Author Topic: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?  (Read 6882 times)

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Offline kymer

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #87 on: March 20, 2012, 06:37:42 PM »
ILOVEYOU...

Hi. I don't mind if you preach to people. If I was a christian I'm sure I'd feel the need to shout it out to everyone and there's nothing wrong with that. You just have to be careful sometimes because some people don't appreciate it, that's all. If you want to preach to me you're welcome to. But I have a very good reason to not believe that JC (at least the biblical Jesus) didn't even exist. I'm happy to go into detail if you want. When I read what I read about Jesus it took me about a day to come to terms with it. It wasn't nice but I couldn't argue with what I read. If you're prepared to have your beliefs challenged, that would show a lot of strength of character. And even if there wasn't a JC, don't worry about it. You believe in god, you have morals, and to me that's all good in the hood.

Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #88 on: March 20, 2012, 07:11:34 PM »
ILOVEYOU...
<snip>
Hi. I don't mind if you preach to people.
But everyone else does, and it's also against forum rules, Kymer. It would be great if you didn't encourage such foolishness.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline kymer

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #89 on: March 20, 2012, 07:20:06 PM »

But everyone else does, and it's also against forum rules, Kymer. It would be great if you didn't encourage such foolishness.

But what constitutes preaching? How can a christian talk about their beliefs without being considered to be preaching? Sooner or later someone is going to ask them to prove that god exists or that the bible is true. How can they respond without "preaching"? It's impossible. I say let's just let them talk about what they believe.

Offline Omen

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #90 on: March 20, 2012, 07:28:38 PM »
But what constitutes preaching?

Mindless listing of tenants of your belief without reasonably arguing for your beliefs.  No one cares about the stupid shit you believe, just why.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline kymer

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #91 on: March 20, 2012, 07:44:42 PM »
Anyway I'm happy to hear what they have to say.

Offline Historicity

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #92 on: March 20, 2012, 08:01:24 PM »
Mindless listing of tenants of your belief without reasonably arguing for your beliefs.  No one cares about the stupid shit you believe, just why.

Quote
Tenant
Tenant Ten"ant, n. [F. tenant, p. pr. of tenir to hold. See  Tenable, and cf. Lieutenant.]

 1. (Law) One who holds or possesses lands, or other real  estate, by any kind of right, whether in fee simple, in  common, in severalty, for life, for years, or at will;  also, one who has the occupation or temporary possession  of lands or tenements the title of which is in another; --  correlative to landlord. See Citation from --Blackstone,  under Tenement, 2. --Blount. Wharton.
 [1913 Webster]

 2. One who has possession of any place; a dweller; an  occupant. "Sweet tenants of this grove." --Cowper.
 [1913 Webster]

Quote
Tenet
Tenet Ten"et, n. [L. tenet he holds, fr. tenere to hold. See  Tenable.]

 Any opinion, principle, dogma, belief, or doctrine, which a  person holds or maintains as true; as, the tenets of Plato or
 of Cicero.
 [1913 Webster]

 That al animals of the land are in their kind in the  sea, . . . is a tenet very questionable. --Sir T.  Browne.
 [1913 Webster]

 The religious tenets of his family he had early renounced with contempt. --Macaulay.
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(Linux has a free Webster's dictionary as an app.  It also gives a modern difference as a following contrast.)

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #93 on: March 21, 2012, 12:47:22 AM »
Jesus Christ fulfilled the law. 

What the flip does it mean to "fulfill the law"?

It meant that He upheld the law completely.

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #94 on: March 21, 2012, 12:52:43 AM »
ILY,

Jesus Christ fulfilled the law. And clarified of what is of more importance.
<snip>

How does this post answer any points put to you?  You have simply regurgitated a collection of unsupported claims and beliefs.  How is this not preaching?  You should know by now what preaching is and that it is against the rules.  So, what's the deal?


I'm simply answering the questions.

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #95 on: March 21, 2012, 01:18:47 AM »
ILOVEYOU...

Hi. I don't mind if you preach to people. If I was a christian I'm sure I'd feel the need to shout it out to everyone and there's nothing wrong with that. You just have to be careful sometimes because some people don't appreciate it, that's all. If you want to preach to me you're welcome to. But I have a very good reason to not believe that JC (at least the biblical Jesus) didn't even exist. I'm happy to go into detail if you want. When I read what I read about Jesus it took me about a day to come to terms with it. It wasn't nice but I couldn't argue with what I read. If you're prepared to have your beliefs challenged, that would show a lot of strength of character. And even if there wasn't a JC, don't worry about it. You believe in god, you have morals, and to me that's all good in the hood.

