Author Topic: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?  (Read 6235 times)

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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #232 on: March 25, 2012, 12:30:20 AM »
Checkmate

Can I have your autograph Mr. Current?[1]
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #233 on: March 25, 2012, 12:33:58 AM »
Did you operate exactly as though GOD does not exist...?

There should be evidence of god's existence regardless of how we think.  Thus far, there is none.  If there were evidence, then there would be no talk of "faith".  Instead of presenting "faith in god", you would be presenting "the facts about god".  You should be able to present god in the same way you can present a microwave oven.


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Was your belief in GOD because of religion or was it something personal for you...?

Belief in god is religious by nature, so your question is irrelevant.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Astreja

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #234 on: March 25, 2012, 12:38:02 AM »
You see, the point is that according to your bible mankind as a whole is forever doomed by sin. trillions of people that have lived and trillions of people that have yet to live are damned straight from birth because of the actions of two. And your "good" and "just" God is not only okay with that but was the one who put that kind of system in place.

Yes but for a greater purpose.

There *is* no "greater purpose," ILY.  The suffering of those in hell automatically trumps any reason your imaginary friend might have had for putting them there, and when one considers eternity, it is simply not possible to get to the point of it all because there's no end point.

Everyone is guilty. We can't blame anyone for our own actions.

And with this one sentence, ILY, you have simultaneously affirmed and denied the validity of modern-day humans being punished for the foibles of Adam and Eve.  Well done!  (Springy G takes a sip of Green Chartreuse and snickers quietly to Herself)
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Offline caveat_imperator

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #235 on: March 25, 2012, 12:52:12 AM »
Can you bother to back up your claims with logic and reason?

Can you explain how you claim to know anything objectively?

Can you explain why you're so insecure about your religious beliefs as to be threatened by questions and criticisms of your claims and call it hatred?

Can you explain how you can tell the difference between being insane and your personal religious convictions?

Can you do any of this without resorting to fallacies, sophistry, and dishonesty?

Why should we ever take YOU or your religious claims seriously if you can't do any of this?

Checkmate

Yes, it does look like Omen has you checkmated.
You can't prove a negative of an existence postulate.

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #236 on: March 25, 2012, 01:40:03 AM »
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/parable

par·a·ble? ?[par-uh-buhl] 
noun
1.
a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson.
2.
a statement or comment that conveys a meaning indirectly by the use of comparison, analogy, or the like.

(Matthew 13:13)


Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #237 on: March 25, 2012, 01:43:56 AM »
And with this one sentence, ILY, you have simultaneously affirmed and denied the validity of modern-day humans being punished for the foibles of Adam and Eve.  Well done!  (Springy G takes a sip of Green Chartreuse and snickers quietly to Herself)

They both apply. Enjoy your Green Chatreuse...

Offline Asmoday

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #238 on: March 25, 2012, 01:57:47 AM »
Yes but for a greater purpose.
If you follow that line of thought, you can no longer say your god is just or good. A "greater purpose" that includes damning untold trillions of people right from birth and thus also damns a good portion of them to everlasting torture as collateral damage for the supposed "greater good" is neither great nor good. Not to mention that this approach is in no way compatible with a loving (much less an all-loving) god.

Another point is that God is supposed to be omnipotent (though feel free to tell me he is not). That means the only reason for him to take this approach instead of any other (that does not involve the damnation of trillions of people and losing a large bunch as collateral damage on the way) is that he wants it to be that way. Every lost soul to end up in hell because of that approach is there because God wants it that way. If he did not, it would not happen that way.

So, if the "greater purpose" approach is what you want to run with, youl'll have to say goodbye to the concept of a good and all-loving god.

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This is not what Jesus taught. The Kingdom of GOD was made for children.
Which a) does not answer the question "Do you consider it good and just to condemn all for the actions of two?" and b) heavily depends on who you ask about what Jesus taught.

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If by somehow, this worked out for the greater good, yes.
Ah, so you are willing to sacrifice innocents as collateral damage for some supposed greater good? How about if it was not about you but if they came to carry away your children, your partner or any other loved one in your live?

