Author Topic: Four periods of history that atheists are usually ignorant of  (Read 1697 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Olivianus

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
  • Darwins +2/-42
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
1. The Pre-Socratic Era of Greek Philosophy.

Basically the idea that people can grasp physical reality is buried forever as impossible.
http://olivianus.thekingsparlor.com/epistemology-and-metaphysics/the-pre-socratic-failure-to-construct-a-corporeal-reality-by-drake-shelton

2. The Eastern Orthodox Church and the Byzantine Empire. This Church has been the undergirding religion of huge empires, has no middle or dark ages and culminated in a Golden Age in Byzantium. It was overthrown by the bloodthirsty Muslims, the biggest egg the Roman papacy ever laid.




3. The Calvinist Protestant Reformation in Scotland in the 16th and 17th Century. To understand this movement you have to study before John Locke and see where he got some of his core ideas. He didn’t just dream them up. They were an out flowing of a movement before him, in the Church of Scotland with the Covenanters led by Samuel Rutherford.   

http://eternalpropositions.wordpress.com/2011/07/24/a-timeline-of-the-scottish-reformation-by-drake-shelton/

http://www.constitution.org/sr/lexrex.htm

http://olivianus.thekingsparlor.com/politics/separation-of-church-and-state-in-george-gillespie-s-aaron-s-rod-blossoming-ed-drake

4. The bloodbath that Darwin’s theory of Natural Selection turned into with the Atheist and/or Communist Massacres of the 20th Century. As a side note: I am not saying that the Nazi party was an utter atheism; it was the kind of atheism that the  Roman Catholic Hierarchy (Which was the real undergirding force of the Nazi movement) relishes in and profits greatly from. 

 http://eternalpropositions.wordpress.com/2012/01/12/the-trail-of-blood-a-short-history-of-atheist-democide/

Online One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10603
  • Darwins +266/-34
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: Four periods of history that atheists are usually ignorant of
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2012, 04:13:40 AM »
BM.
Although I'm no fan of history, this should be fun to watch.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 04:52:16 AM by Lucifer »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline sun_king

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 386
  • Darwins +25/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • We see things not as they are, but as we are
Re: Four periods of history that atheists are usually ignorant of
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2012, 04:16:43 AM »
My turn, God Delusion, by Richard Dawkins pp 272 - 278 handles the traditional Stalin/Hitler accusation.

What now? Try to refrain from posting stock videos, no one really bothers to watch.

Are you, by any chance, attempting to prove that we atheists are bad? Good luck with that. That too with a god who is one of the most genocidal in the world.

Offline jaimehlers

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4629
  • Darwins +511/-12
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Four periods of history that atheists are usually ignorant of
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2012, 07:45:22 AM »
So, naturally, you're here to "educate" the atheists about history, huh?  Which naturally means accepting your interpretation of things.  Well, first you have to actually give your interpretation of things.  In other words, start writing your own arguments instead of trying to use other people's.  Until then, I remain far from convinced that you understand the subject matter well enough to have a worthwhile discussion with - especially given your tendency to quit a topic when people don't accept your reasoning without question.

Just as a single example, you seem to have missed the fact that it is Martin Luther (Germany) and his contemporary Ulrich Zwingli (Switzerland) who actually started the Protestant Reformation.  John Calvin was eight years old when Martin Luther began writing his ninety-five theses.  I don't deny that Calvin was an integral part of the Reformation, but to act like the Protestant movements outside of Scotland somehow don't matter is silly.  And what about the Church of England, which also predated the Calvinist church?  That was again part of the Protestant movement.

Since you actually wrote the last point in your own words, I'll respond to it later when I've had the chance to read it.

Offline Tero

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 706
  • Darwins +17/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Four periods of history that atheists are usually ignorant of
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2012, 08:46:25 AM »
Blood baths follow the technology available.

Religions and other dogmatic ways of thinking follow the culture they came from.

People will always find ways to define us and them.

Offline HAL

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5007
  • Darwins +98/-17
  • Gender: Male
Re: Four periods of history that atheists are usually ignorant of
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2012, 08:52:16 AM »
How do you have knowledge of all these things when you can't even be sure that the streets are wet?

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12017
  • Darwins +622/-23
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Four periods of history that atheists are usually ignorant of
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2012, 10:05:36 AM »
1. The Pre-Socratic Era of Greek Philosophy.

