Author Topic: The Probability of the Big Bang  (Read 29079 times)

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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #638 on: April 02, 2012, 12:28:24 PM »
You are trying to use reason against concrete. Doesn't work. Try a Jackhammer.
Actually, reason works best when dealing with people like him.  It can just take a while.  You see, even if rockv isn't paying attention now, it's still seeping in, and sooner or later enough will sink in.  It's the people who don't bother to argue because they're too convinced they're right who reason doesn't work on.

Offline rockv12

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #639 on: April 09, 2012, 08:02:07 PM »

Okay. Putting myself in god's shoes:

I wouldn't create sin or cancer or disease - especially none that can ever affect children. Humans would have lifespans of thousands of years (at least) and all would be curious so they would and could explore the universe I created. While there is no reason to make everyone look the same, there is also no reason to have any human be ugly or deformed. Healthy foods would taste good while unhealthy things would always taste bad no matter how many times you tried them. Seperate tubes for connecting the nostrils and lungs and for connecting the mouth and stomache. No: bleeding to death, strokes, heart attacks, unhealthy overweight or underweight, organ failure, blindness, deafness, other physical disease, mental disease, etc.

This is just a quick, off-the-top-of-my-head (re)design. It's better and I'm not omniscient or omnipotent.  If any god existed then reality would not be as crappy as it is. And I'm not even considering what I'd add or subtract if I really wanted to show my love for my creation.

Why does your idea of love include sin?

God didn't create sin or cancer or death, etc.  Where do you get this idea?  If you would read the Bible, you would understand who and what God is.  He didn't create sin.  He created us perfect and holy.  We sinned.  Is there such thing as darkness?  No, it's the absence of light.  Sin is the absence of holiness.  So using humanistic logic to say why God should do this and not do that does NOT help. 

Offline rockv12

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #640 on: April 09, 2012, 08:05:12 PM »

Good grief, you are horrible at trying to make us believe your lies!
As everyone can see, you were asking about the beginning of time which has nothing to do with biological evolution!

It has EVERYTHING to do with biological evolution!  You can't spell "evolution" u-t-i-o-n.  You have to include the first half of the word also.  Where did things come from to offer biological evolution fuel to function?  That requires more than simply starting with life evolving.

Offline HAL

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #641 on: April 09, 2012, 08:06:59 PM »
So using humanistic logic ...

What is "humanistic logic"? I've never heard of it.

Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #642 on: April 09, 2012, 08:08:49 PM »

God didn't create sin or cancer or death, etc.  Where do you get this idea?  If you would read the Bible, you would understand who and what God is.  He didn't create sin.  He created us perfect and holy.  We sinned.  Is there such thing as darkness?  No, it's the absence of light.  Sin is the absence of holiness.  So using humanistic logic to say why God should do this and not do that does NOT help.

Let's take a look at what the Bible says about this:
Quote from: The Bible
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I'm sorry, please try again.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline Tero

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #643 on: April 09, 2012, 08:09:30 PM »

God didn't create sin or cancer or death, etc.  Where do you get this idea?  If you would read the Bible, you would understand who and what God is.  He didn't create sin.  He created us perfect and holy.  We sinned.  Is there such thing as darkness?  No, it's the absence of light.  Sin is the absence of holiness.  So using humanistic logic to say why God should do this and not do that does NOT help.

Reading the bible does not give a consistent set of rules even. The concept of sin would relate to that, but nobody knows what the rules are. Therefore we can assume that we are probably sinning by these inconsistent rules.

I most recently read the gospels. I did not actually understand what I was supposed to do, except wait for an apocalypse, real soon.

Offline Aaron123

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #644 on: April 09, 2012, 08:53:51 PM »
It has EVERYTHING to do with biological evolution!  You can't spell "evolution" u-t-i-o-n.  You have to include the first half of the word also.  Where did things come from to offer biological evolution fuel to function?  That requires more than simply starting with life evolving.

You're still on this?

Evolution focus only on how life changes and develops.  It does not concern itself with the origin of life.  That is a different scientific theory. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis )

Likewise, it does not concern itself with "where did things come from".  Again, different scientific theory.
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Offline rockv12

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #645 on: April 09, 2012, 09:22:28 PM »

You're still on this?

