Author Topic: Rick Santorum: Obama Wrong For Apologizing Over Quran Burn  (Read 1482 times)

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Offline pingnak

Re: Rick Santorum: Obama Wrong For Apologizing Over Quran Burn
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2012, 08:09:11 PM »
They will probably be less offended by the killings, than the book burnings. 

Besides, in this case he will be held and tried and everything else.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Rick Santorum: Obama Wrong For Apologizing Over Quran Burn
« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2012, 08:39:24 PM »
Yes, it's obvious how they think don't think! The point you seemed to miss is that when they see that their magic sky daddy is powerless, and that following the faithful is merely a pathway to death, and that those who don't take it so seriously tend to live better lives,  then they won't react to Koran burning.  Just as the christian west doesn't react to bible burning, they could eventually let their god be the enforcer and sit this out. The ones that will die to venerate their books are also the ones that wish to kill us as infidels, and which are also the ones that we sent our army over there to kill, wasn't it? Who is it we want our soldiers killing today as opposed to 2003?
And it's just as obvious how you're not thinking this through.  You just got done saying that they don't think, and then you expect them to think and react in a rational manner?  You should realize that to them, if their god doesn't do anything, it obviously means they have to do it for him - the ability of someone to rationalize away conflicting information to something they already believe is practically endless.  The reason the West doesn't react so badly to things like Bible burning is because Western societies already have a secular tradition.

What you need to understand is that if we adopt the tactic of Koran-burning to draw out the extremists in a country that does not have that kind of secular tradition, it will also anger those who are undecided, and upset those who are friendly.  Enough of that will cause even those willing to give us a chance to hate us.  And that says nothing about how other countries will react.  It would end up being Pyrrhic in nature - it would cost us so much in the long run that any short-term gains would be utterly useless.

Quote from: Brakeman
Because the muslim fundamentalists have been supremely successful in stamping out moderate voices, the "neutral" muslim countries are nothing of the sort, they simply lack the military and the gonads to attack the U.S., yet.
So because you think they already hate us, we can't make things worse?  Another example of not thinking this through.  What we have to deal with from the neutral and friendly Muslim countries is nothing compared to how bad it could be if we started actively pissing them off.  Which your idea of burning Korans would certainly do.

Quote from: Brakeman
You are correct if our goal is to get along with them... but is that our goal? Is it the correct goal, or is it the only one we've a smidgen of a chance of attaining?
Our goal should be to avoid doing stupid things to make the situation even worse than it already is.  We've already shot ourselves in the foot repeatedly (starting from the way we pissed bin Laden off in Gulf War 1), and we don't need to make it worse still.

You mean like killing their women and children like Staff Sgt Loony just did. Looks like a lot more apologising needs to be done.
There's a point at which apologizing becomes useless, and it's not going to take many more incidents like that to push us past it.

Offline Timo

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Re: Rick Santorum: Obama Wrong For Apologizing Over Quran Burn
« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2012, 10:22:53 PM »
Aaaaayo

I thought that the Taliban were a group of ultra orthodox muslims who harbored Bin Laden's al-Qaeda group precisely because of the Koran's teaching, to fight against a decadent west.


I don't think that they would interperet the Qur'an as teaching that Muslims should fight against the West per se.  The folks that would become the Taliban, their future opponents in the North and Bin Laden himself were all too happy to work with the West in fighting the Soviets.  Likewise, the Taliban will likely go back to not particularly caring about the West if and when we leave.  I think we make a mistake when we lump in the dwindling al-Quaeda network in Afghanistan with the Taliban, which is more of a nationalistic movement than anything else.

I thought these fanatics would be the ones to fling themselves against the war lines in a mad rush if their holy book was being desecrated.

I thought that our soldiers used weapons to kill those who would fight against the west to the call of their koran. I thought it would be easier to kill them in one big push if they attacked from their weak position due to their mad craze. I thought the US's problem was to sort them out from the calm peaceful civilians that did not wish death upon the west because of their book.

