Author Topic: The Probability of the Big Bang  (Read 28858 times)

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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #145 on: March 14, 2012, 10:07:12 AM »
And I know you're gonna say, "But microscopic changes do help a creature!  Color makes a huge difference!".  Think about the wing.  Can you fly without a fully formed wing?  Can you or can't you?

Yep. Or at least glide, which is how flyers started:



Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline rockv12

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #146 on: March 14, 2012, 10:07:44 AM »
Again, people think I don't understand evolution.  I know you think the wing took millions of years.  So what?  Step by step slowly is still step by step.  The transitions still took place.  Even if they were small steps...ok.  Why would a microscopic, itty bitty, step assist in the animals survival or adaptation?  You keep saying that they were extremely small steps, but then it gets even more ridiculous.  Feather color doesn't help the bird fly!  It's the darned wing that helps them fly!.  See my point?   And again, you say ,"we don't know exactly".  But then attack others if they don't have an answer then they are believing in some fairy tale, spaghetti monster.  See the double-standard?

Rockv12, Have you ever heard of the expression "the god of the gaps"?  I'm wondering what that means to you.
I asked how an itty bitty mutation would help an animal survive? 

Offline velkyn

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #147 on: March 14, 2012, 10:18:58 AM »
I understand evolution and what it says.  What you wrote is not news to me.  But I appreciate the time you took.   The transition from land to sea for the whale...hmmm.....ok.  Again, how is finding a fossil of what appears to be part this/part that proof of a transition?  I'm not being difficult but serious.  Anything found can be said to look like one and sort of like another.  Fits easily with pre-conceived notions that "This has to be the case!!".  The question is actually more of.."WHY?"  Why would a creature jump into the water and try to breath?  This is where evolution takes extreme guesses.  Why would an animal develop a wing?  What purpose would it serve?  To think about the logic involved takes quite the imagination...and I've heard them all.   Any ideas?  And was that polite enough???

why I’m a prophet! You again show you are ignorant and wish to remain that way.  How nice.  You do a lovely job at showing how stupid you have made yourself, rockv.  If you really did want to know the answers to the questions you ask, you would have already found them out if you really did read about evolution.  Even though I feel sorry for you, I do like watching Christians lie. 

and then you try to move the goalposts.  How not suprising!  Again, you demonstrate your stupidity, and I rarely use that word but you deserve it with your intentional ignorance and your ignoring of every attempt to try to teach you, about evolution.  Evolutionary theory never says that some animal would do as you say, so again, you create a strawman and try to attack it rather than the actual science.  You are a sad case, rockv, unable to admit you are wrong, unwilling to learn and a liar to boot.  Politeness doesn’t matter when you intentionally lie to me, rockv.  I wonder, do you apologize to your god every time you do it, saying “but I’m doing it for you!”.
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Offline monkeymind

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #148 on: March 14, 2012, 10:21:55 AM »
And I know you're gonna say, "But microscopic changes do help a creature!  Color makes a huge difference!".  Think about the wing.  Can you fly without a fully formed wing?  Can you or can't you?

Sure color can make a huge difference. Ever heard of the flight of the Peppered Moth?
Do flying fish, flying squirrels, flying snakes count?
How about penguins, ostriches, dodo's...(oh wait they didn't make it). Are they birds?

Dodged the question with an example of a flying squirrel.  Good try, but again, we are talking about birds.  Ostriches do not count.  Put the steps in your head of the wing evolving.  Let's start with the first step.  What did the very first step look like?  Any ideas?

You dodged the answer about color making  difference.