I appreciate your response and thank you. I trust in GOD, for He is the author and perfecter of my faith.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #96 on: March 21, 2012, 08:43:48 AM »
How does this post answer any points put to you?  You have simply regurgitated a collection of unsupported claims and beliefs.  How is this not preaching?  You should know by now what preaching is and that it is against the rules.  So, what's the deal?


I'm simply answering the questions.

I beg to differ.  First of all, I do not see how that post answered any questions.  Secondly, your post was a string of unsupported beliefs.  You may say that you believe whatever.  But you should follow up with reasons for those beliefs. Do you understand the difference?
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Offline kymer

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #97 on: March 21, 2012, 09:05:02 AM »

I appreciate your response and thank you. I trust in GOD, for He is the author and perfecter of my faith.

Fair enough. Do you want to know what I found out about Jesus that made me stop believing he existed?

Offline velkyn

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #98 on: March 21, 2012, 09:05:48 AM »
Anyway I'm happy to hear what they have to say.

then go to a theist board.   Again, it seems that you are indeed a theist and still lying. 
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Offline kymer

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #99 on: March 21, 2012, 09:10:49 AM »

then go to a theist board.   Again, it seems that you are indeed a theist and still lying.

No, I just want to hear what they have to say. I'm going to sue you for defamation.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #100 on: March 21, 2012, 09:14:04 AM »
No, I just want to hear what they have to say. I'm going to sue you for defamation.

I really am not impressed by anything said by a troll and a liar. 
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Offline kymer

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #101 on: March 21, 2012, 09:14:36 AM »
I really am not impressed by anything said by a troll and a liar.

Go away.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #102 on: March 21, 2012, 09:18:51 AM »
I'm simply answering the questions.

You may think so, perhaps - but you are not.  This is what I asked:

Would you please list here the commandements that are still valid, so I know which ones I should follow?  I would also be grateful if you would let me know exactly what form the knowledge of god will take, once I have followed those commandments.  It would also be handy to know for how long I will need to follow them, before that knowledge will come to me.

Your post did not answer any part of that.  Unfortunately for my eternal soul, that means that I don't know exactly what I should be doing.....or how I will know when I "get it right".  You - apparently - have the answers to both those questions.  But for whatever reason, you don't seem to wish to pass that information on, clearly and precisely.

Why is that?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #103 on: March 21, 2012, 09:17:58 PM »

I appreciate your response and thank you. I trust in GOD, for He is the author and perfecter of my faith.

Fair enough. Do you want to know what I found out about Jesus that made me stop believing he existed?

I will listen to your story if you feel you want to tell me. I understand that you are a former Believer. I will leave the decision up to you whether or not you would like to say anything. Not that I am interested in challenging my faith but to be a friend to you.

Sincerely,
ILOVEYOU

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #104 on: March 21, 2012, 09:41:01 PM »
Would you please list here the commandements that are still valid, so I know which ones I should follow?  I would also be grateful if you would let me know exactly what form the knowledge of god will take, once I have followed those commandments.  It would also be handy to know for how long I will need to follow them, before that knowledge will come to me.

(Matthew 22 36:40)
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”

37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang    "all"    the Law and the Prophets.”

What form the knowledge of GOD will take...? Not understanding your question here.

How long...? Only GOD can answer this question for you.



Offline Asmoday

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #105 on: March 22, 2012, 12:26:02 AM »
ILOVEYOU, that's not really an answer to the question though. In that passage Jesus is asked about the most important commandment and he answers that question accordingly. But in no way does his answer invalidate the rest of the commandments or the laws. They are all still in effect.
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Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #106 on: March 22, 2012, 12:55:52 AM »
ILOVEYOU, that's not really an answer to the question though. In that passage Jesus is asked about the most important commandment and he answers that question accordingly. But in no way does his answer invalidate the rest of the commandments or the laws. They are all still in effect.

It is Jesus Christ whom is telling them this. our Savior, right...? They refer to Him as Teacher. He tells them that all of the laws and prophets hang on those two. And they do. So if you uphold these two, then you are satisfying what is required.

