Author Topic: xians have no right to wear cross openly at work says Gov't  (Read 1235 times)

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Offline kin hell

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xians have no right to wear cross openly at work says Gov't
« on: March 15, 2012, 04:13:44 AM »
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9136191/Christians-have-no-right-to-wear-cross-at-work-says-Government.html

Quote
In a highly significant move, ministers will fight a case at the European Court of Human Rights in which two British women will seek to establish their right to display the cross.
It is the first time that the Government has been forced to state whether it backs the right of Christians to wear the symbol at work.
A document seen by The Sunday Telegraph discloses that ministers will argue that because it is not a “requirement” of the Christian faith, employers can ban the wearing of the cross and sack workers who insist on doing so.
"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Online One Above All

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Re: xians have no right to wear cross openly at work says Gov't
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2012, 04:28:24 AM »
Legally this makes sense. Work isn't a public place, AFAIK. Logically, this is just stupid. So what if they wear crosses? They're not preaching, are they? People should have the right to wear whatever symbols they want.
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Offline Pounamu

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Re: xians have no right to wear cross openly at work says Gov't
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2012, 05:47:51 AM »
Legally this makes sense. Work isn't a public place, AFAIK. Logically, this is just stupid. So what if they wear crosses? They're not preaching, are they? People should have the right to wear whatever symbols they want.
Plus, wearing a cross is not always a display of one's religion. Sometimes it's just fashion:

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Offline Tero

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Re: xians have no right to wear cross openly at work says Gov't
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2012, 06:40:20 AM »
Whoopee! Better dig out my swastika from the wife's jewellry box so I can wear it to work.

Offline Dante

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Re: xians have no right to wear cross openly at work says Gov't
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2012, 07:13:02 AM »
Legally this makes sense. Work isn't a public place, AFAIK.

Agreed. The employer has the right to dicatate dress in their workplace.

Quote
Logically, this is just stupid. So what if they wear crosses? They're not preaching, are they? People should have the right to wear whatever symbols they want.
 

Is this what you meant to say? I don't understand how this follows, given your first 2 sentences on the subject.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

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Re: xians have no right to wear cross openly at work says Gov't
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2012, 07:39:40 AM »
Is this what you meant to say? I don't understand how this follows, given your first 2 sentences on the subject.

The law shouldn't have any say on something that isn't disruptive.[1] It'd be like making a law stating that you can't walk in a certain (non-disruptive) way when you're in a private location.
 1. Meaning it shouldn't prohibit it.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Pounamu

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Re: xians have no right to wear cross openly at work says Gov't
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2012, 07:58:30 AM »
Whoopee! Better dig out my swastika from the wife's jewellry box so I can wear it to work.

I've never said wearing religious symbols at work is appropriate. I'm just saying it shouldn't be banned by law.
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Offline Dante

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Re: xians have no right to wear cross openly at work says Gov't
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2012, 09:21:58 AM »
The law shouldn't have any say on something that isn't disruptive.[1] It'd be like making a law stating that you can't walk in a certain (non-disruptive) way when you're in a private location.
 1. Meaning it shouldn't prohibit it.

But "disruptive" is subjective, no? But I digress.

I don't see it as "making a law stating you cant" anything. They are making the law that the employer CAN limit symbolism that they deems disruptive.

edit: The above statement, "making a law you cant", is in regards to the OP only.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 09:28:31 AM by Dante »
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: xians have no right to wear cross openly at work says Gov't
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2012, 09:26:13 AM »
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9136191/Christians-have-no-right-to-wear-cross-at-work-says-Government.html

Quote
In a highly significant move, ministers will fight a case at the European Court of Human Rights in which two British women will seek to establish their right to display the cross.
It is the first time that the Government has been forced to state whether it backs the right of Christians to wear the symbol at work.
A document seen by The Sunday Telegraph discloses that ministers will argue that because it is not a “requirement” of the Christian faith, employers can ban the wearing of the cross and sack workers who insist on doing so.

I think this is a stupid law, allowing one to wear a cross, yamuka, or turban is a reasonable accomodation of the disability of being delusional.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

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Re: xians have no right to wear cross openly at work says Gov't
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2012, 09:26:41 AM »
I don't see it as "making a law stating you cant" anything. They are making the law that the employer CAN limit symbolism that they deems disruptive.

