Have a go at Islam already

[magicmiles]

You don't need brilliant observational skills to notice that Christianity cops the brunt of scorn around here. Silly Christians doing this, doing that....one atheist asking a set up question and another gleefully stepping up to deliver the slam dunk.

Given you don't believe in anydeity, why be so focused on Christianity? Why not poke some fun at Islam and Mohammad? And, you know...raise awareness of the threat to society it poses. Aren't you concerned at the growing influence of Muslims? Was it Christians who flew into your towers?

What do you reckon?

[jaimehlers]

There aren't an awful lot of Muslims who visit the forums.  If a Muslim does visit, I imagine that they'll undergo the same thing that the Christians who visit do.

As for your statements, the problem is that organized religion, whether Christianity, Islam, or whatever, makes it possible, even probable in some cases, for someone to commit a truly vile act because they believe it's what their god wants of them.

[Willie]

Most here are from predominantly christian countries, especially the United States. So the religion that is trying to push itself into our public school science curriculum, our politics, and our legal system, is Christianity, not Islam or any other. And on a more personal level, Christianity is also the religion that most of us have to deal with most often from friends, family, bosses, teachers, co-workers, etc. It also happens to be by far the most common religion of the theists that visit here to debate with us. There have been a few Muslim visitors in the couple of years that I've been here. They were not cut any special slack.

[magicmiles]

Thanks for your input.

Somehow though I think if no Christians visited the site either, it would still be Christianity that copped the most acid tongue treatment.

I've always disgareed with the suggestion that organised religion is bad just because some people use it as an excuse to do evil, twisted things. If you extend that line of thinking there are all sorts of things that you could start to crusade against.

[pingnak]

It's probably true that this site 'trolls' the Christians more directly. 

I'm sure we could say something provocative about Islam in particular, but as has been pointed out, the ones we're having the most direct problems with are Christianists wanting to turn our republic into a theocracy, not Islamists who already made their own bed and are stuck sleeping in it.

As fun as talking about Islamic people stoning non-theistic people in Islamic countries can be, we're more concerned about Christians getting to a point where they feel that they can start stoning and burning us alive, here.

[jaimehlers]

The problem isn't that some people use it to do evil.  The problem is that its organized nature means that if the authorities at the top declare that it's right and just to do evil, then there are no significant internal checks to prevent that from filtering all the way down.  Note that I said internal checks, meaning within the organization.  It may well be that some people will disagree with that declaration, but they will do so because of factors which fall outside of the religious organization.

This is true of any organization, no matter its basis, which lacks internal checks against that kind of top-down authority.

[magicmiles]

Hmm, plenty of internal checks in the Australian Presybterian Church.

I wonder if opinions are too influenced by bona-fide nutjobs like the folk at Westboro Baptist?

[pingnak]

Well, you can't stop THERE.

There are lots of churches (especially in North America) that are full of scary, batshit crazy people, who believe in batshit crazy things. 

The kind that Rick Santorum, and the rest of the Republican candidates are trying so hard to woo... with woo.  You know, how the evil Obama government (Obama went to a batshit crazy church, just as nuts as Palin's, too) is out to kill religion.

Do we really need to post a list?  The white separatists, nazis, KKK, etc. just pop onto the top of my head.  And they can seem downright SANE compared to where it goes from there.

Ever watch 'Jesus Camp'?  That's fucking milquetoast.
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/jesus-camp/

[magicmiles]

You're preaching to the choir man. You Americans are all over the place like a wild womans whiskers.

[One Above All]

All in good time, magicmiles.

[freakygin]

Given you don't believe in anydeity, why be so focused on Christianity? Why not poke some fun at Islam and Mohammad? And, you know...raise awareness of the threat to society it poses. Aren't you concerned at the growing influence of Muslims?

Muslim didn't disturb my life as much as christian.
My bestfriend is a muslim, he knew that i'm an atheist, and he never tried to "save" me.
We insult each other belief and then laugh together.
I like them better.

[hickdive]

If you've watched the video, 'Why Wont God Heal Amputees', you'll know that it is primarily aimed at an American, christian audience.

