Author Topic: Have a go at Islam already  (Read 3533 times)

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Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #87 on: March 19, 2012, 06:33:47 PM »
Hi KB

I need to apologise - I don't think I have the time and energy to address your post in depth as I had promised.

I know many skeptics and atheists cannot reconcile OT God with love, and I can certainly see why. I certainly struggle with understanding and accepting many aspects of the bible.

I assume you've read Christian apologist responses to these difficult passages, and I doubt I'd provide anything more compelling than their thoughts and suggestions.

Sorry KB

This is very honest of you (even if you broke your promise :P) to admit this. I agree, you likely wouldn't be able to provide anything more compelling than any Christian apologist, but that is through no fault of your own. It's merely the lack of evidence to support it. There's nothing more compelling to be had. Unless Jesus made a home video[1] of himself moving a mountain through willpower alone, it's going to be hard to convince me.
 1. Being a divine being, he should not have the same technological limitations as his primitive mortal contemporaries.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline kin hell

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #88 on: March 19, 2012, 08:11:47 PM »

I know many skeptics and atheists cannot reconcile OT God with love, and I can certainly see why. I certainly struggle with understanding and accepting many aspects of the bible.

I assume you've read Christian apologist responses to these difficult passages, and I doubt I'd provide anything more compelling than their thoughts and suggestions.

Sorry KB

So the real questions are  (and I ask this with total sincerity mm)

1. how do you decide which parts of the bible are accurate?
2. which parts (if any) of the bible can you personally not accept as accurate representation of a god of love?
3. do you acknowledge that if the bible is your only source of external evidence of your god (from the breath of god), and it suffers from apparently irreconcilable flaws, then your source material is questionable, and by definition then the accuracy of the description of your god is likewise questionable?


Again I am not being aggressive when I point out that the point of engagement at which you shied away (and I am not disparaging the reality of time constraints) is exactly the point at which many theists shy.
Notably at exactly the point where the internal inconsistencies of the bible become so apparent as to be indefensible.

The act of disengagement here at this point certainly will free up your time, but it will also enable you not to have to explain your method of being able to juggle the apparent inconsistencies against your continued faith.

It also enables you not to have to publicly "consider" your source, nor question its validity.

It also enables you not to have to define what level of flaw is acceptable in the word of god, and more importantly what level of cognitive dissonance are you willing to live with so as to maintain your faith.

It seems (without meaning any disrespect) from an observers pov, that to maintain faith against v significant evidences of basic flaws in the foundations of ones beliefs requires, first and foremost, a deliberate intellectual dishonesty.

The act of shying away from the sticking point definitely serves the purpose of not having to internally acknowledge the existence of the requirement for that intellectual dishonesty.
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all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #89 on: March 20, 2012, 01:51:48 AM »
I have a little time this afternoon as it turns out, so I will respond with a dot point summary addressing the matters Kin Hell brings up, which should then also address KB's post on the OT bible passages ( although not directly )

* I have not studied any of the original languages in which the bible was written. I, like the vast majority of Christians, am relying on the fact that the exisiting earliest manuscripts are accurate copies of the originals. The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls inspired a lot of confidence in that regard. Still, it simply isn't possible for me or anybody else to guarantee that the bible we have today doesn't have some errors, if for no other reason than the fact that none of the original biblical languages exist today in the same way as they did ( or so I'm told ).
I also have only a vague understanding of the canonisation process - this is something my church shall be studying next year and something I'm looking forward to.
Having said that, I have complete confidence that the many scholars who have studied the original languages, the canonisation process and also the cultures of biblical times have done so diligently and honestly. It isn't a matter of requiring confidence in that for me to believe - rather, I believe, and having believed I am willing to accept that the bible I read is very much the writing God inspired through the human authors.
Perhaps parrallels could be drawn with evolutionary theory - what percentage of atheists rely on the fact that the scientific experiments, observations etc have been done correctly, due to the fact that so many scirntists are in agreement?

