Author Topic: War on religion  (Read 1802 times)

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Offline monkeymind

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Re: War on religion
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2012, 07:52:16 PM »
I have no interest in eagles except as a beautiful part of nature, but I get upset every time I see a double standard being applied by government.

To be clear: I have an issue with this type of preferential treatment regardless of what it is based on. Be it religious, cultural, or racial, it is still unjust.

What is unjust is that the Parks and Wildlife Department has any say on the matter at all.
That is the real story. That the Arapaho do not truly have a sovereign Nation of their own.
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: War on religion
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2012, 11:37:12 PM »
This is more than a religious issue and always has been. It is a matter of sovereignty.

Allowing a religious exception to US law is, clearly, a violation of church/state, and in this particular case it is also animal cruelty and killing an endangered species.

Let them kill eagles on their own land, not on US territory. Why can't they do that? The other tribe they share the reservation with won't let them. Well then that's something they have to work out with them.

Let's say for example an Alaskan eskimo tribe needed to stage a dog fight for a religious rite, but the other tribes near them wouldn't let them, so they petition the government to hold the dog fight off the reservation, on US territory. Should we allow that too?

What if they want to perform a human sacrifice next? This is not a reducto ad absurdem, many native American tribes used to practice ritual human sacrifice. What if they want to revive the practice to assert their sovereignty or to yield a better harvest?

Sorry. Religion is superstition with no real supernatural benefit. We cannot allow our laws to be broken just to appease superstition, particularly when it seeks to harm living beings.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline joebbowers

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Re: War on religion
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2012, 11:44:06 PM »
Decades ago I saw a note in a newspaper that an ex-Jewish atheist in New York state was suing to stop kosher slaughter.  Other than that the state required that the animals be knocked unconscious by an electric shock thru the brain.  Judaism requires that the animal know it's being cut up.

I looked into it a bit more and you're right. The talmud doesn't specify that the animal must be conscious, but most rabbis interpret it that way anyway. I realize that a bloodshed and slaughter are unavoidable if we are to continue eating meats, but the key part here is unnecessary cruelty. Kosher meats are unnecessarily cruel. I will boycott them from now on.


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Offline Bad Pear

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Re: War on religion
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2012, 11:46:07 PM »
Quote
...and in this particular case it is also animal cruelty and killing an endangered species.

Just a point for clarification: The American Bald Eagles is not, at the present, considered an endangered species. They are designated "least concern", which is the best designation an animal can hope for.

*Edit: Added quote
Atheism is not a mission to convert the world. It only seems that way because when other religions implode, atheism is what is left behind

Offline monkeymind

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Re: War on religion
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2012, 07:17:12 AM »
This is more than a religious issue and always has been. It is a matter of sovereignty.

Allowing a religious exception to US law is, clearly, a violation of church/state, and in this particular case it is also animal cruelty and killing an endangered species.

Let them kill eagles on their own land, not on US territory. Why can't they do that? The other tribe they share the reservation with won't let them. Well then that's something they have to work out with them.

It's really funny actually, that I am defending religious freedom, killing of eagles, and the Arapaho (whom some of my Cherokee relatives didn't really get a long with).

The Arapaho and Shoshone who were once enemies, were forced off their own land onto what is now the Wind River Reservation.

Hunting and fishing rights that were granted the Arapaho and other indigenous peoples in the original treaties with the US government have always been in dispute. However, The American Indian Religious Freedom Act allows them access to sacred sites and hunting grounds not on the reservation.

http://www.cr.nps.gov/local-law/fhpl_IndianRelFreAct.pdf

Arapaho and other native peoples were forced by Christians to become Christian, attend white Christian schools, and denied self determination and access to their own religious practices and fishing and hunting grounds. Now that they are finally getting to practice their own religion and being allowed access to their sacred sites, fishing and hunting grounds, atheists? and environmentalists want to stop them over a few eagle bones?

Do you really think that Arapaho will be cruel to an animal they consider sacred? The eagles are not endangered, btw.

Reminds me of a few years ago...the Macah being allowed to take 5 whales per year. They only take 3 because that is all they need. Greenpeace got a submarine and painted it to look like a killer whale (enemy to the whale being hunted). The old diesel sub broadcast killer whale sounds and head out into the waters spewing diesel fuel all around.

