Author Topic: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?  (Read 5417 times)

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Offline Aaron123

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Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« on: March 13, 2012, 02:29:17 PM »
Something I thought about when reading ILOVEYOU posts in the "what is the best way..." topic.  He said:

Quote
When GOD answers prayer, you know. And I don't mean the ones that keep you guessing, like how some of you mock prayer with a jug of milk.
I mean the personal ones. The ones that leave no room for doubt. Like if I pray for a new job and in the same day get three or four
job offers. This is just a scenario. Or if my plumbing goes out and the same day a neighbor comes by and fixes it for free. Many things.
But you guys are so hung up on why GOD "doesn't" heal amputees......

These two scenarios are presented as examples of prayers that god has fulfilled, or at least is willing to.  However, wouldn't such prayers interfere with free will?  In the first example, the HR person, instead of thinking for him/herself which person is best suited for the job, god somehows compells that person to decide differently.  I'm not sure how.  Mind control?  Subtle sugguestions?  At any rate, for this to be an "answered prayer", it would have to mean that this person would not have hired you of their own free will.

Likewise, for the prayer to be "answered" in the second example, the neighbor would have to not be willing to fix your plumbing of their own free will.  Again I wonder, how does god answer these prayers?  Mind control?  Subliminal messages?  Wouldn't this mean that god is knowingly and willingly violating their free will?


If these are the types of prayers god is willing to answer, then why place the concept of free will on a pedestal?
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Offline Dante

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2012, 02:34:04 PM »
What are you trying to say? Xians haven't thought their god concepts completely through? Heresy, I say!
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Nick

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2012, 02:36:34 PM »
It does get tricky when you start to dig into it.  Better to have faith and follow blindly. ;)
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline velkyn

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2012, 02:40:31 PM »
answered prayers would interfere with free will since a prayer is asking God to force some decision on someone.  Same with any "miracles".  As soon as god interferes, any idea of "free will" is gone. 
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Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2012, 02:48:04 PM »
Xians have this concept of something called the Holy Spirit which supposedly enters into Xians from time to time, giving them good judgement, or the abilty to act as Yahweh's scribe, the ability to speak in tongues or cure rattlesnake bites, or the ability to murder in Yahweh's name.

I think the xian would say the Holy Spirit caused those people to get job offers.  On a superficial level, this would resolve the paradox involving free will.  (On the level of thinking about the way things actually function, no.)

IMO, it's still classic inconsistent self-serving xian metaphysics, but I also know xians put a lot of stock in this holy spirit business.  Xias ultimately believe in magic, and magic can resolve a lot of paradoxes. 






« Last Edit: March 13, 2012, 04:01:12 PM by flapdoodle64 »

Offline Backspace

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2012, 04:03:24 PM »
How many times did Yahweh interfere with Pharaoh's free will in Exodus to favor the outcome of Moses and the Hebrews?

Free will when convenient, God's will when it's not.
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2012, 07:18:42 PM »
answered prayers would interfere with free will since a prayer is asking God to force some decision on someone.  Same with any "miracles".  As soon as god interferes, any idea of "free will" is gone.

If God exists and he interferes, humans have no free will because we must admit that we have no idea what decisions we make versus what decisions God makes for us.  There is no reliable way to tell.
 
If God exists, but does NOT interfere, then we DO have free will, but it also means that he has no master plan for us all. 

Does that break down someplace that I can't see at the moment? 

Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2012, 07:25:54 PM »
Jeff,

I think it breaks down because it doesn't allow for the fact that God knows His creation very well, and can therefore accurately foresee things, and do things accordingly.

I've discussed this a little in the debate thread if you wanted to have a look.
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2012, 07:46:50 PM »
Jeff,

I think it breaks down because it doesn't allow for the fact that God knows His creation very well, and can therefore accurately foresee things, and do things accordingly.

I've discussed this a little in the debate thread if you wanted to have a look.

Edit: Hit post too fast and had nothing written down yet...

So when the Pharaoh wanted to do the right thing, god couldn't have that and he did things accordingly?

And when a guy wants to kidnap, rape and murder a child, god does things accordingly.

Got it.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2012, 07:49:18 PM by ParkingPlaces »
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2012, 07:57:32 PM »
Jeff,

I think it breaks down because it doesn't allow for the fact that God knows His creation very well, and can therefore accurately foresee things, and do things accordingly.

I've discussed this a little in the debate thread if you wanted to have a look.

Edit: Hit post too fast and had nothing written down yet...

So when the Pharaoh wanted to do the right thing, god couldn't have that and he did things accordingly?

