Rick Santorum: Obama Wrong For Apologizing Over Quran Burn

[pingnak]

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/02/santorum-obama-wrong-to-apologize-for-quran-burning/

Of course he thinks that.  Anything that isn't the Catholic edition of buybull should be burned, as far as this nut is concerned.  Holy books, history books, math books, doesn't matter.

[joebbowers]

I agree with the frothy mixture on this one. It was not an intentional insult against Islam. It was the destruction of contraband. The Korans were being used to trade secret messages between prisoners. They were right to take them away and destroy them. Just because it's a symbol of their religion doesn't mean everyone else has to show it respect.

[Graybeard]

Yet another example of the short-sighted, knee-jerk mentality of Santorum. It really does not matter if Afghanis should get upset, all that matters is that anyone with an ounce of common sense would realise that they would get upset.

If the Koran's had to be disposed of, why wasn't President Karzai or a leading cleric not asked to provide a solution - the responsibility would then have been theirs.

If you look around the net, you will find examples of the protocol on how to dispose of a bible and how to dispose of an American flag - ceremonies are held (really!) for burial (true!) in consecrated earth (FFS).

Why does Santorum not think that other religions and countries might not have similar methods? Why did he think that although burning the American flag caused near riots in the past in America, that burning a Koran would not create the same furore and more than likely lead to American deaths?

The answer is that he is a deluded twat - he thinks that it is absolutely right to burn Korans in an Islamic state but absolutely wrong to burn bibles in a Christian one.

[jaimehlers]

I agree with Graybeard.  Furthermore, when you do something by mistake, you apologize for it.  If I step on someone's toes by accident, and I'm a decent person, I apologize to them for my mistake.  Or to put it in a much more blatant way, if I accidentally hit a baseball through someone's expensive stained-glass window, even if I personally think the window is utterly tasteless and crass, I still apologize for the accident, which I was responsible for.  No matter how I actually feel about the window itself, I destroyed something important to them.

If the prisoners were using them to communicate secret messages, then confiscating the Korans was right and just.  But destroying them was not.  The secret messages could be removed from the Korans, or if they couldn't be without defacing it, then you pass it on the relevant authorities so they can dispose of it.  But you don't go, "they're using it as contraband, therefore burn baby burn".

[Karl]

Just because it's a symbol of their religion doesn't mean everyone else has to show it respect.

So does that mean that anything that is a symbol of something that you don't go along with doesn't deserve any respect? Do you not know the meaning of the word tolerance? And in this case the benefit of using common sense leads to the loss of human life. So it is alright to criticize the disastrous consequences of religion as a whole but when it comes to the practical application of cultural knowledge in order to avoid damage it doesn't matter. I guess you're not a diplomat and hope you will never chose to become one.

[pingnak]

Burning flags, burning books (in general).

If your dead mom doesn't matter to me, should I defecate on her grave?

Or, you know, show up at the funeral, pop open the lid, clamber on top of the coffin, drop pants, squat down and do a deuce in the box?

Maybe douse her in gasoline and set it on fire.  She was gonna be cremated, anyway, right?

Symbols mean things to people, be that sentimental, religious, nationalistic, etc. 

When it comes to holy books, it's sentimental, religious, and (for many) nationalistic, all in one neat little package.  And maybe you're pissing off their invisible, undetectable friend, too.  Gotta protect their gods' feelings, or they believe their god'll punish them, too.  There's always random, miserable daily shit to blame on a god.  The ultimate fall-guy.

[Azdgari]

Or, you know, show up at the funeral, pop open the lid, clamber on top of the coffin, drop pants, squat down and do a deuce in the box?

Hey, she's gonna be ground up and used for fertilizer anyway...right?

[Frank]

I agree with the frothy mixture on this one. It was not an intentional insult against Islam. It was the destruction of contraband. The Korans were being used to trade secret messages between prisoners. They were right to take them away and destroy them. Just because it's a symbol of their religion doesn't mean everyone else has to show it respect.

Your logic escapes me. Now from previous US based koran burning americans know that doing this kind of thing tends to get a lot of people very dead very quickly. Now you would think if they must burn them then they would do it in some incinerator away from prying afghan eyes but you would be wrong. No what we will do is take them to the local dump and burn them in public because we're a bunch of fucking idiots. And guess what? A lot of people are now dead.
I don't think Obama should be apologising for burnt korans. What he should apologise for is the stupidity of american soldiers who appear to be no brighter than a two watt bulb.

