The Probability of the Big Bang

[Aaron123]

It's incomplete?

Human knowledge is always incomplete.  That is way we continue to search for answers every day.

That's the "proof" of the Big Bang?

Your respond is a non sequitur.

Once again; you failed to do the research.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang#Observational_evidence

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/astronomy/bigbang.html

When will this answer develop? 

I do not have a crystal ball.  Ask someone that does.

Until then it's blind faith?

No.  The big bang theory and the theory of evolution are both supported by evidence.  "Goddidit" is not supported by evidence.

Goddunnit is just as good as your theory, at this point in time?

You're really hung up on this "my guess is as good as yours" thing, aren't you?

No.  It is not.  "Goddidit" does not involve thinking.  It does not involve reseach.  It does not involve observation.  It does not involve falsification.  It only involves "I give up thinking or encouraging others to try"

Perhaps if you took a little time to Do The Reseach, you might realize differently.  But of course, I expect even one minute is too much to ask from you... 

[rockv12]

Alzael,  you can ask me if God answers prayer.  I would say, YES, He does.  Do you want examples?  You can ask many others the same question.  You expect to ask for a new car and it to be sitting in your driveway?  Are you serious?  If this is proof that God doesn't exist, you need to try again.

[Alzael]

I've tried to express how evolution and "prior" is illogical. 

Yes, but since you explained it with faulty logic of your own and a noticeable lack of knowledge in regards to your subject matter it just made you look ridiculously stupid.

Everyone wants perfect logic and sense.  It will NEVER come. 

Totally untrue, but then you're hardly an authority on logic.

[rockv12]

But if there's frewill in heaven, you believe your god can tolerate sin in his presence? If not, you're going to need to explain some things. I can spell it out for you if your thoughts cannot reach that depth. Let me know.

Can He tolerate sin in His presence?  He is already.  What is your point?  You choose to not believe in God because things don't make sense to you?  And you haven't studied Scripture?  I suggest you do.

[Dante]

P.S.- I'm not thinking far beyond our capabilities. I'm merely thinking far beyond yours.

[Alzael]

  You expect to ask for a new car and it to be sitting in your driveway?  Are you serious?  If this is proof that God doesn't exist, you need to try again.

At what point did I say that I did? Please go ahead and point it out to me.

I think what I said was "So why don't we see this happening in real life?"

Now granted I don't speak fluent "whacko fundamentalist" but I'm fairly certain our respective tongues are somewhat similiar. So help me with the translation here.

At what point did that turn into this "You expect to ask for a new car and it to be sitting in your driveway?  Are you serious?  If this is proof that God doesn't exist, you need to try again. " Just ballpark the particular moment for me.

In the meantime, I'm sure you won't have any problem with the actual question that was asked. Please provide an example of someone actually praying for something and getting it. One that is actually verifiable. Shouldn't be too hard. Hell, if you're a true believer you should be able to whip up a prayer right now.

[rockv12]

Totally untrue, but then you're hardly an authority on logic.

You don't want logic?  What?  That's what you are trying to get from me.  Nothing makes sense.  God doesn't make sense to me, therefore He's not real.  Is that the summation of it?

Evolution.  Nobody has proven any of my questions.  I've asked time and time again how things evolved.  I got nothing but links to theories.  If you can prove how we evolved from a simple cell to now, go right ahead.  Educate me. 

[Alzael]

You don't want logic?  What?  That's what you are trying to get from me.  Nothing makes sense.  God doesn't make sense to me, therefore He's not real.  Is that the summation of it?

Evolution.  Nobody has proven any of my questions.  I've asked time and time again how things evolved.  I got nothing but links to theories.  If you can prove how we evolved from a simple cell to now, go right ahead.  Educate me.

Totally untrue, as in totally untrue that there is no such thing as perfect logic. But then avoiding the questions and making up Strawmen seems to be about the limits of your abilities.