Basically the idea that people can grasp physical reality is buried forever as impossible.
http://olivianus.thekingsparlor.com/epistemology-and-metaphysics/the-pre-socratic-failure-to-construct-a-corporeal-reality-by-drake-shelton

From that link:

Quote
Before the time of Thales Greek philosophy was dominated by the drunken Homeric religion of Zeus, Hades, Apollo and the pantheon of vice stricken gods and goddesses of the ancient world. Accompanying this pantheon were the mystery cults involving strange blood rituals, trances, self-flagellation, and the eating of raw flesh.

HA!

blood rituals?  “Take this, all of you, and drink from it: this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven. Do this in memory of me.”

trances? glossolalia, trances, stigmata, etc

self-flagellation? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagellation#Christianity

eating raw flesh?  “Take this, all of you, and eat it: this is my body which will be given up for you.”

It speaks so dirisively of things which are part an parcel of xianity. Curious.  It is almost as if the author were a complete idiot.
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: Four periods of history that atheists are usually ignorant of
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2012, 11:48:36 AM »
nice generalization, Oliv, but you’re mistaken as always.  It’s so funny watching theists glom on to any bit of nonsense to preserve their myths.  I have no problem in grasping physical reality at all.  I would dearly love to watch you live your life as if you didn’t think you could trust physical reality.  That would be hilarious. 

The Orthodox Church is just as full of crap as any other church.  And the Byzantine Empire was overthrown by its own stupidity, disease (plague), etc.  No magical golden age there. 

The Protestant Church is also just as full of crap as the others, more Christians sure that they and only they know what their god “really” meant.  No dear, it’s been already shown that your lies about how the protestant church is responsible for the constitution, etc are just that, lies.  Repeating them doesn’t help. 

and gee only your words for all of this nonsense, Oliv.  How “impressive”. 

And #4, what a nice little lie, Christian. 
Quote
4. The bloodbath that Darwin’s theory of Natural Selection turned into with the Atheist and/or Communist Massacres of the 20th Century. As a side note: I am not saying that the Nazi party was an utter atheism; it was the kind of atheism that the  Roman Catholic Hierarchy (Which was the real undergirding force of the Nazi movement) relishes in and profits greatly from.
I do love how you lie, Oliv.  No evidence, just false witnessing all over the place.  It’s a shame that you feel the need to do that, I do wonder about Christians who think their supposed immortal souls are worth this.  You poor thing, you can’t even figure out what atheism means, with all of your lies.  I mean, it’s hysterical that with your painfully evident ignorance of history, you think you can educate anyone else on it.  There were no “atheist” massacres.  There were massacres by people stupid enough to believe megalomaniacs.  You can even see that Hitler himself didn’t like the theory of evolution: http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2006/10/from-darwin-to-2.html 

I do love your hatred for the Roman Catholic Church.  Again, oliv, care to join me at a couple of altars so you can show how true your religion is?  Show me that we should believe you and not the RCC or the LDS or the Jehovah’s Witnesses, or Unitarians, etc.  You are a lovely example of how a Christian creates their own god based on their own hatreds and desires.  Why should I ever consider believing a Christian when I can point out ever single lie you use so easily?  You destroy your own claims by your ineptitude. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline jaimehlers

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4629
  • Darwins +511/-12
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Four periods of history that atheists are usually ignorant of
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2012, 12:05:39 PM »
Referring to: http://eternalpropositions.wordpress.com/2012/01/12/the-trail-of-blood-a-short-history-of-atheist-democide/

Olivianus wrote:  "When Darwin introduced his theories to the world as his interpretation of the Origin of Species (1859), these men supported him and found this theory quite convenient to their philosophical and political agenda."

While it's true that Marx and Engels supported Darwin's work, they did so because of the idea that it provided a natural explanation for their class struggle ideology.  Darwin received no more than an honorable mention in Das Kapital, for example.  In other words, Darwin's theory was a convenient prop for them; it was in no way an integral part of Marx's ideology.

Olivianus wrote:  "Darwin‘s theories were the biological basis for a theory of society called Social Darwinism, developed in the 1870s. This view stressed competition between individuals but it was also connected to the ideas of Eugenics, Racial Supremacy, Imperialism, Fascism, Nazism, the struggle between national or racial groups and formed the basis of Engels’ and Lenin’s Dialectical Materialism."

