Author Topic: The Probability of the Big Bang  (Read 22389 times)

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Offline nicetry54

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #783 on: November 11, 2013, 09:07:27 PM »
I don't claim to be an expert on the subject I have just recently learn more about it since I decided to do a paper on evolution and creation. And before I started this paper I figured it would be pretty balanced argument but I found that there is a lot less evidence than I thought for evolution. I went to that page its a lot to take in so I'll let you know how that goes and it will help me with my paper so thank you. I have done a lot of research and tried to be non bias on the subject. And I am currently in college if you must know. But what I was saying about winning if someone reduces to insulting is that if a person can't have an intellectual argument and state evidence for their case then what they say doesn't really matter that's where I get the "I win" part 

Offline Emily

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #784 on: November 11, 2013, 09:26:34 PM »
Are you still currently working on this paper?

It's really not the right approach to claim there is no evidence for the big bang based on a paper you are researching dealing with creationism and evolution. For the obvious the two (evolution and the big bang) are completely different theories of science, one dealing with physics and the other dealing with biology.

As for you claiming to "no being an expert", well then, don't take this the wrong way but that speaks for itself, now doesn't it. You claim there is no evidence for the big bang yet one, you're not an expert on it as you admitted, and two you only seem to be currently researching it. So to claim there is no evidence is poorly written. Perhaps "I have yet to find evidence in my research" would be better, and perhaps the people on this forum will lead you to the evidence that supports and shows how the big bang did, in fact, happen, and that will be helpful in your paper.

What are the sources you are using for your paper? I sure how some of the content of your paper comes from WMAP. What course is this paper for? What semester in college?

Welcome to the site, BTW.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 09:33:40 PM by Emily »
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #785 on: November 11, 2013, 10:00:30 PM »
You probably don't want to hear the latest scientific scuttlebutt, that the big bang happened inside of a black hole and that is where new universes come from.  No proof of that, but it is a possibility.
Piers Anthony actually wrote about something just like that a few years back in one of his Incarnations of Immortality series.  I always liked it, not the least of which is that actual humans have to fulfill the roles of the immortals, including God and the Devil.
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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #786 on: November 11, 2013, 10:07:00 PM »
Nicetry, what course and degree are you writing this paper for? I can see it possibly fitting into a Religious Studies degree, or a Humanities course of some sort, but it doesn't sound like the stuff of hard science.
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #787 on: November 11, 2013, 10:49:00 PM »
I don't claim to be an expert on the subject I have just recently learn more about it since I decided to do a paper on evolution and creation. And before I started this paper I figured it would be pretty balanced argument but I found that there is a lot less evidence than I thought for evolution. I went to that page its a lot to take in so I'll let you know how that goes and it will help me with my paper so thank you. I have done a lot of research and tried to be non bias on the subject. And I am currently in college if you must know. But what I was saying about winning if someone reduces to insulting is that if a person can't have an intellectual argument and state evidence for their case then what they say doesn't really matter that's where I get the "I win" part

Keep in mind that when you make a blanket statement, like you did in your first post when you said "A lot of you do not realize that there is ZERO evidence for the big bang", you immediately de-intellectualized the discussion. Science believes it has a lot of evidence for the big bang, and if you think that it is all bad evidence, that's fine. But you can't say it is not evidence. It might be bad evidence in your eyes. But it is still evidence. And dismissing is on one fell swoop and treating your statement as a fact in and of itself accomplishes nothing. In effect, you were insulting us by making it sound like we had nothing to back up our acceptance of the big bang theory as a highly plausible one.

That you disagree with the big bang theory is not the problem. That you didn't articulate one single counter-arguement is. That you think your statement about there being no proof provided, all by itself, all the information we needed to reassess the theory, and change our minds, was both trite and silly. If you expect better of us, you should be doing a bit better yourself.

Note: The above is not an insult. It is an observation. Should you take no measures clarify your position, I will go ahead and teach you about insults.

Added: How much proof for evolution were you expecting? Four or five gallons worth? 53.5 miles worth? 216° worth? How did you measure your expectation of evolution in order to find less than you expected? Because if tens of thousands of scientific papers, and museums and universities full of fossils, along with concurrent evidence from geologists and biologists and chemists isn't enough, it may be that your standards are the problem.