And when a guy wants to kidnap, rape and murder a child, god does things accordingly.

Got it.

The Pharaoh thing is a strange one, I'll give you that. If I was making up lies about a God I doubt I'd include it, actually.

And I am myself still grappling with exactly how much detail God might have in respect of what mis-deeds we might commit. Again, I discuss it in the debate thread.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2012, 10:23:47 PM »

The Pharaoh thing is a strange one, I'll give you that. If I was making up lies about a God I doubt I'd include it, actually.


*slaps forehead*

That explains everything else that's wrong with the Bible.
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2012, 10:34:47 PM »
Jeff,

I think it breaks down because it doesn't allow for the fact that God knows His creation very well, and can therefore accurately foresee things, and do things accordingly.


A.  What does knowing his creation have to do with it? 

B. If, as you say, God foresees things and acts accordingly, then by definition, we have no free will.  By taking action in any situation, God is eliminating our free will, is he not?  After all, that's what free will is... The ability to do what we want, when we want to, in any and all situations.  By acting upon our situations, God is taking away our free will and making us do what he wants us to do.  And since you can not distinguish between actions that you freely take, and ones that God makes you do, it could be said that everything you do is determined by God. 

I believe my point still stands, mm, but I would like others to weigh in voice their opinions about whether I'm right or wrong about it. 

I've discussed this a little in the debate thread if you wanted to have a look.

Please link it to me if you'd be so kind. 

Also, MM, do you believe in both free will and God's master plan for your life? 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2012, 10:51:23 PM »
Here's the link to the free will debate Elliot and I commenced:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,21700.0.html

As for the inter-play between free will and God's plans....thats a matter I am currently giving a lot of thought to, so I'll continue to do that and share more as I come to conclusions.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2012, 04:38:31 AM »
.....wouldn't such prayers interfere with free will?  In the first example, the HR person, instead of thinking for him/herself which person is best suited for the job, god somehows compells that person to decide differently.  I'm not sure how.  Mind control?  Subtle sugguestions?  At any rate, for this to be an "answered prayer", it would have to mean that this person would not have hired you of their own free will.

Not just a case of overriding the free will of the persons in question.  It also negates their faith by giving them positive proof of the existence of their god.  For Yahweh to answer any prayers, ever, makes a mockery of two significant cornerstones of the whole religion.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline velkyn

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2012, 09:20:41 AM »
The Pharaoh thing is a strange one, I'll give you that. If I was making up lies about a God I doubt I'd include it, actually.

And I am myself still grappling with exactly how much detail God might have in respect of what mis-deeds we might commit. Again, I discuss it in the debate thread.

The actions of God in Exodus are quite consistent with how this god is portrayed by the OT and in the NT.  There is no evidence whatsoever that this god ever allows free will or finds it important.  Many modern Christians have had to add that to their theology to excuse their god’s evident non-existence.   I do enjoy watching Christians trying to claim that their god wants free will when other Christians claim that their god is constantly interfering.
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Offline plethora

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2012, 05:56:18 AM »
An omniscient being would, by definition, have no free will of its own ... much less be able to grant free will to its creation.

It knows in advance what it will do. There's no way to change that. It sees all of time and all of existence at once as a static, unchanging thing.

If this being created us (humans), then the actions of its creation are predetermined and unchangeable as the creator itself has no free will and already knows what his creation will do in advance.

So, whether it is answering a prayer or not ...  neither it, nor its creation, have free will.
The truth doesn't give a shit about our feelings.

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2012, 06:26:49 AM »
I disagree with your idea that omniscience limits free will. I think you have it backwards, putting the cart before the horse so to speak. Having forknowledge of your choices does not mean they are not still your choices. The choice is still yours to make, the only difference is you already knew you would make it.

If you decide in the afternoon that you're going to have pizza for dinner, the resulting knowledge of the future does not negate the fact that you have made the choice. Knowing that you are eating pizza tonight does not take away your free will, since the knowledge followed the choice, it did not preceed it, despite preceeding the actual eating of the pizza.

The difference is that instead of making choices one by one as time reveals our options, (as we do), God with his knowledge of the future simply makes every choice he will ever make simultaneously. God's knowledge of his actions follows his choices, it does not preceed them, therefore omniscience does not affect free will.


"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline plethora

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2012, 07:08:07 AM »
^^^ I see what your saying and it's a good point ... although if one claims that said god is eternal and never actually began to exist, then there was no particular point in which it ever actually made all of its choices ... its choices would never have been 'made' as they would simply have always existed... and these choices would be eternally unchangeable.