Also keep in mind that the argument of a plan that will leave people as collateral damage along the wayside (and I'd like to mention that we are talking about an eternity spent in hell here) is a rather moot thing to discuss when talking about an entity that is supposed to be omnipotent (again, feel free to tell me that God is not). An omnipotent entity doesn't need all of that unless it actually wants it. 

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Everyone is guilty. We can't blame anyone for our own actions.
This is wrong according to the bible.

The sin that Jesus came to pay for was not individual guilt that everybody is responsible for themselves. The reason Jesus was here was specifically about the original sin that had entered the world through Adam and Eve by eating from the tree of knowledge. And that sin is passed on from generation through generation, simply by being born. That's the original sin that Jesus, according to the bible, came here for.
(In German the word for original sin is more descriptive than the English 'original sin'. Around here it is called 'Erbsünde' which can be translated as "inherited / heritable sin" which describes what the whole thing is about.)

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What He wants is for you to know the truth. This truth will set you free.
Which is another answer that is rather disconnected from what I said there.

It's one thing to want to spread the truth, it's another to say "Worship me or burn forever." Because that is pretty much what the message boils down to if you remove the frosting from the cake.

I'd also like to mention again that for an omnipotent entity it is no problem to convey any kind of truth in the clearest way possible to each and every human without having to fall back to threats of eternal torture.

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I don't think it's quite what you are making it out to be but rather what you "think" it sounds like to you.
On the contrary, I would say that my example was still rather tame compared to the real thing where the motto boils down to "Worship me or burn in hell forever."

« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 02:09:57 AM by Asmoday »
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Offline Astreja

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #239 on: March 25, 2012, 02:07:32 AM »
And with this one sentence, ILY, you have simultaneously affirmed and denied the validity of modern-day humans being punished for the foibles of Adam and Eve.

They both apply.

They can't both apply, ILY.  The myth of Original Sin is a piece of supernatural sleight of hand whereby, according primarily to Paul of Tarsus's ramblings, Biblegod magically made Adam's and Eve's transgression transmissible to future generations.

If we cannot blame others, likewise we cannot be blamed for others.  We cannot be blamed for the eating of the forbidden fruit if we did not, in fact, physically eat it with malice of forethought.
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Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #240 on: March 25, 2012, 02:28:29 AM »
If you follow that line of thought, you can no longer say your god is just or good. A "greater purpose" that includes damning untold trillions of people right from birth and thus also damns a good portion of them to everlasting torture as collateral damage for the supposed "greater good" is neither great nor good. Not to mention that this approach is in no way compatible with a loving (much less an all-loving) god.

Can you show me in scripture that GOD damns a child to hell...?

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So, if the "greater purpose" approach is what you want to run with, youl'll have to say goodbye to the concept of a good and all-loving god.
Explain to me what you think love is...?

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Which a) does not answer the question and b) heavily depends on who you ask about what Jesus taught.
Why ask anyone. Think for yourself. Read what Jesus Christ taught and learn for yourself what he said. You find that it is good. Then, you won't have to ask anyone.

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Ah, so you are willing to sacrifice innocents as collateral damage for some supposed greater good? How about if it was not about you but if they came to carry away your children, your partner or any other loved one in your live?
I am not GOD, so I don't get to decide what does and doesn't happen. I think you have taken it out of context a bit.

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Also keep in mind that the argument of a plan that will leave people as collateral damage along the wayside (and I'd like to mention that we are talking about an eternity spent in hell here) is a rather moot thing to discuss when talking about an entity that is supposed to be omnipotent (again, feel free to tell me that God is not). An omnipotent entity doesn't need all of that unless it actually wants it. 
I think GOD is actually a lot smarter than both you and I. And if He allows the suffering, it is for a purpose.

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This is wrong according to the bible.
No it is not. original sin still exists. Jesus payed the price for the "sins" of the world. Not just sin. But triumphed. It was because of the original sin that sin had entered into the world in the first place. But we still make our own choices. Those of us who have reached an age of accountability.

It was Jesus Christ who upheld the law and lived a sinless life, in a sinful world.

