Author Topic: What is the best way to convince a theist their beliefs are wrong using a forum  (Read 6028 times)

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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Some people desire the truth. Some people really, really desire the truth. Some people really, really, really, really, really reeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaallllllyyyyyyyyyy desire and are desperate for the truth.

I think that's called "projecting".

Look, you're being real nice and all that stuff, but you're talking to us like we're three year olds and sometime pretty soon you're probably going to want to give us a spanking for being so bad. We're not. And you're not. But I have no idea how people on absolutely opposite ends of the spectrum can talk about anything when one side spends all of the time being incredulous that the rest of us can't see what they see. (Hint: I'm talking about you.)

Now we may well have jumped on you a little bit over the alcohol thing, but we get a lot of that around here. People who found jesus when they were at the end of their rope and who can't figure out why we haven't too. I've had my bad days. Dead friends and relatives, injury, lost jobs, lost girlfriends, stuff stolen, a broken iPod and a few favorite tv shows cancelled. No combination of events has ever put me in such a funk that I needed outside help in the form of some unseeable being who loves me or else. I've never been so down in the dumps over anything that I needed a boost from invisible forces that don't do anything. I am a sane person who understands that sh*t happens and I learned long ago not to take it personal.

But your preachy efforts seem to assume I'm lost or looking or wanting or needing or hoping or seeking or something. None of those apply. And not only that, I have a perfectly workable and alternative explanations for reality that doesn't require a single deity. Yours or anyone else's.

I'm sixty years old and this summer will be the 50th anniversary of my atheism. I've never had a doubt and never had to have a doubt. I understand that I'm old enough that I could keel over any minute and I'm not worried about it. If I find out this year that I have the big C or a faulty ticker or my brain starts disintegrating, so be it. I have no illusion that I am in enough control of reality to avoid fates that others endure. And I'm not afraid. And I'm not looking for a "truth" that doesn't match reality.

Live with it.

Edit: I know I just posted something serious, but I just saw that we have a new member named darthpeanut113, and I have the voice of Alvin the Chipmunk saying "I am your father, Luke" stuck in my head. So whoever you are, please post something so I can at least hear what you type like.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 01:41:46 AM by ParkingPlaces »
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline ILOVEYOU

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So again:  Why assume a god-being intervened in your life, rather than your various experiences getting to you?
Communication.
Prayer is communication.
I know what I have prayed for. I know the words I have spoken that no one knows. I know my thoughts and actions. When GOD answers prayer, you know. And I don't mean the ones that keep you guessing, like how some of you mock prayer with a jug of milk.
I mean the personal ones. The ones that leave no room for doubt. Like if I pray for a new job and in the same day get three or four
job offers. This is just a scenario. Or if my plumbing goes out and the same day a neighbor comes by and fixes it for free. Many things.
But you guys are so hung up on why GOD "doesn't" heal amputees......

It's a life long relationship. You learn. And if GOD doesn't answer your prayer, it's not because He doesn't exist or doesn't care. There is something of greater importance that matters and takes precedence. Learn to listen.



Quote
What "day"?  Why the thinly-veiled fear mongering?  If you have experienced god talking to you, then you should be able to explain it, and how it differs from 'trick of the mind'.  So what's the holdup?   :blank:

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GOD-Allah is not a name but a Title. Allah is the Arabic word for GOD.

Well, you've got a problem, then, haven't you.

If they are worshiping God, and their God is the same as yours, then he is telling Muslims that the Jewish religion is a corrupt fake, and that Jesus was only a prophet, and that you can get to heaven by being nice to orphans.

« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 01:56:37 AM by Add Homonym »
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Offline Add Homonym

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    That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
    Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
    —Qur'an, sura 4 (An-Nisa) ayat 157-158[1]
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Some people desire the truth. Some people really, really desire the truth. Some people really, really, really, really, really reeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaallllllyyyyyyyyyy desire and are desperate for the truth.

I think that's called "projecting".

Look, you're being real nice and all that stuff, but you're talking to us like we're three year olds and sometime pretty soon you're probably going to want to give us a spanking for being so bad. We're not. And you're not. But I have no idea how people on absolutely opposite ends of the spectrum can talk about anything when one side spends all of the time being incredulous that the rest of us can't see what they see. (Hint: I'm talking about you.)