As for Santorum. He's a cretin and the only people who care what he thinks are other cretins.

[joebbowers]

So suddenly we think Korans and Bibles are worthy of respect far beyond that of any other book? Not only respect, but holy reverence to the point where we should observe religious rituals in their disposal?

An odd position for a group of atheists.

[ParkingPlaces]

I think it is a bit or practicality, not agreeing with the worshipers. Those folks over there take is seriously, and a lot of people on both sides of the fence of died because of it.

If it was just me that might get killed, then go for it. But when it is someone's dad or mom or brother or sister, who is innocent of any wrongdoing, and we can keep them alive, it's worth a try.

By the way, is Santorum gets elected, the dark ages won't look quite so bad. And that's not good.

He won Kansas. Let them keep him.

[Brakeman]

I wonder if it is the right strategy?  Perhaps if we showed strongly that we had no fear of Allah's retribution or his followers then perhaps they would begin to see the religion as a much weaker force and move to a more secular society, which is what we want, ultimately.

[Brakeman]

How could we suggest to the Santorum that he tour Iraq and Afghanistan outside of the U.S. military coattails and show us the successes of the last republican president..?

[pingnak]

No, we don't think the Quran, Buibull, etc., are any more 'worthy' than any other pulp fiction.

Atheists aren't generally the ones piling up and burning books.   

"Das war ein Vorspiel nur, dort wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man auch am Ende Menschen." ("That was but a prelude; where they burn books, they will ultimately burn people also.")
-Heinrich Heine, 1821

Is it wise to go to an Islamic state, wave a Quran at a crowd of people, and then light it on fire?  It's not a particularly effective way of making friends with people.  But you will definitely get their attention.  Generally it's not a good idea to go to an Islamic state.  I've been to Saudi Arabia before.  Nothing to do there at all but avoid prayer call and chop-chop square.  Riyadh was creepy even back in the 1980s.

[joebbowers]

No, we don't think the Quran, Buibull, etc., are any more 'worthy' than any other pulp fiction.

Some people here certainly seem to. Otherwise they wouldn't compare burning it to cracking open my mother's coffin and shitting on her corpse. I doubt I'd get that kind of vitriol if I said I'd burned some old magazines.

Is it wise to go to an Islamic state, wave a Quran at a crowd of people, and then light it on fire?

No, but that's not what happened, and you know that.

[Timo]

I really don't see why this is a hard thing to understand.  We're occupying an Islamic country, Afghanistan.  We're conducting drone strikes in several others, including the occupied country's neighbor, Pakistan.  And we're providing military support and diplomatic cover for the Israeli occupation of Palestine.  When we're doing all of these things, maybe burning the Qur'an isn't a good look for us.

The fact that we, as atheists, don't find the Holy Qur'an to be all that holy is really neither here nor there.  If I were president (god forbid) I would have apologized too.

[MadBunny]

I really don't see why this is a hard thing to understand.  We're occupying an Islamic country, Afghanistan.  We're conducting drone strikes in several others, including the occupied country's neighbor, Pakistan.  And we're providing military support and diplomatic cover for the Israeli occupation of Palestine.  When we're doing all of these things, maybe burning the Qur'an isn't a good look for us.

The fact that we, as atheists, don't find the Holy Qur'an to be all that holy is really neither here nor there.  If I were president (god forbid) I would have apologized too.

[pingnak]

No, but that's not what happened, and you know that.

Actually, we DO NOT know anything of the sort.

The U.S. military has been overrun by evangelicals.  Just the sorts who'd make a SHOW of burning Qurans.

I mean, how the heck does someone just 'notice' that some soldiers are burning a specific kinds of books in a big trash fire?

I see enough of the sort of Christians who'd be dancing and carrying on to burn a Quran.  Even in the USAF, there were plenty of immature, bigoted morons.  Get some 19 year old kids in the mix who are reinforced every hour of every day that Jesus is right, and calling the locals 'ragheads' and 'sand n!ggers' the whole time they're there.  Some of them had bits of shiny metal on their epaulets.

Your mom is probably important to you, but she's nothing to me... unless she's alive and gives good head at a cheap price.  But then again, I wouldn't want to catch anything.

I'd normally not make such comments about someone's mother, but when they behave like they are so dense as to not 'understand' how there are certain things we are all expected to do (or refrain from doing) to get along with people, I have to try to use simple, simple models for such a mind to understand.