And the more you come to understand, the more you will find out that GOD has already taken care of it for you. But by rejecting Jesus Christ. You are rejecting GOD.

So you guys falsely accuse GOD.





Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #241 on: March 25, 2012, 02:40:06 AM »
And another thing.

You guys don't get a free pass with science. Science is subject to correction. Just as a persons faith is corrected and perfected by GOD.





Offline Astreja

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #242 on: March 25, 2012, 02:58:16 AM »
Can you show me in scripture that GOD damns a child to hell...?

Romans 3:23.  "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."  You'll notice that it does not read "For all (except for very small children) have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

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Explain to me what you think love is...?

Wanting someone to be safe and happy, and, if one is capable, sparing no expense or effort to make it happen.  An omnipotent god is automatically infinitely evil if it allows even one thinking, feeling being to remain in hell for eternity, as it is hypothetically quite capable of relieving that individual's suffering but chooses not to do so.

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Read what Jesus Christ taught and learn for yourself what he said. You find that it is good.

There is nothing good about killing fig trees, insulting a woman by likening her to a dog, or destroying a village's livelihood by infesting their pigs with demons.

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And if He allows the suffering, it is for a purpose.

The 'purpose' is null and void if it results in suffering.

You are deliberately worshipping an evil god.  Even worse, you are making excuses for your god's evil behaviour.  From this moment forward, ILY, until your faith is completely gone, may your life reflect the full consequences of condoning evil.

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So you guys falsely accuse GOD.

Right, that's it.  No more Ms. Nice Guy.  (Springy G rummages around in Her personal Tickle Trunk[1] of woo-woo toys and holds aloft Her rune-ensorcelled sword Astrejureldingblót[2].)

Do you believe that an eternal hell exists, ILY?
  • If you answer 'Yes,' your god is guilty; our accusations are true; and you have slandered us by claiming that our accusations were false.
  • If you answer 'No,' this 'salvation' business is nonsense and your preaching here is in vain.
Choose.
 1. q.v. the Canadian kids' show Mr. Dressup.
 2. "Astreja's lightning offering."
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Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #243 on: March 25, 2012, 03:28:44 AM »
Romans 3:23.  "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."  You'll notice that it does not read "For all (except for very small children) have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
Then you must also read this for what it is. ( 1 Corinthians 15:22 )

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There is nothing good about killing fig trees, insulting a woman by likening her to a dog, or destroying a village's livelihood by infesting their pigs with demons.
Cute but is this really all you've got...?

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You are deliberately worshipping an evil god.

No. GOD is good. It is people who choose to do evil things. GOD holds people accountable.


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Even worse, you are making excuses for your god's evil behaviour.

No. It is GOD who exposes peoples evil behavior.

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From this moment forward, ILY, until your faith is completely gone, may your life reflect the full consequences of condoning evil.
Your spell has no effect on me. You are only doing this to yourself you know. They are your words and GOD will hold you accountable to your words.

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Do you believe that an eternal hell exists, ILY?
  • If you answer 'Yes,' your god is guilty; our accusations are true; and you have slandered us by claiming that our accusations were false.
  • If you answer 'No,' this 'salvation' business is nonsense and your preaching here is in vain.
Choose.
What I believe is there are many ways that lead to death but only One way that leads to life. The way to life is through Jesus Christ only.

Choose.




Offline Asmoday

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #244 on: March 25, 2012, 03:29:24 AM »
Since it is high time for me to get some sleep, I will answer to your reply later today.

Though after a quick overview I can already say that I'm neither particularly surprised nor impressed by your replies to my arguments. Mostly because in most cases you completely ignored the actual points I was making and instead you chose to go off on tangents and preach some more.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 03:31:54 AM by Asmoday »
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #245 on: March 25, 2012, 05:07:00 AM »
Deleted. (others already said it, posted before I read the last page.)
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 05:09:19 AM by joebbowers »
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Offline Eaten by Bears

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #246 on: March 25, 2012, 05:19:51 AM »
You are deliberately worshipping an evil god.

