Author Topic: Have a go at Islam already  (Read 2951 times)

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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #58 on: March 15, 2012, 03:31:48 AM »
Quite simply, I see the opposite of danger in Christianity, eternally speaking. Any other worldview has terrible eternal consequences.

You assert this because the amateur philosopher (and heretic) Paul says that. Paul's view is that you cannot be saved by good works; he never shows any evidence/proof, but instead argues it from his incorrect view of the OT. The writers of Matthew, being the judiazers that Paul detests, do not give any indication that you should worship Jesus, because it would be anathema. The book of Matthew has similar sentiments to the Quran: do good things and be as perfect as you can. In the Quran, Allah is seen as a generally merciful chap, who lets you fast away all your sin. Accidentally kill a believer - punishment options (1) free a believing slave, (2) fast for a while, (3) forget about it.

The reason why you have fallen for Paul's propaganda, is that he has fallaciously (also) convinced you that God shows absolutely no mercy to anyone that doesn't believe what Paul says. This is a view that's somewhat alien to Judaism. (It's just a tactic of anyone who preaches a different religion. Believe what I say, or you will go to hell. It's what Islam says about you.)

This is why Christianity does not know its tit from its arse.

At least the Quran says Allah is a merciful chap, whereas the Christian god is a tyrant, who sends everyone to hell, even if they are v. v. good. What do you have to do, to go to heaven under the Christian system? Who knows? Give all your money away, pluck out your right eye, or sit on your arse and do nothing? Could be anything.

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In the current world, I cannot speak from any real knowledge as I haven't read the Qu'ran.

A true skolar.

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #59 on: March 15, 2012, 03:39:17 AM »
I'm definitely no scholar, although I have certainly read Matthew, and suggest you might look through it again. How does Mathew start, for instance? How does it finish?
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #60 on: March 15, 2012, 06:19:05 AM »

To my knowledge none of our congregations go about preaching that God hates homosexuals. The folk at WBC somehow read the bible and come up with a message of hate rather than a messgae of love, and redemption for those that seek it. They seem to be ignorant of the fact that without the death of Jesus on the cross they have the same chance as anyone of living with God - zero.
I know that opens the bible up to much skepticism, but I think its unjustified.

Lev.18:22, Lev.20:13, Rom.1:26-27 (found here http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Lev.18:22,%20Lev.20:13,%20Rom.1:26-27&version=KJV) From the King James version, follow the link to choose whatever version you like.

Please read the above listed Bible passages, and explain how they demonstrate a message of love and redemption. Then consider how the hateful anti gay vitriol spewed by the WBC is justified by these passages. Please keep in mind that Jesus came to uphold these laws. Please keep in mind also that you are operating on the rather bold and unparsimonious assumption that God exists, is Yahweh, and that Jesus Christ was his divine son. Finally, keep in mind that the WBC operates on this very same assumption.

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See above. Picketing funerals of deceased soldiers..it just takes the message of the bible and craps all over it. Jesus went and loved the outcasts of society. He didn't condone sin, but he didn't condemn sinners. He told them to repent. Thw WBC folk seem to just condemn without trying to even explain the message of the cross. And it's not as though they aren't aware of it...their website appears to have links to the Westminster Confession of Faith ( I couldn't confirm as my adobe is stuffed ). They seem to cherry pick bible pasages with no regard for context and use them to preach a horrible message of hate.
How is this any different from the Christians who cherry pick only the warm, fuzzy, love and peace, hippie Jesus parts of the Bible without regard for context and use it to preach an equally biased version of the Bible? It's still in the Bible. It's God's word. If it is possible that two polar opposite extremes can be manifest from accurate readings of the teachings of the same divinely inspired book, it doesn't help its credibility any.
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No...they're not doing what the bible tells them to. Not even close.
Are you serious? Throughout at least half of the Bible, the followers of God (who are under his direct supervision and taking orders directly from him) are constantly harassing, oppressing, attacking, murdering, raping and enslaving all who are not of their belief system. This is their destiny. This behavior is never once remonstrated either by God in the OT or Jesus in the NT. After all, why would Jesus speak against his father's will? How can you say that such behavior is not Christian, when such behavior is often sanctioned by God in the Christian Bible?

Quote
Perhaps you can specify which passages you have in mind, and I'll be happy to give my perspective.
Honest question here. Is there nothing at all, in any of the Bible's contents, that you find repulsive, immoral, or objectionable?
Well, you could start with the passages I posted in my first paragraph. Also:
Numbers 31:15-18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%2031:15-18&version=KJV) In this charming, love and redemption filled passage, God has all of the Midianites slaughtered, men, women and children. Except for the female virgin children, who were taken by God's warriors to be used as sexual objects.

Or Matthew 27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=MAtthew%2027&version=KJV)
An apparently innocent man is tortured and murdered as a human sacrifice to save the souls of mankind from the eternal wrath of God for something that only two people did a really wrong time ago when they had no ability to properly decide right from wrong and had been lied to and threatened by God. This human sacrifice is celebrated weekly by ritual cannibalism of the deceased. Sounds like love to me.

If you find none of this revolting, or rationalize it by saying "it's not evil if God commands it" (in other words, you approve of mass rape and ethnic cleansing, as long as God says its Ok) then I submit that your moral operating system has a glitch somewhere. 

Quote
Again...lets look at some specific stories, events, and discuss them. So long as you don't mind that I can take a while to respond to posts.

If you are honestly suggesting that you are not aware of "any rape, murder, theft, slavery, racism, sexism, ethnic cleansing, human/animal sacrifice, or global genocide, all done on God's command" in the Bible, then I further submit that you have probably not read the Bible, or at the very least, have only read the parts that you find agreeable. Note that in the Midianite massacre (and other plentiful stories of death, rape and conquest), the champions of God break nearly half the commandments by killing, stealing, coveting others land, and coveting other people's women. Things that even God prohibits as evil are suddenly righteous and noble deeds when commanded by him, and are justified as such even by mainstream believers such as yourself.

Feel free to take as long as you like to respond to posts. I realize it can be time consuming. I hope you don't get the impression that I am hostile towards you personally or anything. That is not the case. I am merely being as honest as possible in my assessment of the matters at hand.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #61 on: March 15, 2012, 08:04:18 AM »
At a risk of evoking the 'one true scotsman' response

No, it's not a No True Scotsman.