Now we may well have jumped on you a little bit over the alcohol thing, but we get a lot of that around here. People who found jesus when they were at the end of their rope and who can't figure out why we haven't too. I've had my bad days. Dead friends and relatives, injury, lost jobs, lost girlfriends, stuff stolen, a broken iPod and a few favorite tv shows cancelled. No combination of events has ever put me in such a funk that I needed outside help in the form of some unseeable being who loves me or else. I've never been so down in the dumps over anything that I needed a boost from invisible forces that don't do anything. I am a sane person who understands that sh*t happens and I learned long ago not to take it personal.

But your preachy efforts seem to assume I'm lost or looking or wanting or needing or hoping or seeking or something. None of those apply. And not only that, I have a perfectly workable and alternative explanations for reality that doesn't require a single deity. Yours or anyone else's.

I'm sixty years old and this summer will be the 50th anniversary of my atheism. I've never had a doubt and never had to have a doubt. I understand that I'm old enough that I could keel over any minute and I'm not worried about it. If I find out this year that I have the big C or a faulty ticker or my brain starts disintegrating, so be it. I have no illusion that I am in enough control of reality to avoid fates that others endure. And I'm not afraid. And I'm not looking for a "truth" that doesn't match reality.

Live with it.

Edit: I know I just posted something serious, but I just saw that we have a new member named darthpeanut113, and I have the voice of Alvin the Chipmunk saying "I am your father, Luke" stuck in my head. So whoever you are, please post something so I can at least hear what you type like.

I am not threatening you with anything. I actually believe your missing out on something special by choice. No threats here Buddy. Not everyone has had a bad day. You may be one of those people. IDK. I can't say that I have and that is not when I "found Jesus". My relationship started earlier than that but that situation did indeed increase my faith in Him. I don't know you or what kind of person you are. Only people who really know you and it gets more personal than that even.

I have a serious problem with religion. Not people though.

And I understand your unwillingness to convert to any religion much less surrender to a GOD you don't know. My relationship has been heartfelt and sincere with love. Always with love.

Tell me this....? Is it GOD shoving hell and damnation down your throats or is it other people saying it...? Or other people pointing fingers...? Lets see, am I supposed to where green underwear today. Is it 10 Our father's or 20 Hail Mary's...? All girls must remain silent in Church.......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, all the wars declared in The name of GOD is ridiculous. I could never condone that nor the actions of people who rape and molest children.

Seriously dude. I went through that hell alone and GOD saved me from it. Not this in particular but the religious aspects of it. He still is in ways.

It's more a matter of the heart. So, hey... yes I will tell you the truth and say that it saddens me that you do not wish to know GOD. But I know that My GOD is loving, merciful, forgiving and graceful. And yes, He is willing.


And all He has been saying all along is...

To love GOD with all of your heart, soul, strength and understanding.

And the other is just like it.
Love your neighbor as your self.

And to His disciples. Who He taught a lesson in love to....

Love each other as I have loved you.

That is why I love the parable of the good Samaritan. It sums it up pretty nicely.  Jesus actually rebukes the religious Priest but commends the lowly Samaritan for helping His neighbor. Heck, He could have been anyone. Gay, straight, white, black, latino. Jesus never mention religious affiliation other than the Priest and Levites who did not help this man. Only that a "man" had been beaten and robbed. Or the other nugget about what Jesus says about what religion pleases the Father. Basically helping the needy and the poor. Unselfish acts of love to regular people. Never mentioning any religious affiliation.

Yet you guys say you believe in all of these same things that Jesus was saying the whole time. And said it was these things that pleases GOD. And you do not know Him...?

He came forgiving sins and helping the sick and the poor. Rebuking the religious self righteous hypocrites who could not keep the entire laws themselves.

He never denied GOD though.








Offline ILOVEYOU

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GOD-Allah is not a name but a Title. Allah is the Arabic word for GOD.

Well, you've got a problem, then, haven't you.

If they are worshiping God, and their God is the same as yours, then he is telling Muslims that the Jewish religion is a corrupt fake, and that Jesus was only a prophet, and that you can get to heaven by being nice to orphans.

Thats not my decision to make.

Offline Add Homonym

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Is it GOD shoving hell and damnation down your throats or is it other people saying it...?