You also failed to grasp what I was saying, so I'll be more direct this time. Fish that fly and birds that don't, what's the difference? Please define flight.
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline velkyn

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #149 on: March 14, 2012, 10:23:20 AM »
Proof of evolution?  Well, we would have to see it happen for one.  Observable evidence.  We see "natural selection", but NEVER one species turning into another.
wow, a lie!  I showed you this evidence.
Quote
Time constraints of course.  Also, we should see more accurate and provable dating methods to prove where these fossils are found.
we have them, again more lies and willful ignorance.
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We should see clear transitional fossils....again, difficult to prove with the millions of species available to look at.
and more.
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We should see a far more simplistic life schematic.  Why so many different kinds of trees?  Why not..."here we have a tree...here we have grass...here we have a weed....here we have a four-legged animal...etc".  There is so much variation and complexity and perfection among the life forms.  So much dependency upon one another that they co-exist.  They can't exist without the other.
What the hell is this supposed to mean and dear rockv, explain why we should see this?  This interdependency is what would happen if evolutionary theory was right.
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We should see obvious steps from each little transitional form and mutation.
again more willful stupidity about fossils. 
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We should see many more planets capable of supporting life....we got darn lucky to be the perfect distance from the sun.  We should see more planets with water.  Without water, no life.  We got awful lucky if you ask me....  Any more?
oh really why should we?  And aw, the good ol' goldilocks argument, again showing more ignorance about how we evolved to fit the planet, the planet did nothing. 
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Offline Omen

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #150 on: March 14, 2012, 10:24:24 AM »
Rock, what does evolution have to do with a god existing or not existing?
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Aaron123

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #151 on: March 14, 2012, 10:29:07 AM »

Rockv12, Have you ever heard of the expression "the god of the gaps"?  I'm wondering what that means to you.
I asked how an itty bitty mutation would help an animal survive?

Please answer the question.  What does the expression "the god of the gaps" means to you?  There's a point to this question.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #152 on: March 14, 2012, 10:30:59 AM »
What would your proof of a God be?  I mean, I think He's made it extremely clear that He exists.  What do you want?  Voices from the sky?  Then you'd probably say that there is some scientific explanation for the voice coming from the sky...
A better question is, what proves to you that God exists?  Don't tell us that he's made it extremely clear that he exists, because that's just an opinion.  Detail what leads you to believe that the evidence for God is as extremely clear as you say it is.  Give us examples of the evidence and how it clearly leads to God.

Quote from: rockv12
Again, people think I don't understand evolution.  I know you think the wing took millions of years.  So what?  Step by step slowly is still step by step.  The transitions still took place.  Even if they were small steps...ok.  Why would a microscopic, itty bitty, step assist in the animals survival or adaptation?  You keep saying that they were extremely small steps, but then it gets even more ridiculous.  Feather color doesn't help the bird fly!  It's the darned wing that helps them fly!.  See my point?   And again, you say ,"we don't know exactly".  But then attack others if they don't have an answer then they are believing in some fairy tale, spaghetti monster.  See the double-standard?
*shakes head*  Understanding is not simply being able to parrot back things that you've read.  That's simple memorization.  When you ask why a small change would assist in survival or adaptation, when you claim that feather color isn't important because it doesn't help birds fly, when you ask if flight is possible without a fully-formed wing (which, by the way, is the irreducible complexity argument), these demonstrate that you do not really understand how evolution actually works.  If you actually understood it, you would not have to ask why these things matter.

By the way, we know there are animals which can glide without proper wings, such as the flying squirrel, which has a membrane that stretches from wrist to ankle.  As a direct result of this, it can glide for dozens of meters, many times its body length, because the membranes increase its surface area relative to its weight.  This is an obvious survival advantage over squirrels that cannot glide, since it is both faster[1], less taxing[2], and safer[3].

Now, consider the bat, which has proper wings, but is in no way a bird.  Its wings do not have feathers, therefore feathers are not necessary for flight.  Useful, yes, but not necessary.  But if you look at its wings, it is easy to see that they stretch from the wrist area[4] to the ankle.  The primary difference between a bat's wings and a flying squirrel's membranes is that the bat's forelimbs are so much longer than a flying squirrel's, and the bat has bones within the wing which help to give it control and stabilize the wing membranes.  In other words, it would not take very many changes from a flying squirrel to end up with a flying mammal like a bat.  Longer arms in proportion to legs would allow it to glide further; bone or cartilage struts within the membrane would give it better stability and control while in the air; a wider membrane would give it the ability to flap effectively and thus actually fly.  In other words, this serves as a functional pathway for how you could go from an animal with only the capacity to glide to an animal with the capacity to fly.

