Author Topic: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?  (Read 6261 times)

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Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #145 on: March 23, 2012, 01:34:34 AM »
OT is clarified to mean, sons of the Most High. Meaning they are GODS children.

God has multiple children?

I take it that means John 3:16, where it refers to Jesus as "god's only begotten son", is wrong.

You are correct, so maybe now you should understand what Jesus is saying to them.

All men are created beings. Jesus Christ was conceived of The Holy Spirit.

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #146 on: March 23, 2012, 01:39:33 AM »
It's late and I'm turning in. Good night.

Offline Astreja

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #147 on: March 23, 2012, 01:43:01 AM »
I am reading in context, ILY.  "The Most High" is probably the god El -- Yahweh's dad.  At their roots, both Judaism and Christianity are based on Mesopotamian and Eastern Mediterranean polytheism.
Are you kidding me..? Your not serious, right...? It amazes me the hoops people will jump through.

I'm absolutely serious, ILY.  Large parts of the Bible are definitely based on earlier works, such as the Enuma Elush -- For instance, the story of Noah.

IMNSHO, the story of the Talking Snake™ in Eden is actually a parable written to support the cause of Yahwist monotheism, which was trying to make inroads against the polytheists.  The Snake™ is actually a goddess symbol that represents transformation and the quest for hidden knowledge.

Adam and Eve (and, by extension, those who persisted in worshipping the Queen of Heaven) were condemned not for disobedience but for questing after knowledge.  They supposedly didn't know the difference between right and wrong until they ate the forbidden fruit, so if Biblegod condemned them for that he was definitely out of line.
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #148 on: March 23, 2012, 01:45:46 AM »
I take it that means John 3:16, where it refers to Jesus as "god's only begotten son", is wrong.

You are correct, so maybe now you should understand what Jesus is saying to them.

Take note everyone: ILOVEYOU has said that John 3:16 is factually incorrect.


If the bible can't get the facts about Jesus right, how do you expect anyone else to?   :blank:
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #149 on: March 23, 2012, 01:48:21 AM »
You know what I meant.

No, mother fucker, I don't. Why would you refer to an eternal being, whom you love with all your heart, in the past tense?
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Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #150 on: March 23, 2012, 01:49:28 AM »
I take it that means John 3:16, where it refers to Jesus as "god's only begotten son", is wrong.

You are correct, so maybe now you should understand what Jesus is saying to them.

Take note everyone: ILOVEYOU has said that John 3:16 is factually incorrect.


If the bible can't get the facts about Jesus right, how do you expect anyone else to?   :blank:

I miss read what you typed. I thought your argument was that Jesus is GODS only Son. He is and that is what I meant.

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #151 on: March 23, 2012, 01:52:57 AM »
I am reading in context, ILY.  "The Most High" is probably the god El -- Yahweh's dad.  At their roots, both Judaism and Christianity are based on Mesopotamian and Eastern Mediterranean polytheism.
Are you kidding me..? Your not serious, right...? It amazes me the hoops people will jump through.

I'm absolutely serious, ILY.  Large parts of the Bible are definitely based on earlier works, such as the Enuma Elush -- For instance, the story of Noah.

IMNSHO, the story of the Talking Snake™ in Eden is actually a parable written to support the cause of Yahwist monotheism, which was trying to make inroads against the polytheists.  The Snake™ is actually a goddess symbol that represents transformation and the quest for hidden knowledge.

Adam and Eve (and, by extension, those who persisted in worshipping the Queen of Heaven) were condemned not for disobedience but for questing after knowledge.  They supposedly didn't know the difference between right and wrong until they ate the forbidden fruit, so if Biblegod condemned them for that he was definitely out of line.

GOD told them no. They did it anyway but on a deception. They were already created in GODS image and likeness.

The temptation was that they would become like GOD, so they ate it. They doubted GOD and believed the lie.

They thought they would become like GOD.




Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #152 on: March 23, 2012, 01:54:36 AM »

Does He throw the lilies in the field in hell to...?

At least give a hint about what you are talking about. Please supply your mistranslated delusion.
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Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #153 on: March 23, 2012, 01:55:53 AM »
You know what I meant.