No. GOD is good. It is people who choose to do evil things. GOD holds people accountable.


Indeed he does.

And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

Because everyone knows that it is completely reasonable to have a group of children ripped to shreds by bears because they called someone names.

No, not evil at all.

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #247 on: March 25, 2012, 05:43:50 AM »
Can you show me in scripture that GOD damns a child to hell...?

Deuteronomy

23:2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

23:3 An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever:

Notice there are no exceptions for children. This is just the first I happened to click on. There are dozens more places in the bible where people are damned to hell with no exceptions for children.

It was because of the original sin that sin had entered into the world in the first place.
I thought that was just a parable?

And the more you come to understand, the more you will find out that GOD has already taken care of it for you. But by rejecting Jesus Christ. You are rejecting GOD.

We do not reject Jesus Christ or God. We just know they don't exist. Others have pointed this out to you but you still refuse to respond to it.

How can I love something I don't believe exists? You have to convince us God exists and have a damn good rational excuse for the horrors he's committed before we can even begin to love him.
Why should I believe in your God? Not one of the thousands of other gods that other religions believe in?

If you can't answer those questions, you can't even begin to debate us.

Quote from: ILOVEYOU
What He wants is for you to know the truth. This truth will set you free.

This sentence is so sad. You need to understand that you are dilusional. You live in a fantasy of your own creation, constantly re-writing the rules to make your insane beliefs continue to make sense in the face of their obvious falsehood. You and the truth are not even on speaking terms.

You believe, based on faith. We know, based on evidence. It's sad that you consider ignorance a virtue.
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Online Emily

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #248 on: March 25, 2012, 06:40:22 AM »
Science is subject to correction.

And that's the beauty of science - it is subject to correction, as long as those corrections follow the scientific method. The very definition of a scientific theory includes being corrected if observations, which follow the scientific method, contradict an already existing study in that theory.[1]

No way does science being 'corrected' mean that science is a bad thing; there is nothing wrong with being corrected. In fact, I love to be corrected. Personally, I've been corrected many times on this forum by the minds of individuals much smarter than myself. I enjoy it.

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Just as a persons faith is corrected and perfected by GOD.

But when it comes to faith there is no room for correction, no matter how much you might want to involve your god as the corrector. 

I have a question: If a persons faith of corrected and perfected by GOD as you claim, and 33% (or 2.1 billion people)[2] in the world are classify themselves as christian, believing in the same christian god that you believe in, who believe they are worshiping him the way he wishes to be worshiped, then why are there over 38,000 different christian denominations?[3][4]

That's 37,999 different denominations that share the same faith in yhwh that you do. Way to admit your OneTrueChristianTM-ness to the forum.

And, if a persons faith is perfected and corrected by god then why have so many people who once had a deep and intimate relationship with yhwh and jesus decide to walk away from their faith because it and he both decided that

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

and not by something that is based on 'correctedness' like science is? People who both heard his word, and had faith in his word have walked away from his word because they found his word void of any realistic meaning. So god corrected and perfects peoples' faith, right? Well, many people who once had faith walked away from it because they questions their faith when looking at what how the world appears to us. Some have asked god for evidence for why they should follow him, and he failed miserable. He failed because he couldn't produce anything that is objective, and can stand up to its scrutiny.  Examples: something that is so blatantly obvious OR something that can at least be tested upon AND observed with an alternative explanation that seems more realistic that goes against what the bible says is the reason behind everything.

If faith is corrected and perfected by god then billions of the world population that believe in this god that you speak of is going to hell because there can only be one way of worshiping him. Unless of course he's teasing everyone and will damn us all just for sick and sadistic laughs that only he'll enjoy.
 1. Here's the definition I am using: http://wmap.gsfc.nasa.gov/site/glossary.html
 2. http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html
 3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations
 4. http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a106.htm
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #249 on: March 25, 2012, 07:12:37 AM »
Science is subject to correction.

No.  The things discovered by science are subject to correction.  Science is not, at least, not so far.  And ironically, to prove that the scientific method is faulty, you would have to use the scientific method.
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #250 on: March 25, 2012, 07:25:33 AM »
What I believe is there are many ways that lead to death but only One way that leads to life. The way to life is through Jesus Christ only.