* Why do I believe? Because when I see the world I see a creator, because when the bible describes the sinful human condition I recognised myself and because when I read the bible I just can't shake the feeling that I'm not reading fiction. It blows my mind that anyone sees fiction in the bible the same way it clearly amazes yours that I see truth. How can you explain that? I dunno, other than to say that even i wouldn't see truth if God didn't allow me to? Does that mean God is deliberately blocking some from recognising truth? I do not know that either, and I don't think its important to my faith, although I know its a massive stumbling block for some. Why should it though? I mean, if you are down to the point where that;s the only thing stopping you from genuinely repenting, thats just pure ego, because its saying to God that He has no right to do something, as though you know better. It's logical to me that a creator knows more about His creation than His creation does.

* I don't consider that the bible has any real inconsitencies that don't have adequate explanations which are more than just weak attempts to excuse blatant errors etc. I think the biggest strength of the bible is its ability to convict people despite the fact it seems a bit all over the place sometimes. The OT consistently, yes sometimes very strangely and disturbingly, tells of a God who demands our worship and won't accept any alternative. God tied His name to the nation of Israel, who fell away from God time and again. It was through Israel that God planned to reconcile the world to Him once for all - thus the life,
death and resurrection of Jesus is repeatedly prophesised. The NT then tells of Jesus, and what He means to the world.

* Is God loving even if He allows or even orders mass murder? I believe its possible to say so, and I say so on the premise from earlier, that God knows us better than we do, and can achieve His goal of reconciling humanity to Him by establishing the nation of Israel through whom Jesus was born. Establishing the nation of Israel sometimes meant taking drastic actions which seem abhorrent to us. Contaext and perspective are so important, and remember that we'll automatically assume the worst of someone we are unsure of or dislike. If you refuse to accept the bigger picture, of course you won't accept the artwork.

* And it all boils down, eventually, to having an appreciation of how great God is. It;s always been key for me, when I have looked at the OT weirdness and violence and horror, and thought God must indeed be evil if He exists at all. I've had those thoughts and struggled with them, but something always makes me see that I am a created being and I live in a created world, and that the creator loved His creation so much that He was willing to suffer for it. I don't know why, and I sure wish I did have all the answers. But what I do know, I know with such certainty that I can't deny it.

I hope that provides some sort of insight into the way i see things
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Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #90 on: March 20, 2012, 01:59:00 AM »
I can relate MM. Bless you Brother.

Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #91 on: March 20, 2012, 07:15:36 AM »
I have a little time this afternoon as it turns out, so I will respond with a dot point summary addressing the matters Kin Hell brings up, which should then also address KB's post on the OT bible passages ( although not directly )
I look forward to this.
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* I have not studied any of the original languages in which the bible was written.
Nor have most people, including myself. No harm there.
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I, like the vast majority of Christians, am relying on the fact that the exisiting earliest manuscripts are accurate copies of the originals. The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls inspired a lot of confidence in that regard. Still, it simply isn't possible for me or anybody else to guarantee that the bible we have today doesn't have some errors, if for no other reason than the fact that none of the original biblical languages exist today in the same way as they did ( or so I'm told ).
What a brilliant plan. A divine being, dictating his inerrant and timeless truth, in languages that will some day no longer be spoken or understood. Genius. Exactly what I would do if I wanted to communicate the most important message in the Universe.[1]What way do you have of knowing what those errors might be, and how would you correct them? What if the word meaning "salvation" really means "starvation"? You would have absolutely no means at all of determining if even a single word of the Bible is accurate or even true.
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I also have only a vague understanding of the canonisation process - this is something my church shall be studying next year and something I'm looking forward to.
Having said that, I have complete confidence that the many scholars who have studied the original languages, the canonisation process and also the cultures of biblical times have done so diligently and honestly.
You don't consider it even remotely possible then, that at some point a long time ago, a powerful ruler (perhaps named Constantine) decided that this new religion (and many of its teachings) would be easily exploitable in order to grant oneself divine authority of a new kind?
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It isn't a matter of requiring confidence in that for me to believe - rather, I believe, and having believed I am willing to accept that the bible I read is very much the writing God inspired through the human authors.
You are going about determining truth in the exact opposite way that you would for anything and everything else in the real world.
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Perhaps parrallels could be drawn with evolutionary theory - what percentage of atheists rely on the fact that the scientific experiments, observations etc have been done correctly, due to the fact that so many scirntists are in agreement? 