Darwin himself in no way espoused the ideas of Social Darwinism, which took his name for itself.  For example, in his book The Descent of Man, and Selection in Relation to Sex[1], Darwin wrote:

Quote
"We civilised men, on the other hand, do our utmost to check the process of elimination; we build asylums for the imbecile, the maimed, and the sick; we institute poor-laws; and our medical men exert their utmost skill to save the life of every one to the last moment. There is reason to believe that vaccination has preserved thousands, who from a weak constitution would formerly have succumbed to small-pox. Thus the weak members of civilised societies propagate their kind. No one who has attended to the breeding of domestic animals will doubt that this must be highly injurious to the race of man. It is surprising how soon a want of care, or care wrongly directed, leads to the degeneration of a domestic race; but excepting in the case of man himself, hardly any one is so ignorant as to allow his worst animals to breed.

The aid which we feel impelled to give to the helpless is mainly an incidental result of the instinct of sympathy, which was originally acquired as part of the social instincts, but subsequently rendered, in the manner previously indicated, more tender and more widely diffused. Nor could we check our sympathy, if so urged by hard reason, without deterioration in the noblest part of our nature. The surgeon may harden himself whilst performing an operation, for he knows that he is acting for the good of his patient; but if we were intentionally to neglect the weak and helpless, it could only be for a contingent benefit, with a certain and great present evil. Hence we must bear without complaining the undoubtedly bad effects of the weak surviving and propagating their kind; but there appears to be at least one check in steady action, namely the weaker and inferior members of society not marrying so freely as the sound; and this check might be indefinitely increased, though this is more to be hoped for than expected, by the weak in body or mind refraining from marriage."
In other words, Darwin himself said that neglecting the weak and helpless would ultimately degrade what he called our nobility, and what I call our humanity.  While it is true that he said not marrying as freely would tend to act as a check on the weak propagating themselves, it is worth noting that he in no way espoused the conclusions of natural selection applied to social phenomena.  Also, it is worth noting that Social Darwinism was used to justify more than just the ideologies you mentioned.  For example, it was primarily used to justify lassez-faire capitalism, which was and is a mainstream American ideology; those other things are offshoots, despite their notoriety today.

Olivianus wrote:  "Operating on Marx‘s and Darwin’s ideas, Lenin and his successor, Joseph Stalin massacred tens of millions though Vladamir Lenin killed only around 30, 000 people most of which were Orthodox Christians."

This is incorrect, as I showed above.  Darwin's theory was tangential to Marx's ideology and the murderous application of communism in Russia.  Darwin himself, based on his own words as quoted above, would have been horrified at the thought of his theory of natural selection being used to justify the systematic murders committed due to Stalin's actions.  If ignoring the weak and helpless would be a certain and great present evil, how much more so would be systematically killing them off in the name of an ideology?  And how much more would such actions erode one's basic humanity than simply neglecting them?

Olivianus wrote:  "In the 1946–1949 phase of the Chinese Civil War, the Chinese Communists defeated the Chinese Nationalists (Kuomintang) on the mainland and established the People’s Republic of China in Beijing on 1 October 1949 and was proclaimed such by the Atheist Mao Zedong who was highly influenced by Vladamir Lenin."

It is certainly true that Mao was influenced by Lenin, yet as I showed above, communism as practiced in Russia (and now, China) was no more an application of Darwin's theory of natural selection than a notorious poisoner would be practicing medicine.  What they were, at best, was a perversion of science for ideological ends.

Olivianus wrote:  "Atheist Fidel Castro 1926-? A.D.  is a Cuban revolutionary and politician. He was Prime Minister of Cuba from 1959 to 1976, and then President from 1976 to 2008. Along with Mao Zedong, he was highly influenced by the Marx-Leninist tradition."

As before, once again, the fact that Fidel Castro was influenced by Marx and Lenin has at most a tangential bearing on Darwin and his theory of natural selection.

Olivianus wrote:  "What is clear is that Il-sung’s Communistic Juche philosophy led to the starvation of over 3 million people. Kim Jon Ill ruled in North Korea from 1994 to his recent death in December of 2011. His regime held up to 200,000 political prisoners and his starvation politics has killed at least 2 million people in the 90s and we do not even know how many more in the 21st century."

As before, once again, the fact that Kim Jong-il and Kim Il-sung were Communist leaders has at most a tangential bearing on Darwin and his theory of natural selection.

Olivianus wrote:  "D’Souza says, “Consider Pol Pot. Who was the leader of the Khmer Rouge, the Communist Party faction that ruled Cambodia from 1975 to 1979. Within this four year period Pol Pot and his Revolutionary ideologues engaged in systematic mass relocations and killings that eliminated approximately one-fifth of the Cambodian population, an estimated 1.5 million to 2 million people..atheist regimes have in a single century murdered more than one hundred million people.”"