I'm still waiting for a reply to the other previous points as well by the way. I'm totally sure that you're not avoiding them because they expose you as a liar who has nothing to work with and is simply trying to blow smoke. Really, I'm absolutely positive that isn't the reason.

[rockv12]

At what point did I say that I did? Please go ahead and point it out to me.

I think what I said was "So why don't we see this happening in real life?"

Now granted I don't speak fluent "whacko fundamentalist" but I'm fairly certain our respective tongues are somewhat similiar. So help me with the translation here.

At what point did that turn into this "You expect to ask for a new car and it to be sitting in your driveway?  Are you serious?  If this is proof that God doesn't exist, you need to try again. " Just ballpark the particular moment for me.

In the meantime, I'm sure you won't have any problem with the actual question that was asked. Please provide an example of someone actually praying for something and getting it. One that is actually verifiable. Shouldn't be too hard. Hell, if you're a true believer you should be able to whip up a prayer right now.

Oh my.  That's exactly what you said!  You expect God to do what He says He will do.  And prayer was an example of yours.  The Bible says "whatever you ask in my name, I will give it unto you".  So why can't I ask for a new car and get it?  That's what you asked.

Nothing I say will EVER make you satisfied.  It will only seem as coincidence to you.  You have to experience it firsthand.  So I'm not even gonna try.  But if God gave out cars, then what would that do to this world?  I have many proofs of God's work in my life, you really want them?  If you do and it will matter, then I'll bite....

[Aaron123]

You can fathom how everything got here?  You understand it?  I don't understand how God has always been.  You can't understand how matter has always been.  We both believe because there is no other answer.  Same thing.

You are doing nothing more than arguing ignorant/invoking the god of the gaps.

Stop it.  Just stop it already.  It is one of the worst arguments you could be making.

Now how this relates to evolution is HUGE!  It's completely related because....ummmm....because it is. 

*Not sure if serious response*

Evolution began at point (A)?  What happened before then?

Evolution started after life started.  Before there was life, there was no such thing as "evolution".  Simple as that.

It doesn't matter?  Nobody cares?  Why care?  We can't answer that.  We don't have ANY idea of the answer to how things got here...so let's ignore it?

Once again; the theory of evolution only concerns itself with the development of life.  Do you understand this?  Yes or no.

Second, you're thinking of abiogenesis, which is about the origin of life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis

If the idea of "life suddenly appearing" is what bothering you, then you should be discussing abiogenesis.  Leave the theory of evolution alone.  It has nothing to do with your beef.

Third; You're projecting.  Again.  "It doesn't matter?  Nobody cares?  Why care?" and "We don't have ANY idea of the answer... so let's ignore it" are what leads to "goddidit".

[rockv12]

I'm still waiting for a reply to the other previous points as well by the way. I'm totally sure that you're not avoiding them because they expose you as a liar who has nothing to work with and is simply trying to blow smoke. Really, I'm absolutely positive that isn't the reason.

You want a response to every single point you brought up above?  Sorry.  I can only type so much so fast.  You can't quote responses to every single point made and expect a specific response to every single one on here.  I respond to the important ones that catch my eye.  The others may be important so I don't want to avoid them.  Let's not call each other liars please.  We're just a couple guys arguing over things.  Questions are good.  Debate is good.  I really enjoy hearing questions about theology and such.  I suppose you do too, otherwise you'd be doing something else, eh?

[rockv12]

Once again; the theory of evolution only concerns itself with the development of life.  Do you understand this?  Yes or no.

Second, you're thinking of abiogenesis, which is about the origin of life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis

If the idea of "life suddenly appearing" is what bothering you, then you should be discussing abiogenesis.  Leave the theory of evolution alone.  It has nothing to do with your beef.

Third; You're projecting.  Again.  "It doesn't matter?  Nobody cares?  Why care?" and "We don't have ANY idea of the answer... so let's ignore it" are what leads to "goddidit".

I know!  This response gets typed over and over again.  There are different elements to the discussion.  But gosh, how does evolution begin without the material to fuel it?  That's ALL I'm asking.  So quit educating me on what I already know.  I just don't like when "proof" of evolution begins in the middle of the HUGE question.