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I'd have thought that if Christians really did make up 75-80% of the USA Population then you'd have been living in a theocracy for many years already.

I can understand that, since:

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I don't have a good handle on how your democracy functions.

Which, in this case, at least, is easily explained.

The First Amendment to our Constitution prohibits the government from promoting or endorsing religion in any way, which explains why (for example) there isn't a "Church of America" analogous to the Church of England.  Church/State separation activists use that to prevent our country from becoming a theocracy (and the Religious Right tries very hard to get around the First Amendment, because they hate it and very much want our country to be a religious one).

Good demonstration: There was one case about fifty years ago where public schools in a particular district used to start off each school day with the teacher reading from the Bible.  The family of a non-Christian child in the school brought suit, and the case went all the way to the Supreme Court, which ruled 8-1 that such readings were unconstitutional.[1]

Church/state violations occur with great regularity all over the country.  To be fair, many such cases do appear to be honest mistakes on the part of the entity making them, and a letter from an organization such as the Freedom From Religion Foundation usually receives a polite response, apologizing for the violation and agreeing to correct it.  Other times, though, it gets nasty, the best-known case in modern times probably being Jessica Ahlquist.

If you're interested in hearing more about it, I recommend going to http://www.ffrf.org/ and asking them for a free sample copy of "Freethought Today".  Part of the paper is dedicated to documenting the various complaints that they receive and the action they take to correct them.  (I don't know whether they'll send a copy to an address outside of the US, though.)

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How's the job hunting, btw?

Ugh... don't ask.  It's hard to get kick-started on undertaking what is probably the most unpleasant task I've ever had to deal with in my life, so I haven't been pursuing it as much as I should have.  On the up side, I am getting myself to get a lot of work done around the house, and I've also made a lot of progress on getting my home-based business set up.  Watch the "Chatter" section for an announcement when it's read to go live.  :-)
 1. Abington Township School District v. Schempp (1963)
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #62 on: March 15, 2012, 09:13:09 AM »
At a risk of evoking the 'one true scotsman' response, I'd have thought that if Christians really did make up 75-80% of the USA Population then you'd have been living in a theocracy for many years already. Having said that, I don't have a good handle on how your democracy functions.



Not a true scotsman at all. The watch words that tip off an argument is a "no true Scottman" are things like True, Genuine, Real, actual, and so forth. They aren't required, but if an argument rests on "all REAL "a"s do "x" so that your opponent cannot point to obvious counter examples to invalidate your claim.

The thing is a no true Scottsman can be the truth, but it is still a logical error.

"No real vegetarian would ever eat meat" is true, but it is a logical error

"A vegetarian is a vegetarian" is true but a logical error (tautology) Generally used as a prelude to red herring or an appeal to emotion.

When you realize you are using a no true Scottsman you have to ask yourself "Is there a term that both of us can agree to the definition of, that would preclude those counter examples?"
The issue that Christianity comes in many, many, many flavors...some with wildly divergent viewpoints, so what can we agree as the general definition of Christianity?

I use: Someone who believes in the divine nature of Christ, who died and rose again.

It does disinclude a very tiny minority that lived in the late 1700s, including a person whom I generally admire, Thomas Jefferson. However, I believe, that he may have been using the title as a political sheild.



 
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 09:23:12 AM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #63 on: March 15, 2012, 10:00:04 AM »
Hi there

Quite simply, I see the opposite of danger in Christianity, eternally speaking. Any other worldview has terrible eternal consequences.

In the current world, I cannot speak from any real knowledge as I haven't read the Qu'ran.

I do love how you want people to attack Islam for not being true and you hven't a clue about it.  So what makes you think that Islam isn't true?  Muslims are also quite sure that any other worldview has "terrible eternal consequences".  MM, tell us why Islam is not the "true religion"?   Tell us also why other Christian sects are not the true religion and why your magic decoder ring is the only one that tells the "truth"?  I need evidence that your version of your god is the only one, evidence that any of the essential events in teh bible happened, etc. 

as for how Matthew starts and finishes, each gospel makes different claims and has differnents claims on what happened when.  Rather amusing for a book that yuo claim to have any truth in it. 

"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline Historicity

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #64 on: March 15, 2012, 11:12:33 AM »
At least the Quran says Allah is a merciful chap, whereas the Christian god is a tyrant, who sends everyone to hell, even if they are v. v. good. What do you have to do, to go to heaven under the Christian system? Who knows? Give all your money away, pluck out your right eye, or sit on your arse and do nothing? Could be anything.

The repeated references to Allah the Merciful do not mean that.

Item: On the last day the demons will be ushered into Hell.  Some will protest that they were made that way by God and they were doing their job.  They will be told to shut up.  Moslem theologians conclude with Calvin that God has predestined some to salvation and some to damnation. 

In a hadith Mohammed said that if you committed no sin and did one good deed every 5 minutes all day long then you would be justified before God for just that day.

The Koran repeatedly states that the greatest sin is to make up a lie about God.  That seems to include anyone who disputes Islam.

The Koran repeatedly contradicts itself as to whether God will accept the Xians, Jews and Zoroastrians as some kind of believer or whether He will damn them.   It all depended on whether Mohammed was having a bad hair day when he dictated that verse.

Here's the opinion on that from a well known atheist scientist in the Islamic world:
Quote
As under cover of departing Day   
Slunk hunger-stricken Ramaza´n away,   
  Once more within the Potter’s house alone          
I stood, surrounded by the Shapes of Clay.   

And once again there gather’d a scarce heard   
Whisper among them; as it were, the stirr’d   
  Ashes of some all but extinguisht Tongue,   
Which mine ear kindled into living Word.          

Another said—“Why, ne’er a peevish Boy          
Would break the Cup from which he drank in Joy;   
  Shall He that of His own free Fancy made   
The Vessel, in an after-rage destroy!”   

None answer’d this; but after silence spake   
Some Vessel of a more ungainly Make;          
  “They sneer at me for leaning all awry:   
What! did the Hand then of the Potter shake?”   
 
Said one—“Folks of a surly Master tell,   
And daub his Visage with the Smoke of Hell;   
  They talk of some sharp Trial of us—Pish!   
He’s a Good Fellow, and ’twill all be well."