You are meaning well perhaps, and it is within your rights to protest this government action. I knee-jerked because of your previous offensive "humor" about the killing of Native American Indians. Consider the minus Darwin for that instead.

Anyways, I support the FFRF but doubt that they will find any violations of laws here. Even if so, can't you find a way to compromise just this once?



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Offline monkeymind

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Re: War on religion
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2012, 09:20:05 AM »
Forgot to say something:

If it appears that I am backing off on this a bit....it is because...I am. I originally thot that the hunting was on the Wind River Reservation.
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Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline joebbowers

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Re: War on religion
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2012, 05:27:28 AM »
As I've posted on other threads, nobody owns land. They simply believe they do until someone else comes along and takes it from them. We bought much of our country from France and Russia, the French and Russians killed or traded the natives for it, the natives fought and killed each other over it for thousands of years before that. Eventually it will belong to someone else, either by trade, purchase, war, abandonment, alien invasion, or some other reason.

This is one reason patriotism baffles me. Almost everyone thinks their country is the best, simply because they were born there. This concept is constantly reinforced by our parents, teachers, and government, so most people don't even question it.

Almost every border on the map is drawn in blood, but that's not pleasant to think about so people like to pretend it isn't true. The native Americans should be thankful they were even given a reservation considering what usually happens in these situations. Not only their people, but their language and culture, was allowed to continue existing for the most part. Very rare. Usually, the lucky ones get forced to adapt to their new landlord's culture, the unlucky are simply killed.
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Offline monkeymind

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Re: War on religion
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2012, 06:00:09 AM »
The native Americans should be thankful they were even given a reservation considering what usually happens in these situations. Not only their people, but their language and culture, was allowed to continue existing for the most part. Very rare. Usually, the lucky ones get forced to adapt to their new landlord's culture, the unlucky are simply killed.
Wow, that's cold dude! Might makes right?

I suppose you also think Africans  should be happy their ancestors were kidnapped, enslaved, and brought to America, because now they can be free to live in America instead of starving to death in a third world country?



.
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: War on religion
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2012, 02:54:11 AM »
Wow, that's cold dude! Might makes right?

Countless civilizations have been eradicated or enslaved for their land, the native Americans were spared this fate. I was not making a moral judgement, I was stating facts. Might may not necessarily make right, but might prevails. Right is irrelevant.

Keep those negative karmas coming, Monkeymind. When I'm pissing off fools I know I must be right.
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: War on religion
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2012, 02:56:53 AM »
Out of curiousity, do you think that giving back all of the territory claimed by the USA to the natives is the right thing to do? Do you think it's going to happen?
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline monkeymind

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Re: War on religion
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2012, 07:25:48 AM »
Wow, that's cold dude! Might makes right?

Countless civilizations have been eradicated or enslaved for their land, the native Americans were spared this fate. I was not making a moral judgement, I was stating facts. Might may not necessarily make right, but might prevails. Right is irrelevant.

Keep those negative karmas coming, Monkeymind. When I'm pissing off fools I know I must be right.
This is the point. Right is not irrelevant. You brought it up and excused it. Remember. You are glad it happened because "who wants to live in the UK?"

I'm just trying to tell you you are being offensive to others. It is obvious you could care less, and instead wish to call me a D-bag and now fool.

 Pissing off fools does not mean you are right. Now you are just being foolish.
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
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Offline Historicity

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Re: War on religion
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2012, 07:45:43 AM »
Out of curiousity, do you think that giving back all of the territory claimed by the USA to the natives is the right thing to do? Do you think it's going to happen?
No, but any day now -- just you wait and see -- a US government truck will pull up in front of every suburban home owned by someone with a drop of African-American ancestry and drop off a mule for them to take care of along with a paper assigning them 40 acres of land in the desert somewhere.

I say suburban because all my black relatives are middle class.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: War on religion
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2012, 07:55:58 AM »
How much it annoys people is not a good benchmark for how correct an argument is.  I'm sure that some theists use a variation on that logic when it comes to arguing with theists, and I'll bet they consider atheists fools as well.  The fact is, people tend to rate the intelligence of others based on how much they agree or disagree with the person's arguments.  Yet this "rating system" actually says more about the person making it - if nothing else, how likely they are to let their own biases run rampant.

Offline monkeymind

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Re: War on religion
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2012, 08:17:03 AM »
Out of curiousity, do you think that giving back all of the territory claimed by the USA to the natives is the right thing to do? Do you think it's going to happen?

