The Probability of the Big Bang

[velkyn]

Also, posting links to answer a question mean nothing.  I have asked time and time again in different forums for someone to explain the evolution of sex...or the inner ear, etc...  I get links to websites.  These websites give assumptions.  Do you realize there are numerous theories for how sex evolved?   NEVER an answer.   If you really believe it and claim to "understand" evolution, explain it in your own words.

aw, that's so cute, trying to excuse your ignorance and refusal to read the links as a problem for someone else.  Sorry, rockv, but there is no need for me to rewrite something that I already understand and would produce similarly.  You are the usual theist, trying to move the goalposts, and delay the inevitable, remaining willfully ignorant.

It's also cute to see you lie about Charles Darwin just like any other pathetic creationist.  I am always pleased to see a Christian who doesn't care about his religion at all.   So much for faith in a being that hates lies when you repeat them and fail to even apologize.  Such a good representative of your religion. 

[rockv12]

Also, posting links to answer a question mean nothing.  I have asked time and time again in different forums for someone to explain the evolution of sex...or the inner ear, etc...  I get links to websites.  These websites give assumptions.  Do you realize there are numerous theories for how sex evolved?   NEVER an answer.   If you really believe it and claim to "understand" evolution, explain it in your own words.

aw, that's so cute, trying to excuse your ignorance and refusal to read the links as a problem for someone else.  Sorry, rockv, but there is no need for me to rewrite something that I already understand and would produce similarly.  You are the usual theist, trying to move the goalposts, and delay the inevitable, remaining willfully ignorant.

It's also cute to see you lie about Charles Darwin just like any other pathetic creationist.  I am always pleased to see a Christian who doesn't care about his religion at all.   So much for faith in a being that hates lies when you repeat them and fail to even apologize.  Such a good representative of your religion.

.
Wow, simmer down.  I do read the links but have been through this before.  I ask a question and get directed to a quick Google search link that offers nothing other than assumptions.  Nobody can tell me how sex evolved but get angry when youtell them that evolution has not been proven.  And I lied?  What?  I'm confused as to the angry tone.

[One Above All]

Nobody can tell me how sex evolved but get angry when youtell them that evolution has not been proven.  And I lied?  What?  I'm confused as to the angry tone.

I'll assume that "Am I lied?" means "Am I lying?". If so, the answer is yes. Evolution has been proven ad nauseam. However, we can only speculate based on the evidence (create theories) as to how some parts evolved. We have a fossil record showing how bones evolved, as well as vestigial organs on some (maybe most) species (including our own), but soft tissues are exceedingly rare.

[jakec47]

If you got a problem take it up with this guy, I don't know how he did the research or whatever, just thought you all would like to say something about his theory (wrong as it might be).

Nice copout there - why are we not surprised? Lesseee...don't like what I said - well take it up with (this guy who isn't on the forum, by the way...). Yup, you should do real well as a policeman.

Oh so your going to insult me and what my profession is going to be. Well being a police officer is not the same as religion, being a police officer I will have to do things differently. And do you see me here insulting things about your life. Stick to the forum discussion and stay away from my life.

[rockv12]

Nobody can tell me how sex evolved but get angry when youtell them that evolution has not been proven.  And I lied?  What?  I'm confused as to the angry tone.

I'll assume that "Am I lied?" means "Am I lying?". If so, the answer is yes. Evolution has been proven ad nauseam. However, we can only speculate based on the evidence (create theories) as to how some parts evolved. We have a fossil record showing how bones evolved, as well as vestigial organs on some (maybe most) species (including our own), but soft tissues are exceedingly rare.

The fossil record does not show how bones evolved.  We see different looking and different size bones, that does not mean they changed shape and form due to evolution.  We only have assumptions.  How again, has it been proven? 

[Brakeman]

Rockv12,
Have you ever heard of genetics? Of DNA? Have you ever personally judged where the delineation from ape ancestor to human was using skull fossils? Look them up and tell us which skulls were human and which were apes.

 

[jaimehlers]

rockv12:  When you have fossil skeletons which are similar but have certain key differences, and furthermore the fossils are in the same geographic area but from subsequent time periods, that is reasonable proof that the bones changed, thus the organisms changed.  But since you do not think so, what do you think the differences in the bones prove?  I don't mean just that they're different organisms, I mean why you think they're different.