From the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam.   Khayyam was an astronomer who believed the Earth circled the Sun, in contradiction to a number of Mohammed's sayings.  He set Persia back on the track of a solar year even tho Arabia had had a solar year and Mohammed decreed it must go back to a lunar year.  Khayyam had political cover which is why he survived while doing this.  After his and the Shah's death, Persia went back to the Islamic lunar year and remained with that till the 20th century.   The Persians knew Khayyam was an atheist or agnostic tho he remained closeted about it.   His cynicism about Islam is notable in the verses above.

Pious Persians have been known to cross the country just to come and desecrate Khayyam's grave.

Here is The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam in Fitzegerald's 2nd edtiion.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #65 on: March 15, 2012, 05:15:56 PM »

To my knowledge none of our congregations go about preaching that God hates homosexuals. The folk at WBC somehow read the bible and come up with a message of hate rather than a messgae of love, and redemption for those that seek it. They seem to be ignorant of the fact that without the death of Jesus on the cross they have the same chance as anyone of living with God - zero.
I know that opens the bible up to much skepticism, but I think its unjustified.

Lev.18:22, Lev.20:13, Rom.1:26-27 (found here http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Lev.18:22,%20Lev.20:13,%20Rom.1:26-27&version=KJV) From the King James version, follow the link to choose whatever version you like.

Please read the above listed Bible passages, and explain how they demonstrate a message of love and redemption. Then consider how the hateful anti gay vitriol spewed by the WBC is justified by these passages. Please keep in mind that Jesus came to uphold these laws. Please keep in mind also that you are operating on the rather bold and unparsimonious assumption that God exists, is Yahweh, and that Jesus Christ was his divine son. Finally, keep in mind that the WBC operates on this very same assumption.

Quote

See above. Picketing funerals of deceased soldiers..it just takes the message of the bible and craps all over it. Jesus went and loved the outcasts of society. He didn't condone sin, but he didn't condemn sinners. He told them to repent. Thw WBC folk seem to just condemn without trying to even explain the message of the cross. And it's not as though they aren't aware of it...their website appears to have links to the Westminster Confession of Faith ( I couldn't confirm as my adobe is stuffed ). They seem to cherry pick bible pasages with no regard for context and use them to preach a horrible message of hate.
How is this any different from the Christians who cherry pick only the warm, fuzzy, love and peace, hippie Jesus parts of the Bible without regard for context and use it to preach an equally biased version of the Bible? It's still in the Bible. It's God's word. If it is possible that two polar opposite extremes can be manifest from accurate readings of the teachings of the same divinely inspired book, it doesn't help its credibility any.
Quote

No...they're not doing what the bible tells them to. Not even close.
Are you serious? Throughout at least half of the Bible, the followers of God (who are under his direct supervision and taking orders directly from him) are constantly harassing, oppressing, attacking, murdering, raping and enslaving all who are not of their belief system. This is their destiny. This behavior is never once remonstrated either by God in the OT or Jesus in the NT. After all, why would Jesus speak against his father's will? How can you say that such behavior is not Christian, when such behavior is often sanctioned by God in the Christian Bible?

Quote
Perhaps you can specify which passages you have in mind, and I'll be happy to give my perspective.
Honest question here. Is there nothing at all, in any of the Bible's contents, that you find repulsive, immoral, or objectionable?
Well, you could start with the passages I posted in my first paragraph. Also:
Numbers 31:15-18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%2031:15-18&version=KJV) In this charming, love and redemption filled passage, God has all of the Midianites slaughtered, men, women and children. Except for the female virgin children, who were taken by God's warriors to be used as sexual objects.

Or Matthew 27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=MAtthew%2027&version=KJV)
An apparently innocent man is tortured and murdered as a human sacrifice to save the souls of mankind from the eternal wrath of God for something that only two people did a really wrong time ago when they had no ability to properly decide right from wrong and had been lied to and threatened by God. This human sacrifice is celebrated weekly by ritual cannibalism of the deceased. Sounds like love to me.

If you find none of this revolting, or rationalize it by saying "it's not evil if God commands it" (in other words, you approve of mass rape and ethnic cleansing, as long as God says its Ok) then I submit that your moral operating system has a glitch somewhere. 

Quote
Again...lets look at some specific stories, events, and discuss them. So long as you don't mind that I can take a while to respond to posts.

If you are honestly suggesting that you are not aware of "any rape, murder, theft, slavery, racism, sexism, ethnic cleansing, human/animal sacrifice, or global genocide, all done on God's command" in the Bible, then I further submit that you have probably not read the Bible, or at the very least, have only read the parts that you find agreeable. Note that in the Midianite massacre (and other plentiful stories of death, rape and conquest), the champions of God break nearly half the commandments by killing, stealing, coveting others land, and coveting other people's women. Things that even God prohibits as evil are suddenly righteous and noble deeds when commanded by him, and are justified as such even by mainstream believers such as yourself.

Feel free to take as long as you like to respond to posts. I realize it can be time consuming. I hope you don't get the impression that I am hostile towards you personally or anything. That is not the case. I am merely being as honest as possible in my assessment of the matters at hand.

good morning. I will certainly respond to this post in depth, but it will be a while. probably not for a few days. Until then..
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #66 on: March 15, 2012, 09:50:34 PM »
Or Matthew 27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=MAtthew%2027&version=KJV)
An apparently innocent man is tortured and murdered as a human sacrifice to save the souls of mankind from the eternal wrath of God for something that only two people did a really wrong time ago when they had no ability to properly decide right from wrong and had been lied to and threatened by God.

If I were Siskel and Ebert, I'd give you four thumbs up for your post.

The part I quoted is both delightfully short and incredibly complete. It sums up my biggest complaint about christianity in one sentence. I just had to give you a karma point for this on, kb. Hope that wasn't a sin  ;D
Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline jtp56

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #67 on: March 15, 2012, 10:30:59 PM »
Or Matthew 27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=MAtthew%2027&version=KJV)
An apparently innocent man is tortured and murdered as a human sacrifice to save the souls of mankind from the eternal wrath of God for something that only two people did a really wrong time ago when they had no ability to properly decide right from wrong and had been lied to and threatened by God.

If I were Siskel and Ebert, I'd give you four thumbs up for your post.

