Author Topic: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?  (Read 5407 times)

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Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #174 on: March 23, 2012, 08:14:16 PM »
Where exactly do you think you've ever provided an answer that has the explanatory relevance of being scholarly?
Your hatred runs deep.

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #175 on: March 23, 2012, 08:21:10 PM »
<snip>

GOD commanded them to multiply. Sex was not the temptation. The temptation was to become like GOD. GOD even warned them not to eat of the fruit of that tree. The tree of, knowledge of good and evil.


Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #176 on: March 23, 2012, 09:45:23 PM »
GOD commanded them to multiply. Sex was not the temptation. The temptation was to become like GOD. GOD even warned them not to eat of the fruit of that tree.
Correction: God threatened them with death on the same day as they ate of the tree. Therefore God is violent. They did not die the same day they ate the tree. Therefore God is a liar.
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The tree of, knowledge of good and evil.
Which, having not eaten from it, they would not be able to tell right from wrong, moral from immoral, so had absolutely no means to judge or measure their actions.

So, God threatens someone who can not understand the consequences of his actions or even the difference between right and wrong. Taking the fruit would have been inevitable, since not knowing good from evil, God's threat is essentially meaningless[1] because Adam, not knowing what evil is, is not aware that God is being evil to him.  Note that the serpent never tempted anyone, merely told them the truth, and let them choose for themselves, without any threats or lies.

Please, try to read the Bible and actually comprehend a word or two, rather than accepting whatever interpretation is preached to you.
 1. even more so, because it's a lie anyways
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #177 on: March 23, 2012, 10:10:59 PM »
Son, child, friend.... I guess there may be a difference.

You're not answering the question.  Does god have only one child (Jesus), or does he have multiple children?

If you can't give a straight answer, how do you expect us to understand your words?
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline sun_king

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #178 on: March 23, 2012, 10:13:33 PM »
Correction: God threatened them with death on the same day as they ate of the tree. Therefore God is violent. They did not die the same day they ate the tree. Therefore God is a liar.

And incompetent.

But he made up for that later on, infanticides, genocides, ethnic cleansing, rapes, global annihilation etc.

Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #179 on: March 23, 2012, 10:22:58 PM »

And incompetent.

But he made up for that later on, infanticides, genocides, ethnic cleansing, rapes, global annihilation etc.

Don't forget the foreskins! God loves him some foreskins. I've often thought "200 Philistinian Foreskins" would be a great name for a Christian Rock band.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #180 on: March 23, 2012, 10:58:33 PM »
Correction: God threatened them with death on the same day as they ate of the tree. Therefore God is violent. They did not die the same day they ate the tree. Therefore God is a liar.
They did die the same day. Their innocence died that day.

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Which, having not eaten from it, they would not be able to tell right from wrong, moral from immoral, so had absolutely no means to judge or measure their actions.
They didn't need to. They only knew that which was good. There wasn't evil until they were aware of it.

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So, God threatens someone who can not understand the consequences of his actions or even the difference between right and wrong.
He did not threaten them. He told them the truth.

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Taking the fruit would have been inevitable, since not knowing good from evil, God's threat is essentially meaningless[1] because Adam, not knowing what evil is, is not aware that God is being evil to him.
 1. even more so, because it's a lie anyways
GOD was not being evil to them. GOD told them the truth. It is appointed for every man to die once. GOD does test though. Even Jesus Christ.

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Note that the serpent never tempted anyone, merely told them the truth, and let them choose for themselves, without any threats or lies.
Yes he did tempt them. It was very deceitful and you still haven't noticed the deception. The deception was doubt. To doubt GOD. Thinking they could become like Him. When in fact, they were already made in His image and likeness.

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Please, try to read the Bible and actually comprehend a word or two, rather than accepting whatever interpretation is preached to you.


You are thinking in the flesh and missed the "Spiritual" intent.

« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 11:25:49 PM by ILOVEYOU »

Offline Historicity

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #181 on: March 23, 2012, 10:59:06 PM »
Which, having not eaten from it, they would not be able to tell right from wrong, moral from immoral, so had absolutely no means to judge or measure their actions.