[jetson]

The fossil record does not show how bones evolved.  We see different looking and different size bones, that does not mean they changed shape and form due to evolution.  We only have assumptions.  How again, has it been proven?

Dude, seriously?  You really have missed the basics of the theory, by a long shot.  Seriously.  Stop repeating the word assumptions like you have some authority on this field of study.  You don't.  You're not even close.

[Dante]

No, we have much more than assumptions, much more than faith. We have evidence. The theory makes reliable, repeatable predictions about reality.

Much like the theory of gravity. Or do you find the theory of gravity lacks proof as well?

[rockv12]

No, we have much more than assumptions, much more than faith. We have evidence. The theory makes reliable, repeatable predictions about reality.

Much like the theory of gravity. Or do you find the theory of gravity lacks proof as well?

Theory of gravity?  I thought it was a law.  Look, we have never witnessed one species turn into another, therefore, yes, it is faith.  Actually, NOTHING can be proven.  God can't be proven.  We can't prove that life evolved as you say it has.  Transitional fossils, even evolutionists, agree that they are missing, tons of them are NOT there to see.  We NEVER see half an alligator, or half a bird.  Where are all the fossils?  We've just gotten unlucky with our digging? 

[rockv12]

The fossil record does not show how bones evolved.  We see different looking and different size bones, that does not mean they changed shape and form due to evolution.  We only have assumptions.  How again, has it been proven?

Dude, seriously?  You really have missed the basics of the theory, by a long shot.  Seriously.  Stop repeating the word assumptions like you have some authority on this field of study.  You don't.  You're not even close.

Assumptions can be best guesses, as we see with evolutionists.  They have a guess of how the inner ear formed with it's semi-circular canals and the cochlea with it's intricacies.  BUT never does it seem, "Ah, that makes sense".  HOW would any living thing decide that it had to hear?  And that decision/need (whatever you will call it) turned into the middle ear bones, eustachian tube, and inner ear.  It is SO far advanced, it understands physics and acoustics perfectly.  Does that not seem odd?  Think about the process from beginning to end that evolution gives for its formation.  Think long and hard about the little living organism that evolved to a human being.  It's outrageous!!  And you just go, "Yea, it makes perfect sense".  And we are insane and delusional to believe that a creator designed it?

[ParkingPlaces]

And you just go, "Yea, it makes perfect sense".  And we are insane and delusional to believe that a creator designed it?

About this creator fellow, who I assume has ears...

[monkeymind]

Theory of gravity?  I thought it was a law.  Look, we have never witnessed one species turn into another, therefore, yes, it is faith.  Actually, NOTHING can be proven.  God can't be proven.  We can't prove that life evolved as you say it has.  Transitional fossils, even evolutionists, agree that they are missing, tons of them are NOT there to see.  We NEVER see half an alligator, or half a bird.  Where are all the fossils?  We've just gotten unlucky with our digging?

Actually it's Newton's Laws of gravity or gravitation. That is... in the Standard Model of Physics. However, there are new theories of gravity relating to gravitons, gravity waves, etc. in string theory.

You are correct, nothing can be proven in the layperson's sense of the word, but things can be falsified.

Evolution does not say we should find half an alligator, but if you are referring to transitional fossils, in effect they all are. However, one can easily pull up many examples through Google. Or, you caould have spent a little time reading through the threads on evolution.

[wright]

  We can't prove that life evolved as you say it has.  Transitional fossils, even evolutionists, agree that they are missing, tons of them are NOT there to see.

I doubt these will be acceptable to you, but here are some fossil lineages that are pretty well known: ape-like ancestors to human, the progression of whales from land-dwellers to their present form and several others (http://transitionalfossils.com/#whales).

Also, when you say something like "...even evolutionists, agree that they are missing,", please give a link or reference to the person who supposedly said it. We're giving you evidence to support our position; please reciprocate.

We NEVER see half an alligator, or half a bird.  Where are all the fossils?  We've just gotten unlucky with our digging? 

Evolutionary theory predicts that we will "NEVER see half an alligator, or half a bird". Such a chimera would be better evidence for special creation than evolution. AFAIK, no such fossil has ever been found.