Evolution focus only on how life changes and develops.  It does not concern itself with the origin of life.  That is a different scientific theory. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis )

Likewise, it does not concern itself with "where did things come from".  Again, different scientific theory.

I understand that point.  But it's nice and easy to dodge the difficult questions isn't it.  You can't just start with your "proof" of NO God by proving evolution is true without proving the whole story.  God is silly because we don't know how He got there or how He can exist?  But it's not silly to believe in something else that you can't prove or understand, such as the origin of the universe?  No more calling Christians irrational and delusional if you believe the exact same thing.....you believe in the unknown and unfathomable.

Offline rockv12

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #646 on: April 09, 2012, 09:27:15 PM »

Let's take a look at what the Bible says about this:
Quote from: The Bible
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I'm sorry, please try again.

The original Hebrew word used is "rah" and it does not necessarily mean moral evil.  It means calamity and distress.  It does NOT say God created evil. 

Offline rockv12

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #647 on: April 09, 2012, 09:30:08 PM »
What is "humanistic logic"? I've never heard of it.

I just coined the term!  Nice huh?  My point was that we can't try to understand holiness.  We can't play God and say how He should act.  It doesn't prove anything to say, "But God should heal all the sick people in the world or else he's a big jerk!!".  We see suffering through human eyes.  God NEVER says He doesn't care about the sick and dying.  But to us suffering means pain.  In reality, death means nothing.  We are physical, God is spiritual.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #648 on: April 09, 2012, 09:40:11 PM »

Let's take a look at what the Bible says about this:
Quote from: The Bible
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I'm sorry, please try again.

The original Hebrew word used is "rah" and it does not necessarily mean moral evil.  It means calamity and distress.  It does NOT say God created evil.

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Offline rockv12

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #649 on: April 09, 2012, 09:54:24 PM »

When you say your prayers tonight, thank The Google for giving you an out.

I was completely aware of that verse and how to defend it.  Did I remember exactly what "rah" meant?  No.  Did I use a dictionary or the internet?  Yes.  And your point is????

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #650 on: April 09, 2012, 10:09:08 PM »

When you say your prayers tonight, thank The Google for giving you an out.

I was completely aware of that verse and how to defend it.  Did I remember exactly what "rah" meant?  No.  Did I use a dictionary or the internet?  Yes.  And your point is????

I was completely aware that you were completely aware of that verse and how to defend it. I had no point. I didn't realize, from looking at your posts, that one was required.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #651 on: April 09, 2012, 10:18:28 PM »
I just coined the term!  Nice huh?  My point was that we can't try to understand holiness.  We can't play God and say how He should act.  It doesn't prove anything to say, "But God should heal all the sick people in the world or else he's a big jerk!!".  We see suffering through human eyes.  God NEVER says He doesn't care about the sick and dying.  But to us suffering means pain.  In reality, death means nothing.  We are physical, God is spiritual.

If god cannot be understood then you can't honestly make any claims about him. So your paragraph is in contradiction. If you can claim things like "God is spiritual" and "If you would read the Bible, you would understand who and what God is.  He didn't create sin.  He created us perfect and holy.  We sinned.  Is there such thing as darkness?  No, it's the absence of light.  Sin is the absence of holiness."

These are outright claims about god and his nature.

So which is it? Is god unfathomable and can't be judged, in which case everything you say about him is a lie spoken out of ignorance. Or can god be known, in which case he has a lot to answer for.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #652 on: April 09, 2012, 10:44:54 PM »
I understand that point.  But it's nice and easy to dodge the difficult questions isn't it.  You can't just start with your "proof" of NO God by proving evolution is true without proving the whole story.  God is silly because we don't know how He got there or how He can exist?  But it's not silly to believe in something else that you can't prove or understand, such as the origin of the universe?  No more calling Christians irrational and delusional if you believe the exact same thing.....you believe in the unknown and unfathomable.
Until you can offer real evidence of God's existence - not the Bible, not subjective divine revelation, not anything like that, but objective evidence that stays the same no matter who looks at it - it is illogical to assume that such a being exists.  And it is ridiculous to criticize someone for not assuming that such a being exists due to the lack of evidence.  We're not even talking about incomplete evidence, like with evolution, we're talking none at all (except for books written by humans, and subjective experiences of humans, which both need corroboration to be valid, which is not forthcoming).  As for the beginning of the universe, we don't "believe" in it in the way you think.  We observe the evidence, and come to a conclusion about it by working backwards, which in the absence of other evidence, is eminently reasonable.  In other words, even though some of the exact specifics still elude us, the total concept is anything but unknown and unfathomable.

Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #653 on: April 09, 2012, 10:50:49 PM »
God didn't create sin or cancer or death, etc.  Where do you get this idea?  If you would read the Bible, you would understand who and what God is.  He didn't create sin.  He created us perfect and holy.  We sinned.  Is there such thing as darkness?  No, it's the absence of light.  Sin is the absence of holiness.  So using humanistic logic to say why God should do this and not do that does NOT help.

Rock, please refer to my post #636 to better understand the true implications of an all-powerful being.

As you have conveniently chosen to ignore every question I've asked, point I've raised, and post I've made I will just continue with the assumption that you believe in the standard omnipotent/omnibenevolent/omniscient xtian god. Please correct me if I am wrong.

If god is omnipotent, he is by definition responsible for all that is: Heaven. Hell. Love. Hate. Joy. Sorrow. Sin. Life. Death. All that is. And he allows all of these thing to exist and thrive to this day.
You can't just cherry pick the good stuff and claim god isn't responsible for the bad unless you are willing to admit he is not all-powerful. To paraphrase Epicurus, if god is powerless to stop evil, why worship him?
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #654 on: April 09, 2012, 10:58:28 PM »
I understand that point.  But it's nice and easy to dodge the difficult questions isn't it.

Saying "evolution is not about origin of life/the universe" is not "dodging".  It is simply the truth.  The theory of evolution does not concern itself, nor does it pretends to, with anything other than how life changes and develops.  The only ones who assumes otherwise are those with an axe to grind against it.


Quote
You can't just start with your "proof" of NO God by proving evolution is true without proving the whole story. 


The theory of evolution is neither for god or against god.  It is only concerned with changes and developments in life.  It does not say anything about god.

Get that in your head already.


Quote
God is silly because we don't know how He got there or how He can exist? 


No.  God is silly because there is no evidence of such a thing.  Big difference.


Quote
But it's not silly to believe in something else that you can't prove or understand, such as the origin of the universe? 


Again; the origin of the universe is not releated to evolution.

Second, our knowledge in this area is incomplete.  However, scientists are studying this and learning little by little every day.  Saying "goddidit, the end" is neither learning or enlighting.


Quote
No more calling Christians irrational and delusional if you believe the exact same thing.....you believe in the unknown and unfathomable.

You are doing nothing more than projecting.  Just because you say it is "unfathomable", it does not make it so.
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Offline rockv12

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #655 on: April 09, 2012, 11:14:58 PM »
If god is omnipotent, he is by definition responsible for all that is: Heaven. Hell. Love. Hate. Joy. Sorrow. Sin. Life. Death. All that is. And he allows all of these thing to exist and thrive to this day.
You can't just cherry pick the good stuff and claim god isn't responsible for the bad unless you are willing to admit he is not all-powerful. To paraphrase Epicurus, if god is powerless to stop evil, why worship him?

Responsible for it?  Well, sort of.  First off, how is that proof that He doesn't exist?  Can't He be "mean" if He wants?  I don't get the point of arguing this.

Second, if you study the Bible, you will understand more what my points are.  You will understand God and His actions.  Why are kids dying in Africa if God is all-powerful?  Good question.  Easy answer if you take the time to comprehend the answer.  In short, there is no other way for God to act.  He lets things happen that we feel are "mean".  He can't interject into every bad thing that happens.  That would create a perfect world again and would destroy our free-will and His plan.  His plan is that we choose to love Him.  If nothing bad ever happened, then how would anybody ever give their life to God?  All would be good nomatter what and He would end up with a bunch of people "loving" Him for no reason.  Does that make sense?  You want God to simply stop every bad thing from happening?  Would that make Him real to you?  No.  That would simply make a perfect world of eutopia and we would reject God like we did in the Garden of Eden.