So, God threatens someone who can not understand the consequences of his actions or even the difference between right and wrong. ...choose for themselves, without any threats or lies.

Please, try to read the Bible and actually comprehend a word or two, rather than accepting whatever interpretation is preached to you.

Sheesh, Kaz, you got that backwards.  It's a fairy tale.  It only works if you don't overthink it.  It's like trying to figure out how Hansel could fool the witch into showing him how to be pushed into a hot oven. 

To comprehend it you have to go into a dizzy, childlike state of mind.  Like ILOVEYOU who is persistently in that zone.

Offline Omen

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #182 on: March 23, 2012, 11:18:29 PM »
Where exactly do you think you've ever provided an answer that has the explanatory relevance of being scholarly?
Your hatred runs deep.

You've already engaged in hateful dismissal of others here, that's besides the point, now answer the question and take responsibility for your claims.

Where exactly do you think you've ever delivered an explanatory answer even barely approaching a concise rational example of open and honest discourse?

How do you tell the difference between you being mentally ill and your personal religious belief?

I have to ask this precisely because you offer no more basis for your claims other than what you make up at random.  If you would actually construct valid rationale...there wouldn't be this need.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #183 on: March 23, 2012, 11:23:06 PM »
They did die the same day. Their innocence died that day.
God did not say that their innocence would die. he said THEY would die. God doesn't like having words put in his mouth.

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They didn't need to. They only knew that which was good. There wasn't evil until they were aware of it.
So, before they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they already knew good? This is flawed for so many reasons. First, in order to have a sense of good, you would also have to have a sense of evil. There would be nothing to contrast it to otherwise. Without evil, everything would be considered "good". Second of all, how would they have knowledge of good before eating the fruit? You are sounding REALLY desperate here.

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He did not threaten them. He told them the truth.
That is an absolute lie. He told them they would die. They did not die. See how simple that is?

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GOD was not being evil to Him. GOD told Him the truth. It is appointed for every man to die once. GOD does test though. Even Jesus Christ.
So God appointed Adam and Eve to die? So they had no free will in the choice? It was all part of God's plan? Then how was it a sin on their part?

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Yes he did tempt them. It was very deceitful and you still haven't noticed the deception. The deception was doubt. To doubt GOD.
He never told them to doubt God. He simply told them what would ACTUALLY happen if they ate the fruit. it would have been right to doubt god anyways, since he is a violent, jealous liar.
 

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You are thinking in the flesh and missed the "Spiritual" intent.
Whatever that means.

A few questions that might help clear a few things up about our posts:
1. Have you ever had a serious head injury?
2. Did you at some point in your life take excessive amounts of any of the following: acid, crystal meth, crack, or perhaps huff gasoline?
3. When you were in utero, is it possible that the umbilical cord became wrapped around your neck, cutting of the flow of oxygen to the brain?

If none of the above applies, then congratulations, you are completely delusional.


Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline Omen

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #184 on: March 23, 2012, 11:24:38 PM »
I realize ILY that as a Christian you're threatened by attempts to hold you accountable for your claims, but doing so is not an expression of hatred.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #185 on: March 24, 2012, 12:00:23 AM »
God did not say that their innocence would die. he said THEY would die. God doesn't like having words put in his mouth.
They did die.

 
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So, before they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they already knew good? This is flawed for so many reasons. First, in order to have a sense of good, you would also have to have a sense of evil. There would be nothing to contrast it to otherwise. Without evil, everything would be considered "good". Second of all, how would they have knowledge of good before eating the fruit? You are sounding REALLY desperate here.
No, they only knew what GOD had shown them, which was good because GOD knew the difference. So they only knew that which was good. Whether they realized it or not.

 
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That is an absolute lie. He told them they would die. They did not die. See how simple that is?
They did  die. A part of them had died that day. The serpent was talking of the flesh, GOD was referring to something else. And yes, they did indeed eventually return to the dust as He said. Physically.