No, mother fucker, I don't. Why would you refer to an eternal being, whom you love with all your heart, in the past tense?
Because we were discussing scripture about a subject that happened over 2000 years ago when Jesus Christ came. Jesus Christ pre-existed before any man and the Word of GOD came through the Jewish people. Jesus was Jewish. And it is correct that I say this in context to scripture.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 01:57:39 AM by ILOVEYOU »

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #154 on: March 23, 2012, 01:57:07 AM »

Does He throw the lilies in the field in hell to...?

At least give a hint about what you are talking about. Please supply your mistranslated delusion.
I have stated my opinion on this before. In the speaking Gods language thread.


Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #155 on: March 23, 2012, 01:59:50 AM »
[I have stated my opinion on this before. In the speaking Gods language thread.

...and I bet if I look, it will be evasive, irrelevant and wrong.

Nowhere does the OT say there is a punishment for not following the laws, other than the demise of Israel. I'm fine with that, since it also says that Israel's enemies will grow in strength (that's me).

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #156 on: March 23, 2012, 02:06:07 AM »
You're an enemy of Israel?
Go on up you baldhead.

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #157 on: March 23, 2012, 02:16:09 AM »
You're an enemy of Israel?

I think, Biblically, anyone who is not Israel is defined to be as bad as a Samaritan, so I must be.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #158 on: March 23, 2012, 02:17:18 AM »
Jesus was Jewish.

I am not talking about the context of scripture. If he WAS Jewish then...what IS he now?

Is he dead? If yes, then he WAS Jewish. Is he alive? If yes, then he IS STILL Jewish. Is he eternal? If yes, then he is not human.

If you have accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior then you believe him to be God. ETERNAL...NOW...IS.

If you think of Jesus as an historical figure then you are perfectly justified in using the past tense to describe him. However, by insisting that Jesus WAS Jewish you are belittling your God. And you betray your skepticism.

I show affection for my pets by holding them against me and whispering, "I love you" repeatedly as they struggle to break free.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #159 on: March 23, 2012, 02:18:39 AM »

I think, Biblically, anyone who is not Israel is defined to be as bad as a Samaritan, so I must be.

maybe you can be a good samaritan. Help little old ladies cross the street etc.

where in Aus are you btw? I'm in Brisbane.
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #160 on: March 23, 2012, 03:25:57 AM »
It's so ridiculously stupid to say that men were created in God's image. If that's true, then why do we all look different? Why do we have black people, white people, yellow people, and brown people? Why do we have giants, midgets and dwarfs? Why do we have people with black eyes, brown eyes, blue eyes, green eyes, and more? Why do we have different hair colors? Why do some people have an extra fold in their eyelid? Why do some people have hairy chests, but some don't? Why do we ALL look different?! Exactly which of us were created in God's image?

The truth of evolution is so blatantly obvious, yet theists still stick to their superstitious bullshit no matter how much proof there is that it's nonsense. Faith is not a virtue, it's a fucking handicap. You voluntarily hobble and shackle your mind, and deny the truth of science.

But I bet you have a cell phone, computer, TV, etc. don't you, you hypocrite?
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #161 on: March 23, 2012, 03:50:51 AM »
I don't believe there IS a god - so to "love him with all my heart" is completely impossible for me.......Belief cannot be forced, cannot be willed into existence - certainly not to the extent where belief is as good as "knowing" (which is what your statements suggest is how strong this belief would be)......Presumably, if I don'f follow the most important commandment, I will be in for some tough times in the afterlife......

ILY, you seem to have missed this question.  You made the following statements.....
Jesus Christ's authority is above all that came before Him.....The law is still in effect. Yes, Jesus confirms this.
Sure it does, you just don't know it yet because you refuse Jesus Christ.
Here, Jesus plainly tells you the intent but you will refuse it until your blue in the face. Why is that...?
....about your chosen god, but ALL of them continue to miss the point.  You have an assertion that Jesus was real and said those things, an assertion that your god exists......but so what?  Muslims assert that Jesus was NOT a god, Hindus assert a completely different set of gods, as do - quite literally - hundreds of religions around the world and through history.