Do not dismiss this simply because I am talking about mammals instead of birds.  If I can show a functional pathway from one organism to another, it can apply to more than just the specific example I gave.  I could go from a bird that could only glide to a bird that could fly using a similar process.

Also, here is something for you to consider.  You clearly believe in the existence of God and that he created everything that exists.  Yet you assume that he could only have done so by special creation/intelligent design.  Why?  I'm quite serious here.  Why is the only option the functional equivalent of God snapping his fingers in a Q-like fashion and causing fully-formed organisms to appear?
 1. the distance between one tree branch and another tree branch is far less than the distance required to run back along the tree branch, down the tree trunk, along the ground to the other tree, then back up the tree trunk
 2. because of the shorter distance and the fact that it does not require the same degree of leg muscle use
 3. ground predators generally have to wait until their prey is on hte ground to catch it; if the flying squirrel never needs to go to the ground because it can glide between trees, it is safe from most ground predators
 4. You can tell by looking at the place where the the wing bones all come together, especially with bats that have a claw that sticks out in front of the wing

Offline monkeymind

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #153 on: March 14, 2012, 10:31:45 AM »
I asked how an itty bitty mutation would help an animal survive?

Examples of beneficial mutation, in case you are really interested.

1.)  Adaptation to High and Low Temperatures by E. coli.
2.)   Adaptation to Growth in the Dark by Chlamydomonas.
3.) Selection for Large Size in Chlamydomomas
4.) Adaptation to a Low Phosphate Chemostat Environment by a Clonal Line of Yeast
5.) Evidence of genetic divergence and beneficial mutations in bacteria after 10,000 generations
6.) Adaptation of yeast to  a glucose limited environment via gene duplications and natural selection
7.) Molecular evidence for an ancient duplication of the entire yeast genome
8.) Evolution of a new enzymatic function by recombination within a gene.
9.) Changes in the substrate specificities of an enzyme during directed evolution of new functions.
10.)  12% (3 out of 26) random mutations in a strain of bacteria improved fitness in a particular environment.

http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoMutations.html


Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline JeffPT

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #154 on: March 14, 2012, 10:46:04 AM »
Dodged the question with an example of a flying squirrel.  Good try, but again, we are talking about birds.  Ostriches do not count.  Put the steps in your head of the wing evolving.  Let's start with the first step.  What did the very first step look like?  Any ideas?

A slight lengthening of an arm bone through a small genetic mutation that proved advantageous over other individuals in the species is one possible answer.  Another possibility is a slightly more hollow arm bone, thus making the animal a bit lighter than other individuals among the species.   

I asked how an itty bitty mutation would help an animal survive? 

If you're a rabbit living in the Canadian tundra and your itty bitty mutation makes you more white than another rabbit, you have a small, yet statistically significant survival advantage, because the wolves will have a harder time seeing you. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline rockv12

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #155 on: March 14, 2012, 10:53:45 AM »
And I know you're gonna say, "But microscopic changes do help a creature!  Color makes a huge difference!".  Think about the wing.  Can you fly without a fully formed wing?  Can you or can't you?

Yep. Or at least glide, which is how flyers started:



You obviuosly don't understand evolution.  Gliding was the first step?  That's how flying started?  some in here get angry when you make big steps forward like that....

Offline monkeymind

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #156 on: March 14, 2012, 10:54:19 AM »
Penguins feet
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline monkeymind

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #157 on: March 14, 2012, 10:58:29 AM »
Quote
Although mutations that change in protein sequences can be harmful to an organism; on occasions, the effect may be positive in a given environment. In this case, the mutation may enable the mutant organism to withstand particular environmental stresses better than wild-type organisms, or reproduce more quickly. In these cases a mutation will tend to become more common in a population through natural selection.