The part I quoted is both delightfully short and incredibly complete. It sums up my biggest complaint about christianity in one sentence. I just had to give you a karma point for this on, kb. Hope that wasn't a sin  ;D

Huh?  Jesus died for you.  If you were the only one who would have believed in Him, He would have gone to the cross.  God acted in faith!  Your question does not make sense in the whole scope of the Bible.  Help me out here, if you believe that when you die you're just dirt, then no explanation is needed; then go to dirt! Quit posting here.  But if you are actually wondering if you continue to live, then ask us about eternity.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #68 on: March 15, 2012, 10:37:33 PM »

To my knowledge none of our congregations go about preaching that God hates homosexuals. The folk at WBC somehow read the bible and come up with a message of hate rather than a messgae of love, and redemption for those that seek it. They seem to be ignorant of the fact that without the death of Jesus on the cross they have the same chance as anyone of living with God - zero.
I know that opens the bible up to much skepticism, but I think its unjustified.

Lev.18:22, Lev.20:13, Rom.1:26-27 (found here http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Lev.18:22,%20Lev.20:13,%20Rom.1:26-27&version=KJV) From the King James version, follow the link to choose whatever version you like.

Please read the above listed Bible passages, and explain how they demonstrate a message of love and redemption. Then consider how the hateful anti gay vitriol spewed by the WBC is justified by these passages. Please keep in mind that Jesus came to uphold these laws. Please keep in mind also that you are operating on the rather bold and unparsimonious assumption that God exists, is Yahweh, and that Jesus Christ was his divine son. Finally, keep in mind that the WBC operates on this very same assumption.

Quote

See above. Picketing funerals of deceased soldiers..it just takes the message of the bible and craps all over it. Jesus went and loved the outcasts of society. He didn't condone sin, but he didn't condemn sinners. He told them to repent. Thw WBC folk seem to just condemn without trying to even explain the message of the cross. And it's not as though they aren't aware of it...their website appears to have links to the Westminster Confession of Faith ( I couldn't confirm as my adobe is stuffed ). They seem to cherry pick bible pasages with no regard for context and use them to preach a horrible message of hate.
How is this any different from the Christians who cherry pick only the warm, fuzzy, love and peace, hippie Jesus parts of the Bible without regard for context and use it to preach an equally biased version of the Bible? It's still in the Bible. It's God's word. If it is possible that two polar opposite extremes can be manifest from accurate readings of the teachings of the same divinely inspired book, it doesn't help its credibility any.
Quote

No...they're not doing what the bible tells them to. Not even close.
Are you serious? Throughout at least half of the Bible, the followers of God (who are under his direct supervision and taking orders directly from him) are constantly harassing, oppressing, attacking, murdering, raping and enslaving all who are not of their belief system. This is their destiny. This behavior is never once remonstrated either by God in the OT or Jesus in the NT. After all, why would Jesus speak against his father's will? How can you say that such behavior is not Christian, when such behavior is often sanctioned by God in the Christian Bible?

Quote
Perhaps you can specify which passages you have in mind, and I'll be happy to give my perspective.
Honest question here. Is there nothing at all, in any of the Bible's contents, that you find repulsive, immoral, or objectionable?
Well, you could start with the passages I posted in my first paragraph. Also:
Numbers 31:15-18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%2031:15-18&version=KJV) In this charming, love and redemption filled passage, God has all of the Midianites slaughtered, men, women and children. Except for the female virgin children, who were taken by God's warriors to be used as sexual objects.

Or Matthew 27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=MAtthew%2027&version=KJV)
An apparently innocent man is tortured and murdered as a human sacrifice to save the souls of mankind from the eternal wrath of God for something that only two people did a really wrong time ago when they had no ability to properly decide right from wrong and had been lied to and threatened by God. This human sacrifice is celebrated weekly by ritual cannibalism of the deceased. Sounds like love to me.

If you find none of this revolting, or rationalize it by saying "it's not evil if God commands it" (in other words, you approve of mass rape and ethnic cleansing, as long as God says its Ok) then I submit that your moral operating system has a glitch somewhere. 

Quote
Again...lets look at some specific stories, events, and discuss them. So long as you don't mind that I can take a while to respond to posts.

If you are honestly suggesting that you are not aware of "any rape, murder, theft, slavery, racism, sexism, ethnic cleansing, human/animal sacrifice, or global genocide, all done on God's command" in the Bible, then I further submit that you have probably not read the Bible, or at the very least, have only read the parts that you find agreeable. Note that in the Midianite massacre (and other plentiful stories of death, rape and conquest), the champions of God break nearly half the commandments by killing, stealing, coveting others land, and coveting other people's women. Things that even God prohibits as evil are suddenly righteous and noble deeds when commanded by him, and are justified as such even by mainstream believers such as yourself.

Feel free to take as long as you like to respond to posts. I realize it can be time consuming. I hope you don't get the impression that I am hostile towards you personally or anything. That is not the case. I am merely being as honest as possible in my assessment of the matters at hand.

good morning. I will certainly respond to this post in depth, but it will be a while. probably not for a few days. Until then..

WTF???  Man is sin!!!!   Fallen!!!    Hello??? What part of the OT don't you understand???  We need a Savior!!!   The OT is a type and shadow of what the NT is.  Read the posts about Abraham and Issac.  Jesus was/is the final sacrifice!  Receive it Brother!!!
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #69 on: March 15, 2012, 11:03:04 PM »
Or Matthew 27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=MAtthew%2027&version=KJV)
An apparently innocent man is tortured and murdered as a human sacrifice to save the souls of mankind from the eternal wrath of God for something that only two people did a really wrong time ago when they had no ability to properly decide right from wrong and had been lied to and threatened by God.

If I were Siskel and Ebert, I'd give you four thumbs up for your post.

The part I quoted is both delightfully short and incredibly complete. It sums up my biggest complaint about christianity in one sentence. I just had to give you a karma point for this on, kb. Hope that wasn't a sin  ;D

Huh?  Jesus died for you.  If you were the only one who would have believed in Him, He would have gone to the cross.  God acted in faith!  Your question does not make sense in the whole scope of the Bible.  Help me out here, if you believe that when you die you're just dirt, then no explanation is needed; then go to dirt! Quit posting here.  But if you are actually wondering if you continue to live, then ask us about eternity.

Nah, I want to go to dirt without being lied to, so I gotta do this. And if you'll notice, this is an atheist site. We don't actually come here to be preached at.

I am not wondering at all. Not even interested. Eternity? How gross would it be to hang around with the big guy for that long. Just imagine Rick Santorum with a bigger ass. Yuck.

If there was a jesus, he died for somebody else's sins, because I wasn't born yet. And most of my sinning now involves cussing a blue streak at proselytizers who come to my door. If they'd just go away, I'd be a frickin' saint.

