Author Topic: War on religion  (Read 1810 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Nick

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10294
  • Darwins +177/-8
  • Gender: Male
War on religion
« on: March 14, 2012, 09:49:18 AM »
The US Fish and Wildlife Service is allowing the Northern Arapaho Tribe in Wyoming to kill 2 Bald Eagles for religious purposes.  I don't understand?  I thought the government had a "war on religion".  Maybe these were gay birth control using eagles.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6265
  • Darwins +722/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Hide and Seek World Champion since 1958!
Re: War on religion
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2012, 10:09:21 AM »
Before the war, we let 'em do three. We're really cracking down.

PS, I really hate the 45 second rule. I can post mindless drivel lots faster than that.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline joebbowers

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1074
  • Darwins +91/-47
  • Gender: Male
    • My Photography
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: War on religion
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2012, 10:12:55 AM »
This seems like a violation of the separation of church and state. Allowing one specific religion to violate laws that others can't.

Then again, do we have the right to dictate our laws to them on their own land?

Hell yes, we do!
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline atheola

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1203
  • Darwins +26/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • Hospitals suck past an hour.
Re: War on religion
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2012, 10:50:47 AM »
What's all this fuss about eagle rights? Why if eagles want rights they should vote and get jobs.. ~~ Emily Latella  ;D
You better believe it's not butter or you'll burn in hell forever and EVER!
Get on your knees right now and thank GOD for not being real!

Offline joebbowers

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1074
  • Darwins +91/-47
  • Gender: Male
    • My Photography
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: War on religion
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2012, 11:27:07 AM »
I reported this to the FRFF's legal division, let's hope they can stop it.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline pingnak

Re: War on religion
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2012, 06:28:53 PM »
Wrong!

Only Christianity is 'religion'.  Everythin' else iz cults an' EVIL!

Offline atheola

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1203
  • Darwins +26/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • Hospitals suck past an hour.
Re: War on religion
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2012, 06:42:55 PM »
Since there has been no recent scientific evidence to the contrary I say we try the age old rite of tossing a virgin into a volcano and see if the gods are pleased or not..after all...my religion trumps all modern law too...right?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 06:45:51 PM by atheola »
You better believe it's not butter or you'll burn in hell forever and EVER!
Get on your knees right now and thank GOD for not being real!

Offline One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10774
  • Darwins +274/-34
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: War on religion
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2012, 06:44:56 PM »
Since there has been no recent scientific evidence to the contrary I say we try the age old rite of tossing a virgin into a volcano and see if the gods are pleased or not..

Just throw the priests. They've sworn off all that "sin of the flesh" stuff, right? &)
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline atheola

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1203
  • Darwins +26/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • Hospitals suck past an hour.
Re: War on religion
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2012, 06:48:11 PM »
First make the priests pass virginity tests..
You better believe it's not butter or you'll burn in hell forever and EVER!
Get on your knees right now and thank GOD for not being real!

Offline One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10774
  • Darwins +274/-34
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: War on religion
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2012, 06:51:46 PM »
First make the priests pass virginity tests..

The test is throwing them into the volcano. If the gods are not pleased, they'll spit them right back out, unharmed.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline jaimehlers

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4725
  • Darwins +533/-13
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: War on religion
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2012, 07:25:44 PM »
The test is throwing them into the volcano. If the gods are not pleased, they'll spit them right back out, unharmed.
Nah, they'll roast them alive for their pains and then spit lava at everyone else for daring to offend them with a non-virgin.  It's the virgins that get to live in the lava gods' paradise under the mountain, don't you know?

Offline atheola

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1203
  • Darwins +26/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • Hospitals suck past an hour.
Re: War on religion
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2012, 09:11:36 PM »
I just wonder...could a "religion" get gubnit sanction if the primary theme was human virgin sacrifice..
You better believe it's not butter or you'll burn in hell forever and EVER!
Get on your knees right now and thank GOD for not being real!