Choose.

Prove.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline kymer

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #251 on: March 25, 2012, 07:27:31 AM »
Pianodwarf, I don't think ILY is here to try and prove anything about his / her beliefs. It looks to me like he / she is simply stating their beliefs, that's all.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #252 on: March 25, 2012, 07:34:27 AM »
Pianodwarf, I don't think ILY is here to try and prove anything about his / her beliefs. It looks to me like he / she is simply stating their beliefs, that's all.

That's possible, but if so, it may be an indication that ILY has not read the rules.  (I'm not saying this actually is the case, only that it's a possibility.)

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Discussion threads are for discussion of the topic at hand, not simply advertising one's opinions. As such, forum members are expected to back up assertions they make, and not engage in stonewalling, shifting goalposts, changing the subject, or employing similar tactics to avoid addressing points raised against their arguments.

{bold mine}

Forum rules:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,21732.0.html
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Offline Ivellios

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #253 on: March 25, 2012, 08:04:59 AM »
Romans 3:23.  "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."  You'll notice that it does not read "For all (except for very small children) have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
Then you must also read this for what it is. ( 1 Corinthians 15:22 )

To die in Christ you must first believe in Christ. ie. You must make the profession of faith that you believe that Jesus is your lord and savior to save you from the sin of being born (that you inherited from A&E), that you repent of all the sins you have commited, and will try, with Jesus' help to live a perfect life. Be Perfect for the Lord is perfect.

Until you do that, you are not a Christian and as such doomed to eternal torture in hell. You need to quit bringing Islamic beliefs into Christianity. There is no verse in the bible that reflects the Qu'ran, (paraphrased) "If one dies before being told about the Great Allah, they are permitted into Heaven, for Allah is most merciful. If one is told about the Great Allah and rejects him, they are to be put to death and Allah, the Just, will bring forth his wrath against the sinner and they shall burn in Hell forever-more." Christians couldn't accept the reality that thier god would send 2 year-olds to hell so they started the Qu'Ran based tradition, but claim, "It's in the Bible somewhere!"

It is not in there, and those of us that have read the entire bible know this.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 08:07:12 AM by TruthSeeker »

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #254 on: March 25, 2012, 08:22:46 AM »
Can you show me in scripture that GOD damns a child to hell...?
2 Thessalonians 1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

It is well known that as (i) new-borns cannot know Jesus, and (ii) some sects say that pedobaptism is pointless then all children are damned to hell until they are old enough to "know Jesus".

Deuteronomy 13:6-10
If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods,... thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die.

2 Chronicles 15:13 Whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.


Seems clear to me - dead babies are in Hell.

We must also bear in mind the OT where God orders the death of many races because they will not accept Him. The races include children. If you worship another god, you are hell-bound, even if it is God who kills you.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Omen

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #255 on: March 25, 2012, 09:46:01 AM »
<snip>

Checkmate

Can you bother to back up your claims with logic and reason?

Can you explain how you claim to know anything objectively?

Can you explain why you're so insecure about your religious beliefs as to be threatened by questions and criticisms of your claims and call it hatred?

Can you explain how you can tell the difference between being insane and your personal religious convictions?

Can you do any of this without resorting to fallacies, sophistry, and dishonesty?

Why should we ever take YOU or your religious claims seriously if you can't do any of this?
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Offline Omen

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #256 on: March 25, 2012, 09:48:49 AM »
And another thing.

You guys don't get a free pass with science. Science is subject to correction. Just as a persons faith is corrected and perfected by GOD.

False dichotomy: Science can be true and a god could exist anyway.

False analogy: Science is objective, it is a methodological that uses a system of self correcting objective analysis.  Religious faith is not objective, it is inseparable from imagination and subject to nothing more than whim.

Argument from personal incredulity: Science is not rendered at fault because it does precisely what it as a methodology is designed to do, it is not subject to your personal whim.  Faith however is subject to your personal whim and is inseparable from make believe.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Omen

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #257 on: March 25, 2012, 09:50:51 AM »
No. GOD is good. It is people who choose to do evil things. GOD holds people accountable.