If you think for one second you have the capacity to "cure" someone who has been an atheist a lot longer than the thirty three years your alleged and precious jesus lived, have at it. But all you have to shoot is blanks and I ain't afraid of the noise.


Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline jtp56

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #70 on: March 15, 2012, 11:24:44 PM »
Whoa!  Relax!  I can't cure anyone!  And I'm not trying to preach (although I may come across that way).  However, if you look at the fact that Jesus did live (you need to read the book "The case for Christ" which examined the historical evidence proving Jesus lived, and that His life is more factual and conclusive than the case for Plato.  I know, I know, you know Plato lived!  It's just that the historical texts are more conclusive/factual for the life of Jesus than Plato, that it is fact).  I know facts are stubborn things, but that's the way it is.  So it boils down to: do you believe that Jesus claimed who He said He was is true?  Or was He a lunatic? or a liar?  So which is it?  Lunatic, Liar, or who He said He was?  Or do you go against facts that He never existed?
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline MadBunny

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #71 on: March 15, 2012, 11:33:40 PM »
I'm gonna go ahead and book mark this.

Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #72 on: March 15, 2012, 11:38:45 PM »
By the way, regarding having a go at Islam, the Bible is very clear about false prophets!  Study the same historical (non-Biblical) texts about Plato, Jesus, Etc.; and Mohammed.  Don't take the Bibles word for it (although it comes to the same conclusion).  Unfortunately, we have such a westernized view of Islam, that we don't/can't understand the impact/importance of the immensity of it.  It can only come from an understanding of the book of Revelation when it talks about the false prophet.......
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #73 on: March 15, 2012, 11:43:17 PM »
I should of added that there are missionaries all throughout the Middle East.  It is very difficult being a Christan in the Middle East.  In the west we just get mocked, in the Middle East they get killed.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline MadBunny

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #74 on: March 16, 2012, 12:12:36 AM »
I should of added that there are missionaries all throughout the Middle East.  It is very difficult being a Christan in the Middle East.  In the west we just get mocked, in the Middle East they get killed.

So what?
They're just following their text more accurately than Christians are.
The bible and the Quran are relatively analogous where it comes to dealing with 'non-believers' and 'heretics'.  For that matter, they're pretty similar in a lot of ways.

Oddly, the Quran has a slightly higher standard of women's rights than the Christian bible.
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline Astreja

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #75 on: March 16, 2012, 01:14:46 AM »
Huh?  Jesus died for you.

I reject this unequivocally.  I do not consent to anyone dying for Me.

Quote
But if you are actually wondering if you continue to live, then ask us about eternity.

Been there, have you?  Have empirical evidence for eternal life?  I.  Think.  Not.
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Offline Fiji

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #76 on: March 16, 2012, 04:14:09 AM »
By the way, regarding having a go at Islam, the Bible is very clear about false prophets!  Study the same historical (non-Biblical) texts about Plato, Jesus, Etc.; and Mohammed.  Don't take the Bibles word for it (although it comes to the same conclusion).  Unfortunately, we have such a westernized view of Islam, that we don't/can't understand the impact/importance of the immensity of it.  It can only come from an understanding of the book of Revelation when it talks about the false prophet.......

And the quran is very clear about the fact that Jesus was not the son of god/allah. It says so multiple times. Jesus is just a god-seaker like Abraham or Moses.
The quran even explains why allah first revealed texts saying that Jesus was his son and then denied it in later texts. Allah leads you astray if he feels like it. Who are you to contradict him?
So there you have it, quran is wrong according to the bible; bible is wrong according to the quran. And the historical texts? They mention Jesus exactly once and that's probably a forgery added 12 centuries later ... so they're both wrong in the end.
Science: I'll believe it when I see it
Faith: I'll see it when I believe it

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Offline Historicity

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #77 on: March 16, 2012, 05:40:28 AM »
And the historical texts? They mention Jesus exactly once and that's probably a forgery added 12 centuries later ... so they're both wrong in the end.

I assume you mean the passage in Josephus' History of the Jews.  The first crossreference to that passage is 3 centuries later.  Also, people who had read Josephus who would have been inclined to cite it, did not.

Or do you mean the Slavonic Additions to Josephus which passages appeared much later?




Offline Fiji

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #78 on: March 16, 2012, 06:04:06 AM »
And the historical texts? They mention Jesus exactly once and that's probably a forgery added 12 centuries later ... so they're both wrong in the end.

I assume you mean the passage in Josephus' History of the Jews.  The first crossreference to that passage is 3 centuries later.  Also, people who had read Josephus who would have been inclined to cite it, did not.

Or do you mean the Slavonic Additions to Josephus which passages appeared much later?

Those latter ones ... wasn't that 13th century? I used to have a memory, you know ... aeons ago.
Science: I'll believe it when I see it
Faith: I'll see it when I believe it

Schrodinger's thunderdome! One cat enters and one MIGHT leave!

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Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #79 on: March 16, 2012, 08:07:00 AM »

WTF???  Man is sin!!!!   Fallen!!!    Hello??? What part of the OT don't you understand???  We need a Savior!!!   The OT is a type and shadow of what the NT is.  Read the posts about Abraham and Issac.  Jesus was/is the final sacrifice!  Receive it Brother!!!