Offline ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6265
  • Darwins +722/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Hide and Seek World Champion since 1958!
Re: War on religion
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2012, 09:31:15 PM »
I just wonder...could a "religion" get gubnit sanction if the primary theme was human virgin sacrifice..

Darn, you just gave Santorum a new campaign slogan:

When I sacrifice, you die!
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Nick

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10294
  • Darwins +177/-8
  • Gender: Male
Re: War on religion
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2012, 11:01:58 PM »
Wasn't there a religion that said their members had to smoke pot or some drug out in the Southwest?
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline atheola

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1203
  • Darwins +26/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • Hospitals suck past an hour.
Re: War on religion
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2012, 02:58:54 AM »
I just wonder...could a "religion" get gubnit sanction if the primary theme was human virgin sacrifice..

Darn, you just gave Santorum a new campaign slogan:
just doing my part for god, country, tricky ricky and republicans everywhere..
When I sacrifice, you die!
You better believe it's not butter or you'll burn in hell forever and EVER!
Get on your knees right now and thank GOD for not being real!

Offline One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10774
  • Darwins +274/-34
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: War on religion
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2012, 03:01:05 AM »
Nah, they'll roast them alive for their pains and then spit lava at everyone else for daring to offend them with a non-virgin.  It's the virgins that get to live in the lava gods' paradise under the mountain, don't you know?

jaimehlers, as the LORD your GOD I demand that you trust me. If you throw non-virgins into the volcano, I will personally make sure that they are thrown back out, unharmed.
Now put those priests in line and sacrifice them, as your GOD demands. >:(
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline atheola

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1203
  • Darwins +26/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • Hospitals suck past an hour.
Re: War on religion
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2012, 03:01:39 AM »
Android phones suck at quotes.. >:(
You better believe it's not butter or you'll burn in hell forever and EVER!
Get on your knees right now and thank GOD for not being real!

Offline ungod

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 580
  • Darwins +15/-9
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: War on religion
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2012, 04:53:46 AM »
The US Fish and Wildlife Service is allowing the Northern Arapaho Tribe in Wyoming to kill 2 Bald Eagles for religious purposes.

They should really be offered some bald alternatives, that would benefit the entire planet...



Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

"What good fortune for those in power that people do not think." - Hitler

Offline atheola

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1203
  • Darwins +26/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • Hospitals suck past an hour.
Re: War on religion
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2012, 11:56:24 AM »
When I die they can scalp me and display my bald skull, dance around and pray to the great spirit for eagles to become common as pigeons in the city.. :P
You better believe it's not butter or you'll burn in hell forever and EVER!
Get on your knees right now and thank GOD for not being real!

Offline joebbowers

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1074
  • Darwins +91/-47
  • Gender: Male
    • My Photography
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: War on religion
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2012, 06:16:42 AM »
The FFRF replied to my email and said they are now looking into it.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline monkeymind

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2592
  • Darwins +44/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I don't understand what I know about it!
    • How To Know If You Are A Real Christian
Re: War on religion
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2012, 06:45:19 AM »
The Arapaho nation is just that..a nation. They are (sort of) a sovereign nation (along with the Shoshone) within the US territory.

Although they have the right to self-govern, Trust Doctrine, which governs US-Tribal relations may have a bering on the issue of Eagles. The US has feduciary responsibility when it comes to trust lands (the US gvrmnt holds the deed of the land in trust) and management responsibilities in regards to resources associated with trust lands, including mineral, oil, water, timber and gas.