[Dante]

So, if your god CAN tolerate sin in his presence, what is, I repeat, the big fucking deal with our life on this realm? Why the need for seperation of here and heaven.

If I wanted to study your mytholgy to find your answers, I wouldnt be asking you. I want your interpretation. Because, ya know, its not quite the same as most theist's.

[rockv12]

Look, to say, "Evolution is proven, it's a fact" and then turn around and say over and over that the Big Bang is a completely different topic and that I'm stupid to put the two together does nothing.  You say...."Evolution is proven, it's a fact, you have to understand how evolution works to understand it, but oh, the Big Bang, yea...we don't know how that happened or how things got here, but that's a different topic that is meaningless to the proof of evolution."  Does that pretty much sum it up?

[rockv12]

So, if your god CAN tolerate sin in his presence, what is, I repeat, the big fucking deal with our life on this realm? Why the need for seperation of here and heaven.

If I wanted to study your mytholgy to find your answers, I wouldnt be asking you. I want your interpretation. Because, ya know, its not quite the same as most theist's.

If you want a perfect, logical answer to that question, you simply won't get it.  Can God do such and such and why?  I can't answer every single question about God's character.  Will there be sin in heaven?  I don't know.  I don't think so.  Perhaps it's something to study.  We sin and God is omnipresent, therefore He tolerates it in His presence.  God is everywhere.  There's many things that theists are incorrect on too.  I don't believe in an eternal lake of fire where Uncle Joe will burn for eternity.  I think that's a misinterpretation of Scripture.  Do I understand every single thing about heaven, hell, and God?  NO. 

[Alzael]

Oh my.  That's exactly what you said!

No. Exactly what I said was "So why don't we see this happening in real life?"

  You expect God to do what He says He will do.  And prayer was an example of yours.  The Bible says "whatever you ask in my name, I will give it unto you".  So why can't I ask for a new car and get it?  That's what you asked.

No. Again, what I asked was why don't we see prayers answered in real life. Note how at no point I mentioned a car or any specific prayer as part of my point.

Nothing I say will EVER make you satisfied.  It will only seem as coincidence to you.

If you had evidence it would be easily distinguishable from coincidence.

You have to experience it firsthand.

Then it's not evidence. Also again, you said god answers prayers. If that statement has any truth to it you should be able to easily produce it. The bible says that you can. You say that you can, so why don't you?

So I'm not even gonna try.

So in other words, when called on to prove your claims you're going for cowardly theistic copout number 2.

But if God gave out cars, then what would that do to this world?

I don't know. It's a good thing I never asked for it, I suppose.

I have many proofs of God's work in my life, you really want them?  If you do and it will matter, then I'll bite....

Considering that you've spent how many pages now demanding evidence of everyone else, I think you probably should actually provide some evidence of your own claims. Providing that you won't shrink away this time like you've shriveled up away from everything else that's called you into account.

Let's see it. Remember though, actual evidence.

You want a response to every single point you brought up above?  Sorry.  I can only type so much so fast.  You can't quote responses to every single point made and expect a specific response to every single one on here.  I respond to the important ones that catch my eye.  The others may be important so I don't want to avoid them.  Let's not call each other liars please.  We're just a couple guys arguing over things.  Questions are good.  Debate is good.  I really enjoy hearing questions about theology and such.  I suppose you do too, otherwise you'd be doing something else, eh?

This might fly except that you avoided two entire posts. Posts which entirely happened to call you into account for the things you said and proved that you were either being dishonest deliberately, or entirely wrong in all of your claims. Given that you also just ran away from having to answer to be called out on gods claims in the bible, I think the assumption that you just ran away and ignored from those prior issues as well is a reasonable one to make. As for calling each other liars......well that's exactly what you've done, multiple times. I pointed them out. So unless you can justify how they weren't lies, I fail to see how it's not entirely accurate to call you such a thing.