You are intellectually spoiled if you think that your expectations should dictate what constitutes sufficient proof.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 10:54:37 PM by ParkingPlaces »
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #788 on: November 12, 2013, 01:29:59 AM »
I don't claim to be an expert on the subject I have just recently learn more about it since I decided to do a paper on evolution and creation. And before I started this paper I figured it would be pretty balanced argument but I found that there is a lot less evidence than I thought for evolution. I went to that page its a lot to take in so I'll let you know how that goes and it will help me with my paper so thank you. I have done a lot of research and tried to be non bias on the subject. And I am currently in college if you must know. But what I was saying about winning if someone reduces to insulting is that if a person can't have an intellectual argument and state evidence for their case then what they say doesn't really matter that's where I get the "I win" part

Good person.

There is more evidence than you have seen. Whole libraries full. Scientists are not wasting their lives. Some relevant topics for theory are DNA, distribution of life forms and fossils. An interesting subject is the evolution of whales and dolphins from land animals.

For creation think about when the animals were allegedly created, thousands of years ago or millions? Also when the animals and people were allegedly created were they created as adults half way through their lives or as babies? If they were babies how did they look after themselves?
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #789 on: November 13, 2013, 04:29:29 PM »
I don't claim to be an expert on the subject I have just recently learn more about it since I decided to do a paper on evolution and creation. And before I started this paper I figured it would be pretty balanced argument but I found that there is a lot less evidence than I thought for evolution. I went to that page its a lot to take in so I'll let you know how that goes and it will help me with my paper so thank you. I have done a lot of research and tried to be non bias on the subject. And I am currently in college if you must know. But what I was saying about winning if someone reduces to insulting is that if a person can't have an intellectual argument and state evidence for their case then what they say doesn't really matter that's where I get the "I win" part

Hello, nicetry54.

Black dreadlocked atheist commie mommy, college professor, earth scientist, and big fat nerd here.  Boy, have you stepped in it. Your few postings so far don't give me any confidence that you know much about science.

Religious people seem to think that there is a big theory of everything science-y out there that combines all the evil atheist ideas to prove there is no god. We supposedly grab onto any crackpot concept, no matter how impossibly far-fetched to explain away god. So we can go on our happy little atheist ways, sneering in the face of the one true god Jehovah, or Allah, or Ahura Mazda while murdering our grandmas, barbecuing the neighbor's kitty-cat, group fornicating on the front lawn of the nearest megachurch.  &)

Other people have brought up the fact that the BBT in astrophysics does not have anything to do with the Theory of Evolution in biological science. Entirely different fields of science, with entirely different bodies of evidence. They are so unrelated that if one-- the BBT, say--was shown to be entirely false (which is pretty unlikely at this late date) the other one-- say evolutionary theory, say-- could still be completely valid. The entire universe as we know it could have been sneezed fully formed out of a gigantic god figure's nose.[1] And it still would not invalidate evolutionary theory. 

Do you believe that the Nobel Prize for physics is handed out to people who just make up stuff without any evidence that it might be true? Because there have been several awarded for work on the BBT.....and it's a lousy tv show, btw.
 1. Well, it couldn't have been, actually, because there is no evidence of that...
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #790 on: November 14, 2013, 09:26:42 AM »
I don't claim to be an expert on the subject I have just recently learn more about it since I decided to do a paper on evolution and creation. And before I started this paper I figured it would be pretty balanced argument but I found that there is a lot less evidence than I thought for evolution.

Wait, what? What exactly is this paper about? Is it abiogenisis? Is it evolution? Is it the Big Bang theory? Or, is it how to do a drive-by troll of an atheist forum?

And, why would you assume the argument would be "balanced"? Balanced on what, exactly? Are the "arguments" for the theory of gravity balanced enough for your liking?

No, homey, my guess is you didn't think they'd be balanced at all. I'd wager that you assumed your pastor/priest/indoctrinator had given the biblical creation story credence, in your mind, and proclaimed science as the work of the debil, so you thought that the rest of the world would be as gullible as yourself.

Quote
I went to that page its a lot to take in so I'll let you know how that goes and it will help me with my paper so thank you. I have done a lot of research and tried to be non bias on the subject. And I am currently in college if you must know.

I sure do hope that what you've stated here is true. NOTHING would please me more than to have you return here and tell us that you did indeed learn something about how our reality works.

Quote
But what I was saying about winning if someone reduces to insulting is that if a person can't have an intellectual argument and state evidence for their case then what they say doesn't really matter that's where I get the "I win" part

But you don't. You don't get the win because your feelings were hurt. Reality doesnt give a shit about your feelings. You only get the win if your argument is an accurate reflection of reality.

