Author Topic: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?  (Read 5372 times)

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #116 on: March 22, 2012, 06:46:31 PM »
I am really starting to miss some of the old theists we had on these boards :'(

like who? 
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Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #117 on: March 22, 2012, 07:27:14 PM »
ILY,
When a staff member modifies your post, do not change or undo the modification.




« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 06:38:16 AM by screwtape »

Offline Historicity

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #118 on: March 22, 2012, 07:40:36 PM »
It has been written and explained to you in plain English. You know what it says. You know what it means. The choice is yours to make.

You just admitted that it is self-delusion.

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #119 on: March 22, 2012, 08:17:14 PM »



Quote
I will listen to your story if you feel you want to tell me. I understand that you are a former Believer. I will leave the decision up to you whether or not you would like to say anything. Not that I am interested in challenging my faith but to be a friend to you.

Sincerely,
ILOVEYOU


As you're well aware ILY, your lunch has been eaten and the drinking of your shake is almost complete. If you're not here to have your faith challenged, or to use the common sense and reason you've observed here to challenge faith yourself, then why continue ?

Why not just go somewhere else and find an easy mind that you can challenge and see become enslaved ? Isn't it obvious here that no one is accepting your opinions ? Isn't it obvious that rational and clear thinking are the standard here, and so such ridiculous opinions and arguments such as yours are an exersize in futility on your part to state them ?

Come on man, get serious......If you're any kind of a sharp theist, then by now you would recognize that to labour in a place like this is to be guilty of wasting labour. God wouldn't like that would he ?  ;) .......Isn't it time to shake the dust off your sandals ?

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not at all suggesting you leave, but I do want to suggest that it's time you start listening and to shift gears into neutral and let the good information that your hearing sink in and that you contemplate it with all seriousness.

Or are you like most others who are simply too afraid to do so ?

Remember, you came here to our turf so to speak. And you've come obviously with the wrong motives. It's time to respect the fact of where you are and learn about what makes us tick.

Really man, it's time to buck up and get serious about your approach here and stop your preaching or you really would be better off taking your opinions elsewhere.

Cheers
Yes, it is.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #120 on: March 22, 2012, 10:34:18 PM »
I am really starting to miss some of the old theists we had on these boards :'(

like who?

Back in 2008, the board was pretty feral. It was dominated by a theist called Question Mark. I bet you miss him.
I strive for clarity, but aim for confusion.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #121 on: March 22, 2012, 11:01:19 PM »
On these two commandments hang    "all"    the Law and the Prophets

What form the knowledge of GOD will take...? Not understanding your question here.

How long...? Only GOD can answer this question for you.

It's a Pharisaic lie, though. The whole law is not framed by loving your neighbour. One Pharisee camp was trying to get people to believe that, around 0BC, but it's not true. Large amounts of the Jewish law cannot be intuited from loving your neighbour.

Matthew 5:18 states that the whole law is in place until the end of time.
http://scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/mat5.pdf

Galatians states that there was a rift between what Paul believed, and what James believed. This means that you have a choice between believing Paul, and ignoring the synoptic gospels, or vice versa, but the two cannot be resolved, because the synoptic gospels were written by his opponents.

I strive for clarity, but aim for confusion.

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #122 on: March 22, 2012, 11:40:48 PM »
On these two commandments hang    "all"    the Law and the Prophets

What form the knowledge of GOD will take...? Not understanding your question here.

How long...? Only GOD can answer this question for you.

It's a Pharisaic lie, though. The whole law is not framed by loving your neighbour. One Pharisee camp was trying to get people to believe that, around 0BC, but it's not true. Large amounts of the Jewish law cannot be intuited from loving your neighbour.

Matthew 5:18 states that the whole law is in place until the end of time.
http://scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/mat5.pdf

Galatians states that there was a rift between what Paul believed, and what James believed. This means that you have a choice between believing Paul, and ignoring the synoptic gospels, or vice versa, but the two cannot be resolved, because the synoptic gospels were written by his opponents.

It does when Jesus Christ says it does. Jesus Christ's authority is above all that came before Him.