[jaimehlers]

So suddenly we think Korans and Bibles are worthy of respect far beyond that of any other book? Not only respect, but holy reverence to the point where we should observe religious rituals in their disposal?

An odd position for a group of atheists.

No, I think it's a good idea not to needlessly tick off a bunch of religious folk who take it seriously, just as I think it's a good idea not to go whacking on a beehive with a stick.

[Seppuku]

Taking a shit on somebody's coffin is going to piss off the people who cared for the dead person, because it is considered disrespectful. No god is going to strike you down for it, but it'd probably lead to having the shit kicked out of you. Burning somebody's holy text isn't exactly going to have them high-fiving you, in fact they'd find it disrespectful.

I disagreed with the Quran Burning because I don't believe in book burning. Whilst it's just paper at the end of the day but, it is also a means of protest against freedom of expression. Well, chucking your magazines on the fire just to dispose of them isn't, but clearly this burning wasn't to get rid of a surplus of Qurans. It's why book burning is usually grouped in with fascism, we may not agree with somebody but we will not suppress their freedom of express. Heck, I wouldn't even suppress the book burners (they're engaging in freedom of expression too), however, I would speak openly against it and if I was the president, I'd go as far as apologising that such a thing would happen on my soil.

I also think the numerous Muslims who burned Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses were wrong too, so I don't think it matter so much that a book is religious, but so much as it contains self expression. Burning art, CD's, DVD's musical instruments and so on would be included. Both burnings I consider to be very disrespectful.

I also disagreed with UAF (Ironically named, Unite Against Fascism, a protest group in the UK) when they tried to stop the BBC from allowing Nick Griffin to appear on Question Time because they felt it'd legitimise his bigoted views. But he is a political leader and has the same freedom of expression rights as everybody else, even if he is a bigoted 'c' word. The awesome thing about the use of freedom of expression is that you can use to speech to de-legitimise a person's argument. Suppression just ignores the matter. Nick Griffin got totally pwnd on Question Time, though I do agree the BBC handled it poorly.

Awesome video from Penn and Teller here:

[Brakeman]

Wow, I learn so much on these forums..

I thought that the Taliban were a group of ultra orthodox muslims who harbored Bin Laden's al-Qaeda group precisely because of the Koran's teaching, to fight against a decadent west. I thought these fanatics would be the ones to fling themselves against the war lines in a mad rush if their holy book was being desecrated.

I thought that our soldiers used weapons to kill those who would fight against the west to the call of their koran. I thought it would be easier to kill them in one big push if they attacked from their weak position due to their mad craze. I thought the US's problem was to sort them out from the calm peaceful civilians that did not wish death upon the west because of their book.

Now I learn that to be successful we should appease the muslim faith?
What was our goal to begin with??

[rickymooston]

I agree with the frothy mixture on this one. It was not an intentional insult against Islam. It was the destruction of contraband. The Korans were being used to trade secret messages between prisoners. They were right to take them away and destroy them. Just because it's a symbol of their religion doesn't mean everyone else has to show it respect.

First of all, the US doesn't want to escalate the conflict. The American forces were and are well aware about the emotion behind Koran destruction.

As for the exchange of secret messages, that is indeed a problem.

[rickymooston]

So suddenly we think Korans and Bibles are worthy of respect far beyond that of any other book? Not only respect, but holy reverence to the point where we should observe religious rituals in their disposal?

An odd position for a group of atheists.

No. We understand that religious people exist there, who will be violently angered at Koran destruction.

Burning a Koran in Afganistan is like walking down the Catholic neighborhoods of Belfast praising WIlliam of Orange. Its a battle cry.

[Nick]

Well, I guess we got even with them today.  Some solider went out house to house and killed 16 (including children).  That should help.

[rickymooston]

Well, I guess we got even with them today.  Some solider went out house to house and killed 16 (including children).  That should help.

I see.

Wow, I learn so much on these forums..

I thought that the Taliban were a group of ultra orthodox muslims who harbored Bin Laden's al-Qaeda group precisely because of the Koran's teaching, to fight against a decadent west. I thought these fanatics would be the ones to fling themselves against the war lines in a mad rush if their holy book was being desecrated.

I thought that our soldiers used weapons to kill those who would fight against the west to the call of their koran. I thought it would be easier to kill them in one big push if they attacked from their weak position due to their mad craze. I thought the US's problem was to sort them out from the calm peaceful civilians that did not wish death upon the west because of their book.