Ah but see, since the Bible is divinely revealed truth, it is not subject to peer review, or replication, or the impressions of others. If it was divinely influenced, it should be utterly flawless in every respect[2] and not require any special skill or interpretation. All of God's followers should instinctively and intuitively understand the Bible and draw the same conclusions from it. This is not what happens. Note also that scientists of all "denominations" believe in evolution. Do all denominations of Christianity place a ton of importance on the Virgin Mary? I think not....
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* Why do I believe? Because when I see the world I see a creator,
Explain how this is so.
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because when the bible describes the sinful human condition

A condition that exists in spite of God knowing it would, having created us the way we are and having determined our fates before creation. God lied to and threatened Adam, and then punished Adam and Eve and EVERYONE ELSE FOREVER for a victimless crime, a crime that actually elevated humans above the obedient, mindless slaves that God intended them to be. God didn't want them to know good or evil, because he didn't want them to question all of the evil that he would order to be done. If you say that this isn't so, then why the threat? Why the lie? Why the fear? Why the childlike jealous anger? Don't you think its a little appalling to consider yourself fundamentally and irretrievably flawed and sinful for something you didn't do? Do you like being an emotional slave to an imaginary friend?
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I recognised myself and because when I read the bible I just can't shake the feeling that I'm not reading fiction. It blows my mind that anyone sees fiction in the bible the same way it clearly amazes yours that I see truth.

Sure, because what could possibly be fictitious about a book that casually mentions talking snakes and wizardry (note: this also happens in Harry Potter. I guess Harry Potter must be true, according to your standards of the truth). 
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How can you explain that? I dunno, other than to say that even i wouldn't see truth if God didn't allow me to?

I think that is easily explained. When writing a book, even a work of fiction, authors typically use themes and stories that are meant to evoke real emotions, and to somehow relate to the world we live in. It is very easy to read a good book and become absorbed in the characters, in the plot line, that you become emotionally involved yourself. You know intellectually that it is not real, but you suspend that temporarily so that you can enjoy the book. However, when you are done reading the book, you turn your reality checking apparatus back on, and say “Gee that was a good book”. You don't automatically start searching for Horcruxes in order to defeat the Dark Lord.
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Does that mean God is deliberately blocking some from recognising truth?
Well, since God says he does, that would be a reasonable conclusion.
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I do not know that either,
*sigh* then try reading the Bible.
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and I don't think its important to my faith,
you should, since false prophets are to be put to death, even if deceived by God himself.
 
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although I know its a massive stumbling block for some. Why should it though? I mean, if you are down to the point where that;s the only thing stopping you from genuinely repenting, thats just pure ego, because its saying to God that He has no right to do something, as though you know better.

So you're taking Pascal's Wager, with the additional wager that not only is your God the right one, but that he is not deliberately misleading you just for shits and giggles. Because he does that according to the Bible. You would have no means of determining if God is planting false messages into your mind. Scary stuff, man. Also, you are saying that it is best to assume that there is an all powerful being who looks out for you, is willing to suspend the general operating principles of the Universe in your favor, has specially chosen you, and will grant you eternal asylum in paradise. THAT is pure ego.
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It's logical to me that a creator knows more about His creation than His creation does.
In spite of the fact that it is not logical to assume the creator in the first place
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* I don't consider that the bible has any real inconsitencies that don't have adequate explanations which are more than just weak attempts to excuse blatant errors etc.