The law is still in effect. Yes, Jesus confirms this.

Or perhaps just seeing what Jesus Christ had to say about it.

Offline Omen

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #123 on: March 22, 2012, 11:53:22 PM »
ILY, appeals to authority are fallacies.  The religious text does not lend itself to the conclusion you're making.  Blindly repeating dogma does not answer the problem. 
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #124 on: March 23, 2012, 12:07:29 AM »

It does when Jesus Christ says it does. Jesus Christ's authority is above all that came before Him.


I don't see how you can conclude that, or how it matters. If the whole law is still in effect, then Jesus hasn't done anything. Only Paul's bogus theory says that worship of Jesus has magical sin-wiping powers.

Jesus' message in the synoptic is that certain laws are more important for getting browny points with God. It's still the same old Judaism, but stricter, and will hell in it.

Jesus endorses hell, as if it came from a previous prophet, yet it didn't. He doesn't say "Now there is a hell". Jesus was non-existent, so he could change nothing.

I strive for clarity, but aim for confusion.

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #125 on: March 23, 2012, 12:20:22 AM »
Are you guys seriously having this much trouble with this...? It's as plain as day, yet you still try and complicate it for the sake of argument.

You guys are so bent on OT scripture that the obvious truth just passes right over your heads. Here, Jesus plainly tells you the intent but you will refuse it until your blue in the face. Why is that...?

So which is it guys... Do you just prefer the law or would you rather live freely by GODS grace...?

How many OT laws are there anyway..? Could you even remember them all...? Seriously...?

There may be a few hundred of them I think, when you get right down to it.

But you guys are asking me to give up on GOD, yet you guys don't even know this...?

Hmmmmmm...........................

Are you sure Jesus Christ was/is your Savior...?

There is even more than this, too.

Good news, Good news, Good news.

GOD is good.

And you guys call me crazy because I believe in GOD...?

You better believe that I love GOD.

All you try and see is the negative. Missing the intent.

Or perhaps that is the intent.......................



« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 12:25:02 AM by ILOVEYOU »

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #126 on: March 23, 2012, 12:21:10 AM »
ILY, appeals to authority are fallacies.  The religious text does not lend itself to the conclusion you're making.  Blindly repeating dogma does not answer the problem.

Sure it does, you just don't know it yet because you refuse Jesus Christ.

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #127 on: March 23, 2012, 12:24:25 AM »

It does when Jesus Christ says it does. Jesus Christ's authority is above all that came before Him.


I don't see how you can conclude that, or how it matters. If the whole law is still in effect, then Jesus hasn't done anything. Only Paul's bogus theory says that worship of Jesus has magical sin-wiping powers.

Jesus' message in the synoptic is that certain laws are more important for getting browny points with God. It's still the same old Judaism, but stricter, and will hell in it.

Jesus endorses hell, as if it came from a previous prophet, yet it didn't. He doesn't say "Now there is a hell". Jesus was non-existent, so he could change nothing.

Now you are just making apologetics.

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #128 on: March 23, 2012, 12:27:23 AM »
Are you guys seriously having this much trouble with this...? It's as plain as day, yet you still try and complicate it for the sake of argument.

You guys are so bent on OT scripture that the obvious truth just passes right over your heads. Here, Jesus plainly tells you the intent but you will refuse it until your blue in the face. Why is that...?

So which is it guys... Do you just prefer the law or would you rather live freely by GODS grace...?

The OT laws were made by god, were they not?

If ignoring them and following the Jesus plan is better, then doesn't that mean god made a whole bunch of shitty laws?
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Astreja

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #129 on: March 23, 2012, 12:32:23 AM »
You guys are so bent on OT scripture that the obvious truth just passes right over heads heads. Here, Jesus plainly tells you the intent but you will refuse it until your blue in the face. Why is that...?

Uh... Because it isn't "the truth" until it's supported by evidence, and "Jesus" probably didn't say it.

Quote
So which is it guys... Do you just prefer the law or would you rather live freely by GODS grace...?