Look, to say, "Evolution is proven, it's a fact" and then turn around and say over and over that the Big Bang is a completely different topic and that I'm stupid to put the two together does nothing.  You say...."Evolution is proven, it's a fact, you have to understand how evolution works to understand it, but oh, the Big Bang, yea...we don't know how that happened or how things got here, but that's a different topic that is meaningless to the proof of evolution."  Does that pretty much sum it up?

That's because they are two entirely different things. Your being unable to understand something that basic is not our fault. Try actually reading a science book for a change. Let me explain the concept; you see what you're doing now with the words on your computer screen? Open the book and do the exact same thing with the words written on the pieces of paper. You'll be surprised at how much you learn.

[Aaron123]

I know!  This response gets typed over and over again.  There are different elements to the discussion.  But gosh, how does evolution begin without the material to fuel it?  That's ALL I'm asking.  So quit educating me on what I already know.  I just don't like when "proof" of evolution begins in the middle of the HUGE question.

This respond proves you've learned nothing at all.

I've already outlined it in my respond: evolution only occurs when life is occuring.  The material that "fuels" evoultion is life itself and the environment that life is in.  If life ceases to be, then evolution ceases to be.

Also, you paint evolution as some mysterious, magicial, unfathomable, untouchable thing.  It is none of those things.  You would know that if you actually read a book by a credible source.  Which is something that's been pointed out to you only a million fucking times already.

[Alzael]

I know!  This response gets typed over and over again.

Then try listening to it.

But gosh, how does evolution begin without the material to fuel it?  That's ALL I'm asking.

And it's irrelevant in regards to proving whether evolution is true or not. Nor does it have anything to do with the theory. Just because you CAN ask a question, doesn't mean it's relevant.

So quit educating me on what I already know. 

But you don't know. Otherwise you wouldn't be asking. Your problem is that you're ignoring the answers.

I just don't like when "proof" of evolution begins in the middle of the HUGE question.

However you're asking different questions and expecting the same answer for each. How the universe began is one question. How life changes and evolves is an entirely different question.

If I were to ask how a car engine works, and then after having it explained to me I said. "Wait a minute, if you want me to buy that story you first have to tell how the universe was formed" I would be an idiot. Why do you find it so surprising that we react to you the same way?

Both questions have no relation to one another. If you can't understand something that simple then I weep for you.

[Aaron123]

Look, to say, "Evolution is proven, it's a fact"

"Proof" is for math and alcohol.

What we're dealing with in this topic is "evidence".  Big difference.

and then turn around and say over and over that the Big Bang is a completely different topic

If you would understand that the Big Bang is a completely different topic, then nobody would have to say it "over and over".

and that I'm stupid to put the two together does nothing.

I won't say you're stupid, but I will say that you're willfully, gleefully ignorant.

Though I admit, I'm not sure what the distinction is.

You say...."Evolution is proven, it's a fact,

I never used the word "proven"[1].  I used the word "evidence".  Big Difference.

you have to understand how evolution works to understand it,

*Big fat DUH here*

but oh, the Big Bang, yea...we don't know how that happened or how things got here,

Way to misrepresent me.

I said we don't know all the details.  I said that we are learning little by little every day.

I also said that this is not an excuse to insert "god" into the gaps in our knowledge.  However, you ignored this, since you were so eager to play with your silly putty god.

but that's a different topic that is meaningless to the proof of evolution."  Does that pretty much sum it up?

Well, aside from that "proof" thing, you got this part pretty much right.  That's something at least...

1.	At least, I don't think I did...

[DumpsterFire]

If god is omnipotent, he is by definition responsible for all that is: Heaven. Hell. Love. Hate. Joy. Sorrow. Sin. Life. Death. All that is. And he allows all of these thing to exist and thrive to this day.
You can't just cherry pick the good stuff and claim god isn't responsible for the bad unless you are willing to admit he is not all-powerful. To paraphrase Epicurus, if god is powerless to stop evil, why worship him?