It's not about that. Why bring it up.

Here's the discussion I AM having:
Joe:
Quote
This seems like a violation of the separation of church and state. Allowing one specific religion to violate laws that others can't.
Hunting and fishing rights that were granted the Arapaho and other indigenous peoples in the original treaties with the US government have always been in dispute. However, The American Indian Religious Freedom Act allows them access to sacred sites and hunting grounds not on the reservation.

Joe:
Quote
Then again, do we have the right to dictate our laws to them on their own land?
Hell yes, we do!
Yet this:

Joe:
Quote
As I've posted on other threads, nobody owns land.

So why all the concern if not hatred against religion or indigenous peoples or just wanting to stir up shit? If you needed my approval and thought I'd go yea! plus 1 for atheists-minus one for the Arapaho, you were mistaken. There is no church/state issue (superceeded by other laws) and no, we don't have right to dictate what happens on their land, but the Parks and Wildlife Department does (to a degree).

So just out of curiousity....Why are you in Laos? Trying to take over some land?


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Offline joebbowers

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Re: War on religion
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2012, 12:46:55 PM »
Out of curiousity, do you think that giving back all of the territory claimed by the USA to the natives is the right thing to do? Do you think it's going to happen?

It's not about that. Why bring it up.

Quote from: monkeymind
Right is not irrelevant.

I brought it up to demonstrate that right is irrelevant. We are not going to give the natives back their land, and you know that, which is presumably why you did not answer the question. Might prevails, right is irrelevant.

Theists have managed to deny homosexuals the right to marry in most of the world. Are they right? No. How have they accomplished this? Sheer numbers. Might prevails.

I am not saying it should be this way, I am saying it is this way. It is the natural order. We can use it to our advantage, we can try to rise above it as a species, or we can cry about it.

I'm just trying to tell you you are being offensive to others. It is obvious you couldn't care less, and instead wish to call me a D-bag and now fool.

Corrected common grammatical mistake. And you are right, I do not care if I offend anyone. I'm simply stating facts. I'm not interested in sugar-coating them just to avoid arbitrary and meaningless negative Darwins.

I called you a doushebag for giving me a negative darwin for reporting a church/state issue to the FFRF, which seemed to be a doushebag move. At the time I didn't know that you were actually giving me the demerit for a different comment in a different thread.

Here's the discussion I AM having:
Joe:
Quote
This seems like a violation of the separation of church and state. Allowing one specific religion to violate laws that others can't.
Hunting and fishing rights that were granted the Arapaho and other indigenous peoples in the original treaties with the US government have always been in dispute. However, The American Indian Religious Freedom Act allows them access to sacred sites and hunting grounds not on the reservation.

The American Indian Religious Freedom Act sounds like a violation of the separation of church and state. In fact it clearly is, but it was obviously made in consideration of the fact that our land used to be their land, and we would kind of sound like dicks telling them they can't use it anymore.

In my opinion they are lucky to have the reservations. Their land was never truly their land, as we demonstrated by taking it from them so easily. If they want it back, they are welcome to fight us for it. Otherwise, when they leave the reservation and step onto US territory they are subject to US law. The American Indian Religious Freedom Act should be repealed.

So why all the concern if not hatred against religion or indigenous peoples or just wanting to stir up shit?

Of course I hate religion, I've never tried to hide that. If they had a reasonable non-religious reason for taking the birds, I would certainly be more open to it. For example if they wanted to take one male and one female and start a breeding program, I'd welcome it. But as it is, killing them for superstition, particularly religious superstition, of course I am adamantly opposed.

There is no church/state issue (superceeded by other laws) and no, we don't have right to dictate what happens on their land, but the Parks and Wildlife Department does (to a degree).

Like I said, it isn't their land that they are going hunting in.


So just out of curiousity....Why are you in Laos? Trying to take over some land?

