Poll

metzizah b’ peh - Circumcision -  Under the practice, the rabbi or mohel removes blood from the wound with his mouth. If you happened to witness this, would you:

Call the police, as this is sick child abuse and pedophilia!
17 (70.8%)
Boo and hiss the practitioners.
4 (16.7%)
Say live and let live..
1 (4.2%)
Ask to be next in line..
0 (0%)
I like Ice Cream..
2 (8.3%)

Total Members Voted: 24

Author Topic: What would your reaction be if this procedure was happening in front of you?  (Read 1674 times)

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Offline Brakeman

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Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline Nick

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Wow, how the f*ck did something like that ever get started? :(
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Offline Add Homonym

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Wow, how the f*ck did something like that ever get started? :(

Well, I think we have sure proof that herpes did not exists when it started.

Or, no comment.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Cultures have different attitudes about baby genitalia. I have seen women in third world countries kiss and nuzzle a naked baby's wee-wee while cooing and tickling. Once a mom offered the baby to me, expecting me to do the same. I just took the baby and bounced it around without the oral extra touch. I wish I had had the language skills to say, "I gave at the office," or "Is the little boy's name Clinton?"  :P
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Offline joebbowers

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Unfortunately if you called the police, you would be the one arrested. Child abuse, mutilation, and pedophilia are allowed if it's for a religious excuse reason.
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Offline Karl

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I have seen women in third world countries kiss and nuzzle a naked baby's wee-wee ...

Usually dogs do that and it is broadly accepted. Mind that they do not need (even if they could) to pretend following religious reasons for their actions.

Where I live (Venezuela), playing around with children's genitals is also considered normal. There is nothing you can do against it but look the other way or move to another place. These people will not change or understand that we find their behaviour strange. They find ours just as puzzling.

Offline Seppuku

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I really wanted to go for the Ice Cream vote, because I do like Ice Cream. I don't think calling the police would do much, so I think the booing and hissing is the only result I could go for. I think it is disgusting, surely if you want to mutilate your own genitalia then that's your choice, but an infant is too young to even make the choice, if they had one. And of course the sucking of the blood, hard to say if it's genuine paedophilia or just an old and weird tradition they believe God wishes them to carry out. If they're getting a sexual drive from it, then yes, lock him up, assuming it could be proven in a court of law.

But the fact the baby caught herpes as a result, if he were a doctor, I'm sure the process would have been considered malpractice, I'd hope the right legal action is taken against him, but then it's a religious tradition and could cause uproar. Some traditions are best left in the past.
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Offline changeling

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Rabbis and Catholic priests, both looking for some excuse to suck on
a young boy.
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Offline inveni0

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First of all, I'm circumcised...and two of my three sons are also circumcised.  It wasn't my choice to be circumcised myself, but I hardly feel "mutilated", and neither do my sons.  It would be like calling the piercing of a baby's ears mutilation.  It's not.  My penis works just fine (as evidenced by the three sons).  I'm not impotent.  I have a healthy (if not overactive) sexual desire, and my wife prefers the aesthetic appeal of a circumcised penis.

That being said, licking a bloody penis is gross, even just for sanitary reasons.  We aren't dogs, and our mouths are far from antiseptic.  This process could lead to infection and deformation.  I wouldn't call the cops (unless the Rabi is rubbing himself during), but I would certainly make it known that their practice is not acceptable, regardless of religion.
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Offline Seppuku

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Okay, mutilation is perhaps too strong of a word as it's not really a disfigurement or like losing a limb, but I think if it's your choice then it's fine, it's your body, I know I personally wouldn't want it, maybe if I had it when I was younger it'd feel normal and it might now bother so much, though I probably still wouldn't like the idea of having it forced on me.

I  didn't have a family that pushed religious traditions on us (they believed beliefs were up to us) and decided if we wanted to change our body wait until we're old enough and then make that decision, ear piercings I think would have been an exception because they heal up, I doubt they would have let my sister stretch her ear lobes when she was a teenager.
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Offline inveni0

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There was a period in the US where it was thought that circumcisions should be done for sanitary reasons.  It was studied, proved not to make a difference, and now people are opting out of them.  As I said, my first two sons were circumcised.  But we had some trouble with my second son's, so we opted out of circumcision for the third child.

There are a lot of decisions parents have to make for kids.  And they're all forced onto the child.  Many will affect the child for their entire life, are more harmful than circumcision and are not based within religion.  But circumcision makes for a good shock argument amongst atheists...  The bottom line is that it is not in any way harmful as long as you help it to heal properly.

