The Probability of the Big Bang

[kaziglu bey]

Kb, he resembles a Unitarian. Church is for community and Jesus is a symbolic figure. People have this need ti do good, and pick some ideas from mythical Jesus as a guide.

No need for son of god and virgins.

His Wiki describes him as an "Evangelical Christian" and a "serious Christian". That doesn't really sound Unitarian to me. Particularly since Unitarian churches sometimes have openly atheist pastors. I wouldn't consider them someone a "serious Christian" is necessarily going to be drawn to. It just seems like he is pretty openly Christian, but just has his own sort of spin on it, in an attempt to compromise between his reason and his "spiritual" life. It really reeks of SPAG to me. I realize that this guy is obviously smarter than I will ever be, but that doesn't mean I have to believe everything he says, or that his beliefs would be above my criticism. This isn't a jab at you, but it just seems to me that he is definitely a Christian and not a Unitarian.

[rockv12]

aw, how sweet, rockv is lying even more and more.  I do love to watch theists act as the best argument against the faith they claim to have with their outrageous actions. Way to go in willfully ignoring evidence and avoiding being educated, rockv! I did enjoy writing my post in the secure knowledge that you would lie again.  Still keeping up with the stupidity that no one notices your lies and that you’ve been answered repeatedly.  Well, dear, at least you are consistent.  Lying, dodging, moving the goalposts, ignoring requests and questions put to you.  Ah, a religion based on lies, fear and greed.  What a good one!

I'm still confused as heck as to what you're talking about.  Lies?  What's going on here?  When have I lied?

[rockv12]

I already did.  Keyboards, monitors, mouses, speakers, computers themselves.  They're all designed for specific purposes, and it can be clearly demonstrated what those purposes are and that someone did design them.  Yet the best you can do is to point out things like the fact that the penis and vagina fit together as evidence of design.

I'm at a loss.  You think a keyboard is a better example of a design than our human body?  Than the human brain?  Than the eyeball or cochlea?  What keyboard do you play on?  Wow.

[kaziglu bey]

Good question.   But it's one of those that can't be answered. When was the beginning of time?  What happened before that?  Where's the edge of the universe?  How can something NOT have a beginning?

If these questions are unanswerable, why attempt to explain them by inserting God into the equation? It's entirely unnecessary, and doesn't serve to further our knowledge of how things work or provide any explanation or understanding of the Universe. Occam's Razor says god has to go.

We HAVE to accept it.  We HAVE to. 

We don't have to accept God as an explanation of anything, nor do we have to accept that his essence is beyond our understanding. Most of us here already understand that god(s) are all man made. If such a designer did exist, then in order to impact the universe in such a way as to responsible for its creation and functioning, then he would be an elephant in the room. His presence would be substantial, obvious, and objective. It is not. Hubble has yet to take a picture of God.

But we DO know, through the logic and reasoning we can understand, that things don't form themselves physically.

What is that even supposed to mean? Planets and stars form from matter that exerts a gravitational pull to an extent that it is eventually drawn together to form the Sun, Earth, Solar system, etc. These things "form themselves physically" through gravity and the general operating principles of the universe. This is stuff that has been known for quite some time now, it's not like it's a secret, and the fact that you apparently overlook this is somewhat disturbing. There is no God required to explain any of this. Newton's laws don't have a "God variable". They don't NEED one. Neither does any other mathematical equation have such a thing. In fact, if God was a potential factor in all situations, the laws of physics would have no meaningful predictive or explanatory value, because there would always be an unfactorable variable that could throw anything and everything off. Yet, the Universe still operates the way physics predicts it will, and the more knowledge we gain, the better our predictions become. Unfortunately the same can't be said for religion.

[Tero]

Kb, you are probably right, he resembles more that Borg guy who had to find his Jesus guy again.

I just have more experience with the Unitarians, an umbrella group of liberals.

[jaimehlers]

I already did.  Keyboards, monitors, mouses, speakers, computers themselves.  They're all designed for specific purposes, and it can be clearly demonstrated what those purposes are and that someone did design them.  Yet the best you can do is to point out things like the fact that the penis and vagina fit together as evidence of design.

I'm at a loss.  You think a keyboard is a better example of a design than our human body?  Than the human brain?  Than the eyeball or cochlea?  What keyboard do you play on?  Wow.

That is not what I said, and you know it (because I quoted the statement of yours that I was responding to), and I'm getting rather tired of your blatant attempts to twist what everyone else says to fit your own preconceptions, regardless of what it actually meant.