As before, once again, the fact that Pol Pot was a Communist leader has at most a tangential bearing on Darwin and his theory of natural selection.  Furthermore, I would argue that Lenin, Stalin, Mao Zedong, Kim Jong-il, Kim Il-sung, and Pol Pot were not representative of atheists.  They may not have espoused a belief in gods, but this was specifically to remove countervailing influences that would otherwise have eroded their power.  In other words, their goal was to replace worship of gods with the same kind of unthinking reverence for the state.  You might call it atheism and them atheists, but I call it tyranny and them tyrants.  The fact that they used atheism as an excuse for their tyranny is no more convincing than the fact that religion was used as an excuse for other tyrants.

Olivianus wrote:  "The most devastating outgrowth of the application of Darwin’s theory to Society, Eugenics, is Abortion."

The fact that people inappropriately applied Darwin's theory to social philosophy in no way saddles him or his theory with the blame for the results.  The ones who are to blame are those who felt they could use natural selection as an excuse to justify their own ideologies.

Olivianus wrote:  "Francis Galton was an Englishman who applied his half-cousin’s (Charles Darwin) biology to society. He believed that Western Civilization protected inferior species from extinction. This needed to change and a systematic elimination of inferior humans was necessary for our evolution."

Yet, as I showed above, Darwin himself in no way espoused such an action.  He stated specifically that protecting the weak and helpless, contrary to natural selection though it may be, was necessary in order to preserve the highest parts of our own human natures, and that ignoring the weak and helpless would be a certain and great present evil.  As for Galton, it is true that his ideas about eugenics had tremendous consequences, yet this serves as a good example of why using scientific theories to back ideologies is so dangerous.

Olivianus wrote:  "Atheist Margaret Sanger was an associate of Davenport and was highly influenced by his eugenics philosophy. She is the founder of Planned Parenthood where  Americans kill their unborn children today."

While it is true that Sanger was involved in the eugenics movement (which, as I have pointed out, is the misuse of a scientific theory to back an ideology), you must remember that her involvement started before WWII and Hitler's murderous attempt to exterminate the Jewish people in Europe; eugenics had not yet acquired the horrible connotations that make it largely taboo today.  Furthermore, Sanger specifically opposed the execution of "unfit progeny" and denounced the Nazi eugenics movement.  And Sanger's advocacy of family planning did not incorporate abortion at all; Sanger was opposed to abortion.  It was not until after her death that the reproductive rights movement incorporated abortion as well as contraception.  I do not deny that certain of Sanger's ideas, such as restriction of immigration, and sterilization/segregation of those with hereditary diseases and the like, were eugenics, nor do I suggest that these ideas are reasonably justified; as I stated before, eugenics itself comes from the misuse of the theory of natural selection to back an ideology.  But you are painting with far too broad a brush here.

Olivianus wrote:  "In Nazi Germany, Social Darwinism naturally evolved into racial hygiene theories by men like Fritz Lenz, Eugen Fischer and Otmar von Verschuer. Hitler believed that the racially pure were to be encouraged to reproduce while the racially un-pure were to be sterilized or killed. Abortion, birth control and forced sterilizations were suggested; thus the Holocaust."

The fact that people like Lenz, Fischer, von Verschuer, Hitler, Mengele, Nietzche, and others in Germany took "Social Darwinism" to such an extreme in no way brands the theory of natural selection with responsibility.  They were responsible for their ideologies and where they took them, not the scientific theory made by Darwin, who warned against using it to justify social ideologies.

Olivianus wrote:  "The perfection of Nazism came with the eugenic interpretation of  Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche’s doctrine of the Superman and his book The Will to Power."

Nietzsche was not an atheist, but a self-described immoralist and a nihilist, among other things.  His argument about morality was based largely on his ideas regarding master-morality and slave-morality, which you note shortly afterward.  Yet, atheism is in no way based on either of these moralities.  Atheism is simply the non-belief in gods, and it naturally rejects morality as coming from gods, yet that in no way implies that it must then take up Nietzsche's master-morality and nihilism, as that is a false dichotomy.  At best, Nietzsche's philosophy is an extreme tangent to atheism, with the only causal link being Nietzsche's statement that God was dead.