For example, a specific 32 base pair deletion in human CCR5 (CCR5-?32) confers HIV resistance to homozygotes and delays AIDS onset in heterozygotes.[36] The CCR5 mutation is more common in those of European descent. One possible explanation of the etiology of the relatively high frequency of CCR5-?32 in the European population is that it conferred resistance to the bubonic plague in mid-14th century Europe. People with this mutation were more likely to survive infection; thus its frequency in the population increased.[37] This theory could explain why this mutation is not found in southern Africa, where the bubonic plague never reached. A newer theory suggests that the selective pressure on the CCR5 Delta 32 mutation was caused by smallpox instead of the bubonic plague.[38]

Another example is Sickle cell disease, a blood disorder in which the body produces an abnormal type of the oxygen-carrying substance hemoglobin in the red blood cells. One-third of all indigenous inhabitants of Sub-Saharan Africa carry the gene,[39] because in areas where malaria is common, there is a survival value in carrying only a single sickle-cell gene (sickle cell trait).[40] Those with only one of the two alleles of the sickle-cell disease are more resistant to malaria, since the infestation of the malaria plasmodium is halted by the sickling of the cells which it infests.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline monkeymind

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #158 on: March 14, 2012, 11:00:14 AM »
Quote
Murray Gray: A Breed of Beef Cattle

Murray Gray is a cattle breed, obtained accidentally from a traditional cow species. The calves produced by the specific cow were more productive than those produced by others. Farmers soon noticed the difference and started breeding from the offspring. This way, the Murray breed with some of the most positive characteristics have become popular all over Australia, which then spread to other countries.

CCR5-delta 32: HIV Immunity in Humans

Cysteine-cysteine chemokine receptor 5 (CCR5) is a receptor molecule, located in the membranes of white blood cells (WBCs) and nerve cells. In a cell, CCR5 permits the entry of chemokines that signals the inflammatory response to any foreign particles. The gene responsible for coding CCR5 is present in the human chromosome 3. A mutation in this gene called CCR5-delta 32 (involving deletion of 32 base pairs) affects the normal functioning of the CCR5.

In the initial stages of HIV infection, the virus normally enters through CCR5. However, a mutated CCR5 blocks the entry of HIV. People carrying homozygous mutated CCR5-delta 32 are resistant to HIV, while heterozygous ones are beneficial, as it slows down the disease progression. Thus, CCR5-delta 32 provides partial or complete immunity to HIV. Similarly, it is a beneficial mutation against other chronic diseases.

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/beneficial-mutation.html
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline monkeymind

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #159 on: March 14, 2012, 11:02:17 AM »
So weather we are talking about squirrels. or birds or bacteria, or yeast or cattle or humans, itty bitty changes (can't get much smaller than a gene) can end up being beneficial.
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline rockv12

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #160 on: March 14, 2012, 11:11:53 AM »
Dodged the question with an example of a flying squirrel.  Good try, but again, we are talking about birds.  Ostriches do not count.  Put the steps in your head of the wing evolving.  Let's start with the first step.  What did the very first step look like?  Any ideas?

A slight lengthening of an arm bone through a small genetic mutation that proved advantageous over other individuals in the species is one possible answer.  Another possibility is a slightly more hollow arm bone, thus making the animal a bit lighter than other individuals among the species.   

I asked how an itty bitty mutation would help an animal survive? 

If you're a rabbit living in the Canadian tundra and your itty bitty mutation makes you more white than another rabbit, you have a small, yet statistically significant survival advantage, because the wolves will have a harder time seeing you.

I'm talking significance.  Wings forming!   These over simplified possibilities don't account for fact feathers had to evolve, balance, etc..  Have we ever seen a mutation benefit us in any way?  We see birth defects, not birth advantages....maybe in the movies.... 