My above statement was in response to your question, quoted below:

If you can't call that a design, I don't know what you would call a design?  Can you show a design example for me that pleases you?

I was listing things that were examples of design.  I do not consider the human body, or brain, or eyeball, or cochlea, to be examples of things that were designed, and no matter what kind of strawman argument you try to attribute to me, you can't twist my arguments around to fit your ridiculous presumption that something complex must have been designed simply because you don't understand how else it might have come about.

You have a conclusion that you're trying to fit the facts to, but it doesn't work, because you have to twist the facts out of recognition in order to make them fit.  It's like saying you can fit a square peg in a round hole by cutting off the corners.  The worst part of your ridiculousness is that you presume that things can't have happened in any way but that which the Bible describes, despite the fact that the Bible is a collection of metaphorical tales which makes no sense at all when you try to take it as literal fact.  And that's leaving aside the various and sundry errors the Bible itself has.

[velkyn]

aw, how sweet, rockv is lying even more and more.  I do love to watch theists act as the best argument against the faith they claim to have with their outrageous actions. Way to go in willfully ignoring evidence and avoiding being educated, rockv! I did enjoy writing my post in the secure knowledge that you would lie again.  Still keeping up with the stupidity that no one notices your lies and that you’ve been answered repeatedly.  Well, dear, at least you are consistent.  Lying, dodging, moving the goalposts, ignoring requests and questions put to you.  Ah, a religion based on lies, fear and greed.  What a good one!

I'm still confused as heck as to what you're talking about.  Lies?  What's going on here?  When have I lied?

Lying about this doesn't help either.  You've claimed that natural selection isn't evolutionary theory.  That's a lie.  Youv'e claimed that no one has answered your questions.  That's a whole bunch of lies. 

and rockv, you've claimed that it's *your* god respoinsible for creation.  So, show your evidence.  Or is that going to be one more baseless claim, a lie?

[screwtape]

How can something NOT have a beginning?

Where is the beginning of a circle? 

You ask these questions without putting even the slightest effort into answer them yourself.  Or rather, you are so arrogant as to presume that because you do not already have the answer, no one else who has ever lived or ever will live could possibly have an answer.

You suck.

But we DO know, through the logic and reasoning we can understand, that things don't form themselves physically.

Physically?  Is that your preemptive escape clause so when you are asked, "an just how to gods form themselves?"  you can say, "DUH! Gods aren't physical!" 

[rockv12]

We don't have to accept God as an explanation of anything, nor do we have to accept that his essence is beyond our understanding. Most of us here already understand that god(s) are all man made. If such a designer did exist, then in order to impact the universe in such a way as to responsible for its creation and functioning, then he would be an elephant in the room. His presence would be substantial, obvious, and objective. It is not. Hubble has yet to take a picture of God.

But we DO know, through the logic and reasoning we can understand, that things don't form themselves physically.

You didn't read what I wrote.  I said we HAVE to accept the fact that we can't answer some questions.  We can't say when time began, nor can we fathom the idea of eternity.  Where did everything come from?  The elements, the gases, the matter?  That's what I was talking about.  We HAVE to accept the fact that things have always been floating in existence.  That just doesn't make sense to us!  Where did everything come from?  Can you answer that?  No, you can't.  I can't answer how a God may have been floating in existence for eternity.  We both have to concede this fact.

[rockv12]

Lying about this doesn't help either.  You've claimed that natural selection isn't evolutionary theory.  That's a lie.  Youv'e claimed that no one has answered your questions.  That's a whole bunch of lies. 

and rockv, you've claimed that it's *your* god respoinsible for creation.  So, show your evidence.  Or is that going to be one more baseless claim, a lie?

A lie is when you knowingly tell a false truth.  I believe it to be true, therefore, it's NOT a lie.  Please don't call me a liar.  That's kinda mean actually.  I haven't called you a liar, and I think you have told false things to me, but you believe them to be true.  Therefore, you haven't lied to me either.  But calling someone a liar is a huge insult, when the other person doesn't think they are lying.  Get it?  Can't you see how that's rather rude?    And I'm screwing up the quotes in these answers, sorry. 

[rockv12]

Where is the beginning of a circle? 

You honestly don't see my point?  You make a circle analogy?  When did time begin?  Go back in your head to the beginning of everything....how did it happen and start?  Shapes are not applicable and you know it.