Olivianus wrote:  "Atheists have disputed  that Nietzsche’s philosophy was foundational to Hitler’s Nazism. William Shirer in his famous The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich states,"

You say that atheists have disputed Nietzsche's philosophy and its links to Nazism, yet you give no examples of atheists actually doing so, suggesting that this may be a strawman of your creation.  And your quote of William Shirer's work, in addition to being excessively lengthy (was it really necessary to quote four or five paragraphs when you only emphasized two sentences?), exhibits your tendency to utilize the words of others to try to make your argument for you.

Olivianus wrote:  "Richard Wagner was the idol and close associate of Nietzsche. Wagner was a life-long atheist yet Nietzsche accused him of converting to Christianity later in life in the year 1876."

The most this proves is that Nietzsche idolized Wagner, not that Wagner espoused any part of Nietzsche's ideology.  The fact that Nietzsche completely fell out with Wagner strongly suggests that Wagner never did espouse Nietzsche's ideology, and when Nietzsche became aware of this, his idolization of Wagner collapsed.

Olivianus wrote:  "Therefore, we can see a clear line of atheist philosophy that Hitler inherited and lived out. The attempts by atheists to make Hitler a Christian are a complete howler.  Hitler surrounded himself by fervent atheists (Goebbles, Himmler, Heydrich and Bormann) and based the foundation of his Philosophy on Darwinian and Nihilistic principles.  Germany had been an established Christian nation for centuries and he wanted to get them on his side."

Unsurprisingly, you seek to disavow Hitler as a Christian and "prove" him to be an atheist, because it supports your thesis that "atheists" are responsible for many of the atrocities of this century.  This despite the fact that you said "As a side note: I am not saying that the Nazi party was an utter atheism; it was the kind of atheism that the  Roman Catholic Hierarchy (Which was the real undergirding force of the Nazi movement) relishes in and profits greatly from."  Since the Roman Catholic Church and its hierarchy were and are in no way atheistic, that means that the Nazi movement was also in no way atheistic.  In short, this is an example of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy, where you attempt to dismiss Christians that you disapprove of as not being true Christians.

As for Hitler himself, some sources claim he was devout, while others claim he was not religious at all.  My personal view is that he had religious beliefs, but subsumed them into his ambition, using them just as he used everything else he could.  But that does not make him an atheist, anymore than it makes the Republican party of today atheists.  And your argument that Hitler followed a clear line of atheist philosophy is incoherent.  It implies that anyone who espoused Social Darwinism and any of its offshoots had to be an atheist, therefore, Hitler himself was an atheist.  Yet it ignores everything to do with Hitler himself, as if the philosophy is the man.

I will grant that Hitler, like Stalin, wanted no competing source of authority, which is certainly why he persecuted some Christian churches.  Yet this does not make him an atheist.  Christians have long persecuted other Christians who did not believe the same as them.  That Hitler did it as a matter of state policy is not particularly surprising, given his other actions.

Olivianus wrote:  "Atheists also like to point out that Hitler admired Martin Luther for his hatred of Jews. This  is misinformed. The so called book by Martin Luther – On the Jews and Their Lies, was a fraud."

You claim this, yet your only source is a quote by Eric John Phelps.  Who is he?  Furthermore, Phelps claims that Luther's essay, On the Jews and Their Lies was a fraud published after his death, yet he gives no proof of this.  Even if it were actually published after his death, that means nothing in and of itself.  Many authors have had works published after their deaths.  There must be actual proof to demonstrate that this is the case, or else it is an invalid claim.

Olivianus wrote:  "Did not Jesuit Generals Ledochowski (1915-1942) and Janssens (1946-1964), using their Society of Jesus Society in control of Roman Catholic Hitler’s Nazis and the Jewish Labor Zionists, do all these things to the pitiful Jews of Europe only sixty five years ago?"

Although this is part of your lengthy quote from Phelps's work, Vatican Assassins, it is clear that you included it because it supports your contentions of a link between the Roman Catholic "atheists" and Hitler's "atheists".  Yet, the lack of actual proof causes this claim to backfire.  Furthermore, Phelps claims here that the Jesuits are involved in some lengthy conspiracy, again without real proof to back it up.  No.  Hitler did all of the things written in Luther's essay to the Jews of Europe, less those who were lucky enough to flee or to be hidden in countries like Denmark, not some shadow Jesuit conspiracy.

Olivianus wrote:  "According to the National Right to Life Website, over 50 million unborn children have been murdered in the United States since abortion was legalized in 1973. There are over 40 million recorded abortions worldwide every year!"

Murdered?  Murder is a legal term.  But what does this have to do with the so-called blood on the hands of atheists?  Well, aside from your assertion that Planned Parenthood is about eugenics and "Social Darwinism".