The problem with this line of thinking is this.  People aren't born violent, backwards, zealous or any other adjective we might rightly ascribe to al-Quaeda and the Taliban.  They learn it.  And what we do when we burn Qur'ans and more importantly bomb civilians in drone strikes is make it clear to the people of places like Afghanistan and Pakistan that the Bin Ladens of the world are right.  We are their enemy.  We are out to destroy them because they are Muslims.  And we, of course, hate Muslims.

Now I learn that to be successful we should appease the muslim faith?
What was our goal to begin with??

I don't like the way you phrased this, but in a lot of ways "appeasing the Muslim faith" or at least, convincing Muslims around the world that we are not their enemy should be our goal.  Muslims should know that there are Muslims in the US, in US government, in the armed services, that there are graves in Arlington National Cemetary with cresents on them etc.

We like the Muslims.

Yes, it's obvious how they think don't think! The point you seemed to miss is that when they see that their magic sky daddy is powerless, and that following the faithful is merely a pathway to death, and that those who don't take it so seriously tend to live better lives,  then they won't react to Koran burning.  Just as the christian west doesn't react to bible burning, they could eventually let their god be the enforcer and sit this out. The ones that will die to venerate their books are also the ones that wish to kill us as infidels, and which are also the ones that we sent our army over there to kill, wasn't it? Who is it we want our soldiers killing today as opposed to 2003?

This right here is my problem with a lot of thinking on the atheist side of things.  You can pat yourself on the back about being smart enough to realize that there is no "sky daddy" throwing bolts of lightning or whatever.  But that doesn't have much to do with the discussion at hand.  The response to burning Qur'ans is, in part, about religion.  But it's also about occupation.  It's also about nationalism.  Think about it.  We, a foreign power, are occupying their land and denying their people sovereignty.  You have to put the Qur'an burnings in that context or you're just not even pretending to try to make sense of this.

You know, as much as I dislike the whole Ron Paul phenomenon, I think that the fact that he's making this point is valuable to our conversation:



While I'd disagree with some of how the Paul campaign is portraying things (ie Obama campaigned on leaving Iraq, but he also campaigned on surging in Afghanistan)  he gets at a basic human fact.  People don't like being invaded and dominated by other peoples.  And they especially don't like having those foreign peoples disrespect them in the process.  I mean, we can talk about how our fundamentalist nut jobs probably wouldn't kill people for burning Bibles.  But we aren't being occupied by some non-Christian nation and so it's not really analogous.

Because the muslim fundamentalists have been supremely successful in stamping out moderate voices, the "neutral" muslim countries are nothing of the sort, they simply lack the military and the gonads to attack the U.S., yet.

This is nonsense.  Even truly fundamentalist countries like Saudi Arabia have no interest in attacking us.  And countries like Turkey or Jordan, do you honestly think they're just laying in wait for the right moment to strike?  Wow.  In between joining NATO and trying to get into the Eurozone, Turkey's just been plotting the West's downfall?  Really?


So yeah.....
Nah son...

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Rick Santorum: Obama Wrong For Apologizing Over Quran Burn
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2012, 11:06:08 PM »
Indeed, Timo.

I know how I would feel about foreign occupiers burning American flags or copies of the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence.  Those are symbols, just as the Koran is a symbol to Muslims.  And destroying the symbols comes across as attacking what those symbols represent, and if that's something that matters to them, then people will act to defend it.

Offline rickymooston

Re: Rick Santorum: Obama Wrong For Apologizing Over Quran Burn
« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2012, 01:42:29 AM »

So be thankful of their efforts to keep Big Oil profitable.  Because spending even one dollar battery research or electric vehicles or even light rail is 'socialism'.
.