[rockv12]

I was listing things that were examples of design.  I do not consider the human body, or brain, or eyeball, or cochlea, to be examples of things that were designed,

The brain doesn't look like a design?  Working parts placed in order to achieve a goal?  That's not a design?  Why am I in here arguing this, OMG. This is ridiculous.  If a keyboard and computer monitor are "designs", then how is the human body not a design?  I'm so confused as to how you can't see this, it's rather blowing my mind...

[sun_king]

You honestly don't see my point?  You make a circle analogy?  When did time begin?  Go back in your head to the beginning of everything....how did it happen and start?  Shapes are not applicable and you know it.

Oh, you want us to see your point now???

How many times have you evaded the question? Who made your bloody god?

Wanna get back to the beginning of everything? You first, who made your moron of a god? Get your head to the beginning or up somewhere you think its very dark.

[kaziglu bey]

You didn't read what I wrote.

I most certainly did, several times to ensure clarity.

I said we HAVE to accept the fact that we can't answer some questions. We can't say when time began, nor can we fathom the idea of eternity.

I agree there, there are questions we can't answer. Yet. Maybe someday we will know the answer, and it wont have anything to do with your god nor the god of anyone else. 

Where did everything come from?  The elements, the gases, the matter?

Well, most elements are formed by stars, that's pretty well known by now.

That's what I was talking about.  We HAVE to accept the fact that things have always been floating in existence.  That just doesn't make sense to us!  Where did everything come from?  Can you answer that?  No, you can't.

No but to lump God into this same category as you do next

I can't answer how a God may have been floating in existence for eternity.  We both have to concede this fact.

in fact I don't have to concede this. There's no NEED to answer such a question. Just as there is no need to answer how the Leprechauns find the end of the rainbow. You'll never know, because you are dealing with something founded in fantasy, and to search for clues to its nature in the real world is a futile and irrational undertaking.

[velkyn]

A lie is when you knowingly tell a false truth.  I believe it to be true, therefore, it's NOT a lie.  Please don't call me a liar.  That's kinda mean actually.  I haven't called you a liar, and I think you have told false things to me, but you believe them to be true.  Therefore, you haven't lied to me either.  But calling someone a liar is a huge insult, when the other person doesn't think they are lying.  Get it?  Can't you see how that's rather rude?    And I'm screwing up the quotes in these answers, sorry.

That doesn’t work.  You have been shown that you are wrong and you keep trying to claim that since you believe something that makes it true and now, that you believe something is true that makes it not a lie.  It doesn’t. You cannot claim ignorance anymore as an excuse.  You have been shown repeatedly that natural selection is part and parcel of evolutionary theory.  What you “believe” makes no different in the facts.  You intentionally repeat falsehoods.  You are a liar, and an amazingly poor one.  You may whine and try to call me mean and rude for describing exactly what you are. It’s a fact, no matter how much you try to play the martyr card.  Poor thing, hoist by your own petard.

You are welcome to call me a liar if I have lied.  Now, rockv, give me the evidence that supports your claim that your particular god created the universe.  I’m waiting and all I’m seeing is more lies and more whining.  I’m guessing you have nothing and are desperately trying to get out of the corner you’ve painted yourself in.   

[kaziglu bey]

The brain doesn't look like a design?  Working parts placed in order to achieve a goal?  That's not a design?  Why am I in here arguing this, OMG. This is ridiculous.  If a keyboard and computer monitor are "designs", then how is the human body not a design?  I'm so confused as to how you can't see this, it's rather blowing my mind...

Please watch the video I posted for your benefit. The human body is not intelligently designed. We eat drink and breathe through the same hole, guaranteeing a risk of choking to death. We reproduce with organs placed in the same area as our waste disposal system. People can be born with and afflicted by an incredible variety of ailments and defects. My ex brother in law has agammaglobulinemia. This means, according to your worldview, that he was born (DESIGNED) such that his body is not naturally able to produce an immune response. Note that this is not a minor and easily correctable defect. This makes him very susceptible to illness, and even the slightest infection could kill him. He was recently diagnosed with Hodgkins Lymphoma (was that intelligently designed too?).

Others are born with things such as microcephaly, a condition in which the brain is significantly diminished in mass, and therefore function. Such individuals have very little chance of ever functioning at a normal level, and are often incapable of speech, have poor coordination, and have very limited learning potential. Is this an example of intelligent design?

Some people are born with other, less immediately recognizable mental defects, that lead to schizophrenia, sociopathic behavior, dissociative identity disorder, etc. Is that Intelligent Design?

Some people are born missing organs or limbs entirely. There are twins born fused together, and only medical science can remedy it. Is that Intelligent Design?