Olivianus wrote:  "Now ask yourself, who really has the atrocious blood on their hands: religious people or atheists?"

First, you must prove that the atheistic non-belief in gods is responsible for these things.  You did not do so in this incoherent excuse for an essay.  Your argument is only compelling to those who take your words as a given without checking them; even a cursory review of your sources demonstrates how flimsy your argument really is.  When you have to argue that the Roman Catholic church's hierarchy is atheistic, it only proves how far you are stretching the definition of "atheistic".  And let's not forget your statement that Hitler was really being controlled by Jesuits, who are also somehow atheists.

If this is the best you can do when writing in your own words, I can see why you post walls of text formed from other people's words.  Not that this is any kind of a legitimate excuse.
 1. http://darwin-online.org.uk/content/frameset?itemID=F937.1&viewtype=text&pageseq=1, p.168-169
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 04:11:16 PM by Ambassador Pony »

Offline HAL

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5007
  • Darwins +98/-17
  • Gender: Male
Re: Four periods of history that atheists are usually ignorant of
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2012, 12:15:45 PM »
Hey Olivianus,

Doesn't WWGHA deserve a link now on your website under the Atheist section after all this?

C'mon!

http://olivianus.thekingsparlor.com/home

Online One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10603
  • Darwins +266/-34
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: Four periods of history that atheists are usually ignorant of
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2012, 12:21:14 PM »
Olivianus, does your "X was used to justify harming people therefore X is bad" logic[1] apply to other things? Religion, for example, has been used to justify the slaughter of millions, if not billions of humans.
 1. Or lack thereof...
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline sun_king

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 386
  • Darwins +25/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • We see things not as they are, but as we are
Re: Four periods of history that atheists are usually ignorant of
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2012, 12:44:24 PM »
Before Olivianus totally disowns the Nazis





Guess who wore it. I believe you can figure out what it means.

Online One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10603
  • Darwins +266/-34
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: Four periods of history that atheists are usually ignorant of
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2012, 12:53:12 PM »
As Olivianus does not speak the language that I[1] call German, I shall attempt to translate to the language that I call English.
"God with us".
 1. Remember, no induction fallacy!
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: Four periods of history that atheists are usually ignorant of
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2012, 01:13:19 PM »
huzzah for Jaimehlers for doing all of that excellent work!
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3880
  • Darwins +257/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Four periods of history that atheists are usually ignorant of
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2012, 01:13:27 PM »
So you point is...what? The an era the was dominated by pre-logic was pagan(theistic) The one church was otherthrown by another bloddier religion(Theistic) That some scholars came out of the only institutions that allowed scholars during a period that was dominated by theists. Or to call Nazi Germany atheist when they were a theistic regime?

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Olivianus

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
  • Darwins +2/-42
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Four periods of history that atheists are usually ignorant of
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2012, 02:55:40 PM »
sun_king


Quote
My turn, God Delusion, by Richard Dawkins pp 272 - 278 handles the traditional Stalin/Hitler accusation.

That's not an answer is it?

Quote
Are you, by any chance, attempting to prove that we atheists are bad? Good luck with that. That too with a god who is one of the most genocidal in the world.

Your opinion is not an argument.

Offline Olivianus

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
  • Darwins +2/-42
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Four periods of history that atheists are usually ignorant of
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2012, 02:59:11 PM »
jaimehlers

First, those links were items that i wrote, so i'm not borrowing except for the video which is absolutely fascinating.

Quote
Just as a single example, you seem to have missed the fact that it is Martin Luther (Germany) and his contemporary Ulrich Zwingli (Switzerland) who actually started the Protestant Reformation.


You are being belligerent. The Scottish reformation is a unique part of the Protestant Movement.

Quote
John Calvin was eight years old when Martin Luther began writing his ninety-five theses.  I don't deny that Calvin was an integral part of the Reformation, but to act like the Protestant movements outside of Scotland somehow don't matter is silly.


When did I say they didn't matter. The topic of this thread is periods atheists are ignorant of and you are proving the accusation true.

 And what about the Church of England, which also predated the Calvinist church?  That was again part of the Protestant movement.


Offline HAL

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5007
  • Darwins +98/-17
  • Gender: Male
Re: Four periods of history that atheists are usually ignorant of
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2012, 03:02:16 PM »
Olivianus,

Why do you believe the things you speak of historically actually happened? How do you know they did?

Offline Olivianus

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
  • Darwins +2/-42
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Four periods of history that atheists are usually ignorant of
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2012, 03:04:09 PM »
How do you have knowledge of all these things when you can't even be sure that the streets are wet?