This may be news to you, but it is generally considered proper forum etiquette to actually give a meaningful response to things that people post, in a way that directly addresses or refutes what the poster has said. You have failed miserably with this post.
Whoa!  Relax!  I can't cure anyone!
Then I submit that your faith is a lie. Jesus clearly said that his followers would do greater works than even he did and that they would merely lay hands on the sick, and they would recover (Mark 16:17-18).  Thus, considering that Jesus was alleged to have done healing miracles, you should be capable of truly awesome healing powers. Again, this is according to Jesus. Are you calling Jesus a liar?
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And I'm not trying to preach   (although I may come across that way).
  Well, whatever you are trying to do, you are preaching.
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  However, if you look at the fact that Jesus did live (you need to read the book "The case for Christ" which examined the historical evidence proving Jesus lived, and that His life is more factual and conclusive than the case for Plato. 
I'm willing to grant that a person named Jesus lived about 2,000 years ago. In fact, the Bible mentions two people named Jesus: Jesus Christ, and Jesus Barabas. Conveniently, most Bibles nowadays omit the first name of Barabas, whose last name means "son of the father". So, there were at least two "rebellious Jesuses" walking around at this time, both of whom could be considered the "son of the father". Being able to demonstrate that a person named Jesus lived at such a time doesn't do much for you case, as it gives me no reason at all to believe that his paternity was divine.
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I know, I know, you know Plato lived!  It's just that the historical texts are more conclusive/factual for the life of Jesus than Plato, that it is fact).
I'm curious, how many 1st century, original, eyewitness documents are cited as reference in this book? I'm guessing zero. 
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I know facts are stubborn things, but that's the way it is.
Not nearly as stubborn as those who dismiss reality for fantasy. 
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So it boils down to: do you believe that Jesus claimed who He said He was is true?
Believing in it wouldn't make it true. It would make the believer delusional.
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  Or was He a lunatic? or a liar? 
Quite obviously, both.
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So which is it?  Lunatic, Liar, or who He said He was?  Or do you go against facts that He never existed?
Lots of people say that they are the son of God. Ironically, those people nowadays are, in fact, considered insane. Imagine that. It's absolutely amazing to me that you can take two highly probable explanations (liar or lunatic) and dismiss them in favor of the arrogant belief that he died for you. You're a real intellectual heavy weight, aren't you? By the way, you have already de facto admitted that Jesus was a liar, since you do not possess the super healing powers that he promised you will have. If Jesus said his followers (you) would have super healing powers, and his followers (again, you) do not possess any such super healing powers, then by definition Jesus is a liar. That's not the only thing he lied about either. His second coming did not occur in the lifetime of those whom he spoke to (again, as Jesus promised he would). One need only to look at the Bible to determine that Jesus and God are both liars.

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By the way, regarding having a go at Islam, the Bible is very clear about false prophets!
Indeed it is. The Bible very clearly states that false prophets are to be put to death. How many false prophets have you killed for Jesus today? If you really believed in the Bible and its truth and inerrancy, you would be a false prophet bounty hunter. I think it is reasonable for me to assume that you don't do this. If you don't, you are NOT doing what your God has commanded you to do. Enjoy the flames, buddy, they're eternal!
Quote
Study the same historical (non-Biblical) texts about Plato, Jesus, Etc.; and Mohammed.  Don't take the Bibles word for it (although it comes to the same conclusion).  Unfortunately, we have such a westernized view of Islam, that we don't/can't understand the impact/importance of the immensity of it.  It can only come from an understanding of the book of Revelation when it talks about the false prophet....... 
Fortunately for me, it is not necessary to do this. I've have already conceded that it was possible that a man named Jesus Christ lived in the middle east 2,000 years ago. I'm not arguing that. I think it would be very difficult for any historical work to demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that the same Jesus Christ was the son of god, and not just any god, but Yahweh. Note that there is nothing in the Bible that would preclude the existence of other gods. In fact, particularly in the OT, it is clear that there are in fact many other gods, but since Yahweh is jealous (why should an all powerful being ever have reason to be jealous??!?!) he commands that anyone who doesn't follow him specifically should be put to death.
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I should of
should have
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added that there are missionaries all throughout the Middle East.
Yep, convincing mostly destitute and miserable people that if they don't accept Jesus, their misery will continue for all eternity. What a valuable service. 
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It is very difficult being a Christan in the Middle East.
Why? Doesn't God grant his followers some kind of special protection? And what does death matter do a Christian, if they are fallen and sinful and have nothing to look forward to in this life, but everything to look forward to in death?
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In the west we just get mocked,
  And rightly so. Just as you would be mocked if you believed that by dying a glorious death in battle, you will be snatched up by the Valkyries and lead straight to the Golden Hall of Valhalla. 
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in the Middle East they get killed.
Yes, by people who worship the same god but in a different way, and have just as righteous of a sense of belief and self entitlement as the missionaries. Note, if missionaries didn't go to the middle east, they wouldn't be killed in the middle east. But of course, it is absurd for me to expect a Christian to bear any sort of personal responsibility or accountability for their own choices and actions. That was wiped out with your human sacrifice. Note also that the middle east is the "Holy Land", a land that has seen nothing but violence, racism, and ethnic cleansing for thousands of years, done by God's followers on all sides and always justified loudly by these followers through their Holy Books (which do, in fact, give blanket approval to such actions). What a holy place, indeed.
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Huh?  Jesus died for you.
Prove it.
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If you were the only one who would have believed in Him, He would have gone to the cross.
Then he's a dumbass.
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  God acted in faith!
This is quite possibly the most absurd thing you have said yet. An all powerful, all knowing entity, who has had our destinies determined since even before we were born (having trouble finding the verse that says this, but it's definitely there, and being an expert on the matter, you should already know this) could not possibly ever have any reason for faith. You can't have God be both puppet master and puppet.
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  Your question does not make sense in the whole scope of the Bible.  Help me out here,
This post of yours was actually in reply to ParkingPlaces, and there was no question asked of you. Perhaps you are hallucinating? 
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if you believe that when you die you're just dirt, then no explanation is needed; then go to dirt!
Funny, I thought that Christians also thought that we returned to dirt (or dust) upon death. Oddly enough also, there is no evidence to the contrary.
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Quit posting here.
And exactly who are you addressing here? Who the hell are you to tell Atheists to stop posting Atheistic ideas on an Atheist forum? There's that arrogant sense of self entitlement and willingness to dominate other people that is such a common trait among believers. This is an atheist forum. If you don't like what is being said, no one's making you come here, you can feel free to leave if you like. Perhaps you could actually do God's work by volunteering to be a missionary in the Middle East. Since death, to a believer, means great rewards, you should have absolutely no fear of doing so. Any fear or reticence on your part to do this is an indication that perhaps you really don't believe in this.
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But if you are actually wondering if you continue to live, then ask us about eternity.
Who's "us"? Do you have dissociative identity disorder or something? If by "us" you mean "believers" then asking believers is no use, since they all have a different idea of how that eternity thing goes down. Frankly though, I'm simply not stupid enough to actually believe that in spite of being dead I can still be alive. That is a fool's hope.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #80 on: March 16, 2012, 08:23:05 AM »
I'm definitely no scholar, although I have certainly read Matthew, and suggest you might look through it again. How does Mathew start, for instance? How does it finish?


[21] And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
[2] And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Consistent with Matthew, Jesus is supposed to save HIS PEOPLE from their sins. But WTF does this mean?

[3] And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.
[4] And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
[5] For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
[6] But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
[7] And he arose, and departed to his house.