Was in Laos a couple months ago. Back in China now. I live in China but travel quite a bit. I'm a photographer.
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Offline monkeymind

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Re: War on religion
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2012, 11:36:02 PM »
Might prevails, right is irrelevant.
It is the natural order.
And you are right, I do not care if I offend anyone.
In my opinion they are lucky to have the reservations. Their land was never truly their land, as we demonstrated by taking it from them so easily. If they want it back, they are welcome to fight us for it.
Duly noted.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: War on religion
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2012, 03:13:00 PM »
In my opinion they are lucky to have the reservations. Their land was never truly their land, as we demonstrated by taking it from them so easily. If they want it back, they are welcome to fight us for it. Otherwise, when they leave the reservation and step onto US territory they are subject to US law. The American Indian Religious Freedom Act should be repealed.
  Wow, nice way to show being an atheist doesn't prevent you from being an arrogant bigoted ass. 
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: War on religion
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2012, 01:56:09 AM »
OK Velkyn, do you think that giving back all of the territory claimed by the USA to the natives is the right thing to do? Why or why not?

Do you think it's going to happen? Why or why not?
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Offline Samothec

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Re: War on religion
« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2012, 03:28:49 AM »
There are at least two other established violations of the separation of church & state.

Priests are commonly allowed to be accessories after the crime with no legal consequences. That is what the "sanctity" of the confessional is – they become accessories but face no legal consequences for not reporting crimes.

Marriage is the biggest muddled mess of a blend of church & state out of everything.
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Re: War on religion
« Reply #48 on: March 22, 2012, 03:35:09 AM »
Marriage is the biggest muddled mess of a blend of church & state out of everything.

Marriage is just a union between two people. Sort of like dating, but with more legal ramifications. It has no intrinsic meaning; only the people who get married give it whatever meaning they wish.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: War on religion
« Reply #49 on: March 22, 2012, 03:42:24 AM »
isn't there some type of law which prevents one from testifying against their spouse? If so, I imagine it exists in recognition of a 'special bond'.

That may also be the reason for priests being exempt from reporting what they hear in confession. ( if that is indeed the case )
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Re: War on religion
« Reply #50 on: March 22, 2012, 06:56:24 AM »
Marriage is the biggest muddled mess of a blend of church & state out of everything.

Marriage is just a union between two people. Sort of like dating, but with more legal ramifications. It has no intrinsic meaning; only the people who get married give it whatever meaning they wish.

I've often thought about this issue. The government doesn't have any right to approve or deny marriage, it's a private matter. I find the very idea offensive. Unfortunately if you marry without the state's "blessing" you will be denied any of the legal benefits of marriage.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: War on religion
« Reply #51 on: March 22, 2012, 10:22:17 AM »
OK Velkyn, do you think that giving back all of the territory claimed by the USA to the natives is the right thing to do? Why or why not?

Do you think it's going to happen? Why or why not?

well, let’s see what you actually said, joe
In my opinion they are lucky to have the reservations. Their land was never truly their land, as we demonstrated by taking it from them so easily. If they want it back, they are welcome to fight us for it. Otherwise, when they leave the reservation and step onto US territory they are subject to US law. The American Indian Religious Freedom Act should be repealed.
 

I think that giving back the land is indeed the ideal right thing to do. The Native Americans should never have been colonized in the first place.  I do not go with the delusion that some group “deserves” something more than another.  However, ideals don’t work well in an imperfect world where we have 300+ million living in the United States at the moment.  The reservations, which have become sovereign land in many if not all cases, were almost always on the worst possible land that the “European-Americans” didn’t want.  This has lead to very bad conditions on a lot of these places, which have effectively become ghettoized, one group being segregated and limited in economic mobility.  What needs to be done is that the reservations get the resources they, and we, need them to have. Everyone needs a “we”, not an “us” and “them”.   Will this happen, yes, I think it will eventually, when we get over this nonsense of people being “different”, and that some group has some “right” to a chunk of land.

Now, to get to what you said earlier.  You say that Native Americans are lucky to have the reservations, and that the land was never “truly” theirs to begin with since they couldn’t hold it.  Quite a pathetic invocation of might equals right.   

I know, you have said you don’t care about what others think.  Golly, you are just so tough and macho &)  But that’s a sad thing.  Because might equals right is the position of a bully, Joe.  It is opposed to justice and fairness, the empathy toward your fellow man which has made human society work and is always the right side of history.  By your argument, it’s the Africans fault that they couldn’t keep those with a higher technology they got from pure luck on where they lived, from enslaving them.  It’s the victims fault that the predator got him.   