Offline rockv12

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #161 on: March 14, 2012, 11:23:20 AM »
So weather we are talking about squirrels. or birds or bacteria, or yeast or cattle or humans, itty bitty changes (can't get much smaller than a gene) can end up being beneficial.
Think about the process you are proposing.  Visualize the entire course in your mind.  Arms evolved to legs to wings?  Our poop hole evolved?  The penis evolved?  The ear evolved?  The eye evolved?  Our nervous system evolved?  Our brain?  We see so many animals survive just fine, they don't need to talk....why do we talk?  Shall i go on?  Little changes mean nothing when you look at the monster job you have of filling in the pieces of the evolutionary puzzle.

Offline sun_king

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #162 on: March 14, 2012, 11:28:57 AM »
I'm talking significance.  Wings forming!   These over simplified possibilities don't account for fact feathers had to evolve, balance, etc..  Have we ever seen a mutation benefit us in any way?  We see birth defects, not birth advantages....maybe in the movies....

... benefit us in any way?

Where do I start??? Ever wonder why the homo sapiens alone have so many different eye colors?

That is a mutation, right? Since Adam and Eve are our common ancestors, shouldn't we be all having the same eye colors???

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #163 on: March 14, 2012, 11:37:18 AM »
Arms evolved to legs to wings?
Yep.
Quote
Our poop hole evolved?
  Yep
Quote
The penis evolved?
Yep
Quote
The ear evolved?
Yep 
Quote
The eye evolved?
Yep
Quote
Our nervous system evolved?
Yep 
Quote
Our brain?
Yep 

I know you have a problem with all of this, but that doesn't automatically mean it didn't happen. I don't actually understand all the physics of what goes on inside the sun, but I still tan nicely in the summer. It happens without my understanding the specifics. As does evolution.

Some of us tan. Some of us think. Some of us do both. Some of us do neither.

I tan too.

Don't tell me you don't tan either.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline monkeymind

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #164 on: March 14, 2012, 11:53:44 AM »
So weather we are talking about squirrels. or birds or bacteria, or yeast or cattle or humans, itty bitty changes (can't get much smaller than a gene) can end up being beneficial.
Think about the process you are proposing.  Visualize the entire course in your mind.  Arms evolved to legs to wings?  Our poop hole evolved?  The penis evolved?  The ear evolved?  The eye evolved?  Our nervous system evolved?  Our brain?  We see so many animals survive just fine, they don't need to talk....why do we talk?  Shall i go on?  Little changes mean nothing when you look at the monster job you have of filling in the pieces of the evolutionary puzzle.

You asked about little changes and I gave some. Now you want to look at the bigger picture. Fine.

You seem hung up about fossils. Look at the big picture. Simple things are found in the oldest strata. Complex things are found in the newest strata. In between the oldest and the newest strata one finds more and more complex things.

So one sees a progression from simple to complex....think about it!
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline velkyn

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #165 on: March 14, 2012, 11:56:41 AM »
I'm talking significance.  Wings forming!   These over simplified possibilities don't account for fact feathers had to evolve, balance, etc..  Have we ever seen a mutation benefit us in any way?  We see birth defects, not birth advantages....maybe in the movies....

and you were given a list of them.  now you trie to move the goalpost and try to narrow it to only humans.  sad. 

Quote
Think about the process you are proposing.  Visualize the entire course in your mind.  Arms evolved to legs to wings?  Our poop hole evolved?  The penis evolved?  The ear evolved?  The eye evolved?  Our nervous system evolved?  Our brain?  We see so many animals survive just fine, they don't need to talk....why do we talk?  Shall i go on?  Little changes mean nothing when you look at the monster job you have of filling in the pieces of the evolutionary puzzle.
and more evidence you are willfully stupid.  It is all little changes.  oooh and animals don't have to talk.  how "profound".   Since you seem unable or unwilling to actually think for yourself, talking allows information to be passed along from person to person over distance, while carrying something.  All evolutionarily advantageous.  Animals make various noises to communicate and some do seem to have a language, like humpback whales, some monkeys: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/clever-monkeys/monkeys-and-language/3948/  etc.  but as I told you earlier, and which you more than obviously ignored, change doesn't happen if a pressure isn't there. 