Offline rockv12

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #656 on: April 09, 2012, 11:17:19 PM »
Second, our knowledge in this area is incomplete.  However, scientists are studying this and learning little by little every day.  Saying "goddidit, the end" is neither learning or enlighting.

It's incomplete?  That's the "proof" of the Big Bang?  When will this answer develop?  Until then it's blind faith?  Goddunnit is just as good as your theory, at this point in time?

Offline rockv12

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #657 on: April 09, 2012, 11:20:32 PM »
You are doing nothing more than projecting.  Just because you say it is "unfathomable", it does not make it so.

You can fathom how everything got here?  You understand it?  I don't understand how God has always been.  You can't understand how matter has always been.  We both believe because there is no other answer.  Same thing.

Now how this relates to evolution is HUGE!  It's completely related because....ummmm....because it is.  Evolution began at point (A)?  What happened before then?  It doesn't matter?  Nobody cares?  Why care?  We can't answer that.  We don't have ANY idea of the answer to how things got here...so let's ignore it?

Offline Alzael

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #658 on: April 09, 2012, 11:25:32 PM »
Second, if you study the Bible, you will understand more what my points are.  You will understand God and His actions.

Ahem, if I may have your attention for a moment.

My point was that we can't try to understand holiness.  We can't play God and say how He should act.

Thank you.

  In short, there is no other way for God to act.  He lets things happen that we feel are "mean".  He can't interject into every bad thing that happens.

Then he isn't omnipotent.


That would create a perfect world again and would destroy our free-will and His plan.

No it wouldn't. That's what omnipotent means. Furthermore there is no free will if god has a "plan". The entire point of a plan is to avoid the randomness of free will.

His plan is that we choose to love Him.  If nothing bad ever happened, then how would anybody ever give their life to God?

He could simply ask nicely, or actually heal amputees and provide food for the poor and destitute. He could try it at least, so far the doing bad stuff thing hasn't worked out very good. Everyone here on this forum is proof of that.

All would be good nomatter what and He would end up with a bunch of people "loving" Him for no reason. 

Sure there would be a reason. He created a paradise where no one suffers. You honestly can't think of a better reason than that?

Does that make sense?  You want God to simply stop every bad thing from happening?

No. I simply want god to do the things that he actually said he would do. That doesn't seem unreasonable.

  Would that make Him real to you?  No.  That would simply make a perfect world of eutopia and we would reject God like we did in the Garden of Eden.

We didn't reject god. First off, I don't remember ever being there myself. Second off, Adam and Eve didn't reject god. They merely did something he asked them not to do out of innocence.

You're presuming an awful lot. Where is your evidence of any of these claims?
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Offline rockv12

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #659 on: April 09, 2012, 11:27:17 PM »

Until you can offer real evidence of God's existence - not the Bible, not subjective divine revelation, not anything like that, but objective evidence that stays the same no matter who looks at it - it is illogical to assume that such a being exists.  And it is ridiculous to criticize someone for not assuming that such a being exists due to the lack of evidence.  We're not even talking about incomplete evidence, like with evolution, we're talking none at all (except for books written by humans, and subjective experiences of humans, which both need corroboration to be valid, which is not forthcoming).  As for the beginning of the universe, we don't "believe" in it in the way you think.  We observe the evidence, and come to a conclusion about it by working backwards, which in the absence of other evidence, is eminently reasonable.  In other words, even though some of the exact specifics still elude us, the total concept is anything but unknown and unfathomable.

There's proof all around you.  I've said it a million times.  Design requires a designer.  Ever watch the series Planet Earth?  It's mind-blowing how this world works!  Chance?  Evolution?  Never could it arise from a Big Bang that you don't even know how it happened...There's proof all around us of a world-wide flood.  Oh, hey, Biblical!  There's proof that Jesus existed and died and rose again.  More proof.  Biblical prophecy is coming true before our eyes....look at Israel.  Proof.  Have you studied Revelations?  Did these men dream a prophetic dream that is coming true?  If you want to disprove a God, you must educate yourself on these things and prove that they are untrue.  Have you done that?  If you have, then ok.  But please share if you have. You can't just say there's no evidence if you haven't truly examined the "evidence" and concluded that it's non-factual.  I doubt you have...