Yet when asked you couldn't provide any adequate explanations, because in your heart you know that they are just weak attempts to excuse blatant errors.
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I think the biggest strength of the bible is its ability to convict people despite the fact it seems a bit all over the place sometimes.
That makes me cringe. It's best attribute is that people are willing to buy into it in spite of the fact that it is bullshit? Your brain sure was washed well.
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The OT consistently, yes sometimes very strangely and disturbingly, tells of a God who demands our worship and won't accept any alternative.
Oh he does accept an alternative. Death and destruction and terror.  Just what you would expect from a kind, loving, merciful God. What is the use of a God who declares things evil, and then commands you to do them?
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God tied His name to the nation of Israel, who fell away from God time and again. It was through Israel that God planned to reconcile the world to Him once for all - thus the life,
death and resurrection of Jesus is repeatedly prophesised. The NT then tells of Jesus, and what He means to the world.
Yeah, the world we live in sure looks reconciled to him, once and for all. Peace and harmony and brotherly love in the holy land, right? Yeah I thought so.
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* Is God loving even if He allows or even orders mass murder?
No.
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I believe its possible to say so, and I say so on the premise from earlier, that God knows us better than we do, and can achieve His goal of reconciling humanity to Him by establishing the nation of Israel through whom Jesus was born.
So you approve of acts of great evil, as long as God says so. Yet, you don't have the confidence of your faith just come out and admit that GOD DOES EVIL THINGS and YOU ARE OK WITH THAT. Instead you offer the same tired excuses that it must be good and righteous and just if God wants it done. The problem is that it is not possible to determine “legitimate commands from God” from “edicts issued by psychopaths”. I would argue there is no difference at all.
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Establishing the nation of Israel sometimes meant taking drastic actions which seem abhorrent to us.
Establishing the nation of Israel the United States of America sometimes meant taking drastic actions which seem abhorrent to us. There, see how that can be easily used to justify the extermination of a defenseless people such as the Native Americans? Or consider this revision: Establishing the nation of Israel Third Reich sometimes meant taking drastic actions which seem abhorrent to us. Doesn't seem like such a comfortable excuse now, does it? Tell me, what level of atrocity is the limit for God? Global genocide, perhaps? 
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Contaext and perspective are so important, and remember that we'll automatically assume the worst of someone we are unsure of or dislike. If you refuse to accept the bigger picture, of course you won't accept the artwork.
I disagree. I loathe Newt Gingrich. However, yesterday on YouTube I watched a discussion that was taped in 2002 I believe between Newt Gingrich and Christopher Hitchens. I found Newt's comments to be thoughtful and honest, even if I didn't always agree with him. Even though I don't like Newt at all, it didn't lead me to automatically dismiss what he was saying. It still doesn't make me think he's any less of an asshole. I think it's pretty fair to “assume the worst” of a God who is guilty of as many crimes as yours. Did you know that, for those whom the Bible gives numbers, God kills 2,476,636  people in the Bible? That's not counting atrocities for which no number is given (like the Great flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc). I will happily assume the worst of such an individual, and justifiably so.
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* And it all boils down, eventually, to having an appreciation of how great God is.
Sure, if you consider rape, murder, genocide, racism, sexism, human and animal sacrifice, ethnocentrism and piles of foreskins great.
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It;s always been key for me, when I have looked at the OT weirdness and violence and horror, and thought God must indeed be evil if He exists at all.
YES! YES! YES! Now you're onto something!
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I've had those thoughts and struggled with them, but something always makes me see that I am a created being and I live in a created world, and that the creator loved His creation so much that He was willing to suffer for it.
dammit, lost you. He was willing to suffer for it huh? Sacrificed himself, did he? Tell me, if someone knows that they will experience a few hours of terrible pain and humiliation and then death, only to be resurrected again and live forever as co-ruler of the universe, is that really much of a sacrifice? Is his suffering really that admirable? Do you not see how revolting it is that believers like you find peace and comfort in the brutal torture and death of another human being, who you claim was innocent?
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I don't know why, and I sure wish I did have all the answers. But what I do know, I know with such certainty that I can't deny it.
Pretty disappointing isn't it, that even though you have God's alleged autobiography, and a personal relationship with the ruler of the cosmos, that you have no more or better answers than a pitiful, soulless, doomed Atheist like myself?
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I hope that provides some sort of insight into the way i see things