Apparently, when you have had your sins removed, you are healed physically.

It's difficult for us to figure what the early followers thought Jesus was doing. They seem to have thought that Jesus was about to bring the end of the world, and his believers, who followed the new Jewish law would be healed, and pass into a resurrection. At the end of Matthew, Jesus is still alive. There is a sort of hysteria on the end of Mark:

[16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
[17] And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
[18] They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


Can you drink any deadly thing? Sound like you? Would you run from a King Brown snake?

In order to "understand" what is meant by 'save the people from their sins', you need extra books, that were written by later people, who were selling a new theory, to explain why the last one didn't work.

It's a bit like how the story of Lord of The Rings makes people wonder if Frodo had a sexual relationship with Sam. Why did Frodo waste 8 months before going? Why did Gandalf only show up occasionally, and why did they not use the large eagles to fly the ring into the volcano?

Well, what if we suddenly discovered a new book, which was written by Tolkein's mother, explaining how Frodo had a sexual relationship with Sam, and several others, prior to setting out to Mordor, and Gandalf was busy battling with alcoholism, and the reason he could not use eagles to fly the ring to Mordor, was that Eagles would have been shot down, over the fairy in in Drummel.

The new book would explain a lot, but it would be written by Tolkein's mother. Does that count? Christians say YES.

Given that Mark 16:18 is not true for you, then how seriously can you take other single verses?


EDIT: I imagine that what Matthew is saying, is that having seen evidence of the father through Jesus, you are now so firm in your faith of God and Jewish law, that you are greater than John the Baptist (11:11), and can now follow all the Jewish laws to perfection (5:19-20). At this point, the life of God flows so awesomely through your veins that you can now heal the sick. Matthew warns against Paul (24:11). This is not a prophecy, because it's written with knowledge of Paul. Conversely, Luke does not warn you against false prophets.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 09:06:15 AM by Add Homonym »
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Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #81 on: March 16, 2012, 08:41:09 AM »
If I were Siskel and Ebert, I'd give you four thumbs up for your post.

The part I quoted is both delightfully short and incredibly complete. It sums up my biggest complaint about christianity in one sentence. I just had to give you a karma point for this on, kb. Hope that wasn't a sin  ;D

Thanks! Well, I don't recall the Bible mentioning that Karma is a sin, so I guess that means its not. Of course, the Bible doesn't say that slavery or rape are sins either.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #82 on: March 16, 2012, 09:30:17 AM »
Quote from: kaziglu bey
This is quite possibly the most absurd thing you have said yet. An all powerful, all knowing entity, who has had our destinies determined since even before we were born (having trouble finding the verse that says this, but it's definitely there, and being an expert on the matter, you should already know this) 

Fortunately, while searching for a different topic, I have in fact found verses that support the idea that God has predestined us all, before he even created the world, and that he alone chooses who will follow him and receive eternal reward (note: this would preclude any free will). Included are both broad (applying to everyone) and more narrow (applying to specific people) examples of God giving us no choice in the matter.
Acts 13:48 "And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

Rom.8:29-30 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Rom.9:11-22 "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) .... For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction."

Eph.1:4-5 "He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."

2 Th.2:11-12 "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned."

2 Tim.1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."

Jude 1:4 "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation."

So yeah, according to these passages, from the inerrant, infallible and non contradictory word of God, God doesn't need faith that people will follow him. He has already determined who will and who won't and punishes eternally those whom he personally chose for eternal suffering. No free will, no morality, no choice, nothing good or loving about this at all. God creates people specifically for the purpose of torturing them for all eternity. Again, this is what you believe, since you believe in the Bible and it's God. It's not a great leap to suggest that if a person were to bring children into the world for the explicit purpose of torturing and killing, you would be perfectly fine with that, since that is what God does. This is what you sick, twisted people call love. Now, if you were to rightfully suggest that a parent who did such a thing would be a horrible, inhuman monster, then you have to concede that such a description would be just as accurate when applied to a celestial dictator. If you suggest that no matter what God commands, it is just and righteous, then you have the blood and virginity of millions of innocent people on your hands. Have fun living with that. Myself, I believe that rape, torture, slavery and ethnic cleansing are wrong no matter who commands it. Yet somehow, without God, I am not supposed to be able to make moral decisions. It seems quite clear to me that the immoral ones are those who happily justify truly evil and despicable acts, just because Big Brother did it. It amazes me that people would suggest that absolute morality can only come from God, since God seems to be able to do things that even he (sometimes) considers immoral. It's totally arbitrary as to what kind of mood Yahweh is in that day. Again, this is the quality of a sadistic dictator, not a benevolent, kind and loving individual.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline gonegolfing

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #83 on: March 16, 2012, 09:45:18 AM »
<snip>

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So yeah, according to these passages, from the inerrant, infallible and non contradictory word of God, God doesn't need faith that people will follow him. He has already determined who will and who won't and punishes eternally those whom he personally chose for eternal suffering. No free will, no morality, no choice, nothing good or loving about this at all. God creates people specifically for the purpose of torturing them for all eternity. Again, this is what you believe, since you believe in the Bible and it's God. It's not a great leap to suggest that if a person were to bring children into the world for the explicit purpose of torturing and killing, you would be perfectly fine with that, since that is what God does. This is what you sick, twisted people call love. Now, if you were to rightfully suggest that a parent who did such a thing would be a horrible, inhuman monster, then you have to concede that such a description would be just as accurate when applied to a celestial dictator. If you suggest that no matter what God commands, it is just and righteous, then you have the blood and virginity of millions of innocent people on your hands. Have fun living with that. Myself, I believe that rape, torture, slavery and ethnic cleansing are wrong no matter who commands it. Yet somehow, without God, I am not supposed to be able to make moral decisions. It seems quite clear to me that the immoral ones are those who happily justify truly evil and despicable acts, just because Big Brother did it. It amazes me that people would suggest that absolute morality can only come from God, since God seems to be able to do things that even he (sometimes) considers immoral. It's totally arbitrary as to what kind of mood Yahweh is in that day. Again, this is the quality of a sadistic dictator, not a benevolent, kind and loving individual.

Thanks for posting those passages KB, and also your thoughts above.

They served as a powerful reminder to me personally that the bible is truly a man made and humanly inspired book of fiction, that is reflective of our innate propensity to delusional thinking and wicked thoughts and behaviours.