Are you winning?

BBT.....and it's a lousy tv show, btw.

Evidence?  ;)
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #791 on: November 15, 2013, 11:31:07 AM »


BBT.....and it's a lousy tv show, btw.

Evidence?  ;)
Laugh track.

All in the Family, Barney Miller and Soap could get away with that. But it's the 21st century, not 1974. Even us nerds have some taste. You can't buy us off with a few Star Trek references. Let us decide what's funny.  'Nuff said.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Nam

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #792 on: November 15, 2013, 09:19:05 PM »
Funniest show ever: 227.

Word.

-Nam

Offline Shaffy

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #793 on: November 15, 2013, 09:34:56 PM »
Please learn more about the subject..then talk to us ''Atheists''
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Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #794 on: November 24, 2013, 01:06:02 AM »
Please learn more about the subject..then talk to us ''Atheists''
-Shaffy

This post was directed at Nam, right?  ;)
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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #795 on: November 24, 2013, 01:59:49 PM »
I don't claim to be an expert on the subject I have just recently learn more about it since I decided to do a paper on evolution and creation. And before I started this paper I figured it would be pretty balanced argument...

I find this difficult to believe. It would require you knowing nothing about evolution and never having considered how living things arrived at the state they are presently in.

All your other posts tend to point to your having been brought up in some Christian sect that accepts creation. I suspect therefore that you started from a position of "God did it".
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Offline Nam

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #796 on: November 24, 2013, 04:38:04 PM »
Please learn more about the subject..then talk to us ''Atheists''
-Shaffy

This post was directed at Nam, right?  ;)

Hey, what I'd do?

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Offline Fiji

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #797 on: November 25, 2013, 01:52:12 AM »
Please learn more about the subject..then talk to us ''Atheists''
-Shaffy

This post was directed at Nam, right?  ;)

Hey, what I'd do?

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Offline Nam

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #798 on: November 25, 2013, 06:47:59 PM »
Please learn more about the subject..then talk to us ''Atheists''
-Shaffy

This post was directed at Nam, right?  ;)

Hey, what I'd do?

-Nam
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I can't help it. The quarter got stuck in the machine, and it just hasn't ceased.

:'(

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Offline Antidote

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #799 on: November 26, 2013, 01:15:19 AM »
Please learn more about the subject..then talk to us ''Atheists''
-Shaffy

This post was directed at Nam, right?  ;)

Hey, what I'd do?

-Nam
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I can't help it. The quarter got stuck in the machine, and it just hasn't ceased.

:'(

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Try harder ;)
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Offline Fiji

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #800 on: November 26, 2013, 01:48:09 AM »
I can't help it. The quarter got stuck in the machine, and it just hasn't ceased.

:'(

-Nam
I seriously misread that as "the Quaker got stuck"
Wow! Nam has a machine that runs on Quakers?!
What does it do?
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #801 on: November 26, 2013, 02:03:41 AM »
I seriously misread that as "the Quaker got stuck"
Wow! Nam has a machine that runs on Quakers?!
What does it do?
Makes his oatmeal.
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Offline Nam

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #802 on: November 26, 2013, 02:05:32 AM »
I can't help it. The quarter got stuck in the machine, and it just hasn't ceased.

:'(

-Nam
I seriously misread that as "the Quaker got stuck"
Wow! Nam has a machine that runs on Quakers?!
What does it do?

It quakes.

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #803 on: November 26, 2013, 10:23:19 AM »
Is that something like magic fingers?

Offline Jag

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #804 on: November 26, 2013, 11:31:34 AM »
^^^Yes, but you need the cheat code to start it.
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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #805 on: November 26, 2013, 11:34:46 AM »
^^^Yes, but you need the cheat code to start it.

Offline median

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #806 on: November 26, 2013, 11:58:12 AM »
I don't claim to be an expert on the subject I have just recently learn more about it since I decided to do a paper on evolution and creation. And before I started this paper I figured it would be pretty balanced argument but I found that there is a lot less evidence than I thought for evolution. I went to that page its a lot to take in so I'll let you know how that goes and it will help me with my paper so thank you. I have done a lot of research and tried to be non bias on the subject. And I am currently in college if you must know. But what I was saying about winning if someone reduces to insulting is that if a person can't have an intellectual argument and state evidence for their case then what they say doesn't really matter that's where I get the "I win" part

Your statement above demonstrates that you simply haven't looked for the evidence. You say you're in college? Have you actually gone to the biology department and spoken with the professors of biological anthropology, morphology, genetics, evolutionary biology? Where is this "balanced" mind? Do you know who Ken Miller is?