 
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Offline Dante

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #166 on: March 14, 2012, 12:30:41 PM »
Think about the process you are proposing.  Visualize the entire course in your mind.  Arms evolved to legs to wings?  Our poop hole evolved?  The penis evolved?  The ear evolved?  The eye evolved?  Our nervous system evolved?  Our brain?  We see so many animals survive just fine, they don't need to talk....why do we talk?  Shall i go on?  Little changes mean nothing when you look at the monster job you have of filling in the pieces of the evolutionary puzzle.

I presume you've heard of, or even experienced, humans with webbed fingers and/or toes? Do you suppose that animals could also have that same mutation?  What do you suppose might happen if, in the daily fight for survival in a watery environment, those webbed appendages helped the animal either escape predation, or increase food production?

I'll tell you what might happen. That animal would likely live longer than one without, enabling that webbed animal to pass along it's genes to the next generation. And then, the "begats" start (I assume you're familiar with that term in your book).

Now take all those begats, for MILLIONS OF YEARS, realizing that the gene that allows the webbing to grow becomes more and more prevalent in that species, and tell me how those webbed feet and forelimbs absolutely COULDN'T grow into flippers and fins, one little change at a time.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline rockv12

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #167 on: March 14, 2012, 12:41:15 PM »
So weather we are talking about squirrels. or birds or bacteria, or yeast or cattle or humans, itty bitty changes (can't get much smaller than a gene) can end up being beneficial.
Think about the process you are proposing.  Visualize the entire course in your mind.  Arms evolved to legs to wings?  Our poop hole evolved?  The penis evolved?  The ear evolved?  The eye evolved?  Our nervous system evolved?  Our brain?  We see so many animals survive just fine, they don't need to talk....why do we talk?  Shall i go on?  Little changes mean nothing when you look at the monster job you have of filling in the pieces of the evolutionary puzzle.

You asked about little changes and I gave some. Now you want to look at the bigger picture. Fine.

You seem hung up about fossils. Look at the big picture. Simple things are found in the oldest strata. Complex things are found in the newest strata. In between the oldest and the newest strata one finds more and more complex things.

So one sees a progression from simple to complex....think about it!
You didn't explain the most important change of all!  The topic at hand.  The wing, but rather point to polar bear color?  Again, step by little step, think about it....  Picture a time lapse movie showing each little step and.examples of the advantages that the little steps make.  Have you ever really done that?  Or quickly think about a glider and say, "see gliding eas it!". 

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #168 on: March 14, 2012, 12:54:15 PM »
You didn't explain the most important change of all!  The topic at hand.  The wing, but rather point to polar bear color?  Again, step by little step, think about it....  Picture a time lapse movie showing each little step and.examples of the advantages that the little steps make.  Have you ever really done that?  Or quickly think about a glider and say, "see gliding eas it!".
It's evident you haven't actually sat down and thought seriously and hard about it.  You read books about evolution, but you automatically reject the conclusions in them because of your preconceptions, therefore your understanding is deficient.  Because your understanding about evolution is deficient, you are not competent to make judgments about evolution.  This is in no way an insult - I'm sure you're competent in other areas, and nobody is fully competent in every area of human endeavor.

I can picture a figurative presentation that demonstrates the various little steps and gives examples of those steps quite easily, and it makes sense to me.  This is because I understand the basis of how evolution works, instead of dismissing it because of preconceived notions about how things "have to be".

Also, you need to answer my earlier question, about why special creation/intelligent design is the only acceptable answer to you.