Responsible for it?  Well, sort of.  First off, how is that proof that He doesn't exist?  Can't He be "mean" if He wants?  I don't get the point of arguing this.

Read my entire post again. This was not offered as proof god does not exist. The point is that god is either responsible for causing/allowing evil, or he is powerless to stop it. In either case, why is he deserving of worship? Why are you OK with a god who arbitrarily decides to be mean?

Second, if you study the Bible, you will understand more what my points are.  You will understand God and His actions.  Why are kids dying in Africa if God is all-powerful?  Good question.  Easy answer if you take the time to comprehend the answer utterly suspend logic and excuse the most indefensible things in this world to rationalize your belief system.  In short, there is no other way for God to act.  He lets things happen that we feel are "mean".  He can't interject into every bad thing that happens.

^^^I took the liberty of making this reply more honest and far less condescending.

The fact that there are innocent children suffering and dying in this world is the single biggest reason I cannot believe in, much less worship, your god. Do you really think anyone has ever seen children starving to death and thought "Wow, this really makes me appreciate god now"?
What would make more sense (if there actually was an omnipotent and omnibenevolent god who enforced free will) is for each individual to be punished relative to his bad choices. If my life was shit because I kept making bad (you would say sinful) choices while every god-worshipper around me was thriving, that would certainly compel me to give this god a try. That's how a god could uphold free will without allowing such extremely heinous things to occur. 
But of course, that's not what we get in this world. As it is, there are millions of innocent children who spend their lives in unimaginable suffering and ultimately die of hunger! We also have plenty of examples of evil people like Hitler, Pol Pot, and Kim Jong Il who acquire unimaginable power, wealth, and hey, way more fucking food than they could ever eat!

Such ridiculous extremes are not necessary to foster individual free will, and any god that allows them is not worthy of worship. Why do you think that he is?

[Graybeard]

Alzael,  you can ask me if God answers prayer.  I would say, YES, He does.  Do you want examples? 

The only examples you could possibly give are examples where you say, "There! God did it!"

With equal authority, I could say, "There! The Easter Bunny did it!"

[Lurking]

....There's proof all around us of a world-wide flood. ....

In my country, there's no evidence at all that the whole country was ever covered by one flood. None at all. If you think you have evidence to the contrary, feel free to present it.

If you can't, I would keep on thinking that you are just another liar.

You repeating a lie won't turn that lie into the truth.

[pianodwarf]

You're presuming an awful lot. Where is your evidence of any of these claims?

The Bible.

The bible is not evidence.  The bible is the claim that requires evidence.

[pianodwarf]

I was completely aware of that verse and how to defend it.  Did I remember exactly what "rah" meant?  No.  Did I use a dictionary or the internet?  Yes.

Is it your contention, then, that Adam and Eve ate from the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Calamity or Disaster"?  The word "rah" is used there just as it is in Isaiah.

[pianodwarf]

We sinned.

"We" did no such thing.  We weren't even there.

[kaziglu bey]

The original Hebrew word used is "rah" and it does not necessarily mean moral evil.  It means calamity and distress.  It does NOT say God created evil.

You say that it does not NECESSARILY mean moral evil. So, it still COULD mean moral evil. Seeing as we are talking about the Bible, and moral evil is one of its favorite subjects, it certainly seems WITHIN THE CONTEXT of the rest of the Bible. And since when are calamity and distress GOOD things? Also its nice of you to admit that the Bible contains translation errors. We should DEFINITELY use an ancient and obsolete book that has not been translated properly and uses ambiguous language as the guidebook for our entire life. If I was all powerful, that's EXACTLY the medium I would choose to deliver my message.   

You know, your defense here would almost be meaningful, except that throughout the Bible we have plenty of examples of God doing evil.

Also, you said "Is there such thing as darkness?  No, it's the absence of light." yet this passage clearly has God saying that he CREATES darkness. In order to create something, it necessarily has to exist post-creation. How can God create something that does NOT exist?