I started to reply, but then realized you were not a Christian.

Have you read the creed?
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Add Homonym

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Thats not my decision to make.

Well, you just contradicted yourself.

If God only tells you truth, as you just assured me, then why is he lying to 2 billion?

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline ILOVEYOU

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    That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
    Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
    —Qur'an, sura 4 (An-Nisa) ayat 157-158[1]

First off, I never said it was the same GOD. Just that Allah is the Arabic word for GOD. And yes, The Holy Bible and The Qur'an contradict each other. The same can be said for all religions. Even amongst the different sects of Christianity to radical, extremist Islam.

 

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Is it GOD shoving hell and damnation down your throats or is it other people saying it...?

I started to reply, but then realized you were not a Christian.

Have you read the creed?
Yes, I am a Christian but I am just a general believer who trusts in Jesus Christ. When some one says Christian now a days. Thats can mean several different things.

What creed...?

Offline sun_king

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First off, I never said it was the same GOD. Just that Allah is the Arabic word for GOD. And yes, The Holy Bible and The Qur'an contradict each other. The same can be said for all religions. Even amongst the different sects of Christianity to radical, extremist Islam.

Ref: The sentence in bold

Ever wonder why? Or better, ever figured out why?

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Thats not my decision to make.

Well, you just contradicted yourself.

If God only tells you truth, as you just assured me, then why is he lying to 2 billion?

He is not lying. Nor to them.

Offline Add Homonym

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Is it GOD shoving hell and damnation down your throats or is it other people saying it...?

I started to reply, but then realized you were not a Christian.

Have you read the creed?
Yes, I am a Christian but I am just a general believer who trusts in Jesus Christ. When some one says Christian now a days. Thats can mean several different things.

What creed...?

There are lots of creeds. Pick the one which you believe in.
http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/creeds.html

Quote
just a general believer who trusts in Jesus Christ.

The same people who told you to believe in JC, also told you that he preached hell. Why do you believe in Christ, rather than Allah or Elohim? You believe because they told you, so why do you reject nearly everything else they said?

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

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First off, I never said it was the same GOD.
Oh, yes you did.

Quote
Just that Allah is the Arabic word for GOD. And yes, The Holy Bible and The Qur'an contradict each other. The same can be said for all religions. Even amongst the different sects of Christianity to radical, extremist Islam.

GOD = Elohim
LORD = Yahweh
god = Jupiter, Venus, Shiva

You contradict Christianity
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline ILOVEYOU

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First off, I never said it was the same GOD. Just that Allah is the Arabic word for GOD. And yes, The Holy Bible and The Qur'an contradict each other. The same can be said for all religions. Even amongst the different sects of Christianity to radical, extremist Islam.

Ref: The sentence in bold

Ever wonder why? Or better, ever figured out why?

I do not know why. Just that there are over 3000 different religions in the world and over a thousand amongst Christianity alone. Again, from moderate to extreme Islam. Same amongst Judaism. From moderate to extreme.

I suppose the quarrel has been ongoing for a very long time but I do not however believe they are referencing the same GOD, even though they claim to be.

But there is only one person to have have came rebuking and challenging all religions. That was Jesus Christ. He challenges everyman to see If He is of GOD or not, considering the doctrine. Every religious and Political rule and He was murdered for it.

As a man, do I think Jesus could have done those miracles...? No

With GOD do I think He could have...? Absolutely




Offline Add Homonym

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I do not know why. Just that there are over 3000 different religions in the world and over a thousand amongst Christianity alone. Again, from moderate to extreme Islam. Same amongst Judaism. From moderate to extreme.

I suppose the quarrel has been ongoing for a very long time but I do not however believe they are referencing the same GOD, even though they claim to be.


So, which GOD are you talking about, then? Can we get in touch with him on a special frequency reserved for that GOD only? Your religion makes 3001, I suppose.

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But there is only one person to have have came rebuking and challenging all religions. That was Jesus Christ.

The people who told us that also told us about hell.

Quote
He challenges everyman to see If He is of GOD or not, considering the doctrine. Every religious and Political rule and He was murdered for it.

Lots of people have been murdered for claiming to be GOD when they are not.

Quote
With GOD do I think He could have...? Absolutely

Because the same Bible that tells me about hell, also tells me this.