If you actually want to be 'fair and balanced' then you should read from those whom you disagree (and read lots!). Start with talkorigins.org, do some google searches, find DonExodus2 on Youtube and watch his videos (as well as Ken Miller - they are Christians btw), take some classes from anthropologists/paleontologists/biologists who do work in the field. This stuff is only hard to find for people who don't want to learn it.
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Offline Spinner198

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #807 on: January 11, 2014, 08:54:58 PM »
It's a silly way to argue against the Big Bang. It's like doubting a lotto win occurred because the odds against it are long.
Ever saw one of those "fake lotto ticket" videos? Ya, it's more like that. Without the pre-supposition that it MUST have happened the number becomes much more substantial.

Not to mention, this number deals with the origin of life given variables and the existence of lightning. The big bang supposedly originated from absolute nothingness which would have had no variables, laws, lightning, etc. to cause anything to happen.

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #808 on: January 12, 2014, 10:49:31 AM »
It's a silly way to argue against the Big Bang. It's like doubting a lotto win occurred because the odds against it are long.
Ever saw one of those "fake lotto ticket" videos? Ya, it's more like that. Without the pre-supposition that it MUST have happened the number becomes much more substantial.

Not to mention, this number deals with the origin of life given variables and the existence of lightning. The big bang supposedly originated from absolute nothingness which would have had no variables, laws, lightning, etc. to cause anything to happen.

This is a poor post.  Your analogy is opaque and overall you are lacking in explanation.  Plus you seem to be confusing abiogenesis with the Big Bang.  F minus.


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Offline median

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #809 on: January 17, 2014, 01:54:01 AM »
It's a silly way to argue against the Big Bang. It's like doubting a lotto win occurred because the odds against it are long.
Ever saw one of those "fake lotto ticket" videos? Ya, it's more like that. Without the pre-supposition that it MUST have happened the number becomes much more substantial.

Not to mention, this number deals with the origin of life given variables and the existence of lightning. The big bang supposedly originated from absolute nothingness which would have had no variables, laws, lightning, etc. to cause anything to happen.


Is that YOUR supposition? From where did you hear this 'supposedly' about absolute nothingness? Physicists in the field talk about a singularity and an expansion, not about some vague 'absolute nothingness'. Please get your facts straight.   
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #810 on: January 17, 2014, 05:11:26 PM »
One thing I have noticed over the years is how many religious folks eventually leave off trying to show how their god works in everyday life. Because they clearly can't.  Science has explained so many everyday things that the supernatural has [almost] no place anymore.

People accept that science has the answers to everyday questions. Even the "I don't see how evolution could be true because monkeys" theist drives a car, uses a computer and a cell phone to tell others how science does not work, cooks hybrid popcorn with microwaves, watches a CSI program on cable, and takes medicine when sick. In any given day, the ignorant, anti-science theist uses modern science almost non-stop.

Things that sent our terrified ancestors to search for sacrifices to offer the gods don't even phase us today. We no longer think god causes earthquakes or volcanoes. We know what causes the plague and can prevent or treat it. We save lives with antibiotics and heal amputees with all kinds of very advanced prosthetics. We can treat many forms of mental illness, are on the verge of creating vaccines for malaria and AIDS.

Science=billions and billions, as Carl Sagan would say. Religion=zero

So they latch onto the very edges of scientific knowledge to try to prove the existence of the supernatural. It's not like they really want to learn the science-- they have no intention of becoming theoretical physicists. They just want enough of the vocabulary so they can say, "Aha! They found the god particle, see? Even the atheist scientists have to admit there is a god! That means the bible is true!" Not realizing that the more we find out about the universe, the less need there is for any supernatural explanations.

Don't they themselves wonder why god always retreats into the area of the most difficult speculations, as science fills in the more obvious gaps of our knowledge?

Within my lifetime [I hope] we may 1)discover extra terrestrial life; and 2) create life in a laboratory setting. Then the Christians will suddenly find that the bible really meant "extra terrestrial" and "science lab" when it said "earth" all along.

At that point, all the bible-based theists will have left is the origin of the universe question.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.