 
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So God appointed Adam and Eve to die? So they had no free will in the choice? It was all part of God's plan? Then how was it a sin on their part?
Sure they did. They made the choice to still eat of the tree after the serpent questioned them about what GOD had commanded them. Then he blatantly questioned them and called GOD a liar and tempted them. Questioning GODS authority, in which he knew. Instilling doubt. And they ate it. GOD did not stop them from it. They made the choice to do it.

GOD is GOD. There is no other. He can do nothing to GOD, so he attacked His creation. GOD is the authority. Not the serpent. The serpent falsely portrayed to be the truth. Deceiving as if he was above GODS authority by falsely accusing GOD and lying to Adam and Eve about what GOD had commanded them.

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He never told them to doubt God. He simply told them what would ACTUALLY happen if they ate the fruit. it would have been right to doubt god anyways, since he is a violent, jealous liar.
This is apologetics.
 

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Whatever that means.

Yes, you missed it. But there is still hope.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2012, 12:03:38 AM by ILOVEYOU »

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #186 on: March 24, 2012, 12:09:30 AM »
They did die.

Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

They didn't die until 930 years later.  kaziglu bey's point still stand.

Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline sun_king

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #187 on: March 24, 2012, 12:17:11 AM »
ILY, did Jesus really die on the cross or it was just his innocence?

How long will you keep stalling about Gen 2:17? Or have you some logical explanation that will equate 1 day to 930 years?

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #188 on: March 24, 2012, 12:26:59 AM »
They did die.

Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

They didn't die until 930 years later.  kaziglu bey's point still stand.
They did die. Their innocence died. And by no means, by eating the fruit, did they gain anything better than that of which they already had. They lost it. By eating, they became aware of evil. They already had free will because GOD did not stop them. What..? They gained the awareness to be evil...?

I do not feel as if this was unintended though. Meaning GOD knew this would happen. And GOD gave them the ability to choose. And GOD is fair and righteous. The temptation was done in deceit. GOD righteously punished both man and the serpent.

Now that Jesus Christ has fulfilled the law righteously, and was falsely accused, judgement will come. Now is the time of grace.

Who are you going to believe.

GODS truth or the serpent...?

« Last Edit: March 24, 2012, 01:11:48 AM by ILOVEYOU »

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #189 on: March 24, 2012, 12:32:56 AM »
ILY, did Jesus really die on the cross or it was just his innocence?

How long will you keep stalling about Gen 2:17? Or have you some logical explanation that will equate 1 day to 930 years?

Jesus never lost His innocence because He never sinned. He was falsely accused.

2 Peter 3:8


Offline Aaron123

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #190 on: March 24, 2012, 12:39:55 AM »
They did die. They're innocence died. And by know means, by eating the fruit, did they gain anything better than that of which they already had. They lost it. By eating, they became aware of evil. They already had free will because GOD did not stop them. What..? They gained the awareness to be evil...?

First of all, it's "their".

Second, the story does not, in any shape or form, say that their "innocence" will die.  It only states that they "will surely die".  It gives no qualifiers.  The plain reading of the text is that god meant that they would drop dead, not that "innocence" would die.


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Who are you going to believe.

GODS truth or the serpent...?

I'll go with the snake.  At least I can prove that snakes actually exists.  The same cannot be said for your god.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #191 on: March 24, 2012, 12:50:42 AM »

First of all, it's "their".
  :angel:

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Second, the story does not, in any shape or form, say that their "innocence" will die.  It only states that they "will surely die".  It gives no qualifiers.  The plain reading of the text is that god meant that they would drop dead, not that "innocence" would die.

This is what you think He meant. They did in fact die. They were no longer the same after that. They sinned against GOD. Thus GOD set forth a plan for their Salvation immediately. And you reject His Salvation. Choosing to believe the lie, the serpent.

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I'll go with the snake.  At least I can prove that snakes actually exists.  The same cannot be said for your god.

You believe the lie and are full of doubt.


Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #192 on: March 24, 2012, 01:01:57 AM »
Jesus never lost His innocence because He never sinned. He was falsely accused.
2 Peter 3:8

So it's okay if I curse a fig tree too?
Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #193 on: March 24, 2012, 01:09:36 AM »
You're not answering the question.  Does god have only one child (Jesus), or does he have multiple children?