Offline rockv12

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #169 on: March 14, 2012, 12:58:37 PM »
You didn't explain the most important change of all!  The topic at hand.  The wing, but rather point to polar bear color?  Again, step by little step, think about it....  Picture a time lapse movie showing each little step and.examples of the advantages that the little steps make.  Have you ever really done that?  Or quickly think about a glider and say, "see gliding eas it!".
It's evident you haven't actually sat down and thought seriously and hard about it.  You read books about evolution, but you automatically reject the conclusions in them because of your preconceptions, therefore your understanding is deficient.  Because your understanding about evolution is deficient, you are not competent to make judgments about evolution.  This is in no way an insult - I'm sure you're competent in other areas, and nobody is fully competent in every area of human endeavor.

I can picture a figurative presentation that demonstrates the various little steps and gives examples of those steps quite easily, and it makes sense to me.  This is because I understand the basis of how evolution works, instead of dismissing it because of preconceived notions about how things "have to be".

Also, you need to answer my earlier question, about why special creation/intelligent design is the only acceptable answer to you.
Deficient understanding?  Yet, nobody can explain it to me.  Bear color is evolution....thats the big example?  So your visual of an arm lengthening and widening and feathers forming makes sense?  Make it make sense to me....go ahead.  It may take a few sentences, but I'm all ears.  Thanks.  Isnt arguing fun?.  Jk.

Offline Omen

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #170 on: March 14, 2012, 01:02:43 PM »
Deficient understanding?

Yes, extremely deficient and intentional which suggests intellectual dishonesty on your part.

Quote
  Yet, nobody can explain it to me.

You're qualifications keep shifting and your dismissals are done out of personal incredulity.  Earlier you treated evolution as if changes were spontaneous, literally leaping out of an organism at whim, this has nothing to do with the various mechanisms for evolution under biological evolutionary science. 

Why do you expect others to answer for evolution in terms that have nothing to do with evolution?

Why do you keep shifting what you're asking for and dismissing answers out of hand when you receive them?
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Aaron123

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #171 on: March 14, 2012, 01:38:23 PM »
rockv12, can you answer the questions I presented in post 139?  What does the term "god of the gaps" mean to you?
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #172 on: March 14, 2012, 01:42:15 PM »
rockv12

Now I know this is going to be hard, because you'll have to click on a link and then read some stuff and click on another link to get to the next page and finally click on a third link to get to the last page, then click a little more if you want to, but if you do at least that much, and read what is on each page, and take the time to digest what is being said, you will at least know where we are coming from.

I'm not asking you to agree with it. I'm asking you to learn something about what we think happened via evolution. This will make you more able to develop good, sound dumb arguments.

Using your mouse pointer, click on this link to begin:
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/vertebrates/flight/evolve.html
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: The Probability of the Big Bang
« Reply #173 on: March 14, 2012, 02:57:33 PM »
Deficient understanding?  Yet, nobody can explain it to me.  Bear color is evolution....thats the big example?  So your visual of an arm lengthening and widening and feathers forming makes sense?  Make it make sense to me....go ahead.  It may take a few sentences, but I'm all ears.  Thanks.  Isnt arguing fun?.  Jk.
Yes, your understanding is deficient.  The fact that people have to explain evolution to you is proof of that.  The problem is that much of the stuff we're trying to tell you "bounces" off of those preconceptions of yours.  As a result, what doesn't bounce ends up sounding ridiculous to your ears.  What you need to realize is that it is your own mental filter that is causing this, not the explanations.

Yes, bear color is evolution.  Wing formation is evolution.  Flipper development is evolution.  Eye formation is evolution.  All of these and so many more are because evolution is the process which describes how species change over time.  Yet you are apparently not willing to even concede this is possible because you already believe in special creation/intelligent design.  So I'll ask again, why do you think special creation/intelligent design are necessary?  I mean this seriously.  Why does your understanding and conception of God need him to "intelligently design" various species, which he then pops into existence?  Speaking hypothetically, why couldn't God use evolution instead and let life develop to see what ends up coming about?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 03:00:00 PM by jaimehlers »