Cheers mate.
"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism"....Penn Jillette.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #84 on: March 16, 2012, 10:03:07 AM »
Whoa!  Relax!  I can't cure anyone!  And I'm not trying to preach (although I may come across that way).  However, if you look at the fact that Jesus did live (you need to read the book "The case for Christ" which examined the historical evidence proving Jesus lived, and that His life is more factual and conclusive than the case for Plato.  I know, I know, you know Plato lived!  It's just that the historical texts are more conclusive/factual for the life of Jesus than Plato, that it is fact).  I know facts are stubborn things, but that's the way it is.  So it boils down to: do you believe that Jesus claimed who He said He was is true?  Or was He a lunatic? or a liar?  So which is it?  Lunatic, Liar, or who He said He was?  Or do you go against facts that He never existed?

You missed one:  Legend.    Strobel is an idiot.  No evidence for any of the essential events in teh bible. Not one scrap.    And dear, no one is claiming that Plato was a magical being.  Fail.   

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By the way, regarding having a go at Islam, the Bible is very clear about false prophets!
  why yes it does.  And hmmm, "Paul" certainly fits the bill.  Darn.
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Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #85 on: March 16, 2012, 10:35:41 AM »
Thanks for posting those passages KB, and also your thoughts above.

They served as a powerful reminder to me personally that the bible is truly a man made and humanly inspired book of fiction, that is reflective of our innate propensity to delusional thinking and wicked thoughts and behaviours.

Cheers mate.

You are most welcome. Thank you for your thoughts as well.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Have a go at Islam already
« Reply #86 on: March 19, 2012, 06:17:37 PM »

To my knowledge none of our congregations go about preaching that God hates homosexuals. The folk at WBC somehow read the bible and come up with a message of hate rather than a messgae of love, and redemption for those that seek it. They seem to be ignorant of the fact that without the death of Jesus on the cross they have the same chance as anyone of living with God - zero.
I know that opens the bible up to much skepticism, but I think its unjustified.

Lev.18:22, Lev.20:13, Rom.1:26-27 (found here http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Lev.18:22,%20Lev.20:13,%20Rom.1:26-27&version=KJV) From the King James version, follow the link to choose whatever version you like.

Please read the above listed Bible passages, and explain how they demonstrate a message of love and redemption. Then consider how the hateful anti gay vitriol spewed by the WBC is justified by these passages. Please keep in mind that Jesus came to uphold these laws. Please keep in mind also that you are operating on the rather bold and unparsimonious assumption that God exists, is Yahweh, and that Jesus Christ was his divine son. Finally, keep in mind that the WBC operates on this very same assumption.

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See above. Picketing funerals of deceased soldiers..it just takes the message of the bible and craps all over it. Jesus went and loved the outcasts of society. He didn't condone sin, but he didn't condemn sinners. He told them to repent. Thw WBC folk seem to just condemn without trying to even explain the message of the cross. And it's not as though they aren't aware of it...their website appears to have links to the Westminster Confession of Faith ( I couldn't confirm as my adobe is stuffed ). They seem to cherry pick bible pasages with no regard for context and use them to preach a horrible message of hate.
How is this any different from the Christians who cherry pick only the warm, fuzzy, love and peace, hippie Jesus parts of the Bible without regard for context and use it to preach an equally biased version of the Bible? It's still in the Bible. It's God's word. If it is possible that two polar opposite extremes can be manifest from accurate readings of the teachings of the same divinely inspired book, it doesn't help its credibility any.
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No...they're not doing what the bible tells them to. Not even close.
Are you serious? Throughout at least half of the Bible, the followers of God (who are under his direct supervision and taking orders directly from him) are constantly harassing, oppressing, attacking, murdering, raping and enslaving all who are not of their belief system. This is their destiny. This behavior is never once remonstrated either by God in the OT or Jesus in the NT. After all, why would Jesus speak against his father's will? How can you say that such behavior is not Christian, when such behavior is often sanctioned by God in the Christian Bible?

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Perhaps you can specify which passages you have in mind, and I'll be happy to give my perspective.
Honest question here. Is there nothing at all, in any of the Bible's contents, that you find repulsive, immoral, or objectionable?
Well, you could start with the passages I posted in my first paragraph. Also:
Numbers 31:15-18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%2031:15-18&version=KJV) In this charming, love and redemption filled passage, God has all of the Midianites slaughtered, men, women and children. Except for the female virgin children, who were taken by God's warriors to be used as sexual objects.

Or Matthew 27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=MAtthew%2027&version=KJV)
An apparently innocent man is tortured and murdered as a human sacrifice to save the souls of mankind from the eternal wrath of God for something that only two people did a really wrong time ago when they had no ability to properly decide right from wrong and had been lied to and threatened by God. This human sacrifice is celebrated weekly by ritual cannibalism of the deceased. Sounds like love to me.

If you find none of this revolting, or rationalize it by saying "it's not evil if God commands it" (in other words, you approve of mass rape and ethnic cleansing, as long as God says its Ok) then I submit that your moral operating system has a glitch somewhere. 

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Again...lets look at some specific stories, events, and discuss them. So long as you don't mind that I can take a while to respond to posts.

If you are honestly suggesting that you are not aware of "any rape, murder, theft, slavery, racism, sexism, ethnic cleansing, human/animal sacrifice, or global genocide, all done on God's command" in the Bible, then I further submit that you have probably not read the Bible, or at the very least, have only read the parts that you find agreeable. Note that in the Midianite massacre (and other plentiful stories of death, rape and conquest), the champions of God break nearly half the commandments by killing, stealing, coveting others land, and coveting other people's women. Things that even God prohibits as evil are suddenly righteous and noble deeds when commanded by him, and are justified as such even by mainstream believers such as yourself.

Feel free to take as long as you like to respond to posts. I realize it can be time consuming. I hope you don't get the impression that I am hostile towards you personally or anything. That is not the case. I am merely being as honest as possible in my assessment of the matters at hand.

good morning. I will certainly respond to this post in depth, but it will be a while. probably not for a few days. Until then..

Hi KB

I need to apologise - I don't think I have the time and energy to address your post in depth as I had promised.

I know many skeptics and atheists cannot reconcile OT God with love, and I can certainly see why. I certainly struggle with understanding and accepting many aspects of the bible.

I assume you've read Christian apologist responses to these difficult passages, and I doubt I'd provide anything more compelling than their thoughts and suggestions.

Sorry KB
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.