He does not invalidate them because they are still current for those under the Old Covenant. Even today.

Jesus validates this by His parable of The Good Samaritan. When questioned by an expert in The law. Whom even answered correctly when Jesus Christ asked Him what His understanding of The law was. He replied with to Love GOD with all of your heart, strength and understanding and to love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus said He answered correctly. He even gave Him an example of whom His neighbor was. No religion required.

Just an honest love for GOD to the best of your understanding and to walk in Brotherly love, merciful to your neighbor.

To forgive has GOD forgives us, to be merciful has He is merciful to us and most importantly. To love as He loves us.

And to understand this better is to know Jesus Christ. Our Savior. Jesus Christ taught the truth about GOD and love for Him. By example.

And it is by GOD through Our Savior Jesus Christ are we saved by grace.

Jesus says "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest."

Believe it and receive it. He will give you rest. Only He can give you rest. He is Our Savior, there is no other.






Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #107 on: March 22, 2012, 05:01:34 AM »

It is Jesus Christ whom is telling them this. our Savior, right...?
He's not my savior. Unlike you, it doesn't make me happy to believe that an innocent man was brutally tortured and murdered. Even if it was true, it wouldn't make him the son of God. 
Quote
They refer to Him as Teacher. He tells them that all of the laws and prophets hang on those two. And they do. So if you uphold these two, then you are satisfying what is required.
So, Jesus commandments are to be his father's obedient slaves and to love your neighbor. Only one of those has anything to do with morality, the other is a order for unconditional love for a God whose love is conditional on unending servitude. What a lovely father figure. Note that the OT doesn't have anything about loving your neighbor. In fact, a lot of the OT involves the Israelites killing, raping, and stealing from their neighbors. Even the idea of loving your neighbor as yourself is absurd, especially if your neighbor is your enemy.[1]

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He does not invalidate them because they are still current for those under the Old Covenant. Even today.
So some people are still under the old Covenant, but others are under JC's New Covenant? If there are those still under the Old Covenant, and it is still considered valid, then why the need for a new one? The old Covenant was apparently "good enough" or God would still not consider it valid (note: God broke his covenant with Job. In spite of being a devout follower who worshipped God in the appropriate ways, God accepts a bet from Satan that Job will give God even unearned praise, even if everything in his life is destroyed. Job manages to keep the Covenant, in spite of God's treachery and deceit. God breaks a covenant just for shits and giggles. Your god is an immoral, selfish asshole who can't be trusted.

Quote
Jesus validates this by His parable of The Good Samaritan. When questioned by an expert in The law. Whom even answered correctly when Jesus Christ asked Him what His understanding of The law was. He replied with to Love GOD with all of your heart, strength and understanding and to love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus said He answered correctly. He even gave Him an example of whom His neighbor was. No religion required.
This is an amazing concession that you have made here, and I am guessing that you are likely too thick to even realize it. According to you, based on this story of Jesus, Jesus himself even demonstrates that being a good person has nothing to do with religion. (although I'm admittedly a little confused as to how loving God does not equal religion, but hey, it was your (and Jesus) example, not mine). It also makes it a little difficult to reconcile stoning adulterers with "love thy neighbor". But then, we are repeatedly shown that love, to God anyways, is always connected with violence, hate and jealousy.

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Just an honest love for GOD to the best of your understanding and to walk in Brotherly love, merciful to your neighbor.
you mean like how the Catholics and Protestants in Ireland have always walked in merciful, neighborly love together? Let me guess, those aren't TrueChristianstm.

Quote
To forgive has GOD forgives us, to be merciful has He is merciful to us and most importantly. To love as He loves us.
But God hasn't forgiven us. If our sins were forgiven, it wouldn't be necessary to accept a bloody human sacrifice. Furthermore, being God, he should be able to come up with a way to demonstrate his love and forgiveness in a way that, you know, demonstrates love and forgiveness. Torture and death are not representative of that.[2]

Quote
And to understand this better is to know Jesus Christ. Our Savior. Jesus Christ taught the truth about GOD and love for Him. By example.
  Well then wouldn't it had been awesome if he had made an example of slavery? If he had said "Anyone who dares to own and treat another human being as property will be eternally subject to sodomy with a red hot serrated iron poker (and that's just on Mondays, wait till you see Tuesday's sulfuric acid spa!) Nowhere either does he say "don't rape" or "don't abuse children" or don't discriminate against people based on ethnicity, orientation, etc. You may SAY that this is all implied by "love the neighbor", but then you have a VERY difficult time explaining how the followers of God behaved in the millenia prior to Jesus and since his alleged coming. Remember, by their fruits shall ye know them. The fruits of your faith are death, slavery, and misery. And you're PROUD of it.