That usually means that the theists that drop by tend to be American christians. That means they tend to present American christian arguments for posters here to refute (or 'have a go at').

That doesn't mean that muslims get any more of a free ride, it just means they are a rare species of visitor here.

If you stick around long enough this time you might get to see one of these rare birds have their arguments reduced to fragments in exactly the same way as all flavours of christian do.

If you don't have time for that why not go back and find some of afadly's posts and threads? You'll see him defeated time and again.

If you don't even have time for that then why not simply ask yourself why you, like us, reject islam?

[grant]

all over the place like a wild womans whiskers.

Did you just make that up? I certainly haven't heard it before.

It should read "all over the place like a mad woman's shit". That one, I've heard hundreds of times.

[Seppuku]

There aren't an awful lot of Muslims who visit the forums.  If a Muslim does visit, I imagine that they'll undergo the same thing that the Christians who visit do.

The certainly do!

But most of us here live in Christian societies and are a lot more familiar with Christianity and may even have previously been Christian, Islam isn't ignored and there have been posts about it, but Christianity is the main focus because it's the most relevant to many of our lives. And as said, the vast majority of our religious posters are Christian.

And oh God...I remember Afadly, but then we did argue a lot. He got more of a beating than most of our Christian members because of his sheer willful ignorance and persistence. Didn't he think it was okay to for Muslims to rape non-Muslims? Or was that somebody else? I know he had some very ignorant views, hence he got a tougher beating.

[pianodwarf]

Given you don't believe in anydeity, why be so focused on Christianity? Why not poke some fun at Islam and Mohammad?

In my case, at least, two reasons:

1)  I am far more familiar with Christianity than I am with Islam.

2)  In the country that I live in (the United States), it is not the Muslims who:
   a.  Are in the 75-80% majority;
   b.  Have millions upon millions of dollars at their disposal; and
   c.  Are working like dogs to turn our nation into a theocracy and largely succeeding at it.

[kaziglu bey]

Hmm, plenty of internal checks in the Australian Presybterian Church.

I wonder if opinions are too influenced by bona-fide nutjobs like the folk at Westboro Baptist?

I have to wonder, and I am not trying to be an asshole, but what exactly makes the Westboro Baptist church "bona-fide nutjobs" as opposed to the Australian Presbyterian Church? What objection can one believer have to another, if both base their beliefs off of the same scriptures? In what way has the Westboro Baptist church behaved in a way that is NOT supported by the Bible? I agree that they are nutjobs, but in all honesty, I don't know how a believer can protest. If your objection is that they make other believers look bad, I would say that is actually unfair to them, since they are just doing what their Bible tells them to. It's the book itself that contains many of the hateful proclamations spewed by WBC. Unless you are willing to admit that the parts of the Bible which would lend support to their statements are in fact wrong, I'm not sure where you have any room to object. If you are in fact willing to reject parts of the Bible that you feel are wrong, then I have to ask, why would you accept any of it? On what basis can a believer determine which parts of the word of God are not true?

This is why we are so often inclined to argue against Christianity (along with what other WWGHA members have posted). With so many versions, and interpretations of, the Bible, and so many religious denominations, all disagreeing with each other on some way, all convinced that those who don't believe the way they do will go to hell, which is the ONLY ONE that is actually right? How would we know? Religious folk (especially here in the US) are trying to force their way in politics and education (as if there isn't sufficient history to show that religion ruins both) all done by a group of people who are ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN in spite of no evidence. This sort of pious self delusion is dangerous, and is frequently used by the powerful to control the weak. It is a disgusting system of shame, guilt, fear, and manipulation that is used to terrorize children into indoctrination through intimidation and threat of eternal torture. If you're NOT against such a thing, I honestly don't know what's wrong with you. Unless your Bible does not include any rape, murder, theft, slavery, racism, sexism, ethnic cleansing, human/animal sacrifice, or global genocide, all done on God's command, I'm not sure you really have any room to criticize the WBC. You believe in the same wicked book and worship the same heartless God they do.