Offline Dante

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #660 on: April 09, 2012, 11:28:13 PM »
Is there free will in your version of heaven?

If so, all the denizens will surely sin at some point during their eternal stay, and be cast onto hell forever.

If not, then what's the big fucking deal with granting it during this life? Remember, he's omnipotent, so by your ever so shallow thought process, he chooses to let those of us who require evidence burn for eternity, even though you believe he really does have the ability to create a world where sin is unnecessary.

Use your coconut. Your scenario is totally illogical for an  omni being to create. And before I hear the "mysterious ways" line of crap yet again, let me be the first to say that an omni being absolutely SHOULD be logical.

Yes, I judge, and both you and your god are a failure to all that is human.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline rockv12

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #661 on: April 09, 2012, 11:30:22 PM »
You're presuming an awful lot. Where is your evidence of any of these claims?

The Bible.  And where has God said He would solve every problem in the world? 

Offline rockv12

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #662 on: April 09, 2012, 11:34:33 PM »
Is there free will in your version of heaven?

If so, all the denizens will surely sin at some point during their eternal stay, and be cast onto hell forever.


Is there freewill in heaven?  They are good questions.  But to use them as proof that God doesn't exist, is getting you nowhere.  I believe there will be, the Bible doesn't really say.  Probably.  Satan was a fallen angel in heaven, so therefore, probably.

Cast into hell forever?  Where do you get this idea?  You sound like you know a lot about the Bible, but I think you're mistaken. Have you studied Scripture?  Do you understand what you're talking about?  Or are you just asking questions? 

Offline rockv12

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #663 on: April 09, 2012, 11:37:22 PM »
Use your coconut. Your scenario is totally illogical for an  omni being to create. And before I hear the "mysterious ways" line of crap yet again, let me be the first to say that an omni being absolutely SHOULD be logical.

You are thinking far beyond what we are capable of.  Logical?  You want logic?  I've tried to express how evolution and "prior" is illogical.  Everyone wants perfect logic and sense.  It will NEVER come.  There will always be that question, "How the heck and why the heck?"  Good luck answering it. 

Offline sun_king

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #664 on: April 09, 2012, 11:40:46 PM »
You can't just start with your "proof" of NO God by proving evolution is true without proving the whole story.

There are thousands of gods in "existence", proving evolution can support a few of them. For example, Hinduism will be unaffected or maybe even supported by proving evolution.

This is one of the occupational hazards of an atheist, there are so many gods to deal with, each contradicting with the other. So off with the notion that we support evolution to disprove god. We support it because it is a scientific theory backed with substantial evidence.

Offline Dante

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #665 on: April 09, 2012, 11:42:57 PM »
But if there's frewill in heaven, you believe your god can tolerate sin in his presence? If not, you're going to need to explain some things. I can spell it out for you if your thoughts cannot reach that depth. Let me know.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Alzael

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #666 on: April 09, 2012, 11:43:37 PM »

The Bible.  And where has God said He would solve every problem in the world?

I never said he did. You should avoid using Strawmen in your arguments. I said that I expected him to do the things that he said he would do.

For instance he promises to answer prayers.

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." (Matthew 7:7)

"Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 18:19)

"And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive." (Matthew 21:22)

"Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them." (Mark 11:24)

"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" (Luke 11:13)

"And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it." (John 14:13-14)

"And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you." (John 16:23)

"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him." (Romans 10:12)

"For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father." (Ephesians 2:18)

"Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." (Hebrews 4:16)

"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus. . (Hebrews 10:19)

"And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him." (1 John 5:14-15)

So why don't we see this happening in real life?

We can start with these and move on later if you'd like.

By the way, I also notice that you just focused on this and completely ignored everything else in the last two posts I made. I take it I can assume this to be a concession that I'm correct about you and your beliefs then?
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.