If the human body was designed, the designer was far from intelligent, and indeed, appears to be incompetent.

[rockv12]

Please watch the video I posted for your benefit. The human body is not intelligently designed. We eat drink and breathe through the same hole, guaranteeing a risk of choking to death. We reproduce with organs placed in the same area as our waste disposal system. People can be born with and afflicted by an incredible variety of ailments and defects. My ex brother in law has agammaglobulinemia. This means, according to your worldview, that he was born (DESIGNED) such that his body is not naturally able to produce an immune response. Note that this is not a minor and easily correctable defect. This makes him very susceptible to illness, and even the slightest infection could kill him. He was recently diagnosed with Hodgkins Lymphoma (was that intelligently designed too?).

Others are born with things such as microcephaly, a condition in which the brain is significantly diminished in mass, and therefore function. Such individuals have very little chance of ever functioning at a normal level, and are often incapable of speech, have poor coordination, and have very limited learning potential. Is this an example of intelligent design?

Some people are born with other, less immediately recognizable mental defects, that lead to schizophrenia, sociopathic behavior, dissociative identity disorder, etc. Is that Intelligent Design?

Some people are born missing organs or limbs entirely. There are twins born fused together, and only medical science can remedy it. Is that Intelligent Design?

If the human body was designed, the designer was far from intelligent, and indeed, appears to be incompetent.

These are simple questions to answer, if you understand God and the Bible.  Shall I try to explain?

We were created perfect in the Garden of Eden.  After man sinned, God kicked us out and let nature have it's way on us.  We did it to ourselves with sin.  But why am I explaining this to you, you don't believe in the Bible...so...

Just because some people choke on water and get sick, doesn't mean the pharynx and immune system are bad designs.  Oh man, do you really understand how perfectly the pharynx and esophagus work?  It's amazing!  It actually proves how silly evolution is.  Without everything working perfectly together, everyone would aspirate and die. 

[One Above All]

So a perfect being can sin? What does that say about your god? How are we to know that your god hasn't sinned before?

[Aaron123]

We were created perfect in the Garden of Eden.  After man sinned, God kicked us out and let nature have it's way on us.  We did it to ourselves with sin.  But why am I explaining this to you, you don't believe in the Bible...so...

Animals are born with birth defects.  At what point did the animals sin?

Just because some people choke on water and get sick, doesn't mean the pharynx and immune system are bad designs.  Oh man, do you really understand how perfectly the pharynx and esophagus work?  It's amazing!  It actually proves how silly evolution is.  Without everything working perfectly together, everyone would aspirate and die.

If the esophagus allows for choking, it's clearly a design flaw.  Thus, it is not "perfect".

[rockv12]

A lie is when you knowingly tell a false truth.  I believe it to be true, therefore, it's NOT a lie.  Please don't call me a liar.  That's kinda mean actually.  I haven't called you a liar, and I think you have told false things to me, but you believe them to be true.  Therefore, you haven't lied to me either.  But calling someone a liar is a huge insult, when the other person doesn't think they are lying.  Get it?  Can't you see how that's rather rude?    And I'm screwing up the quotes in these answers, sorry.

That doesn’t work.  You have been shown that you are wrong and you keep trying to claim that since you believe something that makes it true and now, that you believe something is true that makes it not a lie.  It doesn’t. You cannot claim ignorance anymore as an excuse.  You have been shown repeatedly that natural selection is part and parcel of evolutionary theory.  What you “believe” makes no different in the facts.  You intentionally repeat falsehoods.  You are a liar, and an amazingly poor one.  You may whine and try to call me mean and rude for describing exactly what you are. It’s a fact, no matter how much you try to play the martyr card.  Poor thing, hoist by your own petard.

You are welcome to call me a liar if I have lied.  Now, rockv, give me the evidence that supports your claim that your particular god created the universe.  I’m waiting and all I’m seeing is more lies and more whining.  I’m guessing you have nothing and are desperately trying to get out of the corner you’ve painted yourself in.

But I haven't been shown I'm wrong!  I've asked many times to prove evolution, and I get assumptions. 

My particular God?  I'm just trying to get people to realize that there's something out there that we can't explain that must have driven the creation of life.  My God should be discussed in a different topic thread.  My beliefs come from the Bible, as I believe it to be infallible.  But again, that's another topic, I guess.

[rockv12]

If the esophagus allows for choking, it's clearly a design flaw.  Thus, it is not "perfect".