If GOD only tells you the truth, then be a love and ask for the mass of the Higgs Boson.

Oh, wait, GOD only tells you about certain types of things truthfully: those things which agree with your PoV, and nothing which can be verified.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline ILOVEYOU

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The same people who told you to believe in JC, also told you that he preached hell. Why do you believe in Christ, rather than Allah or Elohim? You believe because they told you, so why do you reject nearly everything else they said?

No. I have made a conscious decision. Even if i suspected that at an early age, I still have had to make the conscious decision to remain in faith. Like most of you have left your faith or your religion, then your faith.

I still remain in faith. i always have because I am choosing to trust in GOD vs. religion. And if it is faith that pleases Him. I want to live by faith.
If it was religion that saved me, then I wouldn't have ever had a chance. Nothing but innocent faith, trusting in whom I can see by faith, not sight.

I am actually striving to love one another and be thoughtful of people. Letting go of un-forgiveness and choosing to forgive and let go. Help out where I am needed and thanking GOD everyday for it. Don't get the wrong impression that i am trying to portray myself as a perfect fundie. because I am far from it and I'm still not perfect, just human w/ emotion.

Offline ILOVEYOU

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There are other things of greater importance but somehow, I don't feel we agree. Goodnight.

Offline Add Homonym

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I don't feel we agree. Goodnight.

You don't agree with yourself.

You believe in certain parts of Christian doctrine, that you could only get from the Bible, but reject others parts of it, as if God is telling you which parts are correct.

Are you the Christ?
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Offline HAL

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So I asked you how you justified your belief. What I mean by that is, say I hear a crash in the kitchen at night. I might initially form a belief a burglar broke in. I have formed a belief. But then I get up and proceed to justify this belief by investigation. I go into the kitchen and find my cat knocked a cup off the counter. My belief was not justified. It was false - unjustified. If I had found a burglar there, my belief would have been justified - it would have been a true belief - or some would say - knowledge - a justified true belief.

First you said this -

It's a two part answer.

When I was first told to good news as a young child. I believed and was joyous. No indoctrination required. I just plainly heard and received, believing. Didn't even know scripture other than what I had heard.

I was just happy knowing that there is a GOD and He loves us. And I wanted to know Him. I didn't get all the religious aspects of everything and I still don't to this day.

Then a story and this -

Quote
To make a long story short......

But on GODS timing He did step in. And when He does, you will without a doubt know it. There is no mistaking that. That is why I say, those who know, know. Man, I hadn't even stepped in a church in over 10 years unless it was for a wedding or a funeral. It's been about a year since I've attended regularly. And I know GOD still loves me. And I know this by faith.

And when GOD forgave me I knew it. His grace is sufficient. And when you reached the bottom of the well, there is no other placed but to look up. When you know your actions deserved far worse than that which you've received. That changes a man. GODS grace changes people.

And I knew I deserved far worse. I did not deserve a second chance. And if/when GOD ever shows Himself mighty to you, you will never be the same. I am hoping it is for the better. It was for me. And I am still learning.

I am not GOD. He is more than capable. He is more than enough.

It's never been about religion, never has. It's a lesson in LOVE. Yes, I believe Jesus Christ spoke the truth and is my Savior. GOD is my Savior. There is no Savior without GOD.

I don't understand how you justified this belief in a god in your examples. All I can take from it is that you formed beliefs, but I can hardly see how they were justified. The same sort of mushy explanation comes from all religious people - no matter which religion or god. That's the problem I have with religious beliefs - I see no proper justification for them even after theists have explained why they believe. From a critical thinker's point of view, it's always an unjustified belief.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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ILOVEYOU

Your responses to me have been civil and sane and that is appreciated. But you might as well be telling me to paint all my windows black to improve the view or that the tires on my truck are superfluous and I should take them off to make it go faster. I no more need the love of a god (that I am sure doesn't exist anyway) than I need the tacit approval of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad before I can buy my next box of breakfast cereal.

Even if there were a god like you describe, he has nothing to offer me. Should I suddenly find out he does indeed exist, my opinion of his general competence would remain quite low and hence praise and such would not follow. And since there isn't one, such offers of his love are even less relevant.