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And it is by GOD through Our Savior Jesus Christ are we saved by grace.
I don't need saved, thank you. And considering the complete inconsistency in the Bible as to how we can achieve salvation, I'd hardly say that it is all down to grace. What is it we are supposed to be saved from? Oh yes, I will quote myself: "An apparently innocent man is tortured and murdered as a human sacrifice to save the souls of mankind from the eternal wrath of God for something that only two people did a really wrong time ago when they had no ability to properly decide right from wrong and had been lied to and threatened by God. This human sacrifice is celebrated weekly by ritual cannibalism of the deceased." So we are all part of a sadistic and twisted game meant to cause as much suffering as possible, but God offers us "salvation" from his self constructed death machine. GOD IS THE JIGSAW KILLER!

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Jesus says "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest."
Gee, considering all of those in the world who are weary and burdened, Jesus must be busy. "Welcome to perpetual misery. Please, take a number. Ok, you're "Dehydrated, Starving African Child with HIV #87283728". Please wait forever while Jesus doesn't give a fuck."

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Believe it and receive it.
Is that some kind of lame rapist pickup line?
Quote
He will give you rest. Only He can give you rest. He is Our Savior, there is no other.
God will give me rest? Then why have I been typing this since like 5 am due to not being able to get back to sleep? Has God granted rest to his fanatical followers in the middle east?

All you are basically saying is that it is true, because Jesus said it in the Bible, and the Bible says that the Bible is true. PLEASE do yourself a favor and learn about Circular Reasoning and Special Pleading. It might spare you some embarrassment.
 1. Israel and Palestine: neighbors, but not much neighborly love is there?
 2.  At least not to rational people.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #108 on: March 22, 2012, 06:04:39 AM »
Would you please list here the commandements that are still valid, so I know which ones I should follow?  I would also be grateful if you would let me know exactly what form the knowledge of god will take, once I have followed those commandments.  It would also be handy to know for how long I will need to follow them, before that knowledge will come to me.

(Matthew 22 36:40)
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”

37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart.......

Ah.  See, this is where we have a problem, and where your original question - "what would you do if you knew....." is so deeply flawed.

Christ's answer in Matthew was fine for the people he was talking to - for the believer.  But for the unbeliever, it doesn't work in any way, shape, or form.  I don't believe there IS a god - so to "love him with all my heart" is completely impossible for me.

Which means that "knowing there is a god that loves you" can NOT follow from observing this commandment, because the commandment is impossible for the unbeliever to follow - though, as I say, being a quite reasonable answer for those who have belief.

But here's the problem: your original statement asked what I would do if I KNEW there was a god who "loved me more than I thought possible".  Not only have your subsequent statements failed to address how this knowledge can be gained, but also raise grave concerns as to how real the "love" part of it all is.

Belief cannot be forced, cannot be willed into existence - certainly not to the extent where belief is as good as "knowing" (which is what your statements suggest is how strong this belief would be). 

And that of course leads me to wonder how much "love" there really is from your god towards me, when the ability to follow what you confirm is the most important commandment is one that I physically am unable to follow?  Presumably, if I don'f follow the most important commandment, I will be in for some tough times in the afterlife......so how "loving" is it to make salvation conditional on something that is not under my control?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline gonegolfing

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #109 on: March 22, 2012, 08:35:17 AM »



Quote
I will listen to your story if you feel you want to tell me. I understand that you are a former Believer. I will leave the decision up to you whether or not you would like to say anything. Not that I am interested in challenging my faith but to be a friend to you.

Sincerely,
ILOVEYOU


As you're well aware ILY, your lunch has been eaten and the drinking of your shake is almost complete. If you're not here to have your faith challenged, or to use the common sense and reason you've observed here to challenge faith yourself, then why continue ?

Why not just go somewhere else and find an easy mind that you can challenge and see become enslaved ? Isn't it obvious here that no one is accepting your opinions ? Isn't it obvious that rational and clear thinking are the standard here, and so such ridiculous opinions and arguments such as yours are an exersize in futility on your part to state them ?