So there's no reason whatsoever for me to accept your random assertion that "this god is the REAL one".  No evidence to take your claims seriously as opposed to any others.  And, therefore, no way that I can "love" your god as you claim the most important commandment demands.

So I ask you again: how can you describe your god as "loving", when his chief commandment is one that is physically impossible for me?  One that will remain physically impossible unless and until your god is actually prepared to conclusively demonstrate his existence to me.

But he won't, will he?  And so I will be condemned for all eternity for something outside of my control.  You'll forgive me, I hope, if I struggle to see where the "love" is there?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Omen

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #162 on: March 23, 2012, 07:38:24 AM »
ILY, appeals to authority are fallacies.  The religious text does not lend itself to the conclusion you're making.  Blindly repeating dogma does not answer the problem.

Sure it does, you just don't know it yet because you refuse Jesus Christ.

This is another fallacy, this is dismissive special pleading, specifically meant to demean someone for not believing you at face value.  The qualification being inserted is 'refuse Jesus Christ', without explanation or even a coherent logical inference that follows from a valid premise to a conclusion ( ie non-sequitur ).

Just like your supposed 'answer' doesn't reasonable or even coherently follow from the evidence and more importantly you make absolutely no effort to explain how it would or should.
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Offline Omen

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #163 on: March 23, 2012, 07:50:33 AM »
Because we were discussing scripture about a subject that happened over 2000 years ago when Jesus Christ came. Jesus Christ pre-existed before any man and the Word of GOD came through the Jewish people. Jesus was Jewish. And it is correct that I say this in context to scripture.

Jesus doesn't fulfill Jewish Messianic Prophecy/Eschatology, actual Judaic Messianic Prophecy is mostly 'alien' to what Christian's claim of it.  Christian's actually go out of their way to ignore the vast amounts of messianic prophecy not fulfilled and arbitrarily make up the 'second coming' like a rug to sweep it all under.  Elsewhere Christian claims of prophecy are reliant on poor translations. 

Jesus doesn't do any of this:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_eschatology

Quote
    The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
    Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance (Isaiah 2:4)
    The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
    He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8–10)
    The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
    Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
    Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
    He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
    All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
    Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
    There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
    All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
    The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
    He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 53:7)
    Nations will recognize the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13–53:5)
    The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
    The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
    Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
    The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot
    He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
    He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13–15, Ezekiel 36:29–30, Isaiah 11:6–9)

At NO point is there a pause in fulfilled vs unfulfilled prophetic claims.  The Christian's claims of messianic prophecy ignore the vast majority of this and even go so far as to rely upon poor translations and references to scripture that have nothing to do with prophecy.  Such examples include the book of Daniel, where a telling of the Maccabean Revolt is warped into a claim of prophetic nonsense.. that then all of christian theology is laughably balanced upon.

« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 08:44:19 AM by Omen »
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Offline Zankuu

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #164 on: March 23, 2012, 08:12:16 AM »

Are you kidding me..? Your not serious, right...? It amazes me the hoops people will jump through.

I'm absolutely serious, ILY.  Large parts of the Bible are definitely based on earlier works, such as the Enuma Elush -- For instance, the story of Noah.

IMNSHO, the story of the Talking Snake™ in Eden is actually a parable written to support the cause of Yahwist monotheism, which was trying to make inroads against the polytheists.  The Snake™ is actually a goddess symbol that represents transformation and the quest for hidden knowledge.

Adam and Eve (and, by extension, those who persisted in worshipping the Queen of Heaven) were condemned not for disobedience but for questing after knowledge.  They supposedly didn't know the difference between right and wrong until they ate the forbidden fruit, so if Biblegod condemned them for that he was definitely out of line.

GOD told them no. They did it anyway but on a deception. They were already created in GODS image and likeness.
[...]

I can't help but notice that you avoided Astreja's main point about the Torah's authors using older pieces of literature as a building block. I don't blame you, it's a rather tough point to refute. The Noahic flood is clearly plagairized from the ancient Sumerian deluge myth, save for a few details.