I am sure you will continue to talk to the others on the subject but there is no need for us to continue this conversation, since neither of us is going to budge. Any response you might have to these words would sound exactly like every other response you have written and you might as well use that slightly revised version of the same old same old on someone else.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline screwtape

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To answer the OP, I don't know, but I'm working on it.  There is a whole section of psychology that is about how to persuade people and how to change their minds.  I read an article before, and may have posted it here, that indicated debate and direct confrontation do the exact opposite of what you are trying to accomplish.  It pushes people to redouble their resolve in their beliefs.   

I has been said here already - people will not change their minds unless they are ready for it. The key is preparing them to be ready for it. One way might be to get the patient to talk about aspects of belief they disagree with.  That might help them look at it critically.  It might also show where you and the patient are on common ground and it does not have to be an adversarial battle for every word. 

Another way might be to not discuss religion at all.  As kcrady said, just raise the sanity waterline. So often we are worlds apart when it comes to rational thinking.  We cannot even agree that the scientific method is a good idea or that invisible, intangible people do not operate the universe.  It will be a long process and one fraught with failure, but once you have someone who is rational, then you can actually talk to them.

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Offline Aaron123

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Communication.
Prayer is communication.
I know what I have prayed for. I know the words I have spoken that no one knows. I know my thoughts and actions. When GOD answers prayer, you know. And I don't mean the ones that keep you guessing, like how some of you mock prayer with a jug of milk.
I mean the personal ones. The ones that leave no room for doubt. Like if I pray for a new job and in the same day get three or four
job offers. This is just a scenario. Or if my plumbing goes out and the same day a neighbor comes by and fixes it for free. Many things.

These are prayers that leaves "no room" for doubt?!  Job offers are something that happens regardless if someone prays or not.  Likewise, sometimes, your neighbor is a nice guy.  What you're offering me is post hoc ergo propter hoc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc


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But you guys are so hung up on why GOD "doesn't" heal amputees......

When you give meaningless examples of "answered" prayers such as the ones above, it's no wonder that we're "hung up" on the amputee question.  God answers prayers to things that have some chance of happening anyway, but he doesn't answer prayers that would in fact, leave absolutely no doubt whatsoever that he did something?

You still wonder why we mock this crap with the milk jug example?!


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It's a life long relationship. You learn. And if GOD doesn't answer your prayer, it's not because He doesn't exist or doesn't care. There is something of greater importance that matters and takes precedence. Learn to listen.

AKA: if you prayed, and it didn't work, you didn't try hard enough.  Statements such as this are evidence that prayers are examples of confirmation bias at work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias


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What "day"?  Why the thinly-veiled fear mongering?  If you have experienced god talking to you, then you should be able to explain it, and how it differs from 'trick of the mind'.  So what's the holdup?   :blank:

You quoted this, but didn't comment on it.  Why?  I really want an answer to this.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline velkyn

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God would have to tell me He doesn't exist. 

Seriously... St. Thomas Aquinas explained it best,“To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.”  It's taken me 6 years to realize this.
  Funny how this wasn’t the way it was in your bible.  We had your supposed savior saying believe in my miracles as evidence to have faith.  Your god is such a poor thing now, unable to do any miracles at all and making humans have to make up reason why this god is not what it used to be.   To one who has faith in Krishna, no evidence is necessary, to one without faith in Krishna, no explanation is possible.

Quote
Old fogies like me are WAY to set in my ways to tell me otherwise.  There is NO ONE and nothing, not even Hutchins or Sheryl Crow or Dave Matthews, or Lance Armstrong, or HAL, or Janeane Garofalo or Bunny who can convince me, and that is because you don't accept the supernatural can exist without scientific evidence.  I believe it can and does exist above our experience (I am still trying to determine what qualitfies as evidence in your eyes, because most of you reject personal experience as evidence.  See converted atheist science fiction author to Catholic John C Wright http://www.scifiwright.com/ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Wright_(author)  he witnessed the virgin Mary several times over several months).
  People who are old can change their ways.  I’m sorry that you can’t.  You have declared that you are unwilling to change your ways and your mind is closed to anything that doesn’t agree with you.  How typical.