First of all, tons of research has been put into alternate sources; i.e., they are not immediately profitable.

http://sciencecareers.sciencemag.org/career_magazine/previous_issues/articles/2006_07_14/noDOI.12368785628501944116
Quote
The lead government agency on energy research is, of course, the U.S. Department of Energy (DoE), which has been a major funder of energy research since its inception in 1977. The administration has requested, and Congress seems likely to fund, an increase of at least 15% for DoE's Office of Science for Fiscal Year (FY) 2007, which begins on 1 October 2006. The FY 2007 request includes nearly $150 million each for new initiatives in biofuels and solar energy, and $288 million for hydrogen fuels

As for light rail? Where is it practical? It probably makes sense in densily populated areas

As for Afganistan, the goal is difficult to achieve. The goal was to have a stable self sufficient government (that at least looks like a democracy of sorts) and that doesn't support terrorism.
"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Offline pingnak

Re: Rick Santorum: Obama Wrong For Apologizing Over Quran Burn
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2012, 05:09:53 PM »
Yes, $150,000,000 spent here and there, an eyedropper at a time.  Versus a couple of trillion dollars ($2,000,000,000,000) spent ALL THE FUCKING TIME on oil.

Admittedly oil supply problems cause instant economic recession and immediate economic hardship for Americans by the millions, just like yanking the power cord out of your computer will cause it to stop working.

But that makes weaning ourselves off imported petroleum a NATIONAL SECURITY PRIORITY, not just something to talk about.  Something to DO.

Because Iran isn't going to stop playing games.  The Middle East is too full of U.S. backed dictators and tyrants and violent morons to ever become 'stable'.  And demand for petroleum from developing nations is going up asymptotically.  In other words, $5/gallon at the pump will be a fond memory of 'how cheap oil used to be', very, very soon.

And we still have drooling fucking morons who defend our total abject dependence on imported petroleum. 

You may as well run cars off diamonds and trust DeBeers to be honest with the pricing.

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Rick Santorum: Obama Wrong For Apologizing Over Quran Burn
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2012, 06:06:59 PM »
Sadly a gun is a very poor educational tool .

I still scratch my head on why some complain NOW about inciting muslims around the world, when we attacked two countries for 911 although the perpetrators were Saudis. We killed hundreds of thousands, invoke hateful rhetoric daily for years, torture and murder in secret prisons while leaking irreverent pictures of the torture in progress with girls winking in front of the dead. We give them no right and no dignity and force their takeover by the most rigorously fundamental groups, often lead by foreign muslims. We piss on their dead soldiers, and when our side commits serious war crimes, we laugh and MAYBE give them a slap on the wrist. But now! burning confiscated Korans is going too far??
My opinion is that we've not only crossed the line, we went on down the block and got on the interstate.
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Rick Santorum: Obama Wrong For Apologizing Over Quran Burn
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2012, 06:20:11 PM »
I still scratch my head on why some complain NOW about inciting muslims around the world, when we attacked two countries for 911 although the perpetrators were Saudis.
So should we have attacked Saudi Arabia instead?  We attacked Afghanistan because the Taliban was sheltering bin Laden, which was at least legitimate.  We attacked Iraq because of wrong allegations about WMD and false allegations about them being tied in with 9/11, which was questionable when it happened and certainly is so with the benefit of hindsight.

Quote from: Brakeman
We killed hundreds of thousands, invoke hateful rhetoric daily for years, torture and murder in secret prisons while leaking irreverent pictures of the torture in progress with girls winking in front of the dead. We give them no right and no dignity and force their takeover by the most rigorously fundamental groups, often lead by foreign muslims. We piss on their dead soldiers, and when our side commits serious war crimes, we laugh and MAYBE give them a slap on the wrist. But now! burning confiscated Korans is going too far??
My opinion is that we've not only crossed the line, we went on down the block and got on the interstate.
My point is that none of those things were or are irreparable, even the Koran burnings.  If nothing else, getting out of Afghanistan and Iraq (which we should have done years ago) would be a good start.  We have precious little moral authority left, and we need to start rebuilding it, not squandering what little of it remains.  Getting out of our dependence on foreign oil would be an even better next step - we don't need to be drawn into stupid fights over oil, of all things.

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Rick Santorum: Obama Wrong For Apologizing Over Quran Burn
« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2012, 06:28:41 PM »
So should we have attacked Saudi Arabia instead?  We attacked Afghanistan because the Taliban was sheltering bin Laden, which was at least legitimate. 