There's a bigger point to be made about making choices. I don't deny that people (i.e. agents) can make choices ... but then computers also have the capability of making choices and we don't consider them to have "free will". They act according to their programming. My argument against the existence of free will in general is that our choices are a result of our brain configuration, which we had no hand in. We act according to our programming. Our desires and preferences are imposed on us by circumstance... and god would be no exception to this.

The claim is that god is eternal and was not created or caused by anything. So it has always been the way it is and always will be. This means that its "nature" (its character, will, desires and preferences) were not chosen by it but rather imposed on it by the nature of its very existence. As it had no hand in choosing its nature and its choices are based on this, it does not have free will. It has will ... but it's not free.
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2012, 07:57:55 AM »
^^^ I see what your saying and it's a good point ... although if one claims that said god is eternal and never actually began to exist, then there was no particular point in which it ever actually made all of its choices ... its choices would never have been 'made' as they would simply have always existed... and these choices would be eternally unchangeable.

We tend to view time as a line having a beginning and end, as we ourselves do. God does not follow the same rules we do. He made the rules.

There's a bigger point to be made about making choices. I don't deny that people (i.e. agents) can make choices ... but then computers also have the capability of making choices and we don't consider them to have "free will". They act according to their programming. My argument against the existence of free will in general is that our choices are a result of our brain configuration, which we had no hand in. We act according to our programming. Our desires and preferences are imposed on us by circumstance... and god would be no exception to this.
Computers act according to their programming. The programmer, on the other hand, is not subject to the same rules. Human behavior is dictated by hormones or genetic predispositions or environmental factors. God does not have hormones or genes and he is not subject to environmental factors, since he already knows what is going to happen and has already decided how to respond to it.

God has entered IDKFA, IDDQD, and IDSPISPOPD, while the rest of us do not even have keyboards.

The claim is that god is eternal and was not created or caused by anything. So it has always been the way it is and always will be. This means that its "nature" (its character, will, desires and preferences) were not chosen by it but rather imposed on it by the nature of its very existence. As it had no hand in choosing its nature and its choices are based on this, it does not have free will. It has will ... but it's not free.

God is a being of pure goodness and justice. You could say that his will is focused, which narrows down his choices to only those which are good and just. God is good, and therefore would not choose to be evil. Hence, any choices God makes are made of his own free will, as given the choice, he would not have chosen differently.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2012, 08:18:25 AM »
I disagree with your idea that omniscience limits free will. I think you have it backwards, putting the cart before the horse so to speak. Having forknowledge of your choices does not mean they are not still your choices. The choice is still yours to make, the only difference is you already knew you would make it.

If you decide in the afternoon that you're going to have pizza for dinner, the resulting knowledge of the future does not negate the fact that you have made the choice. Knowing that you are eating pizza tonight does not take away your free will, since the knowledge followed the choice, it did not preceed it, despite preceeding the actual eating of the pizza.

The difference is that instead of making choices one by one as time reveals our options, (as we do), God with his knowledge of the future simply makes every choice he will ever make simultaneously. God's knowledge of his actions follows his choices, it does not preceed them, therefore omniscience does not affect free will.

But isn't the point that god's omniscience limits our free will?  Once he knows what choice I will make tonight for dinner (by "looking" at me, today, at 18:00 and seeing me eat pizza), does that not mean that while I sit here musing at 13:00 what decision I will make, the ONLY "decision" I can come to is pizza? 

Sure - I may go through all the processes of thinking and feel like I decided - but if I HAD to decide on pizza, in what way did I ever have a "choice" in the matter?

In a linear timeframe where the future is hidden, I can understand there being choice (though I don't believe it) - but once some being knows what the future will be, where does choice go to?  Can you make a "choice" if the outcome has already been determined?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2012, 08:58:40 AM »
Your actions are known by God before you make them, that does not mean that they are determined by God. I know what movie my daughter is going to watch before she does, but that doesn't mean I didn't let her make the decision by herself.
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Offline Petey

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2012, 09:09:18 AM »
God is a being of pure goodness and justice. You could say that his will is focused, which narrows down his choices to only those which are good and just. God is good, and therefore would not choose to be evil. Hence, any choices God makes are made of his own free will, as given the choice, he would not have chosen differently.

Orly?

Let's go back a little ways then.  Before humans, before this little rock that we stand on, and before this physical reality even existed.  Back when it was just god and...nothing else.  So this being of "pure goodness and justice" exists, and that's it.  No angels, no "devil", not even heaven...just god.  Then this god begins creating things.