And BSD, why are you having so much trouble figuring out what evidence is?  Do you know nothing about using google?  How about if I help you:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence 

And my goodness, we have people from other religion claiming to see their gods too!  Does this mean that Ganesh is real just like your god?  Why or why not, BSD?   It should mean that he is just as real since you think that personal experience means that things are real.  I do expect you to answer me, BSD, since this will demonstrate if you actually are considering what we all say.  Show me your god is any more real than Ganesh. 
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You need to canvas the high schools and colleges to find someone who is willign to listen... wait...  atheist teachers and professors are already convincing students for you (this is not sarcasm, I believe this to be the truth).  So in a sense, you should be encouraged.
  From someone who believes things that cannot be shown to be true, exactly who cares what you think to be true?   And poor students, can’t think for themselves?  Then what can we think when pastors and priests and believers are doing their best to convince them that their imaginary god is true? 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline velkyn

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Communication.
Prayer is communication.
I know what I have prayed for. I know the words I have spoken that no one knows. I know my thoughts and actions. When GOD answers prayer, you know. And I don't mean the ones that keep you guessing, like how some of you mock prayer with a jug of milk.
I mean the personal ones. The ones that leave no room for doubt. Like if I pray for a new job and in the same day get three or four
job offers. This is just a scenario. Or if my plumbing goes out and the same day a neighbor comes by and fixes it for free. Many things.
But you guys are so hung up on why GOD "doesn't" heal amputees......

It's a life long relationship. You learn. And if GOD doesn't answer your prayer, it's not because He doesn't exist or doesn't care. There is something of greater importance that matters and takes precedence. Learn to listen.
  the reason we are "hung up" on your god's failures is that people like you claim that you got your god on speed dial and he'll do anything you ask.  The problem is that such selfish little people like yourself evidently don't ask for anythign that would actually help people and could be shown to be a real act of god.  No, you self-edit on what you ask and you often simply lie. 

this is why I find people like you quite vile.  You make threats, claim that you are such a special snowflake in your god's eyes, but with all of this supposed "power" you do nothing and show yourself to be full of bullshit.
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline ILOVEYOU

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So I asked you how you justified your belief. What I mean by that is, say I hear a crash in the kitchen at night. I might initially form a belief a burglar broke in. I have formed a belief. But then I get up and proceed to justify this belief by investigation. I go into the kitchen and find my cat knocked a cup off the counter. My belief was not justified. It was false - unjustified. If I had found a burglar there, my belief would have been justified - it would have been a true belief - or some would say - knowledge - a justified true belief.


OK, but we are not talking about a burglar nor a cat in this instance. We are talking about The Creator. GOD. The Almighty. Not just a mindless occurrence here.

That is the difference. We don't get to dictate GOD or demand anything for the matter. And if proof is what you are after, why not just simply listen to what Jesus said...? And try things His way.

If GOD really is Spirit, invisible and above all creation and not a physical thing, then is it any wonder that  science has yet to prove anything...? He is not part of the creation. He is above all creation. As it is said that His nature and qualities can be found in His creation but he The Creator is above all creation.

GOD does things everyday but how would you even know...? After all, If He is real and He is responsible for creation the natural laws as we know them, why wouldn't He operate in them...? Is it because people are far to worried about wanting GOD to perform a miracle to justify belief...? Why...? GOD owes us no explanation. We have been given life. A free gift. Not earning it nor deserving it. He owes no one anything. At least be thankful for that. Because if you have 1 thing in your life to be thankful for, then that is 1 thing more then if you have never been born at all. Even the bad times. Nothing, finite, gone. Yet here we are with this one chance of life, when we know how delicate it is and the things that satisfy our inner beings, how far things have been distorted from the truth. Does anyone even care anymore....? What does it take to make someone truly see and to change their ways. To love and to forgive, Something that changes a man from the inside out. Something so heartfelt that if a man could only feel, see, smell and taste and know that it is good. True Love.







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I don't understand how you justified this belief in a god in your examples. All I can take from it is that you formed beliefs, but I can hardly see how they were justified. The same sort of mushy explanation comes from all religious people - no matter which religion or god. That's the problem I have with religious beliefs - I see no proper justification for them even after theists have explained why they believe. From a critical thinker's point of view, it's always an unjustified belief.