Oh really, just like when we bombed Karachi, Pakistan, and rolled tanks into their capital and totally destroyed their military and economy because they were harboring Bin Laden?  Oh wait, we forgot to do that.. How silly of us?

Here's a crazy idea, how about just punishing the groups that committed the crime, just the terrorists, and being proper and polite to everyone else, what was wrong with that idea?

Well, other than the fact it wasn't a red american idea..
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline MadBunny

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Re: Rick Santorum: Obama Wrong For Apologizing Over Quran Burn
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2012, 07:52:30 PM »
Red American?
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline rickymooston

Re: Rick Santorum: Obama Wrong For Apologizing Over Quran Burn
« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2012, 07:59:29 PM »
Sadly a gun is a very poor educational tool .



Oh really, just like when we bombed Karachi, Pakistan, and rolled tanks into their capital and totally destroyed their military and economy because they were harboring Bin Laden?  Oh wait, we forgot to do that.. How silly of us?

Well, officially, the government wasn't harbouring Bin Laden. Its likely, that some rogue members of the Pakistani establishment were. Pakistan is a very diverse country.
"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Rick Santorum: Obama Wrong For Apologizing Over Quran Burn
« Reply #40 on: March 13, 2012, 05:20:25 AM »
They will probably be less offended by the killings, than the book burnings. 

I doubt that, actually. They worship death, live has no value.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Rick Santorum: Obama Wrong For Apologizing Over Quran Burn
« Reply #41 on: March 13, 2012, 05:45:04 AM »
Red American?

Also known as GOP republitard, or tea bagger. You know.. my neighbors here..
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Offline Brakeman

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Re: Rick Santorum: Obama Wrong For Apologizing Over Quran Burn
« Reply #42 on: March 13, 2012, 05:48:06 AM »

Well, officially, the government wasn't harboring Bin Laden. Its likely, that some rogue members of the Pakistani establishment were. Pakistan is a very diverse country.

Of the last 10,000 people we have killed in Afghanistan, how many of them were "harboring" Bin Laden?
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Rick Santorum: Obama Wrong For Apologizing Over Quran Burn
« Reply #43 on: March 13, 2012, 07:17:36 AM »
Oh really, just like when we bombed Karachi, Pakistan, and rolled tanks into their capital and totally destroyed their military and economy because they were harboring Bin Laden?  Oh wait, we forgot to do that.. How silly of us?

Here's a crazy idea, how about just punishing the groups that committed the crime, just the terrorists, and being proper and polite to everyone else, what was wrong with that idea?

Well, other than the fact it wasn't a red american idea..
You do realize that the Taliban was the official government of Afghanistan, right?  There's a difference between militants hiding in a country, and militants being sheltered within it by the country's official government.  Whatever else you say about it, you have to at least be willing to accept that much.

Online Graybeard

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Re: Rick Santorum: Obama Wrong For Apologizing Over Quran Burn
« Reply #44 on: March 15, 2012, 02:21:12 PM »
The Korans were being used to trade secret messages between prisoners. They were right to take them away and destroy them.
I don’t usually go in for conspiracy theories but the earliest and most detailed report I can find is at http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57381753/official-burned-qurans-held-extremist-messages/ This is far from conclusive and carefully worded.

Never forget that (i) the army, like large corporations worldwide, has a finely tuned PRO department. And (ii) much of what comes out of the army or any other large organisation needs careful translation.
Quote
KABUL, Afghanistan - Muslim holy books that were burned in a pile of garbage at a U.S. military base in Afghanistan had been removed from a library at a nearby detention center because they contained extremist messages or inscriptions, a western military official said Tuesday.

The military official with knowledge of the incident said it appeared that the Qurans (Korans) and other Islamic readings were being used to fuel extremism, and that detainees at Parwan Detention Facility were writing on the documents to exchange extremist messages

He spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the incident.
This is what is known as a deniable statement.  The information is put out and appears to be a reasonable explanation. However, it could simply be a plausible lie.

The beauty of the wording is that if it is shown to be a lie, the military will reply, “Whoever you spoke to said that he was not authorised to speak – that is because he did not know the facts – he had it wrong – simple as that.”