You guys have a definition of knowledge that is different from mine so your question is equivocal.

Online One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10603
  • Darwins +266/-34
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: Four periods of history that atheists are usually ignorant of
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2012, 03:08:12 PM »
How do you have knowledge of all these things when you can't even be sure that the streets are wet?

You guys have a definition of knowledge that is different from mine so your question is equivocal.

So what you're saying is that you're arguing about things you don't know[1]. What's the point if you won't believe us? You have already dismissed any and all knowledge we may expose, as you don't trust the "induction fallacy", which is the basis for virtually all knowledge we[2] will ever gain.
 1. Read: Are ignorant of.
 2. Every sentient species in the universe.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 03:10:30 PM by Lucifer »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Olivianus

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
  • Darwins +2/-42
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Four periods of history that atheists are usually ignorant of
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2012, 03:10:21 PM »
screwtape


Quote
HA!

blood rituals?  “Take this, all of you, and drink from it: this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven. Do this in memory of me.”

I notice you left out the part where it clearly says that what is physically in the cup is wine. Only a brain slave like an atheist or roman catholic would not see he is saying that the wine represents his blood which represents his life.


Quote
trances? glossolalia, trances, stigmata, etc

self-flagellation? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagellation#Christianity


None of this stuff goes on in protestant Churches or eastern churches for that matter. Now the self flagellation thing is an aspect of anchorism that was a key doctrine that the protestant reformation removed.


Quote
eating raw flesh?  “Take this, all of you, and eat it: this is my body which will be given up for you.”

Belligerent.

Quote
It speaks so dirisively of things which are part an parcel of xianity. Curious.  It is almost as if the author were a complete idiot.

You completely ignored what was before you. typical.

Offline HAL

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5007
  • Darwins +98/-17
  • Gender: Male
Re: Four periods of history that atheists are usually ignorant of
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2012, 03:13:05 PM »
How do you have knowledge of all these things when you can't even be sure that the streets are wet?

You guys have a definition of knowledge that is different from mine so your question is equivocal.

But you didn't answer my question (again).

I ask again how do YOU know these things actually happened in history. Speak up - tell us.

How do you come to have knowledge of things in the past, such that you believe that they happened?

Offline jaimehlers

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4629
  • Darwins +511/-12
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Four periods of history that atheists are usually ignorant of
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2012, 03:18:02 PM »
jaimehlers

First, those links were items that i wrote, so i'm not borrowing except for the video which is absolutely fascinating.
Okay, I did not realize your name was Drake Shelton.  It would be a good idea to make something like that clear in advance to prevent misunderstandings.

Although, leaving aside http://www.constitution.org/sr/lexrex.htm, it does not appear that you wrote this:  http://olivianus.thekingsparlor.com/politics/separation-of-church-and-state-in-george-gillespie-s-aaron-s-rod-blossoming-ed-drake.  It does list you as editing, but it looks like all you did was emphasize certain points with bold/italics/underline (incidentally, pick one of those in general, you don't need to use all three).

Quote from: Olivianus
You are being belligerent. The Scottish reformation is a unique part of the Protestant Movement.
I was not being belligerent.  I was making a point that the Protestant Reformation was about more than just Calvin's movement in Scotland.  I didn't deny that John Calvin was important to the Reformation, as I said, but the way you stated it implied that the rest was just a sideshow.

Quote from: Olivianus
When did I say they didn't matter. The topic of this thread is periods atheists are ignorant of and you are proving the accusation true.

And what about the Church of England, which also predated the Calvinist church?  That was again part of the Protestant movement.
Calling you on the implication that the non-Calvinist parts of the Reformation weren't as important as the Calvinist portion is "proof" of ignorance?  Doesn't fly.

By the way, "Protestant movements outside of Scotland" includes the Church of England.  Because England is not Scotland.  England is the southern part of the main island, while Scotland is the northern part.

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3880
  • Darwins +257/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Four periods of history that atheists are usually ignorant of
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2012, 03:22:27 PM »

You completely ignored what was before you. typical.

No he showed how what you put before him was easily shown to not lead to the conclusion you so obviously want, but you are playing word games not to admit to wanting.