It doesn't allow for choking.....it works great.  We can't swim underwater, that doesn't mean we are a poor design...You got a better system that would work?  Go ahead and show it and prove that it's a better design.

 And I don't see how pointing out silly little potential trouble spots proves that it's NOT a design.  I mean, what do you want?

[velkyn]

These are simple questions to answer, if you understand God and the Bible.  Shall I try to explain?

God, a imaginary deity.  NO evidence has been given by you, rockv, to show it exists.  Bible a book purportedly by this god and has nothing to support that any of the essential events in it ever happened. 

We were created perfect in the Garden of Eden.  After man sinned, God kicked us out and let nature have it's way on us.  We did it to ourselves with sin.  But why am I explaining this to you, you don't believe in the Bible...so...

No evidence of any of these things.  It’s also cute to see you try to claim that “nature” is something separate from your god.  You’re right, I don’t believe in the bible.  I also don’t believe in the creation story from a thousand other cultures.  You have yet to show yours is any more valid. 

Just because some people choke on water and get sick, doesn't mean the pharynx and immune system are bad designs.

  Oh, so your god meant to have humans choke and die from this.  He “designed” it that way  

Oh man, do you really understand how perfectly the pharynx and esophagus work?  It's amazing!  It actually proves how silly evolution is.  Without everything working perfectly together, everyone would aspirate and die.

Hmmm, like how humans do without it working perfectly together.  wow, god meant for them to die right, since he designed it that way.  It’s just a murder weapon that your god can turn on and off.  Why laryngomalacia is just god’s way of telling us he loves us!     


I do love how your god has now become a moronic designer. 

[rockv12]

So a perfect being can sin? What does that say about your god? How are we to know that your god hasn't sinned before?

Oh boy, theological discussion go nowhere to a non-believer.  But, I'll bite.  Yes, we were created with free will to sin.  Put yourself in God's shoes.  If you wanted to create some buddies to share paradise with, would you create robots that say, "I love you!"?  Would that be true love?  No.  God created us with the ability to choose to love God or reject Him.  That shows true love. 

[rockv12]

These are simple questions to answer, if you understand God and the Bible.  Shall I try to explain?

God, a imaginary deity.  NO evidence has been given by you, rockv, to show it exists.  Bible a book purportedly by this god and has nothing to support that any of the essential events in it ever happened. 

But what about the millions of people that have studied it looking for proof that it's true and come up with the answer that it is?  Isn't that like your evolutionary scientists?  How can they all be wrong?  They are experts on the subject.

Have you studied apologetics and Biblical theology?  What did you conclude?

[One Above All]

<snip>

Oh boy. Another dodge by rockv12.

What does that say about your god? Is it perfect, and therefore also capable of sin, or imperfect, and therefore not worthy of worship?
By the way, how does a perfect being become "corrupted"? Perfection is immutable, after all. Oh well. You're too scared to admit your BS makes no sense anyway; that's just one more example of your cognitive dissonance.

[rockv12]

Oh, so your god meant to have humans choke and die from this.  He “designed” it that way  

Yes, he designed it that way.  I don't know how your point proves that it's a bad design.  Good grief, have we come to arguing about this?  You say it's a bad design, I say it's a good design.  Nobody can win this.

Yes, God created us with the ability to die.  We aren't bulletproof.  Next question...

[Aaron123]

But I haven't been shown I'm wrong!  I've asked many times to prove evolution, and I get assumptions. 

This is an ironic quote, considering that the very next thing you do is MAKE assumptions!

My particular God?  I'm just trying to get people to realize that there's something out there that we can't explain that must have driven the creation of life.  My God should be discussed in a different topic thread.  My beliefs come from the Bible, as I believe it to be infallible.  But again, that's another topic, I guess.

How is this not an assumption?!  This is little more than "well, there must be SOMETHING out there, and it must be the god that I was indoctrinated with!"

[One Above All]

So, by your logic, if I design a medicine that kills 2800 people per year - and note that those deaths could be avoided with a simple change in the medicine's composition - it's perfectly designed?
No wonder you think A&E were perfect. Your definition of "perfect" is so retarded I'm surprised your neurons don't commit suicide.

[screwtape]

You honestly don't see my point?  You make a circle analogy? 

your point is that of a child having a tantrum.

When did time begin? 

If we are talking about evolution that is an irrelevant question.

Shapes are not applicable and you know it.

Actually, you are wrong.  Again. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_of_the_Universe

It's funny, it is as if you know absolutely nothing about everything.