In your opinion, As I understand that you don't believe in GOD, what is you estimated opinion on how long it will take for humanity to completely render humanity extinct at the rate things are going...? Seriously, think about it second. Do you even care...? What about your children's children one day..? And their children and their children..? Will humanity even make it that far...? And if so, how about the greedy people that are ruling over this world..? Is this what you really think life was really meant for and the way thing are intended to be...?

If something within you doesn't alarm you that things aren't right, then I do not know what will. And if nothing in your life  gives you inspiration and hope in GOD, then I do not know what else to say.

« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 01:08:18 PM by ILOVEYOU »

Offline ILOVEYOU

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ILOVEYOU

Your responses to me have been civil and sane and that is appreciated. But you might as well be telling me to paint all my windows black to improve the view or that the tires on my truck are superfluous and I should take them off to make it go faster. I no more need the love of a god (that I am sure doesn't exist anyway) than I need the tacit approval of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad before I can buy my next box of breakfast cereal.

Even if there were a god like you describe, he has nothing to offer me. Should I suddenly find out he does indeed exist, my opinion of his general competence would remain quite low and hence praise and such would not follow. And since there isn't one, such offers of his love are even less relevant.

I am sure you will continue to talk to the others on the subject but there is no need for us to continue this conversation, since neither of us is going to budge. Any response you might have to these words would sound exactly like every other response you have written and you might as well use that slightly revised version of the same old same old on someone else.
It's OK PP. I do not wish to make you upset with me. Have a wonderful day.

Offline The Wannabe

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For me the process of de-conversion was inevitable once I decided that Christianity was an institution that could be questioned.   After leaving behind the credulousness of my youth, i no longer felt "guilty" for reading books on philosophy and atheism, books that blatantly question religion at every turn.  The way i rationalized this "search for truth" as a Christian was the comforting thought that:  "If God exists, he will surely give me the answers to these age old questions of truth and meaning.  Reading books like the God Delusion will strengthen my faith, not absolve it!" 

As it turned out, the god of the bible didn't give me any answers, and i'm quite certain now of his non-existence.  Religion survives, at least in part, through a patented process of indoctrination and shame.  If we can somehow circumvent these deterrents and show the Christian/Muslim/Scientologist that there is no such thing as thought crime, and that it is assuredly not a blasphemous sin to question their (assuredly man made) beliefs, then they could quite possibly begin their own "search for truth".

Once a believer opens the door to rational inquiry and skepticism, it's very hard to maintain the required cognitive-dissonance that is vital to any, and every religion.
"I would believe only in a God that knows how to Dance."  -Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline Seppuku

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ILOVEYOU

A friend of mine who is also an atheist got 3 jobs offers in one day without prayer. Had it occurred to you that you might have been the most suitable candidate for those jobs? As for your neighbour, could it not be he's just a nice guy? I accidentally broke the glass in a picture frame in a shop, I offered to pay to replace it, but the glass guy whose shop was just opposite replace the glass for free, I insisted on paying because it was MY clumsiness, yet some people are just good willed. Prayer didn't make those things happen. So how many of your prayers go unanswered? But care not to notice and when coincidentally you pray and something goes your way you suddenly notice?

If God really answers your prayers, then maybe you could do us a favour. Prayer never worked for me when I truly believed in God, so I doubt it's going to work now that I'm an atheist. Instead of praying for selfish things, could you pray for the innocent children who are victims of war? Could you pray to reduce some of the pain and suffering in this world brought to innocents? Not all of them are heathens. Pray for the poor children who are targets of a Nigerian Evangelical Church's witch hunt (which involves witch burnings). Pray that no more children fall victim to paranoid exorcisms, of which many do not survive. Could you pray for the US to not elect a bigoted two-faced right wing Christian? Could you pray for victims of cancer to pull through?

Seriously, these would be some pretty noble feats and I'm sure God could spare the time for things that are so important. Especially if he can stop and offer you 3 jobs. I often see Christians go on about the power of prayer and wish to convince us things that would very likely happened without was an act of God. Many people in this world go without their prayers answered, and I'm talking incredibly important prayers, matters of life and death, not successful job interviews or a £500 scratch card. So I say to Christians who a 'blessed' with the power to have their prayers answered, please do something responsible with it.
“It is difficult to understand the universe if you only study one planet” - Miyamoto Musashi
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