me.

Now, if there was a device that was external, that could restore my hearing, I would feel differently

[velkyn]

Rick, no where did I say that theists make me sick.  If you think I did show me where.  I don’t seeing you calling me out on anything I actually did say.  Tell me what “suggested” anything of the sort “all theist makes you sick”.  I don’t like theists.  I find their lies wrong.  They do not make me “sick”.  That’s ludicrous, just like when Santorum was ranting about how the JFK speech made him “want to throw up”.  Let’s see, you also tried to claim, in your PM, that other people’s empowerment made me angry.  Not angry either. Same silly claims.     

I posted my opinion on a man who claims that a magical being has changed his life and how I find that not impressive at all.  See, here: nick vujicic, a man who ran to god since he was born without limbs and makes excuses for this god.  I find that being just one more human being desperate to think that their suffering has a "meaning".  Nothing inspirational here or worthy to be  role model. 

You accused me of having this opinion since I don’t like religion.  I don’t like worthless and harmful lies.  I don’t find him inspiring because he lies.  You might find a religious person inspiring, I don’t because they are relying on a untruth to inspire such feelings, and this “God can use any willing heart to do His work and that God is big enough to overcome any and all disabilities.” is completely untrue.  God does nothing and god is not big enough to overcome any and all disabilities.  We have people in such despair over their disabilities that they are in deep depression and commit sucide.  Where is this god then?  Belief in some magical nonsense will keep people from the real help they really need.  Belief that a god has a plan is not making the best of things and adapting.  One can do that with out the lies that this god will somehow help you.   

You also wanted to get into claiming that there was no way to disprove the god of this man.  I pointed out how I could.  And you ignored that.

no idea what your nonsense about the god Zeta is about.  golly, what a clever thing, saying I believe in “zeta”.     

 And expressing one’s belief in some god is lying when there is no evidence for such belief.  From the wiki entry alone, one can see that his religious beliefs are not a small part of the message.  And how people chose to hear it makes no difference.  Again, yes, they are inspired by him; yes they pick and choose from what he says just like people do the bible.  That doesn’t’ make his claims true.

And “off topic aside”.  That’s a topic you raised and a topic you decided you knew the “right” answer for.  The bible take as testimony has to have evidence backing up that anything about it is true. Otherwise, it is just hearsay.   

You seem to want to excuse anything anyone has ever said as long as the result is good in your opinion, the ends justify the means.  I don’t hold with that and I disagree, for the reasons I’ve stated above. 

I don’t care if some deaf people think their tribalism is a good thing.  Skinheads think theirs is too.

[Ice Monkey]

So are you saying that deep down I know there is no God, because you just can't see how I could possibly overlook the evidence against Him?

Hmm...I wonder how you've reacted to that suggestion in the past - that deep down you know there is a God.

I'd say that I think you've wrapped a few things in a lead lining to allow yourself to continue believing.  You've buried it; sheltered it from your own thoughts.  Else, you'd have gone mad long ago, panick-stricken, yet paralyzed with an overwhelming grief over such things as the knowledge that decent people - some of whom you love, have an eternity of anguish ahead of them.

Or you may just not be capable of love, sympathy, empathy, etc.... In that case, I'm way off base.

Would I conclude that deep down, you don't really believe in God?  Ya, sorta. 

I think the real question is, would this make you dishonest?  I would say no.  Even dishonest with yourself?  Still say no.  I wouldn't blame you for not fighting, and beating, your own immune system.  That would not be a ration expectation on my part, IMO.  Other atheists' mileage may vary.

Anyhow,
Cheers!

[rickymooston]

Hatter, I was talkng to Velkyn and not you about being made sick. Thanks. If that is you definiton of delusion, then all humans are deluded about almost everything. Our knowledge is wrong but we have not found out yet. Its up to future generations to laugh at our ignorance

Velkyn, I seem to have erred. His website does evangilize.

  I'll get back to you.   

[rickymooston]

I still like how he addresses very real problems and empowers people. It may indeed be a pity that his expression of it, like that of many Christians, is religious and that he seeks to convert people to God; I concede this point.

Of course, this sort of Christianity is what I enjoyed as a Christian.

I like religious people who had their lives "transformed" and learned through their "religion" to improve themselves.

As an atheist, I don't believe in the God that they called about but the tourch underlying said transformation is of interest to me.

And I still don't consider him a "liar". I simply think, his religious conclusions, whatever his justification of them may be, are wrong.

And the deaf community is a positive thing because deaf people make it a positive thing. It may be the case that there exist deaf people who make it a negative thing

[Hatter23]

Hatter, I was talkng to Velkyn and not you about being made sick. Thanks. If that is you definiton of delusion, then all humans are deluded about almost everything. Our knowledge is wrong but we have not found out yet. Its up to future generations to laugh at our ignorance

Now mind you, it has to be a belief that is resistant to evidence to the contrary. Human beings aren't deluded about almost everything. You drop something while on Earth, it will fall. Water is wet, and if it is fresh water it will abate your thirst. It is darker in the night than the day. If you touch fire, you will feel pain. Actually, human beings are generally not deluded about hundreds of thousands of things.

However, delusions are very, very, common. I liken it to a skin infection, we all have acne, we all have delusions. However the position religion is in, societal wise, is to rub recid grease all over your face, and the faces of your children because skin infections are a good thing.