Author Topic: Does life begin at conception?  (Read 624 times)

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Offline Chronos

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Does life begin at conception?
« on: March 11, 2012, 09:51:08 AM »
The ‘biblical view’ that’s younger than the Happy Meal

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In 1979, McDonald’s introduced the Happy Meal.

Sometime after that, it was decided that the Bible teaches that human life begins at conception.

...

Jonathan Dudley quotes from the article in his book Broken Words: The Abuse of Science and Faith in American Politics. Keep in mind that this is from a conservative evangelical seminary professor, writing in Billy Graham’s magazine for editor Harold Lindsell:

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God does not regard the fetus as a soul, no matter how far gestation has progressed. The Law plainly exacts: “If a man kills any human life he will be put to death” (Lev. 24:17). But according to Exodus 21:22-24, the destruction of the fetus is not a capital offense. … Clearly, then, in contrast to the mother, the fetus is not reckoned as a soul.

But back in the day, Dudley notes, [Dr Normal L] Geisler “argued for the permissibility of abortion in a 1971 book, stating ‘The embryo is not fully human — it is an undeveloped person.’” That was in Ethics: Alternatives and Issues, published by Zondervan. It’s still in print, kind of, as Christian Ethics: Contemporary Issues and Options. And now it says something different. Now it’s unambiguously anti-abortion.

... They believe this absolutely, unambiguously, firmly, resolutely and loudly. That’s what they believed 10 years ago, and that’s what they believed 20 years ago. But it wasn’t what they believed 30 years ago. Thirty years ago they all believed quite the opposite.

... which makes the Roe v Wade decision of 1973 seem far less shocking and revolutionary. When Christian leaders were referring to the same circumstances and deciding that life doesn't yet exist, SCOTUS simply made a makeshift Constitutional explanation[1] for that which was already thought by evangelicals, marrying law to Christian philosophy.

 1. Correct basic decision, lousy explanation/justification, but one that fit within contemporary Christianity.
John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline monkeymind

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Re: Does life begin at conception?
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2012, 09:57:28 AM »
^^^The Crocks of Mickey Dees supported RoevWade, and our preacher called for us to boycott it.

The fact that the BC pill is abortifacient made no difference to the pro-life group at my church at the time...
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline Tero

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Re: Does life begin at conception?
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2012, 11:34:27 AM »
Surw, but so what? Flatworm life begins at the same point. A fertilized chicken egg is life as well, even when it has no structure.

6 days after laying, the flatworn is a complicated organism
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1519-69842008000400027
« Last Edit: March 11, 2012, 11:43:15 AM by Tero »

Offline One Above All

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Re: Does life begin at conception?
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2012, 12:09:32 PM »
Life begins way before conception. Spermatozoa and ova are alive. So are the cells that make up the testicles and ovaries.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Betelnut

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Re: Does life begin at conception?
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2012, 03:35:37 PM »
Yes, but that doesn't mean I don't believe that abortion should be illegal.  I am pro-choice.

My mother has described it as so, "It is alive and has the potential to be a human being, if it survives.  Sort of like an acorn has the potential to be an oak tree."

Online jetson

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Re: Does life begin at conception?
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2012, 03:58:46 PM »
Humans, like so many species, care about their young, most likely for survival of the species.  Evolution is a process that seems to be attempting to allow the best to survive and flourish.  But the best is subjective.

Our brains have allowed us to place unwarranted significance upon ourselves as a species.  We think we are special, because we think we are special.  The idea that we are special, comes solely from us, and thus has no meaning in nature or the evolution of life itself.  We are here because we are here, and because we can use our own language to describe anything, in whatever way we choose, we make all of the rules.  What would life be without a sentient species to even acknowledge it?

If evolution is what science believes it to be, then we are nothing more than one of the current branches of life, started billions of years in the past, and not since broken.  Life since it's apparent beginning, is so far immortal, and we are only a tiny fraction of the whole.  Yet we are the species able to self-procalim ourselves to be better, or smarter, or more deserving of a place in the chain.  So we are in a sense, selfish, but still   completely unworthy of natures recognition as anything more than plankton.

That we argue endlessly over "precious" life, and when it may or may not begin, is laughable from the perspective of nature.  Nature appears not to give two shits whether we exist or not, judging by the far exceeding number of extinct species over those that have managed to survive.  We are not special, we are just people.  And life for us begins when we get pregnant.  The egg and sperm are united, and if all goes well, we get a baby, usually by choice.

But we are also the same species that gets to decide when we do not want to have a baby.  And that sometimes comes after a pregnancy occurs.  thus, we have abortions to end the chance of having an actual baby.  Many people can't stand the thought, while many others believe it is truly none of their business what another human decides to do.  Life began billions of years ago, and today we have 7 billion humans inhabiting the earth.  The decision to have a baby or end a pregnancy still belongs to individuals, thankfully.

Offline Nick

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Re: Does life begin at conception?
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2012, 04:37:52 PM »
I don't think life begins until you reach the age of reason.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline Tero

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Re: Does life begin at conception?
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2012, 08:30:38 PM »
We somehow think that every fetus and offspring should survive. Not every robin in the nest or puppy in a litter survives. Its a race from day one.

Offline ungod

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Re: Does life begin at conception?
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2012, 09:51:59 AM »
Why restrict the debate to just one end of the spectrum - unfertilized children, and unborn babies?
What about all the undead corpses in hospitals, nursing homes, seniors residences? They must be saved from this horrible suffering!

Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

"What good fortune for those in power that people do not think." - Hitler

Offline GodlessHeathen

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Re: Does life begin at conception?
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2012, 01:35:14 PM »
As Lucifer pointed out, life does begin way before conception. The more relevant question would be, when does "humanity" begin... a very difficult question to answer.
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

Offline One Above All

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Re: Does life begin at conception?
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2012, 01:38:24 PM »
As Lucifer pointed out, life does begin way before conception. The more relevant question would be, when does "humanity" begin... a very difficult question to answer.

One thing is certain - humanity requires consciousness. Consciousness in turn requires a brain, which embryos (IIRC) do not have.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Does life begin at conception?
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2012, 03:37:55 PM »
I don't think there can be any reasonable doubt that consciousness cannot exist until long after conception, and there's no real telling exactly when it comes into play.  At least, unless you're one of those who thinks God downloads a soul into every conceived embryo...which begs the question of why, since as much as a third of all embryos are miscarried in the first trimester.  And it's worse if you're one of those who thinks God has a plan for everyone.

Offline monkeymind

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Re: Does life begin at conception?
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2012, 03:54:42 PM »
Life begins at 40.
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/life-begins-at-forty.html
Origin
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The notion that 'life begins at forty' is a 20th century one; prior to that it was more accurate to say 'death begins at forty' as most people didn't live much beyond that age. Life expectancy in mediaeval England was around 25 years and only reached forty sometime around the turn of the 20th century. By the 1930s many, in western societies at least, could expect a decent spell of reasonably affluent retirement, free from work and the responsibilities of childcare. Household gadgets like washing machines and vacuum cleaners were becoming more widely used and had begun to relieve women's drudgery and offer them increasing amounts of leisure time as compared to their Victorian mothers.
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.