If you can't give a straight answer, how do you expect us to understand your words?

This is not difficult to understand, I don't know why you keep harping on it. If a scientist created a race of intelligent robots, they would be his "children" and if he also had one biological child with his wife, that would be his child. The man would have only one begotten son, but many "children".
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #194 on: March 24, 2012, 01:42:39 AM »
This is what you think He meant. They did in fact die. They were no longer the same after that. They sinned against GOD. Thus GOD set forth a plan for their Salvation immediately.

The bible states, very plainly, that they would die the very day they ate from the fruit.  They didn't die until 930 years later.  Nowhere does the text states they would die a "spiritual" death.


Quote
And you reject His Salvation. Choosing to believe the lie, the serpent.

***

You believe the lie and are full of doubt.

Can you, for one second, understand that this is nothing more than preacing?  Can you understand that this is akin to saying that we should behave because Santa Claus won't give us presents if we're not good?

For me to "reject" god's salvation, I would have to believe that he exists.  I don't believe.  Do you understand that? This is like saying that you "reject" the salvation of Zeus.  You're not rejecting anything, you just... don't believe in that particular god.

Likewise, for me to "believe the lie", that requires me to believe that a talking snake once existed.  I don't believe that snakes can talk.  Do you understand that?

For me to "doubt", that requires I have some thinking that god exists.  I don't think that god exists.  No more than you think Zeus or Santa Claus exists.  Do you understand that?


Quote from: joebblowers
This is not difficult to understand, I don't know why you keep harping on it. If a scientist created a race of intelligent robots, they would be his "children" and if he also had one biological child with his wife, that would be his child. The man would have only one begotten son, but many "children".


He's not answering the question, that's the thing.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline caveat_imperator

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #195 on: March 24, 2012, 01:56:49 AM »
I'll go with the snake.  At least I can prove that snakes actually exists.  The same cannot be said for your god.
You believe the lie...
The snake told the truth. Yaweh was the one who told Adam and Eve a bald-faced lie.
You can't prove a negative of an existence postulate.

Offline Astreja

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #196 on: March 24, 2012, 02:10:58 AM »
IDK what the case is your trying to make. I am not a scholar in this field. I would think that if there are remnants of stories similar to that of which are in The Holy Bible that predates them only reinforces the possibility that they are of purpose.

Not ripped off as you insinuate but corrected.

"Corrected"?  Heeheeheeheehee!

I think the Sumerian version and the Torah version are both rather silly mythological hyperbole.  At most, the river system around the Tigris and Euphrates had an unusually bad flood one year.  Crops were washed out; livestock and humans probably died.  With the passage of time, and village elders telling everyone about That Really Big Flood We Had Once, the story got bigger and bigger until, in the book of Genesis, the waters covered the top of the highest mountain.

This was, of course, because the writers of Genesis apparently didn't know of the existence of Chomolungma, the highest mountain on the planet at 29,029 feet above sea level.

You see, ILY, in order for rain to cover the top of Mount Everest in 40 days, it would have to come down at a rate of 30 feet per hour.  Noah and his passengers, human and animal alike, would have suffocated in rather short order due to the rain displacing all the air.  The homemade boat would almost certainly capsize and/or be smashed to bits before the end of the first hour.

Do the math yourself:  29,029 feet in 40 days (960 hours) = 30.2385 feet per hour.  Rain falling at a rate of 30 feet per hour is ludicrous.  The heaviest rainfall on record for a 1-hour period is 12 inches, in Missouri in 1947.

If you insist on believing stupid things to keep your faith alive, ILY, that's your prerogative.  If you want to discuss things with us, though, don't expect us to believe the same stupid things just because you said so.
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Offline Astreja

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #197 on: March 24, 2012, 02:17:18 AM »
They did in fact die. They were no longer the same after that.