You have no idea......


EDIT: Minor formatting and grammatical/spelling errors, added link to God's Murder List.
 1. This assumes that God actually did this. I'm being hypothetical here.
 2. unless the divine being doing the inspiring was in fact flawed
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 07:43:33 AM by kaziglu bey »
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #92 on: March 20, 2012, 07:45:16 AM »
I can relate MM. Bless you Brother.

You also happily justify mass murder, ethnic cleansing, rape, sexism, and human sacrifice?
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline velkyn

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #93 on: March 20, 2012, 09:02:41 AM »
MM, 

I’ve a question.  Do you accept that Dianetics, the book that the Scientologists use, is valid since there are many copies of it and that the copies have been accurately reproduced? 

If not, then you see my problem with your claims about the bible being true for just those reasons.  We have thousands of sects, all who claim that their interpretation of the bible is the only “correct” one.  So much for your claim that there should be any confidence in any scholars. 

And then you show how ignorant you are of evolutionary theory and science.  The experiments, etc have been done and agree with what we know of physical and chemical laws.  We never see some magical thing happen.  And scientists love to disprove each other, so again, the lies of creationists about science being some kind of dogma, is repeatedly shown to be the pathetic attempt at deceit it is. 

You want ot claim that it’s your creator that created the universe.  Okay, evidence for that please.  Show me that any creator exists and show me it’s your particular one.  Each religion claims the same thing, so please so show me it’s not Tezcatlipoca, Allah, the mother goddess, etc.  I don’t care what your feelings are, MM.  Your feelings are no more valid than the feeling that the mother who killed her children had that told her her god wanted her to kill her children.

I think it’s particularly precious that you don’t care if your god intentionally damns people.  As long as MM gets is magical presents, all is good with you.  I do like to see that my hypothesis that all that motivates Christians is greed and fear to be supported again.  It’s also cute to see you claim “but I don’t known what the real story is” but then turn around and claim that it’s only “ego” that keeps anyone from god. 

Your bible doesn’t convict people at all.  It’s the lies that Chritians tell about their bible that convinces people that it has any truth at all.  From personal experience, I know that Christians avoid telling people all about their bible and what problems it has.  Heck, even C.S. Lewis said it was necessary to lie to potential converts about how great the bible is. 
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And secondly, I think we must admit that the discussion of these disputed points has no tendency at all to bring an outsider into the Christian fold. So long as we write and talk about them we are much more likely to deter him from entering any Christian communion than to draw him into our own. Our divisions should never be discussed except in the presence of those who have already come to believe that there is one God and that Jesus Christ is His only Son" (p.vi).  – Mere Christianity
 
All you have is “might equals right”.  That anything that your god does is okay as long as god does it.  Genocide, murdering children, lying, is all okay with you.  Again, as long as you get your magic presents, you accept anything.  You can be bought.   
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #94 on: March 20, 2012, 11:26:22 AM »
I, like the vast majority of Christians, am relying on the fact that the exisiting earliest manuscripts are accurate copies of the originals.