Regardless, the point is that this ban is stupid.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Dante

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Re: xians have no right to wear cross openly at work says Gov't
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2012, 09:31:20 AM »
Regardless, the point is that this ban is stupid.

How so? Shouldn't employers have the right to dictate dress codes during business hours?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

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Re: xians have no right to wear cross openly at work says Gov't
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2012, 09:52:39 AM »
How so? Shouldn't employers have the right to dictate dress codes during business hours?

Within reason, yes. To ban only one specific piece of clothing (dunno if crosses count as "clothing", but you get the point) that only one group wears is discrimination, plain and simple. Would you be asking such questions if it had been symbols representing atheism that were being banned?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Dante

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Re: xians have no right to wear cross openly at work says Gov't
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2012, 10:00:26 AM »
Would you be asking such questions if it had been symbols representing atheism that were being banned?

What I would be asking is if all religious/anti-religious symbolism is banned. If not, then it's discrimination. If so, discrimination it is not.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Pounamu

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Re: xians have no right to wear cross openly at work says Gov't
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2012, 10:48:44 AM »
Regardless, the point is that this ban is stupid.

How so? Shouldn't employers have the right to dictate dress codes during business hours?

They should, of course, but they shoud ban a specific accessory of a clothing, only on the condition that it is unarguably disrupting the normal working process.
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Offline Dante

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Re: xians have no right to wear cross openly at work says Gov't
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2012, 11:32:43 AM »
Not to take this too much further, but how does one define "unarguably"? Is it possible on subjective things like disruptive and offensive? I think not.

Any employer has a right to dictate what their employees wear at work, as a basis for working for that employer, as long as it doesn't discriminate one particular ethnic, religious, or gendered group. Hooters girls don’t get to wear pants, NFL players don’t get to wear tutus, soldiers don’t get to wear long hair, and I don’t get to wear my Batman costume to work. None of these are offensive in certain contexts, but are not the preferred dress code of the employer in question.

As suggested by Tero above, would you, under every circumstance, allow a representative of your enterprise to wear swastika symbol to work?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Pounamu

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Re: xians have no right to wear cross openly at work says Gov't
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2012, 11:52:22 AM »
As suggested by Tero above, would you, under every circumstance, allow a representative of your enterprise to wear swastika symbol to work?

Of course not! Precisely because the swastika would disrupt the normal working process. So would your Batman suit. I don't think it so difficult to define "unarguably" as you're making it seem. 
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: xians have no right to wear cross openly at work says Gov't
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2012, 12:06:53 PM »
What I would be asking is if all religious/anti-religious symbolism is banned. If not, then it's discrimination. If so, discrimination it is not.
So, by this logic, banning wearing a cross - and just a cross, not a star of David or any other religious symbol - is discrimination.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: xians have no right to wear cross openly at work says Gov't
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2012, 12:09:03 PM »
I can't speak for what goes on in England. But I'm guessing a bunch of American fundamentalists will start the rumor that Obama is running the UK too. Otherwise there wouldn't be a war against religion going on there.

In the states there are federal laws to help prevent both discrimination against employees and to prevent the religious from disrupting the workplace with religious crap. But like most laws, nothing is cut and dried. It is not illegal, for instance, for someone to try to convert you while the two of you are eating in the lunch room. Unless they over do it, which is not too well defined. Stuff like that.

The Freedom From Religion Foundation has a nice overview of the situation in the US here:
http://www.adl.org/religious_freedom/resource_kit/religion_workplace.asp

There you can see that such laws are just as complicated as this discussion guesses it would be.

My opinion? I don't believe in god. I do believe in human rights. And it's not worth the time or trouble to tell someone to take their cross off. As long as it is not presenting a danger to the person wearing it (I've had jobs where it would be dangerous to have a dangling necklace that could get caught in moving equipment, etc.  The wearing of ALL jewelry was disallowed in those cases.)

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline joebbowers

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Re: xians have no right to wear cross openly at work says Gov't
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2012, 05:41:57 AM »
I would support a ban on wearing crosses. I think wearing the cross is sending a message that "This is a Christian country, if you don't like it, you are not welcome here." It can intimidate non-Christians particularly if your boss is wearing it.

I support any legislation that discriminates against religion, superstition, or magical thinking.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline jetson

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Re: xians have no right to wear cross openly at work says Gov't
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2012, 06:08:24 AM »
Personally, I find crosses offensive.  But no one gives two shits about me, because it's Jesus Christ.  So, the impasse, crosses are fine and swastikas are not.  More people were killed by God than by Hitler, but they still get respect for their cross.