So let me just ask one question.  If nothing but goodness and justice existed, where did evil and injustice come from?

Obviously this god character couldn't have created them, since he is pure goodness and justice.  According to you, there cannot be one iota of evil or injustice within or about it.  But I'm having trouble thinking of any other way for them to exist.  Surely no other entity created them, as no other entity existed.  Not to mention that something else creating something would pretty much nullify god's omnipotence, and possibly omniscience as well.

The only other option I can think of is that evil and injustice existed of their own accord, outside of god.  But then again we're back to god not being omnipotent (and certainly not omnipresent), with the added problem of there being entities or ideas or states of existence that exist outside of god and that he obviously can't get rid of.

Free will does nothing to solve this problem, as it still brings us back to the same question.  A created being with free will could only choose evil or injustice if those options already existed.  If said being created those options, well...we've already covered that.

So again I ask, If nothing but goodness and justice existed, where did evil and injustice come from?
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Offline Petey

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2012, 09:20:05 AM »
Your actions are known by God before you make them, that does not mean that they are determined by God. I know what movie my daughter is going to watch before she does, but that doesn't mean I didn't let her make the decision by herself.

You're confusing "know" with "pretty sure".  You are pretty sure what movie your daughter is going to watch, but there is always the possibility that she may choose to watch something that you didn't predict, or do something else entirely unrelated to movie watching.  If you truly knew what she was going to watch, then she would have absolutely no choice in the matter.  If an entity knows something about future events, then no other course is possible.  If it were, they would not know, they would be pretty sure.

When it comes to events that have yet to occur, Knowing = determining.
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Offline plethora

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2012, 09:21:07 AM »
joebbowers, I assume you are speaking of god and his properties as if he actually existed only for the sake of this conversation and not because you actually believe he exists. Just making sure that's what we're doing 'cause that's what I'm going to do as well ...

^^^ I see what your saying and it's a good point ... although if one claims that said god is eternal and never actually began to exist, then there was no particular point in which it ever actually made all of its choices ... its choices would never have been 'made' as they would simply have always existed... and these choices would be eternally unchangeable.

We tend to view time as a line having a beginning and end, as we ourselves do. God does not follow the same rules we do. He made the rules.

He had to exist in order to make the rules. The default is that he always exists, regardless of time, space or anything else. He also exists with certain default properties (omniscience, omnipotence, omnibenevolence and a "just" nature). So even though he makes the rules, he did not have a hand in his existence or his properties which determine his character, nature, preferences and desires... which he uses to determine the rules he makes!

The point I made takes perfectly well into consideration that time doesn't apply to god as a line with a beginning or an end. I stated clearly that he would have never actually begun to exist (the default is he always exists) and that he would view time as a whole simultaneously.

Since he never began to exist and he didn't choose his nature or properties ... then his choices never began either and simply always existed as they are, unchangeable.

Computers act according to their programming. The programmer, on the other hand, is not subject to the same rules. Human behavior is dictated by hormones or genetic predispositions or environmental factors. God does not have hormones or genes and he is not subject to environmental factors, since he already knows what is going to happen and has already decided how to respond to it.

Hormones and genetic predispositions are our programming. Environmental factors are the external inputs (i.e. keyboard, mouse). It's the same thing.

God's decisions are based on his nature. His nature is contingent on his properties and he had no hand in giving himself these properties. Hence, he has no free will.

Quote
God has entered IDKFA, IDDQD, and IDSPISPOPD, while the rest of us do not even have keyboards.

But he was compelled by his nature to do so ... a nature he did not choose.

Quote
God is a being of pure goodness and justice.

... and yet evil exists as a result of what he created knowing full well that his creation would result in the existence of evil. Sorry but this claim does not hold any water.

Quote
You could say that his will is focused, which narrows down his choices to only those which are good and just. God is good, and therefore would not choose to be evil. Hence, any choices God makes are made of his own free will, as given the choice, he would not have chosen differently.

Okay ... so now god is limited in his choices (goodbye omnipotence) ... but like I said, his choices are contingent on his nature which he did not choose and his choices are fixed and unchangeable. There's just no room for free will in this scenario.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 09:26:41 AM by plethora »
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Offline gonegolfing

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2012, 11:29:13 AM »
Your actions are known by God before you make them, that does not mean that they are determined by God. I know what movie my daughter is going to watch before she does, but that doesn't mean I didn't let her make the decision by herself.