Even your refutation of my objection is full of problems. That's the problem with faith. It always has to make excuses for the problems with the Bible, yet those excuses inevitably point out further issues with the Bible. You are still left with having to explain why the Bible does not mean what it says or say what it means. Why would God choose such an imperfect and unreliable means to transmit his message? If he can motivate himself enough to destroy all of his own creation, surely he ought to be able to effectively communicate a message. Yet he can't.

The best you have done here is show that God might not create evil. Yet you don't feel confident enough to say that the word meaning "evil" in this case NEVER means evil. It just doesn't necessarily mean evil. I wonder if you give this much care to all potential cases where the meaning of such words is misconstrued to mean "moral evil", or if you only do in in cases such as this, where you need to find a reason to show that the Bible is not BS. My guess would be the latter.

Errors in translation, or consistency of translation, or meaning of translation, or interpretation of translations, is a problem for you, not me. You're the one who thinks that a 600 year old guy somehow crossed the ocean to continents that are never mentioned in the Bible (because no one knew that they even existed). This same old guy somehow captured, alive and without modern tranquilizers or restraining methods, a mating pair of wolverines (or 7 pairs, the Bible isn't really sure how many pairs of each animal Noah took). A wolverine can tear a moose limb from limb just like a Wookie, in spite of the moose being about 20 times its size. But yet we HAVE to believe that an ancient drunk did this for EVERY SPECIES ON EARTH?!?! Ok. sure. You can have "evil" mean "not moral evil". You've still got a LOT of work to do.

[kaziglu bey]

Is it your contention, then, that Adam and Eve ate from the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Calamity or Disaster"?  The word "rah" is used there just as it is in Isaiah.

Thank you pianodwarf for demonstrating a point I was attempting to make in my post. I think that is a pretty good question, I would love to see rockv12's answer to this. Caught in his own web, he is.

[Lurking]

It has EVERYTHING to do with biological evolution!

No, it doesn't.

The Theory of Evolution deals with what happened to life after it started. That's been true since 1859 since a guy called Charles Darwin wrote a book called "Origin of Species". The Theory of Evolution deals with the origin of species. Not the origin of the universe or stars or planets or rocks or anything like that.   

  You can't spell "evolution" u-t-i-o-n.

The word 'evolution" comes from a Latin word, evolutio, which means "unrolling".
 
How the Universe or stars or planets, etc. “unrolled” would not influence the Theory of Evolution, which is defined as:  “Evolution is any change across successive generations in the heritable characteristics of biological populations. Evolutionary processes give rise to diversity at every level of biological organisation, including species, individual organisms and molecules such as DNA and proteins.”

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

Your wishful thinking won’t change it. 

It has EVERYTHING to do with biological evolution!

Not true at all. How the universe unrolled won’t change the fact that life changes with every generation.

You have to include the first half of the word also.  Where did things come from to offer biological evolution fuel to function?

My “theory” is that Brahma had a big shit and passed some life through his bowels one day when he had diarrhea.

The Theory of Evolution describes what happened to that first life after that great shit by Brahma. I romantisise that great shit, too: he had no toilet around, then he put two rocks together, just made it in time by sitting on it putting his two butt-cheeks on those rocks, and admiring the wonderful view while enjoying the relief of just letting it all go. (I have experienced this feeling out in the field: there's no better feeling than a good shit after trying to hold on for a long time).

  That requires more than simply starting with life evolving.

Life actually didn’t just start by evolving. It had to be there before starting to evolve. Life started in other ways.
 
 Remember, the Theory of Evolution states:    “Evolution is any change across successive generations in the heritable characteristics of biological populations. Evolutionary processes give rise to diversity at every level of biological organisation, including species, individual organisms and molecules such as DNA and proteins.”

Before the "first life" there were no previous generations!
Although it is difficult to define life. Is a prion an example of life?

[Lurking]

God didn't create sin or cancer or death, etc.

So, your god did not create everything? Is that what you’re saying?