[Nick]

Most of us came from a Christian background and have to live/work with silly Christians all around us...even influencing our politics and policies.  Therefore, it is logical that you (Christians) get the focus of our thoughts.  Several Muslims have been here off and on.  They don't seem to stay long and don't vary from the scrip much.  Kind of like Mormons.

[sun_king]

I detect the initial symptoms of Fatwa Envy (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fatwa_envy)

Now here is a question for you. Why don't you have a dig at Islam? They are just one god away from being total atheists.

[Quesi]

I’ll take a stab at it.

I live in a community with a significant Muslim population, and a significant Christian population and a solid Jewish community and a growing Buddhist community. 

Most of the Christians and Muslims who I know in my neighborhood are people busy with their lives.  They work and raise their families and support their kids in school.  They lobby our (openly gay) City Council member for more green space and the expansion of a local playground for our kids.  They celebrate their holidays with extended family.  Some Christians eat the body of Christ on a weekly basis, while others wave their arms in the air and clap their hands and sing during their times of worship.  Some Muslims I know feel that they need to pray at very specific times of the day, while others feel that if they get their five prayers in, the specifics times don’t matter.  And those with busy schedules sometimes double up on prayers.  I live in a progressive community, so I don’t really know many fundamentalist Christians who want to assassinate doctors who practice abortion, and I don’t know any Muslims who want to punish the infidels.  I don’t personally know any Westboro Baptist types, and I don’t know any Al Qaida types. 

I don’t really see a lot of difference in the communities that I know.  There is so much diversity within both Christianity and Islam, that any stereotype of either group would represent only a small portion of adherents.   But I see a lot of overlap in terms of practice.  I mean, they both draw from the same set of texts, and the same set of stories.  And I generally don’t begrudge anyone their festivals and traditions. 

But I have to admit that Eid al-Adha makes me squeamish on multiple levels.  First of all, there are a bunch of Halal meat stores in my neighborhood, and there are few things that I enjoy less than watching men walking down the sidewalk carrying dead goats (with faces) over their shoulders to bring home for the family feasts.  I don’t eat meat, but I admit I am not nearly as offended by watching Thanksgiving shoppers buying wrapped up butterball turkeys. 

But it is not just the dead goats.  It is the reason for the celebration. 

So Abraham was told by God to go and kill his son. (Christians and Muslims differ on which son it was.  Muslims believe it was the son of Hagar, while Christians believe it was the son of Sara.  But other than that, it is the same story.)  So Abraham, who wanted kids so much, and supposedly loved them greatly, follows God’s instructions, and gets all set to sacrifice one of his sons.  Then, as we all know, at the last minute, God, in his great mercy, lets him off the hook and lets him kill a goat instead. 

Christians and Muslims and Jews all incorporate this story into their faith, but for some reason Jews and Muslims have special holidays around it. 

Most Christians cherry pick the Bible, and don’t make as big a deal out of the story as their other Abrahamic counterparts.  As a matter of fact, it seems to me that even most Christians get kind of squeamish about the story, and don’t emphasize it a lot.   But for Muslims, it is the biggest example of God’s mercy, and one of the biggest holidays of the year. 

Off to work.  Wont’ get to respond to anything here until this evening.  So if you address me and I don’t respond, please don’t be offended. 

[Nodak]

Mm,
Can you explain why you think Muslim irrational thought is more dangerous than Christianity?

Perhaps you are confusing secular societies vs nonsecular so cities.....not a difference in holy books as a source of danger

[Add Homonym]

Muslims have 7 levels of heaven, so you can be sure you will get to the lowest one, if you are nice to orphans.

Christianity doesn't know its tits from its arse.

[Turbo SS]

There!  happy?

[Fiji]

Was it Christians who flew into your towers?

* Fiji looks at the Atomium, blinks a few time, mutters "planes into the Atomium? When did that happen? ... might improve the damn thing, actually, turn it into a sort of performance art version of a Panamarenko."

[magicmiles]

Some great responses here, thanks. I was a touch flippant in my OP, looking back at it. Anyway, I hope to respond to some of these responses over the coming weekend.

[kin hell]

mm


All  irrational faith based systems have no rational check against any claims made by their supposed "authority".