God ? What god ? Has a god been proved to exist ? Please point me to the hard tangible evidence.


The term "free will" is only a religious one, and it was used to introduce the concept of "sin".
Free will as you'd like it to exist...does not.

We're victims of our brain physiology. Yes, decisions and reasoning have a direct effect on our actions, but it's a fact that the decisions we make are a part of a series of causes that have happened well ahead of our awareness and in the subconscious which of course we have no control over.

In his book "Free Will" S. Harris has written recently on this and says: "My choices matter--and there are paths to making wiser ones--but I cannot choose what I choose.......I do not choose to choose what I choose".

This is why we see so many humans who struggle to self-correct this dilemma that we must face and end up choosing immoral or harmful actions. It's a battle, but it's one that can be won when an individual works hard at it and understands that free will is a myth and that we are not "actually" in "total" control of our minds and live in part at the mercy of our biology. If I'm going to continue to be a rational person, then I'll have to keep digging in deeper to causes of my thoughts and try to work harder at protecting my mind from unnecessary thoughts that arise out of the subconscious that may have a negative effect on my decisions and actions in the real world.


As far as the OP is concerned--you would need a willing god to have divinely answered prayers, and so since we have zero evidence of the existence of either, whats the point in hypothetically discussing it ?

Whether a god exists or not, reality shows us that we have evolved in a way that there is no such thing as "free will".

 
"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism"....Penn Jillette.

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2012, 11:49:18 AM »
He had to exist in order to make the rules. The default is that he always exists, regardless of time, space or anything else. The point I made takes perfectly well into consideration that time doesn't apply to god as a line with a beginning or an end. I stated clearly that he would have never actually begun to exist (the default is he always exists) and that he would view time as a whole simultaneously.

In the beginning, there was God. Perhaps God has not always existed, but was the first thing to ever be created. He was created at the beginning of existance, which would mean that at the moment of his creation, he saw the infinite future and made every choice he would ever make in that instant.

He also exists with certain default properties (omniscience, omnipotence, omnibenevolence and a "just" nature). So even though he makes the rules, he did not have a hand in his existence or his properties which determine his character, nature, preferences and desires... which he uses to determine the rules he makes!

Since he never began to exist and he didn't choose his nature or properties ... then his choices never began either and simply always existed as they are, unchangeable.

God's decisions are based on his nature. His nature is contingent on his properties and he had no hand in giving himself these properties. Hence, he has no free will.

You're repeatedly making the assumption that God did not create himself. How do you know that? After all, a being of unlimited power would be perfectly capable of creating itself, otherwise it's power would not be unlimited.

Quote
God is a being of pure goodness and justice.

... and yet evil exists as a result of what he created knowing full well that his creation would result in the existence of evil. Sorry but this claim does not hold any water.

The fact that your concept of goodness and justice do not match Gods just proves that you are a sinner and that God was right to create Evil to punish sin.


Okay ... so now god is limited in his choices (goodbye omnipotence) ... but like I said, his choices are contingent on his nature which he did not choose and his choices are fixed and unchangeable. There's just no room for free will in this scenario.

Aha! But if he did create himself, and He chose to be good, and chose to limit his actions to goodness and justice, then his limits would be self-imposed, which means free will!
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2012, 11:52:40 AM »
God ? What god ? Has a god been proved to exist ? Please point me to the hard tangible evidence.

Go away muggle. You don't get the game.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2012, 05:37:12 PM »
So.... has anyone figured it out yet...?

I wished you guys really knew how much GOD really loves you all. Seriously. All of us in fact.

I have a question for you...

What if it was brought to you attention that GOD was real, w/o any doubts and that He loves you more than you ever realized...?

Would you guys please consider the question and answer honestly. Please and thank you. 




Offline One Above All

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Re: Does answered prayers interfere with free will?
« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2012, 05:40:42 PM »
So.... has anyone figured it out yet...?

I wished you guys really knew how much GOD really loves you all. Seriously. All of us in fact.

Well, that sure doesn't sound like the god of the Bible. Who is your god? Is it Shakti? Maybe Athena?

I have a question for you...

What if it was brought to you attention that GOD was real, w/o any doubts and that He loves you more than you ever realized...?

Would you guys please consider the question and answer honestly. Please and thank you. 

I have a question for you...

What if it was brought to your attention that ODIN was real, w/o any doubts and that He loves you more than you ever realized...?

Would you please consider the question and answer honestly. Please and thank you.


Think about why my question is stupid and condescending and you'll understand why I gave you a -1.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 05:42:59 PM by Lucifer »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.