Later, U.S. Gen. John Allen comments,
Quote
[…]
U.S. Gen. John Allen, the top commander of American and NATO forces in Afghanistan, apologized to the Afghan people and said the books were inadvertently given to troops for burning.
"It was not a decision that was made because they were religious materials," Allen told NATO TV. "It was not a decision that was made with respect to the faith of Islam. It was a mistake. It was an error. The moment we found out about it we immediately stopped and we intervened."
Note: "It was not a decision that was made because they were religious materials," Allen told NATO TV.”

All this actually says is the obvious – religious materials are not burned because simply because it is religious.

The next, “… It was not a decision that was made with respect to the faith of Islam.” – so it was for some other reason, but a decision to burn was made.

And then, “It was a mistake. It was an error.” What does “it” mean? I’m sure that  Gen. John Allen would like everyone to think that “it” was the burning, but it can’t be the burning – it must mean, “the decision.”

Desecrating the Koran by writing in it is just as bad as setting fire to it. So why did not. Gen. John Allen say, “The Korans had been desecrated by the prisoners [and rendered unholy].”? Why was there no Koran produced to show this? Surely the saved ones had these writings?

Or perhaps they did not. Perhaps, in view of the falling numbers of prisoners for which the US has authority in advance of a hand-over, the Korans were simply surplus to requirements.

RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline Quesi

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Re: Rick Santorum: Obama Wrong For Apologizing Over Quran Burn
« Reply #45 on: March 15, 2012, 03:28:48 PM »



You do realize that the Taliban was the official government of Afghanistan, right?  There's a difference between militants hiding in a country, and militants being sheltered within it by the country's official government.  Whatever else you say about it, you have to at least be willing to accept that much.

Well, sort of, I guess.  The Taliban was the official government in the chaotic vacuum left by the Soviet Occupation, after successfully using military force and brutal oppression to stifle and assassinate members of any opposition movement, including Ahmad Shah Massoud, the former Minister of Defense, who was part of the negotiations that lead to the creation of the nation/state of Afghanistan.   

Afghanistan is a mess.  The majority of the people who reside around urban centers or places that have any hint of infrastructure speak Dari.  The Taliban speak Pashtune (or Pashto).  I've known people from both regions, and they are really different worlds.  Not only are they completely different linguistically, ethnically, socially, culturally, but they have completely different traditions and worldviews.  The only things that hold them together are some artificially drawn borders, and a long history of being occupied by foreign forces.  The tribal people who support the Taliban are so complex, I have no idea why we would begin to think that we could even understand them.  There is a deeply ingrained caste system in which people pass down guilt to their children for things (like rape) that impacted on the family blood line a thousand years ago.  Seriously. 

Superstition and tradition and complex caste systems and extraordinarily complex social norms, among an overwhelmingly illiterate population, have lead these people to attach themselves to symbols of the few things in life that provide them hope or comfort.  And religion has offered hope and comfort to (mostly illiterate) people residing in warzones thoughout all of history. 

We can sit here in our homes, wired with electricity and pipes bringing in fresh water, and we can type on our computers and dismiss their religion while drinking a coffee or a beer, with a TV blasting in the background, a refrigerator full of food and a warm, clean comfortable bed waiting for us at the end of the day, and judge them for their superstitions or joke about the small comforts that they find in their beliefs.   But I think that is petty.

Everyone in Afghanistan has been a victim of the cold war conflict, that had nothing to do with their lives.  Everyone in Afghanistan has been the victim of the Taliban.  And even though some schools have been built, and park benches installed in public plazas, everyone in Afghanistan has been the victim of the US occupation. 

Offline rickymooston

Re: Rick Santorum: Obama Wrong For Apologizing Over Quran Burn
« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2012, 05:29:16 PM »
Of the last 10,000 people we have killed in Afghanistan, how many of them were "harboring" Bin Laden?

How many of them would harbor Bin Laden, if they could? How many of them would attack the US, if they could?
 &)

I'd say, 100% of the ones intentionally killed would harbor Bin Laden.

I'm not sure how many of them would attack the US, if the US wasn't in Afganistan.
"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.