They aren't, though, because in the synoptic tradition, there are no originals; just an evolving slush. Justin Martyr is recorded as as writing an apology and a dialogue with Trypho, and he's working from a different mushy version of Matthew and Luke. Apologists say that he's working from a 'harmony', but it can't be true, because often there is no parallel verse to harmonize, or clauses/words dropped, that should have been in a harmony.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm  <-- First Apology
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0128.htm  <-- Trypho

Looking at the gospel that JM is apparently quoting from, and comparing it to the modern versions, you can see that the quotes are just composed the way the current redactor feels they should be arranged, like a musical arrangement. The Qumran scrolls verified that some books of the OT were very similar to the Masoretic texts, but others had variants.

The fact that we have Matthew/Mark/and JM's text/Luke (4 synoptic variants) shows that no section of the synoptic can be trusted to verse-level accuracy. Further, the modern Matthew and Luke seem to be derived from JM's version, rather than a 'harmony'. Matthew is a much more bloated expansion on JM's version. Subtle word changes show that it's not just JM dropping bits for brevity.

I've put the quotes from JM in blue, followed by quotes from Matthew or Luke

Many false Christs and false apostles shall arise, and shall deceive many of the faithful.' Matthew 24:11
[11] And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

'The law and the prophets were until John the Baptist; from that time the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force. And if you can receive it, he is Elijah, who was to come. He that has ears to hear, let him hear.' Matthew 11:12-15
[12] And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
[13] For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
[14] And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
[15] He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
(law and prophets is the Lukan distortion)

'Many shall say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not eaten, and drunk, and prophesied, and cast out demons in Your name? And I will say to them, Depart from Me.' Matthew 7:22
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

'Depart into outer darkness, which the Father has prepared for Satan and his, angels.' Matthew 25:41
[41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

'The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the Scribes and Pharisees, and be crucified, and on the third day rise again.' Luke 9:22
[22] Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

They shall neither marry nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal to the angels, the children of the God of the resurrection.' Luke 20:35f.
[35] But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
[36] Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

'No man knows the Father but the Son; nor the Son but the Father, and they to whom the Son will reveal Him.' Matthew 11:27
[27] ... and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

If you love them that love you, what new thing are you doing? For even fornicators do this.
[46] For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

Give to him that asks, and from him that would borrow turn not away; for if you lend to them of whom you hope to receive, what new thing are you doing. Even the publicans do this.
[42] Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. (missing next statement)

"Take no thought what you shall eat, or what you shall put on: are you not better than the birds and the beasts? And God feeds them. Take no thought, therefore, what you shall eat, or what you shall put on; for your heavenly Father knows that you have need of these things. But seek the kingdom of heaven, and all these things shall be added unto you. For where his treasure is, there also is the mind of a man." And, "Do not these things to be seen of men; otherwise you have no reward from your Father which is in heaven." Matthew 6:1

Matt
[31] Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
[32] (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
[33] But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Matt
[25] Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
[26] Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
[27] Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

Luke
[22] ...Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on.
[23] The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment.
[24] Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?
[25] And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?
[26] If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?

"Fear not them that kill you, and after that can do no more; but fear Him who after death is able to cast both soul and body into hell." Matthew 10:28
[28] And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

"Behold, you shall conceive of the Holy Ghost, and shall bear a Son, and He shall be called the Son of the Highest, and you shall call His name Jesus; for He shall save His people from their sins,"
Luke
[31] And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
[32] He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
[33] And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Matt
[20] But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
[21] And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.



To him that smites you on the one cheek, offer also the other; and him that takes away your cloak or coat, forbid not.
[39] But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
[40] And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.

And whosoever shall be angry, is in danger of the fire.
That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:

"Swear not at all; but let your yea be yea, and your nay, nay; for whatsoever is more than these comes of evil." Matthew 5:34, 27
[34] But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
[35] Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
[36] Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
[37] But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

"For many shall come in My name, clothed outwardly in sheep's clothing, but inwardly being ravening wolves. By their works you shall know them. And every tree that brings not forth good fruit, is hewn down and cast into the fire."
[15] Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
[16] Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
[17] Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
[18] A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
[19] Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
[20] Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
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« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 11:31:45 AM by Add Homonym »
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.