I don't know if animals are considered a "resource."

http://www.namsinc.org/pdf/Soverign%20nation%20white%20paper%202.pdf
Quote
Tribal sovereignty in the United States refers to the inherent authority of indigenous tribes to govern themselves within the borders of the United States of America. The federal government recognizes tribal nations as "domestic dependent nations" and has established a number of laws attempting to clarify the relationship between the federal, state, and tribal governments. The Constitution and later federal laws grant local sovereignty to tribal nations, yet do not grant full sovereignty equivalent to foreign nations, hence the term "domestic dependent nations".
      and
Quote
Trust Relationship. The federal government has a "duty to protect" the tribes, implying (courts have found) the necessary legislative and executive authorities to effect that duty.
     and
Quote
Tribal sovereignty is dependent on, and subordinate to, only the federal government, not states, under Washington v. Confederated Tribes of Colville Indian Reservation, (1980). Tribes are sovereign over tribal members and tribal land, under United States v. Mazurie (1975).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribal_sovereignty_in_the_United_States

I suspect the feds can stop the killing of eagles, if they wanted to, regardless of religious practices involved. The issue of religious practices has been central to Indian relations. Calling them to task on this will stir up a lot of anger.
Quote


Federal Indian Law

When we enter into the realm of "federal Indian law," we need to keep in mind that we are traveling in a semantic world created by one group to rule another. The terminology of law is a powerful naming process. In working with this law, we will use the names that it uses, but we will always want to keep in mind that the reality behind the names is what we are struggling over.

According to the theory of sovereignty in federal Indian law, "tribal" peoples have a lesser form of "sovereignty," which is not really sovereignty at all, but dependence. In the words of Chief Justice John Marshall in Cherokee Nation v. Georgia (1831), American Indian societies, though they are "nations" in the general sense of the word, are not fully sovereign, but are "domestic, dependent nations." The shell game of American Indian sovereignty -- the "now you see it, now you don't" quality -- started right at the beginning of federal Indian law. The foundation of federal Indian law is the assertion by the United States of a special kind of non-sovereign sovereignty.

http://www.umass.edu/legal/derrico/nowyouseeit.html
« Last Edit: March 17, 2012, 07:01:29 AM by monkeymind »
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline monkeymind

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2592
  • Darwins +44/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I don't understand what I know about it!
    • How To Know If You Are A Real Christian
Re: War on religion
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2012, 07:15:35 AM »
Although this doesn't affect me directly (as I am not a registered tribal member) the idea of stirring up s**t over eagle feathers really has me upset. This has been going on for a long time:

Quote
The eagle feather law has incited ongoing debate over the criteria of ownership and possession of eagles and eagle parts based on race or ethnicity and Native American tribal membership. There have been several legal challenges to the eagle feather law in which the law’s constitutionality and effects of racial segregation and racial preferences have been called into question.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_feather_law

Bringing religion into the issue will only stoke the fires higher. Do you really want to do this?

If you could outlaw bibles incense, crosses, etc. would you do that? In my opinion, this is taking things too far.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2012, 07:55:16 AM by monkeymind »
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline Historicity

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2350
  • Darwins +80/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • (Rama, avatar of Vishnu)
Re: War on religion
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2012, 08:55:11 AM »
Decades ago I saw a note in a newspaper that an ex-Jewish atheist in New York state was suing to stop kosher slaughter.  Other than that the state required that the animals be knocked unconscious by an electric shock thru the brain.  Judaism requires that the animal know it's being cut up.

Offline joebbowers

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1074
  • Darwins +91/-47
  • Gender: Male
    • My Photography
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: War on religion
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2012, 09:03:58 AM »
The FFRF replied to my email and said they are now looking into it.

Monkeymind apparently thought I deserved a negative karma for that. For what exactly? Reporting a church/state violation to an organization that works to preserve it?

D-bag.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10774
  • Darwins +274/-34
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: War on religion
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2012, 09:07:35 AM »
Monkeymind apparently thought I deserved a negative karma for that. For what exactly? Reporting a church/state violation to an organization that works to preserve it?

This.
monkeymind, would you mind explaining what the -1 was for?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline monkeymind

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2592
  • Darwins +44/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I don't understand what I know about it!
    • How To Know If You Are A Real Christian
Re: War on religion
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2012, 09:19:02 AM »
Monkeymind apparently thought I deserved a negative karma for that. For what exactly? Reporting a church/state violation to an organization that works to preserve it?