Islam does get slammed here when it appears, but just coincidentally, the overwhelmingly obvious  geographical and cultural basis for faith (so necessarily denied by theists in classic cognitive dissonance) that virtually guarantees a beautifully obvious correlation between where you are born and what faith you are likely to believe, also comes into play in that few posters are from countries that breed islamics.

But islamic theists' willingness to subjugate their intellectual honesty for blind faith is no less than the xian breeder country's spawn.
Of course we just don't get to engage with them as often

But regarding all irrational faith based systems lack of reality checks....
Which theist can absolutely say the man/woman who murders their family kids friends neighbours etc  "because god commanded them to" is wrong?

I bet it's a toss up between xians and islamics as to who has the least "authoritative source and guidelines"

and it is not good enough to say one can use ones own judgement to decide (or deride) nor is it a workable solution to say one can use the "what would jesus do" filter

because jesus decided to come again here, and anyone chosing to come to save the world via Kingaroy Qld is an idiot and definitely not a saviour.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1387903/John-Miller-Mary-Suzanne-Luck-claim-Jesus-Mary-Magdalene.html

He is the charismatic preacher who claims to be Jesus Christ returned to Earth.
She, meanwhile, tells followers she is the repentant prostitute Mary Magdalene, the woman who first saw the risen Messiah standing by the empty tomb.

but ignoring my opinion, what xian theist can deny the reality of this claim, and truly revealing ....how can this claim be denied by any xian theist?
What tools do you use to deny these claims?

If Mohammered  decided to return via Nulla Nulla west of Kempsey  NSW, then I'd be asking the other georaphically and culturally predictable mob of abrahamic believers "what's their thinking?" not the xians.

[Grimm]

I'll have a go at any faith that attempts to convert me - and I don't truly care overmuch which it is.  My objection is that, regardless of faith, people place the writings of a book above the wellbeing of their fellow man without any logical justification for doing so.

Frankly, I'll throw down with that regardless of origin.

However, don't think that Christianity is somehow the nonviolent guy in the back getting beat up because he's the easy target - it's remarkable to me how many Christians have some semblance of that persecution complex.  Remember Norway a few months back - the shooter and the island?  Howabout Tim McVeigh and Oklahoma City?  Abortion clinic shooters?  What's up with all the christian militiamen?  Howabout the KKK or the Sons of the Rose?  This is all last-few-decades stuff.

No, Christians didn't fly planes into the towers, but, then, neither did New York muslims.  The guys that did that were just as extreme as the KKK, just more successful in recent days.

Bluntly - every single time any member of faith goes on about how persecuted they are and how people should just not look at 'em, my response will always be "Tough.  I'm looking at both of you."

[Historicity]

MagicMiles, have a look at this page:

Topic: Proof of Islam, Last message

The search algorithms on this site have no way to search an individual member's messages.  I had  one on Mohammed's pedophilia documenting his comments on the subject from the 2 Moslem biographies of him that are considered official.  I thought it was good, but now I can't find it.

[Historicity]

Some great responses here, thanks. I was a touch flippant in my OP, looking back at it. Anyway, I hope to respond to some of these responses over the coming weekend.

Don't apologize.  It was appropriate.  I just leveled your karma for it.

BSD Man accused us of being an anticatholic site.  I answered that Catholicism is 1/3 of the anglophone world and by my guesstimate gets 1/3 the traffic.  I also noted that the televangelists HEAL!-ing people are Protestants and the name of this site gives it an antiprotestant slant.

Islam is only 2% of the anglophone world so it only gets 2% of the attention.

[Historicity]

Most Christians cherry pick the Bible, and don’t make as big a deal out of the story as their other Abrahamic counterparts. 

No,  Jewish and Moslem practice for Bible reading is to recite a ceremonial prayer and then open their bible with ceremony and dignity and isolate a passage and expound on it.  Cherry picking is thereby dictated.

Douglas Rushkoff brags in his Nothing Sacred: The Truth about Judaism that this "deconstructs" the Bible, so it's y'know, academically trendy.

Of course it discourages -- even disables --  you from comparing things.