Personally, I think Judaic law is a dog's breakfast of silly and even immoral rules.  I also think that "God's grace" is wholly mythical and simply cannot coexist with a god that would create a hell.

(Oh, and how exactly does one "live freely" when dependent upon the "grace" of an insanely powerful being such as Biblegod?  Does.  Not.  Compute.)

And I vastly prefer the 9 Noble Virtues of Ásatrú, the Eightfold Path of Buddhism and the Amsterdam Declaration of Humanism to anything the Unholy Babble has to offer.

Quote
How many OT laws are there anyway..?

613.

Quote
Are you sure Jesus Christ was/is your Savior...?

I am 99.999...% sure Jesus Christ is a mythical construct loosely based on various Jewish teachers; that if ever such a person lived, he is now quite dead and has been dead for over 1900 years; and that he is absolutely powerless to save anyone -- Even himself.

I am also quite sure that I will go to My grave without having once uttered the Sinner's Prayer.
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #130 on: March 23, 2012, 12:44:06 AM »
Now you are just making apologetics.

Now you are evading arguments you know you cannot win.

I strive for clarity, but aim for confusion.

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #131 on: March 23, 2012, 12:50:14 AM »
Are you guys seriously having this much trouble with this...? It's as plain as day, yet you still try and complicate it for the sake of argument.

You guys are so bent on OT scripture that the obvious truth just passes right over your heads. Here, Jesus plainly tells you the intent but you will refuse it until your blue in the face. Why is that...?

So which is it guys... Do you just prefer the law or would you rather live freely by GODS grace...?

The OT laws were made by god, were they not?

If ignoring them and following the Jesus plan is better, then doesn't that mean god made a whole bunch of shitty laws?

No, there was/is a purpose. To expose sin to a sinful world. That no one could fully keep the law to GODS expectations.

Man fall was a huge one. Deceived into believing we could become like GOD. Didn't happen, not going to happen. We were already made in His image and likeness to begin with, but GOD is GOD. There is none other. His plan for Salvation was already set into motion from the beginning. It is through Jesus Christ this Salvation came by the grace of GOD because He loves us. He always has.




Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #132 on: March 23, 2012, 12:53:32 AM »
Now you are just making apologetics.

Now you are evading arguments you know you cannot win.

I've already won.


Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #133 on: March 23, 2012, 12:54:08 AM »

No, there was/is a purpose. To expose sin to a sinful world. That no one could fully keep the law to GODS expectations.


It doesn't fucking matter if you can't follow all the laws. Nowhere in the OT, does it say that God sends you to hell if you can't follow them ALL.
I strive for clarity, but aim for confusion.

Offline Astreja

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #134 on: March 23, 2012, 12:58:13 AM »
Man fall was a huge one. Deceived into believing we could become like GOD. Didn't happen, not going to happen.

*AHEM*  (Springy G reaches into Her wallet and pulls out Her 2012 membership card for the Asgard Deities' Union, Local 204)  I see no problem whatsoever in apotheosis.  Only a really, really insecure god would be upset about having competition from other gods.  The more the merrier, I say.

Oh, and you might want to check out Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34.   8)
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Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #135 on: March 23, 2012, 12:58:33 AM »

No, there was/is a purpose. To expose sin to a sinful world. That no one could fully keep the law to GODS expectations.


It doesn't fucking matter if you can't follow all the laws. Nowhere in the OT, does it say that God sends you to hell if you can't follow them ALL.

Does He throw the lilies in the field in hell to...?

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #136 on: March 23, 2012, 01:02:08 AM »
He just keeps getting crazier and crazier. Studies have shown that theists consider evidence against their beliefs to be validation of their beliefs. Their sense of logic and reason has been torn asunder by a childhood of magical belief indoctrination.

As I've said so many times, the best cure is prevention. Not that we shouldn't continue to answer his questions and provide evidence, but it seems he's been backed into a corner and he's simply preaching now.
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #137 on: March 23, 2012, 01:09:00 AM »
No, there was/is a purpose. To expose sin to a sinful world.

If the world is sinful, how can sin be "exposed"?