It is another person just calling you on your BS wordplay games. Games that are all to misdirect against the basic fact, there is no evidence to support Christianity as being any more true than any other mythology. You think you are clever, but the simple rubber meets the road obvious conclusion is that Yahweh doesn't exist, and no non-sequiturs and sophist ploys will change that.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Olivianus

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
  • Darwins +2/-42
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Four periods of history that atheists are usually ignorant of
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2012, 04:07:14 PM »
jaimehlers, reply to reply #8

Firstly and by way of summary, tangentials do not remove logical consubstantiality which is the fundamental flaw of your reply. You were not as insolent as most in this forum and so I thank you for challenging me without too much unnecessary rhetoric.


Quote
Darwin himself in no way espoused the ideas of Social Darwinism"

Irrelevant. They were logically deduced from his theory and were therefore consubstantial with his theory. You can't escape it.

Quote
"This is incorrect, as I showed above. "

You showed no such thing. You showed emotional inconsistencies between Darwin and Social Darwinism. You did not show LOGICAL INCONSISTENCIES.

Quote
"communism as practiced in Russia (and now, China) was no more an application of Darwin's theory of natural selection than a notorious poisoner would be practicing medicine"

This is hilarious. You think an emotional break proves a logical one.

Quote
"The fact that they used atheism as an excuse for their tyranny is no more convincing than the fact that religion was used as an excuse for other tyrants."

But Protestantism removed itself from Rome's tyranny and religion and became separate moral persons. We rejected romanism. You need then to reject atheism.

Quote
"Nietzsche was not an atheist...Atheism is simply the non-belief in gods"

So you are suggesting that he believed in a god?

Quote
"Since the Roman Catholic Church and its hierarchy were and are in no way atheistic"

Really? Can you describe a single uncreated object that the Roman Catholic Church and its hierarchy offers to man's participation? Can you show me a single aspect of a Roman catholic's life where the normal functions of a god do not get dissolved into some visible administration of the RCC?  If you cannot answer these questions you have admitted that there is nothing transcendent about this religion and it is a de facto atheism which would also remove me from the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

Quote
  "My personal view is that he had religious beliefs, but subsumed them into his ambition"

My personal view is that like many other Roman Catholics he terminated everything that a normal person attributes to his god to a visible administration of the Roman catholic hierarchy thus "it was the kind of atheism that the  Roman Catholic Hierarchy (Which was the real undergirding force of the Nazi movement) relishes in and profits greatly from".

Quote
  "yet he gives no proof of this."

He gave you seven arguments.

Quote
  "Furthermore, Phelps claims here that the Jesuits are involved in some lengthy conspiracy, again without real proof to back it up.”

Phelps wrote an 1800+ page book proving that thing. This was not an article about Jesuit conspiracies sir and by the way it is not conspiracy it is standard history. I summarized it in my paper here: http://eternalpropositions.wordpress.com/history-of-the-jesuits-and-rome/   in the sections on the counter-reformation and the timeline.


 







 
 


Offline Olivianus

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
  • Darwins +2/-42
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Four periods of history that atheists are usually ignorant of
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2012, 04:10:15 PM »
Hey Olivianus,

Doesn't WWGHA deserve a link now on your website under the Atheist section after all this?

C'mon!

http://olivianus.thekingsparlor.com/home

Fair enough. It is done.

Offline Olivianus

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
  • Darwins +2/-42
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Four periods of history that atheists are usually ignorant of
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2012, 04:24:07 PM »
Olivianus,

Why do you believe the things you speak of historically actually happened? How do you know they did?

I have no reason to believe they didn't but I do not see history on the same level with scripture unless it is history in the scripture. Define the word "know".


Offline Olivianus

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 176
  • Darwins +2/-42
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Four periods of history that atheists are usually ignorant of
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2012, 04:28:29 PM »
Just because non-revealed history is not infallible does not mean I cannot produce a fallible theory of history. Revelation gives me an infallible method of interpretation and tells me what "facts" to chose when constructing my historiography. As I pointed out in my videos I hold a Protestant christian historiography. That is, if you want to follow what is really going on in the world you need to follow the power structure around the Roman catholic papacy. The event itself is not infallible but what is infallible gives me the SIGNIFICANCE of the event.

Until you can provide me a historiography that can interpret every century of human history (IMO the last 6500 years or so) you're just complaining in vain.

« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 04:31:18 PM by Olivianus »

Online One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10603
  • Darwins +266/-34
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: Four periods of history that atheists are usually ignorant of
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2012, 04:30:45 PM »
Olivianus, your dismissal of My point that you are committing what you refer to as the "induction fallacy" makes Me a sad angel/god. Why do you want angels/gods to cry? :(
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 04:34:16 PM by Lucifer »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.