This.
monkeymind, would you mind explaining what the -1 was for?

Sure. First this:
I suppose it was also "alright" that my white ancestors murdered Native Americans and stole their land, because they were on a mission from "God."

I'm sure glad they did, who the hell wants to live in England?
I thought this was a careless attempt at humor, and insulting to my ancestors on both sides of the ocean...but then this:

The FFRF replied to my email and said they are now looking into it.

A thoughtless move on Joe's part. And now calling me a d-bag for my opinion already expressed here:

Quote
Bringing religion into the issue will only stoke the fires higher. Do you really want to do this?

If you could outlaw bibles incense, crosses, etc. would you do that? In my opinion, this is taking things too far.
Domestic Dependent Nation, Trust Law, Sovereignty and US/Tribal relations are  complicated subjects, and if others believe that allowing Native Americans the right to have eagle feathers is just a church/state violation, then I got nothing else to say.


« Last Edit: March 17, 2012, 09:20:37 AM by monkeymind »
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline Bad Pear

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 238
  • Darwins +16/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Observations from one bad fruit to the bunch.
Re: War on religion
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2012, 11:04:48 AM »
The FFRF replied to my email and said they are now looking into it.

A thoughtless move on Joe's part.

I must disagree with you here MM, Joe is right on the money.

Quote from: monkeymind
Bringing religion into the issue will only stoke the fires higher. Do you really want to do this?

If you could outlaw bibles incense, crosses, etc. would you do that? In my opinion, this is taking things too far.

Non-religious individuals can own bibles, incense, and crosses freely. We cannot hunt and kill bald eagles freely, nor can we obtain a permit to do so on a limited basis. These people can for religious reasons. Apples and beautifully feathered oranges my friend.

According to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service[1] I can face a year in jail and up to $5,000 in fines for merely disturbing one yet an exception is be made for some for religious reasons. Give me a break.
Quote
..."Take" includes pursue, shoot, shoot at, poison, wound, kill, capture, trap, collect, molest or disturb.

*Edited to fix quotes.
 1. http://www.fws.gov/midwest/eagle/protect/laws.html
« Last Edit: March 17, 2012, 11:11:17 AM by Bad Pear »
Atheism is not a mission to convert the world. It only seems that way because when other religions implode, atheism is what is left behind

Offline monkeymind

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2592
  • Darwins +44/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I don't understand what I know about it!
    • How To Know If You Are A Real Christian
Re: War on religion
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2012, 07:18:38 PM »
Non-religious individuals can own bibles, incense, and crosses freely. We cannot hunt and kill bald eagles freely, nor can we obtain a permit to do so on a limited basis. These people can for religious reasons. Apples and beautifully feathered oranges my friend.
Personally, I hate religion and I think it is silly to need eagle feathers for a religious ceremony. This is not about religion though. Even if it was, the Religious Freedom Act didn't come around until 1978. Let the Arapaho have their 2 eagles. There isn't going to be a rush on eagle feathers all of the sudden. Most tribes do not need to kill their eagles and they raise them or get feathers from a federal depository.

And it sounds like you're more upset that you do not have an equal right to the feathers.  As for your feather envy, Arapaho (and other tribes) are equally frustrated that they can not give eagle feathers to non tribal members as part of their tradition.

Eagle feathers are used for other reasons besides religious ceremonies. It is a large part of Native American Indian culture. This is more than a religious issue and always has been. It is a matter of sovereignty. And it is a racial issue.





Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline Bad Pear

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 238
  • Darwins +16/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Observations from one bad fruit to the bunch.
Re: War on religion
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2012, 07:47:30 PM »
I have no interest in eagles except as a beautiful part of nature, but I get upset every time I see a double standard being applied by government.

To be clear: I have an issue with this type of preferential treatment regardless of what it is based on. Be it religious, cultural, or racial, it is still unjust.
Atheism is not a mission to convert the world. It only seems that way because when other religions implode, atheism is what is left behind