God being defined as good tautologically makes 'good' meaningless.

God destroys people who are suffering, god is good.

God helps out people who are suffering, god is good.

If god is good in both instances, then what is 'good' if anything.. meaningless.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Asmoday

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #258 on: March 25, 2012, 01:51:26 PM »
Can you show me in scripture that GOD damns a child to hell...?
Astreja, GrayBeard and others have already shown you a number of verses regarding the damnation of children by God.

As it has been said before, the bible does not have any passages that go like "All of you are guilty of sin and worthy of punishment! Small children and persons not accountable for their actions excluded."
In fact, as the bible shows time and time again, God has no qualms about either killing children or declaring children guilty of something that their parents or ancestors have done. It's pretty much a recurring theme throughout the bible as a whole.

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Explain to me what you think love is...?
ILY, you are stalling here and you know it.

No matter the definition of love, if you presume an entity that is omnipotent then if there is just one collateral victim of its schemes and plans, the entity can not be called all-loving  or even loving anymore.
It seems it has not really sunk in yet that if you declare your god to be omnipotent then whatever it is about, the bucket always stops right in front of that god because in such a case everything that happens, happens for the sole reason because that god either wants it to happen or because the god doesn't care about it enough to change it.

In the case of God that means that every collateral victim in his sin-and-redemption scheme for the greater purpose (That reminds me that you never spoke about what the "greater purpose" actually is. Please clarify.) is either wanted by God or God doesn't care about those. In either way the concept of the loving god flies right out of the window in both cases.

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Why ask anyone. Think for yourself. Read what Jesus Christ taught and learn for yourself what he said. You find that it is good. Then, you won't have to ask anyone.
I can't help but notice that you have completely avoided to touch the actual question again.

In case you forgot it, I'll repeat it for you: Do you consider it good and just to condemn all for the actions of two?

And regarding what you wrote here instead, you surely realize that you don't have a leg to stand on with that kind of claim, don't you?
According to what you wrote here, one has to just read the bible and what Jesus meant will become obvious.

If that is the case, I would like you to give us a short explanation why there are about 38000 distinct Christian denominations that all differ (sometimes almost completely) in their views of what Jesus really meant. And this already large number doesn't even begin to scratch on the number of all the home-brew versions of Christianity that float around, too.

I would also like to mention that Christians can't even agree on one uniform bible.
If I do what you say and I read the KJV, will my conclusions about Jesus' teachings be correct?

If I do what you say and I read the NIV, will my conclusions about Jesus' teachings be correct?

If I do what you say and I read the Conservative Edition (of Conservapedia), will my conclusions about Jesus' teachings be correct?

If I do what you say and I read the Jefferson Bible, will my conclusions about Jesus' teachings be correct?

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I am not GOD, so I don't get to decide what does and doesn't happen. I think you have taken it out of context a bit.
You are missing the point I was making there.

It's not about you being able to decide. It's about you being on the receiving end of such a plan for a "greater purpose."
Since you are ok with collateral damage for the cause of a greater purpose, surely you would have nothing against seeing your children and your loved ones being dragged away despite their innocence if it happens for a "greater purpose"?

If you would oppose that, if you would not be ok with that happening to your family, to have them suffer despite their innocence, then why, I ask you, are you ok when God does exactly that on a global scale and, since he is supposedly omnipotent, he would not even need to do any of that?

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I think GOD is actually a lot smarter than both you and I. And if He allows the suffering, it is for a purpose.
once again: If God is omnipotent, then talking about him allowing suffering for a greater purpose is pretty much nonsense.

If an omnipotent deity does something, it does so exactly in the way it wants to. Any side effects of those actions are either intended by the deity or the deity doesn't care about the side effects. Because if the deity did not desire the side effects and it also cares about it, then the deity would have done things differently. That's the thing about omnipotence; there are simply no limitations. So plans that produce collateral damage on the way to a greater purpose are nonsense with an omnipotent entity in mind.