Quote
That no one could fully keep the law to GODS expectations.

So god introduced a bunch of impossible-to-follow laws, then told no one about the punch line until some 1,000 years or so later.

I'm not even going to try to imagine how many generations that amounts to.


Quote
Man fall was a huge one. Deceived into believing we could become like GOD. Didn't happen, not going to happen.

Yadda, yadda, yadda, preaching.


Quote
We were already made in His image and likeness to begin with, but GOD is GOD. There is none other.


So man looks like god?  Why does god have man-nipples?  What does god uses his testicles for?


Quote
His plan for Salvation was already set into motion from the beginning. It is through Jesus Christ this Salvation came by the grace of GOD because He loves us. He always has.

So why wait 1,000 years to impliment the plan?  Why not do it right away at the fall, or at least by the time of the flood?  With a 1,000 years waiting time, it's no wonder that god's chosen people thought the Jesus plan was a bunch of hokey...
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #138 on: March 23, 2012, 01:10:02 AM »
Does He throw the lilies in the field in hell to...?

He's having a go at the flowers now!  &)

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Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #139 on: March 23, 2012, 01:16:14 AM »
Man fall was a huge one. Deceived into believing we could become like GOD. Didn't happen, not going to happen.

*AHEM*  (Springy G reaches into Her wallet and pulls out Her 2012 membership card for the Asgard Deities' Union, Local 204)  I see no problem whatsoever in apotheosis.  Only a really, really insecure god would be upset about having competition from other gods.  The more the merrier, I say.

Oh, and you might want to check out Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34.   8)

Why don't you read those full scripture versus in context...?

OT is clarified to mean, sons of the Most High. Meaning they are GODS children. Read the verse before that and after that. Doesn't seem to be praising them much. Yet they will die like every other ruler...? Doesn't sound like He was referring to them as GOD to me.

Yet Jesus confirms this because of the OT scripture to them. Even explains that scripture but did not recognize what He was saying.

The Word of GOD did come through the Jewish people. Jesus was Jewish.

 

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #140 on: March 23, 2012, 01:18:39 AM »
Jesus was Jewish.

Don't you mean "is"?
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Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #141 on: March 23, 2012, 01:21:22 AM »

Offline Astreja

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #142 on: March 23, 2012, 01:22:27 AM »
Why don't you read those full scripture versus in context...?  OT is clarified to mean, sons of the Most High. Meaning they are GODS children.

I am reading in context, ILY.  "The Most High" is probably the god El -- Yahweh's dad.  At their roots, both Judaism and Christianity are based on Mesopotamian and Eastern Mediterranean polytheism.

Studies have shown that theists consider evidence against their beliefs to be validation of their beliefs. Their sense of logic and reason has been torn asunder by a childhood of magical belief indoctrination.

I haven't previously come across those studies, Joe, but anecdotally I've seen the phenomenon dozens of times on several fora.  It's like listening to a hard drive thrash and wondering if and when it's going to fail.  I'd hazard a guess that the believer is in a state of high cognitive dissonance:

  • Wanting to share their beliefs in a hostile environment, simultaneously angry at the disrespect accorded their god but also desirous of approval and agreement from the forum members;
  • Professing love for the correspondents in the discussion, yet not respecting their unique life experiences and the radically different conclusions they drew from them;
  • Vacillating between subjectivity and objectivity:  Professing faith one moment, then attempting to establish something as "truth" by playing fast and loose with science and history.

All I know is this:  I don't ever want to end up like that.
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #143 on: March 23, 2012, 01:23:58 AM »
OT is clarified to mean, sons of the Most High. Meaning they are GODS children.

God has multiple children?

I take it that means John 3:16, where it refers to Jesus as "god's only begotten son", is wrong.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #144 on: March 23, 2012, 01:29:52 AM »
I am reading in context, ILY.  "The Most High" is probably the god El -- Yahweh's dad.  At their roots, both Judaism and Christianity are based on Mesopotamian and Eastern Mediterranean polytheism.

Are you kidding me..? Your not serious, right...? It amazes me the hoops people will jump through.