And yet they walked out of the Garden and went off to raise a family.  This is obviously some strange new definition of "die" that I wasn't previously aware of.  By any chance does this version of "die" apply to Jesus, as according to your book of fairy tales he was also roaming about after his alleged death?
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Offline Asmoday

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #198 on: March 24, 2012, 09:24:22 AM »
ILY is doing the obvious thing for a Christian here. If stories in the bible don't match with reality, common sense or if they don't even fit in with their preconceived notions of how things should be, then they just turn around and interpret the shit out of the story until it means whatever they want it to mean.

Just like here, obviously Adam and Eve did not die, despite what God had told them before. So the obvious thing for believers like ILY to do is not to look at the story and say "That doesn't make sense." Instead words change meaning for no reason. Like "they will die" becomes "their innocence will die" if the guys who are supposed to drop dead instantly go on to live another 930 years.
Absilio Mundus!

I can do no wrong. For I do not know what it is.

Offline Ivellios

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #199 on: March 24, 2012, 10:58:41 AM »
They did in fact die. They were no longer the same after that.

Oh, why don't you just die?

I mean your innocence to die or you to die spiritually, since these are common mistakes to make whan you are taking about dying and death. Very, very common mistakes. Yes. I know some people that have died. No, no, no, they didn't really die... how could you have confused that? Tsk, tsk. Not that kind of die. Why would you possibly think of something like that? It's obvious the real version of dying they really experienced.

Makes a whole lot of sense doesn't it? I don't think so. Dying is dying, death is death. When my friends and loved ones died, they really died. Not some WIDOR[1] crap you're saying.

YHWH is an incredible liar. In fact the very first chapter of his book of love is riddled with lies that anyone that's completed 7th grade Life Sciences can debunk in full. The whole relationship is off to a bad start when he has to start it off based on an All-Knowing God making willfull lies.

Day 1

1) Sun not needed.
2) Magical forcefield to seperate day from night since the Earth is flat.

Day 2
3) Gravity? Huh? No, the water is sentient and "gathers together!"
4) Ocean overhead. Where rain comes from and why sky is blue.
5) Solid dome holding up the water. (has windows in it for the rain to fall.)

Day 3
6) Someone that's never heard of Chromosomes, DNA, Splicing, Hybrid plants, Symbiosis, etc. would think this day is correct. Those of us who know, however... Omission is a lie, expecially when the offender is "All-Knowing."

Day 4

7) Sun is only to tell what time it is.
8 ) Moon is a light source.
9) Moon is supposed to "govern the night" but how can it, when it spends 1/2 of it's time on the wrong side of the Earth? Maybe "govern the Month" but certainly not "govern the night"
10) Stars are itty-bitty rocks hammered into the firmament, that Dictate the seasons. Axial tilt? Orbiting around the Sun? Nah, frab that, it's winter because the STARS say so!

Day 5

11) Mule. Enough said. Repeat Lie 6.
12) "All kinds?" Seems like God's creation can imagine "kinds" that God himself lacks the intelligence and imagination for!

Day 6

13) Do you rule all birds, land and sea animals?
14) Eat every plant that has seeds.
15) Eat every tree that bears fruit with seeds.
16) Make sure to eat every single green plant. It's yours FOR FOOD.
17) Don't eat anything without seeds or not green.

Who is really "The Prince of Lies"? Then he takes one of these trees after commanding us to eat, to not eat. I could really keep going.
 1. Willfully Ignorant Denial Of Reality.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2012, 11:04:55 AM by TruthSeeker »

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #200 on: March 24, 2012, 02:20:13 PM »
I've decided not to eat the fruit. I will fully trust in GOD.

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #201 on: March 24, 2012, 02:26:12 PM »
I've decided not to eat the fruit. I will fully trust in GOD.

Something tells me you were beginning to doubt, and now you're trying to shut that out.  Don't.  If your god is real, then he should be able to stand up to doubt.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline caveat_imperator

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #202 on: March 24, 2012, 03:50:19 PM »
I've decided not to eat the fruit. I will fully trust in GOD.
Then just think of this forum as the fruit, and every post you make is you taking another bite of that fruit.
You can't prove a negative of an existence postulate.