Besides, you should not really ask about how smart God actually is. The answer would not come out in favor of God.

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No it is not. original sin still exists. Jesus payed the price for the "sins" of the world. Not just sin. But triumphed. It was because of the original sin that sin had entered into the world in the first place. But we still make our own choices.
You are engaging in Christian doublethink again.

Jesus mission was about the Original Sin. That's what everything else hangs on according to the bible. Not some vague sins and guiltiness based on personal life choices of each individual human.

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Those of us who have reached an age of accountability.
Which the bible says absolutely nothing about. The "age of accountability" that so many Christians cling to for dear life is pure conjecture that requires heavy apologetic mental gymnastics to twist and turn some obscure bible verses into lending credit for such an idea as an age of accountability. I say "lending credit to" instead of "showing" because even with heavy apologetics you can't turn the bible verses into coming close to saying anything about an age of accountability.
And given how we all know that apologists usually have no problem getting "a day" to mean "several billions of years" and similar feats, it should tell us something how much credibility the notion of an age of accountability has.

The only reason it is still held up high is that they want it to be true since, of course, the all-loving God and baby Jesus can't possibly damn children to everlasting torture in hell.

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And the more you come to understand, the more you will find out that GOD has already taken care of it for you. But by rejecting Jesus Christ. You are rejecting GOD.
See, ILY, here you go again. This is exactly what I meant with my example before.

First of all: Damning all based on the actions of two is injustice, no matter how you turn it. That God offers you a way out (but only if you do what he wants you to do) does not change the fact that the underlying mechanism is still unjust right to the core.

And as a second point this really demonstrates that my analogy was pretty much spot on. You say that "Jesus paid the price" but here you turn right around that in fact he has not paid the price for you if you don't get on your knees, open your mouth for the bouncer and even be grateful for it.

"I have paid the price for the VIP lounge for you. Go ahead, have fun." is a gift.

"I have paid the price for the VIP lounge for you. Whether you wanted in or not, you're in my debt now; be grateful and do what I say or I'll have you beat to a pulp" is extortion.

And as you have just said yourself, if you don't worship Jesus and God, you will be punished for it. As such the whole thing is not only unjust at the core ("You're all damned and guilty just by having been born.") but extortion on top of it ("Worship me or suffer eternal torture.").

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So you guys falsely accuse GOD.
Not the case, as it has been demonstrated.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2012, 01:59:24 PM by Asmoday »
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Offline Astreja

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #259 on: March 25, 2012, 10:46:39 PM »
Cute but is this {dead pigs, dead fig trees, verbal abuse} really all you've got...?

It's more than enough to destroy the myth of Jesus being 100% good.  I have other examples, one where Jesus clearly violates the 10 commandments by being rude to his mother (thereby violating "Honour thy father and thy mother") and instructing his disciples to make off with a colt (thereby violating "Thou shalt not steal").

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Your spell has no effect on me. You are only doing this to yourself you know. They are your words and GOD will hold you accountable to your words.

Then kindly ask your god to come get Me, right here and right now.

As for My words, they are not a spell so much as My personal wish.  I have an excellent track record of getting what I want, so whether you think it's had an effect on you is completely irrelevant.

And what I want is for everyone you deal with in real life to see you for what you truly are.  If you're on the up-and-up, this should present no problem to you.  If, on the other hand, you behave in real life like you behave here, I strongly advise you to correct the problem forthwith.
 
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What I believe is there are many ways that lead to death but only One way that leads to life. The way to life is through Jesus Christ only.

Choose.

I choose against Jesus Christ.  Happy now? ;D
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Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #260 on: March 25, 2012, 11:08:02 PM »
You are deliberately worshipping an evil god.

No. GOD is good. It is people who choose to do evil things. GOD holds people accountable.


Indeed he does.

And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

Because everyone knows that it is completely reasonable to have a group of children ripped to shreds by bears because they called someone names.

No, not evil at all.

Why didn't you post the next couple of versus after that where it is said that "he" did evil in the sight of The Lord. GOD did not do this.