We have fossils that show clear progressions of gradual evolutionary change, rocky12. We even have fossils showing relatively rapid change (rapid still meaning multiple millions of years), such as the "Cambrian Explosion" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian_explosion). 

The idea that we should be able to see a complete record of morphological change in fossils is quite wrong, as Darwin himself recognized: (http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC201.html).

[ParkingPlaces]

Not to mention that there is plenty of evidence for evolution without fossils. If there were no fossils at all, science could still demonstrate that evolution is the best explanation for the millions of species on this planet.

That fossils do exist, buried and preserved by various geologic forces over time, in a manner quite consistent with the rest of the theory, is what we in the business call a frickin' bonus.

[pingnak]

I should think the odds would be about 1:1, since the convincing evidence that we have accumulated over the centuries tends to indicate that the universe exists, and expanded from some central point. 

It's like debating the odds of life existing, or the odds that about 2/3 of the earth would be covered in water, or the 'odds' you lost in Vegas, riding the bus home with only the shirt on your back, and a stolen hotel towel wrapped about your waist, below.

Happened already.  Probability wave collapsed.

That some natural force would cause it seems a lot more likely than some extra-natural super-duper-prefect-sky-guy existing prior to the existence of anything else at all, causing all things to exist by talking at chaos.  You may as well calculate the odds the earth we live on is a flat, spinning disk, on four elephants, on a turtle, with sun and moon orbiting it.  Tack on a few trillion extra zeroes for THAT possibility.

[Anfauglir]

Look, we have never witnessed one species turn into another, therefore, yes, it is faith.  Actually, NOTHING can be proven.  God can't be proven. 

Fair enough.  So when you said:

....God created man, perfect and sinless.  Man sinned.  Sin seperated man from a perfect, holy God.  God requires holiness.  Man was created with free will, because God wants buddies in heaven that WANT to love Him.  The old covenant of reconciliation required perfection and offerings of lambs to God.  God realized this would not work and sent Jesus to die on the cross for our sins.  We are now under a covenant of grace......

That was all just idle speculation on your part.  You can't prove any of it.  You've never witnessed any of it.  So as far as your argument goes, your random speculation about the nature of god is no more and no less relevant or truthful that the Muslim's speculation, or the Hindu's, or the Pastafarian's.

And, as such, you'll be in favour of the immediate cessation of any promotion of one of those speculations over any of the others?

[Tero]

Every species is transitional. Everything before us, for example,  was a perfectly functional organism.  There are no freaks in any lineage. No crocoducks.

[velkyn]

Wow, simmer down.  I do read the links but have been through this before.  I ask a question and get directed to a quick Google search link that offers nothing other than assumptions.  Nobody can tell me how sex evolved but get angry when youtell them that evolution has not been proven.  And I lied?  What?  I'm confused as to the angry tone.

People can show you links that have hypotheses on how sex evolved, how bones evolved etc.  And you ignore them.  That’s called willful ignorance, Christians.  You want to claim that “goddidit” and you depend on this willful ignorance to do so.  Science may not have complete answerse *yet* but this does not mean that they will never have them and this also does not mean that your god exists. 

Evolution has been proven repeatedly.  You depend on evolution and the science that supports it every single day.  Evolutionary theory, and the predictions it makes are what allow antibiotics to be created and improved; modern food animals and plants to be improved so we can feed a growing population, etc.  The theory of the big bang also is supported by the same science that you hypocritically use every day.  Your computer, your car, etc, all depend on physics being what it is, and that science supports what we observe in the universe. 

I do get angry at liars and you are quite the one.  I expect you also get angry at people who lie to you too.  You see, your attempts at lying to me makes me think that you think you have the right to try to remove my ability to make an informed decision.  You come here and repeat things that are untrue and this is evidently because you are either too lazy or too afraid to even try to do your own research.  Between you and Jakec47, you have both told lies that are so easily found out. 