Now, like most bullies, I’m sure that as soon as someone smacks you on the nose you’d run away, and likely running behind the very societal conventions that have been put in play to enforce justice and fairness, despite your insistence that might always makes right.  If a member of the Dine decided to kick you out of your house and you couldn’t resist them, I don’t for one minute doubt that you’d be crying foul.  Like a bully, as long as you think you have the upper hand, you spew and bluster on how you’d welcome a fight.  I’ve dealt with bullies for a very long time, Joe, and I know how it goes.  I see your supposed outrage abut the eagles as being just smoke and mirrors to cover your desire for your way to be the only way. 

I don’t like religion at all.  I think that the killing of eagles for religion is ridiculous.  But, I also don’t like the idea that anyone is prevented from doing what they want as long as it harms no others (more on that in a minute).  As monkey said, this reinstates the rights of Native Americans, it does not give them special ones.  This is where I wasn’t thinking when I also though it should be addressed by the FFRF.  Bald eagles, and golden eagles, are protected, for returning them to an unendangered status and a rather silly idolization of them by the US.  They can be killed to protect livestock.  They can be killed for education purposes or science.  They are quite numerous now so there is no reason that a eagle can’t be killed just like a chicken for a Santeria ceremony.  I do qualify that I always require humaneness, but death is death. 

Does it harm an eagle? Yep, and my filet mignon puts a real hurt on a cow.  My omnivorousness is important to me and the religion is important to the believer.  As long as they stay out of my way, they may believe what they want, and I will exercise my rights to show that they are wrong. But I’m not going to say that they “can’t” do something that I essentially do too.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: War on religion
« Reply #52 on: March 22, 2012, 03:01:58 PM »

I think that giving back the land is indeed the ideal right thing to do. The Native Americans should never have been colonized in the first place. 

Would you be willing to hand over any land you happen to own? I ask npt nt be facetious, but because in the similar debate with indigenous Australians my brother feels that we should abandon our homes and that he will in fact do this 'soon'. Mind you, he also proposes we dismantle society as we know it because it is not sustaining and harmful.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline velkyn

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Re: War on religion
« Reply #53 on: March 22, 2012, 03:08:49 PM »
Would you be willing to hand over any land you happen to own? I ask npt nt be facetious, but because in the similar debate with indigenous Australians my brother feels that we should abandon our homes and that he will in fact do this 'soon'. Mind you, he also proposes we dismantle society as we know it because it is not sustaining and harmful.

like I said, MM, ideals and the real world don't work. 
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: War on religion
« Reply #54 on: March 22, 2012, 03:15:55 PM »
By that do you mean our selfishness trumps whatever moral position we might hold philosophically?

I know that is certainly the case for me.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline velkyn

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Re: War on religion
« Reply #55 on: March 22, 2012, 03:26:37 PM »
By that do you mean our selfishness trumps whatever moral position we might hold philosophically?

I know that is certainly the case for me.

No.  It can be a problem though.  I am a pragmatist to a large degree and I haven't taken many moral positions that haven't been well considered on how they work in the real world.  I'm a great believer in the tanstaafl principle, there is no way to do absolutely no "harm", no matter what.   If I were to give up my 36 x 92 city lot, it would be highly entertaining to declare that the Leni Lenape tribe gets it and try to figure out how to divide it up between three federally recognized tribes that are the descendants of them and some unrecognized groups too. 

EDIT:  To be clear, I would not give up my property since it would suceed in doing nothing and would cause far more problems that it would cure.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 03:33:05 PM by velkyn »
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: War on religion
« Reply #56 on: March 22, 2012, 03:37:05 PM »
I agree with velkyn.  What the ideal position is and what can actually be done are generally two completely different things.  joebbowers is right in one solitary respect - the Native Americans weren't able to keep Americans from taking the land they lived on.  But that is no justification at all.  What you do to others you will receive in return.  Nonetheless, we're stuck with what past generations of Americans did to the Native Americans.  We can either show that we've learned something and try to fix the problems that the Native Americans now suffer from, or we can continue down that path of believing that our superior position justifies whatever we choose to do, and they can just get over themselves.  Until the day that we discover that we aren't stronger anymore, and that our lack of mercy and empathy has left them with ample reason to do us harm.

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Re: War on religion
« Reply #57 on: March 22, 2012, 04:10:50 PM »
I heard too 'friends' arguing once. "Why did you rip me off , man?" "Well, yu were stupid enough to give it to me."
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.