Please address why you think this isn't this case, ILY.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline velkyn

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #165 on: March 23, 2012, 08:46:59 AM »
How many OT laws are there anyway..? Could you even remember them all...? Seriously...?
Oh I like this one.  ILY has decided that his god made a mistake with so many laws.  How dare god be so stupid to think that humans could remember so many laws?   ;D
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #166 on: March 23, 2012, 09:22:18 AM »
I miss read what you typed. I thought your argument was that Jesus is GODS only Son. He is and that is what I meant.

*sign*  First of all, the word is "misread".  Second, this goes against what you said earlier.  Here, you're saying:

Quote
Jesus is GODS only Son. He is and that is what I meant

Earlier, you said:

Quote
OT is clarified to mean, sons of the Most High. Meaning they are GODS children


So which is it?  Does god have only one child (Jesus), or does he have multiple children?
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #167 on: March 23, 2012, 01:35:33 PM »


Please address why you think this isn't this case, ILY.

IDK what the case is your trying to make. I am not a scholar in this field. I would think that if there are remnants of stories similar to that of which are in The Holy Bible that predates them only reinforces the possibility that they are of purpose.

Not ripped off as you insinuate but corrected.

 

Offline velkyn

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #168 on: March 23, 2012, 01:50:26 PM »
IDK what the case is your trying to make. I am not a scholar in this field. I would think that if there are remnants of stories similar to that of which are in The Holy Bible that predates them only reinforces the possibility that they are of purpose.

Not ripped off as you insinuate but corrected.

so your god lied to people before? How do you know which version is the "right" one?

  Being that there is no evidence for any kind of magical flood, the flood myths are simply all as the kitty says
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Offline Omen

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #169 on: March 23, 2012, 02:00:10 PM »
I am not a scholar in this field.

Where exactly do you think you've ever provided an answer that has the explanatory relevance of being scholarly?
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #170 on: March 23, 2012, 06:14:48 PM »
I am reading in context, ILY.  "The Most High" is probably the god El -- Yahweh's dad.  At their roots, both Judaism and Christianity are based on Mesopotamian and Eastern Mediterranean polytheism.
Are you kidding me..? Your not serious, right...? It amazes me the hoops people will jump through.

I'm absolutely serious, ILY.  Large parts of the Bible are definitely based on earlier works, such as the Enuma Elush -- For instance, the story of Noah.

IMNSHO, the story of the Talking Snake™ in Eden is actually a parable written to support the cause of Yahwist monotheism, which was trying to make inroads against the polytheists.  The Snake™ is actually a goddess symbol that represents transformation and the quest for hidden knowledge.

Adam and Eve (and, by extension, those who persisted in worshipping the Queen of Heaven) were condemned not for disobedience but for questing after knowledge.  They supposedly didn't know the difference between right and wrong until they ate the forbidden fruit, so if Biblegod condemned them for that he was definitely out of line.

GOD told them no. They did it anyway but on a deception. They were already created in GODS image and likeness.

The temptation was that they would become like GOD, so they ate it. They doubted GOD and believed the lie.

They thought they would become like GOD.
God being "perfect" can ONLY create perfection,why would they be tempted by anything? As incredible as sex feels,why was that not a temptation? lust would be at the top of even YOUR list before an apple
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #171 on: March 23, 2012, 08:07:25 PM »
It's so ridiculously stupid to say that men were created in God's image. If that's true, then why do we all look different? Why do we have black people, white people, yellow people, and brown people? Why do we have giants, midgets and dwarfs? Why do we have people with black eyes, brown eyes, blue eyes, green eyes, and more? Why do we have different hair colors? Why do some people have an extra fold in their eyelid? Why do some people have hairy chests, but some don't? Why do we ALL look different?! Exactly which of us were created in God's image?

The truth of evolution is so blatantly obvious, yet theists still stick to their superstitious bullshit no matter how much proof there is that it's nonsense. Faith is not a virtue, it's a fucking handicap. You voluntarily hobble and shackle your mind, and deny the truth of science.

But I bet you have a cell phone, computer, TV, etc. don't you, you hypocrite?
Image and "likeness"

Doesn't mean an exact replica.

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #172 on: March 23, 2012, 08:08:59 PM »
<snip>
What part of, to the best of your understanding, are you not understanding...?

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #173 on: March 23, 2012, 08:11:26 PM »
Son, child, friend.... I guess there may be a difference.