Rockv, you claim that the fossil record doesn’t show how bones evolved.  You show your utter ignorance about how fossils form and you are again a liar.  It does show how bones formed. We have fossils of creatures with notochords: Yunnanozoon lividum, we have fossils of creatures with cartilaginous skeletons, etc.  We have quite line of evidence that shows how skeletal structures formed.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/547371/skeleton/41991/Evolution-of-the-vertebrate-skeleton

http://palaeo.gly.bris.ac.uk/donoghue/PDFs/2006/Donoghue_et_al_2006b.pdf

http://bioweb.cs.earlham.edu/9-12/evolution/HTML/live.html

we have seen speciation: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html  and there are transitional fossils, and no, scientists do not agree with you that they are “missing”: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC200.html  http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html 

It’s also so cute to see you claim that “nothing can be proven” as an excuse for your god’s evident non-existence.  Sad for you, little hypocrite, that we can be quite comfortable in knowing that reality exists everyday.  I know that the sun will rise, I know that if I drink cyanide I will die, etc.  The universe is not the Seussian nightmare you would pretend it to be to excuse your nonsense.

You are quite a moron when you say “We NEVER see half an alligator, or half a bird” or that you think that living beings “decide” to evolve.  It shows that you are too willfully ignorant to even attempt to understand the science that you attack.  How sad. 

So, again you lie.  Now, since I can do a google search and find this stuff, I find it that you could have done the same.  You chose not too, so you chose to lie.  Quite the Christians you are, Rockv and Jakec47.

[rockv12]

Velkyn, you say you don't have the answers to everything...yet.  Can't that logic include someday  understanding a God?  Hmmm.  Goes for both, I would assume.  Fossils of different animals mean nothing.  A simple ear does not mean it was, at one time, a transitional form.  How can that be proven?   Explain.  No, links.

[rockv12]

Every species is transitional. Everything before us, for example,  was a perfectly functional organism.  There are no freaks in any lineage. No crocoducks.

No, there has to be a crockoduck.  If a bird evolved wings from a reptile, she me the bird slash reptile. 

[One Above All]

No, there has to be a crockoduck.  If a bird evolved wings from a reptile, she me the bird slash reptile. 

Let's try the "nice" approach.
Crocodiles did not evolve into birds, so there's no "crocoduck". As for bird/reptile, there are the velociraptors. They had feathers, you know.

[jaimehlers]

Velkyn, you say you don't have the answers to everything...yet.  Can't that logic include someday  understanding a God?  Hmmm.  Goes for both, I would assume.

You have to show real evidence that a god exists first.

Fossils of different animals mean nothing.  A simple ear does not mean it was, at one time, a transitional form.  How can that be proven?   Explain.  No, links.

Sure they do.  If you can show that they are similar, except for specific differences, and further show that those differences progress in one direction, you've just demonstrated a line of descent and transitional forms.  That's proof enough; the fact that it could be contradicted by future evidence just means that we're leaving room for future discoveries to enhance our knowledge.

By the way, I find it interesting that you keep demanding proof, and if/when people can't provide it, your argument goes that your belief is just as likely.  Doesn't fly.  Science may never be "proved" by the arbitrary standard you set for it, but it has far more evidence backing it than any religious belief ever has, and ever will.

No, there has to be a crockoduck.  If a bird evolved wings from a reptile, she me the bird slash reptile.

You mean something like a chimera?  No, there doesn't have to be any such thing.  Evolution doesn't work by taking the head of a goat, grafting it on the back of a lion, and grafting a snake onto the lion's tail.  Evolution works by having a population of like animals differentiate based on traits that benefit survival in a given environment.

[ParkingPlaces]

rockv12

First of all, there is a difference between not knowing everything but trying (science) and not learning what IS known because it conflicts with what one hopes is true (religion).

For you to maintain your incredulity when given alternatives to your POV, you have to put your hands over your ears and close your eyes. Luckily for you, those abilities evolved. Otherwise, you'd be in trouble.

What about your god's ears and eyes and such. He always existed, in human form? And you're okay with that, even though it makes less sense than even crockoducks? Even if he is out of time and all that crap, there is presumably some explanation as to why an infinite being exists

His existence, with all that mystery, is plausible to you. We are not. Theoretically, you shouldn't even be able to talk to us, since we can't possibly exist via  evolution. I'm sure you talk with your god about this every day at www.whyidonthealamputees.com. Does he believe in us?