Come on man, get serious......If you're any kind of a sharp theist, then by now you would recognize that to labour in a place like this is to be guilty of wasting labour. God wouldn't like that would he ?  ;) .......Isn't it time to shake the dust off your sandals ?

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not at all suggesting you leave, but I do want to suggest that it's time you start listening and to shift gears into neutral and let the good information that your hearing sink in and that you contemplate it with all seriousness.

Or are you like most others who are simply too afraid to do so ?

Remember, you came here to our turf so to speak. And you've come obviously with the wrong motives. It's time to respect the fact of where you are and learn about what makes us tick.

Really man, it's time to buck up and get serious about your approach here and stop your preaching or you really would be better off taking your opinions elsewhere.

Cheers
"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism"....Penn Jillette.

Offline Omen

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #110 on: March 22, 2012, 09:57:22 AM »
ILOVEYOU, that's not really an answer to the question though. In that passage Jesus is asked about the most important commandment and he answers that question accordingly. But in no way does his answer invalidate the rest of the commandments or the laws. They are all still in effect.

It is Jesus Christ whom is telling them this. our Savior, right...?

Non-sequitur, the logic doesn't follow from A to B to C.  You're simply declaring arbitrary authority in something else, that offers no more reason to be believed then you do.  Your just repeating a line of indoctrinating rhetoric that has no semblance of coherence or internal consistency.  We are not indoctrinated and the burden is upon you to explain why one would even come to the conclusions that you make.  You are effectively claiming yourself to be god, speaking for a god, and relying on nothing more than your own delusional assumed authority.  You can't even offer the meaningful coherent reasons to reach the conclusions you do claim, you just spew them out.  Any moron can list the crazy crap they believe, that doesn't tell anyone why they believe it.

Again, I return to the original question that undermines all claims that you make:

How can you claim to know ANYTHING when you disregard through equivocation and sophistry the only available means to attain 'knowledge'?

Why are your religions claims rehearsed to others with such open dishonesty?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 10:03:03 AM by Omen »
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Offline Asmoday

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #111 on: March 22, 2012, 10:14:46 AM »
Quote from: ILOVEYOU link=topic=21807.m[sup
[/sup]sg489145#msg489145 date=1332395752]

It is Jesus Christ whom is telling them this. our Savior, right...? They refer to Him as Teacher. He tells them that all of the laws and prophets hang on those two. And they do. So if you uphold these two, then you are satisfying what is required.

He does not invalidate them because they are still current for those under the Old Covenant. Even today.
I will have to disagree with you here.

Jesus is asked about the most important commandments and he names two. But he does not say just to follow those two would be in any way enough. What he says is that the rest of the law should be seen in light of these two commandments.
That is a very important difference.

It's like if a politician would ask which amendment is the most important one and the head of the federal court tells him that the first amendment is the most important amendment and all others should be seen in light of that one. That does not mean he'd be doing ok if he'd just follow the first amendment and wouldn't care about the rest. He'd still have to keep them all when trying to make new laws.

I would also like to mention that not only does Jesus say that until heaven and earth pass away, not one bit of the law is to be changed or deemed unnecessary, he goes even furthers and says that to make it to heaven you (the Christian) need to be as righteous as the Pharisees of the temple. And as with Pharisees, the only way to obtain such righteousness is to follow all of the laws down to the last letter.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #112 on: March 22, 2012, 10:25:39 AM »
It is Jesus Christ whom is telling them this. our Savior, right...? They refer to Him as Teacher. He tells them that all of the laws and prophets hang on those two. And they do. So if you uphold these two, then you are satisfying what is required.
great pharisee argument you have there, ILY. 

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Offline kymer

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #113 on: March 22, 2012, 11:31:58 AM »
Why is everyone picking on ILY? Do you talk to people like this face to face?

Offline Omen

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #114 on: March 22, 2012, 11:45:56 AM »
Why is everyone picking on ILY? Do you talk to people like this face to face?

Asking someone to be accountable for their claims is not picking on someone.  Yes, I would behave this way to anyone who treated me as ILY has treated us.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #115 on: March 22, 2012, 05:40:11 PM »
I am really starting to miss some of the old theists we had on these boards :'(
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