Now I learn that to be successful we should appease the muslim faith?
What was our goal to begin with??

Its a muslim country. There are obvious faux pas one has to avoid. Its called common sense.

As for the goal and exit strategy, that's good question.

[jaimehlers]

Wow, I learn so much on these forums..

I thought that the Taliban were a group of ultra orthodox muslims who harbored Bin Laden's al-Qaeda group precisely because of the Koran's teaching, to fight against a decadent west. I thought these fanatics would be the ones to fling themselves against the war lines in a mad rush if their holy book was being desecrated.

I thought that our soldiers used weapons to kill those who would fight against the west to the call of their koran. I thought it would be easier to kill them in one big push if they attacked from their weak position due to their mad craze. I thought the US's problem was to sort them out from the calm peaceful civilians that did not wish death upon the west because of their book.

Now I learn that to be successful we should appease the muslim faith?
What was our goal to begin with??

*facepalm*

So just what do you think the other Muslims in Afghanistan and Pakistan, let alone anywhere else, would do as a result of this Koran-burning craze?  Do you have even the slightest understanding of how people like this think?  People stop being calm and peaceful when other people start destroying or desecrating symbols that are important to them.  Using Koran-burning as a lure for the Taliban and their ilk might work, in a strictly limited short-term sense, but it would turn a lot of Muslims who are neutral into enemies, and turn a lot of Muslims who are allied to us into unfriendly neutrals, at best.

This isn't about appeasing the Muslim faith, it's about not making really stupid strategic blunders that are bound to infuriate them.

[Brakeman]

So just what do you think the other Muslims in Afghanistan and Pakistan, let alone anywhere else, would do as a result of this Koran-burning craze?  Do you have even the slightest understanding of how people like this think?  People stop being calm and peaceful when other people start destroying or desecrating symbols that are important to them. 

Yes, it's obvious how they think don't think! The point you seemed to miss is that when they see that their magic sky daddy is powerless, and that following the faithful is merely a pathway to death, and that those who don't take it so seriously tend to live better lives,  then they won't react to Koran burning.  Just as the christian west doesn't react to bible burning, they could eventually let their god be the enforcer and sit this out. The ones that will die to venerate their books are also the ones that wish to kill us as infidels, and which are also the ones that we sent our army over there to kill, wasn't it? Who is it we want our soldiers killing today as opposed to 2003?

Using Koran-burning as a lure for the Taliban and their ilk might work, in a strictly limited short-term sense, but it would turn a lot of Muslims who are neutral into enemies, and turn a lot of Muslims who are allied to us into unfriendly neutrals, at best.

Because the muslim fundamentalists have been supremely successful in stamping out moderate voices, the "neutral" muslim countries are nothing of the sort, they simply lack the military and the gonads to attack the U.S., yet.

This isn't about appeasing the Muslim faith, it's about not making really stupid strategic blunders that are bound to infuriate them.

You are correct if our goal is to get along with them... but is that our goal? Is it the correct goal, or is it the only one we've a smidgen of a chance of attaining?

[Frank]

This isn't about appeasing the Muslim faith, it's about not making really stupid strategic blunders that are bound to infuriate them.

You mean like killing their women and children like Staff Sgt Loony just did. Looks like a lot more apologising needs to be done.

[pingnak]

The problem is: We don't have a goal.

Dubya went in, toppled two regimes, and now we're trying to keep the puppets we installed in power.

This has nothing to do with appeasement.  This has nothing to do with democracy.  This has nothing to do with religion or education or 'nation building'.

This is about pacifying threats to one of our major sources of petroleum, and keeping oil prices in check.

Securing its safe exploitation and transport.  Keeping it affordable.

The U.S. government just blew WAY over two trillion dollars in the middle east over the last 11 years or so, making sure you can afford to fill the tank in your SUV at an affordable price.  They just happened to have spent+borrowed enough money to buy every man, woman and child in the U.S. a couple of fancy SUVs, or maybe an affordable manufactured home to do that.

So be thankful of their efforts to keep Big Oil profitable.  Because spending even one dollar battery research or electric vehicles or even light rail is 'socialism'.

[Graybeard]

This isn't about appeasing the Muslim faith, it's about not making really stupid strategic blunders that are bound to infuriate them.

You mean like killing their women and children like Staff Sgt Loony just did. Looks like a lot more apologising needs to be done.

This will turn out to be even worse http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/12/world/asia/afghanistan-civilians-killed-american-soldier-held.html