[rockv12]

No, there has to be a crockoduck.  If a bird evolved wings from a reptile, she me the bird slash reptile. 

Let's try the "nice" approach.
Crocodiles did not evolve into birds, so there's no "crocoduck". As for bird/reptile, there are the velociraptors. They had feathers, you know.

You didn't understand I was using the crockoduck as an example?  This debate may take a while.  A feathered dinosaur?  Thats the proof of evolution? 

[velkyn]

Velkyn, you say you don't have the answers to everything...yet.  Can't that logic include someday  understanding a God?  Hmmm.  Goes for both, I would assume.  Fossils of different animals mean nothing.  A simple ear does not mean it was, at one time, a transitional form.  How can that be proven?   Explain.  No, links.

It could indeed go for both.  However, your problem is that I’m wondering how long do I have to wait, rockv?  Theists have had thousands of years and still no evidence that any gods exist.  Christians claim that if I just pray and am really sincere this god will reveal itself.  Hasn’t happened yet.   We have not one scrap of evidence to support the supernatural and you can’ t say it’s been from a lack of looking.  You sound like those who claim that JC will return real soon now, just wait.  But their claims have also proven to be lies.  For a god that is supposedly constantly interfering with humanity, that supposedly affects everything, that is omniscient and omnipotent, this god is awful hard to find.  It does nothing, it leaves no evidence. INdeed, it seems just like it would if your god didn't exist at all.

What do you mean that “fossils of different animals mean nothing”?  I’m guessing that you mean that no matter what you’ll refuse to accept anything as a transitional fossil no matter what.  Good to know that you are willfully ignorant again. I’ve shown you how bones evolved.  But I guess, if you are too stupid to actually find out how evolutionary theory works then you have no idea what you are looking at or how transitional forms come about.  You have no idea on how evidence supports transitional forms.  You don’t understand DNA or physiology  or even how fossils are formed.  You aren’t even trying and that’s sad, but typical. 

No, there has to be a crockoduck.  If a bird evolved wings from a reptile, she me the bird slash reptile.

Again, lovely example of a creationist who doesn’t even try to understand what he thinks he can lie about.  Evolution generally goes in increments, not one magical change that produces a chimera.  Sorry, again you fail so dramatically.

It’s always just hilarious when I can tell that you haven’t even read one link that you’ve been given.  The links explain it all and no, my poor Christian, I’m not rewriting everything out for you.   You can read the links just like I can and understand it just like I can *if* you want to.  I’m more than happy to clarify anything you don’t understand, but I am not willing to write out exactly what has already been done.  Take your lie about bones.  The fossil record *does* show the evolution of bones.  It shows how common ancestry makes all mammals, reptiles, etc have the same basic bone structure and how evolution to fit into various niches has changed the shape but not the basic blueprint.  One of the links I gave you shows this exactly but of course you didn’t look at it at all.   Scientists have been doing experiments with DNA to see what genes control what and surprise, the same genes that form my arm bone is the same as the one that forms a chicken’s wing. http://www.zoology.ubc.ca/~bio336/bio336/lectures/lecture5/overheads.html 

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

it’s so pathetic how creationists consistently rely on their willful ignorance and lies.  What’s even more funny is how creationists have changed their ideas on what the truth is and they’d be as heretical as any atheist is to the creationists who came before them and who had a whole different set of “truths”.   

[One Above All]

You didn't understand I was using the crockoduck as an example?  This debate may take a while.  A feathered dinosaur?  Thats the proof of evolution? 

No. That's just what you asked for.
The proof of evolution is in genetics. It's not my field, but here's a short experiment ("dumbed down" a bit, for simplicity's sake) that effectively proved evolution (the appearance of a new, beneficial genetic trait that spread throughout a population):
There were these bacteria that "fed" on, let's call it element A. They were dipped in a liquid that had a very small percentage of element A and a very large percentage of element B. Through a DNA replication error (those occur on a fairly frequent basis), one single bacterium evolved the ability to utilize element B as well as element A.

There was also another experiment in which yeast evolved into a multicellular being.

[rockv12]

Sorry, that was rude.  That is what I asked for.  A feathered reptile. 

[velkyn]

dinos aren't reptiles.