But alas, I know that God is imaginary, and Hitler was an actual monster.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: xians have no right to wear cross openly at work says Gov't
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2012, 09:07:17 AM »
I would support a ban on wearing crosses. I think wearing the cross is sending a message that "This is a Christian country, if you don't like it, you are not welcome here." It can intimidate non-Christians particularly if your boss is wearing it.
Nope.  At best, it sends the message, "I am a Christian".  By the logic you espouse here, the fact that some Japanese people wear crosses means that Japan is a Christian nation, even though it emphatically is not.

Quote from: joebbowers
I support any legislation that discriminates against religion, superstition, or magical thinking.
Naturally.  Nobody ever discriminates against things they support, only against things they dislike.  Yet they wonder why other people start discriminating against them as a result.

Offline joebbowers

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Re: xians have no right to wear cross openly at work says Gov't
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2012, 03:03:40 AM »
Quote from: joebbowers
I support any legislation that discriminates against religion, superstition, or magical thinking.
Naturally.  Nobody ever discriminates against things they support, only against things they dislike.  Yet they wonder why other people start discriminating against them as a result.

It's sad how often people take the position that religion and superstition is equally as valid as logic and reason, thus deserving of the same respect and protection.
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Offline pingnak

Re: xians have no right to wear cross openly at work says Gov't
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2012, 04:47:10 PM »
I don't care if people wear religious symbols or not. 

If an organization wanted to say which symbols (or not), then there's a problem, and that's where the 'ban' makes sense.

After all, if you can wear your crucifix, I can wear an inverted one with a blood-soaked skeleton on it.  Or a demon star.  Or a strainer on my head.  And we can both smile at the public as we represent your corporation or government agency.

Now, if the boss allows some symbols, but won't let me wear my irreligious one(s), then I have grounds for a discrimination lawsuit, and so does anyone else.

So if their co-workers are allowed to wear other symbolic religious nik-naks, and they aren't allowed to wear a cross, well, then I think they do have a valid discrimination case.

Any and all religious nik-naks, or none at all.  There's really no middle ground.

http://www.iheartchaos.com/post/7638063293/pastafarian-allowed-to-wear-strainer-for-id-in-austria


Offline Hatter23

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Re: xians have no right to wear cross openly at work says Gov't
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2012, 08:39:19 AM »

Any and all religious nik-naks, or none at all.  There's really no middle ground.


Wouldn't the term "reasonable accomidation" be a middle ground, similar to how the ADA laws operate? Wearing a cross, or yamuka, or FSM symbol would be OK, but going stark naked or wearing a pirate costume would not.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: xians have no right to wear cross openly at work says Gov't
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2012, 09:16:58 AM »
Wouldn't the term "reasonable accomidation" be a middle ground, similar to how the ADA laws operate? Wearing a cross, or yamuka, or FSM symbol would be OK, but going stark naked or wearing a pirate costume would not.

I see nothing unreasonable about wearing a pirate costume.  :P
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline pingnak

Re: xians have no right to wear cross openly at work says Gov't
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2012, 12:27:21 AM »
Me neither.

Nor being stark naked under yer pirate costume.  Arr!


Offline MadBunny

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Re: xians have no right to wear cross openly at work says Gov't
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2012, 01:15:53 AM »
In the US we've already established that employers can have a dress code, or clothing requirements that preclude a persons religious expression.

The most recent case that comes to mind is one involving Disney.
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Offline ungod

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Re: xians have no right to wear cross openly at work says Gov't
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2012, 02:46:24 PM »
Whoopee! Better dig out my swastika from the wife's jewellry box so I can wear it to work.

I've never said wearing religious symbols at work is appropriate. I'm just saying it shouldn't be banned by law.

Ask a Muslim if they think such a ban should be enacted, then try wearing a cross in Saudi Arabia or Iran.

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Offline ungod

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Re: xians have no right to wear cross openly at work says Gov't
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2012, 02:48:26 PM »
I think this is a stupid law, allowing one to wear a cross, yamuka, or turban is a reasonable accomodation of the disability of being delusional.

My church advocates the wearing of an AK47 and a bandolier of ammo. I demand equality under the law.

Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

"What good fortune for those in power that people do not think." - Hitler