But proper healing does not require kisses and tonguing.
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Offline atheola

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This fuck has herpes, knows about it and continues the practice..It's called child endangerment and in this case since he knowingly gave this child the virus it amounts to manslaughter.
Since it's under the auspices of "religious tradition" they'll give him the 007 rating of license to kill.
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Offline Seppuku

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Of course they make more harmful decisions for their kids and in the example this thread is based on the main issue I think is that the conditions for the circumcision resulted in a fatality, which is wrong and certainly it's irresponsible to be passing germs to an open wounds. If a doctor licked or kissed their patient's wound and the patient died as a result of any diseases or infection that occurred as a result then that doctor would be done for malpractice and I hope the Rabbi responsible is faced with the same kind of penalty a doctor would receive. Of course, I wouldn't phone the police upon seeing the Rabbi kiss it, that would be a bit far as I said it's not likely something the Rabbi is deriving sexual pleasure from. If I knew the Rabbi had herpes and witnessed this, I would have stopped him from doing it.

However, I don't see how circumcision is a decision that has to be made (as you said there's a lot of decisions parents have to make and are forced), it may be the requirement of a religion, but then religion is a choice based on what a person comes to believe and something we shouldn't be forcing on our kids. There are worse things for a parent to do, I admit, but it doesn't mean I support them. Sure I was forced to eat stuff I didn't like eating to encourage me to eat healthily and was forced to go to school, but these are things that help raise me as a child and benefit me as a whole. Eating healthy = good, being educated = good. I don't see what benefit circumcision has for a parent to force it on their kids, other than as part of a religious tradition, there's no health benefits and if its benefit is only cosmetic or offer a better sex life then of course (I think I've heard that argument before), it can wait IMO - I didn't get my tattoo when I was a baby nor would I have needed to worry about my sex life right about then.
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Offline inveni0

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However, I don't see how circumcision is a decision that has to be made (as you said there's a lot of decisions parents have to make and are forced), it may be the requirement of a religion, but then religion is a choice based on what a person comes to believe and something we shouldn't be forcing on our kids. There are worse things for a parent to do, I admit, but it doesn't mean I support them. Sure I was forced to eat stuff I didn't like eating to encourage me to eat healthily and was forced to go to school, but these are things that help raise me as a child and benefit me as a whole. Eating healthy = good, being educated = good. I don't see what benefit circumcision has for a parent to force it on their kids, other than as part of a religious tradition, there's no health benefits and if its benefit is only cosmetic or offer a better sex life then of course (I think I've heard that argument before), it can wait IMO - I didn't get my tattoo when I was a baby nor would I have needed to worry about my sex life right about then.

The worse things can be things that aren't necessary...like forcing them into extra-curricular activities and then watching them fail and be scarred because of it (simple example), but then continuing to come down on them.  There are things like this that are negative.

Also, it CAN wait, but waiting means that you'll pay 20x more for the procedure.  And it's quite different than a tattoo, too.  I challenge you to name anyone who is circumcised that wishes they weren't.  There is literally no difference.  It's not like cutting off earlobes.
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Offline atheola

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Wait! Tats improve my sex life? Well, mine is defective then. ;D
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Offline Seppuku

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However, I don't see how circumcision is a decision that has to be made (as you said there's a lot of decisions parents have to make and are forced), it may be the requirement of a religion, but then religion is a choice based on what a person comes to believe and something we shouldn't be forcing on our kids. There are worse things for a parent to do, I admit, but it doesn't mean I support them. Sure I was forced to eat stuff I didn't like eating to encourage me to eat healthily and was forced to go to school, but these are things that help raise me as a child and benefit me as a whole. Eating healthy = good, being educated = good. I don't see what benefit circumcision has for a parent to force it on their kids, other than as part of a religious tradition, there's no health benefits and if its benefit is only cosmetic or offer a better sex life then of course (I think I've heard that argument before), it can wait IMO - I didn't get my tattoo when I was a baby nor would I have needed to worry about my sex life right about then.

The worse things can be things that aren't necessary...like forcing them into extra-curricular activities and then watching them fail and be scarred because of it (simple example), but then continuing to come down on them.  There are things like this that are negative.

Also, it CAN wait, but waiting means that you'll pay 20x more for the procedure.  And it's quite different than a tattoo, too.  I challenge you to name anyone who is circumcised that wishes they weren't.  There is literally no difference.  It's not like cutting off earlobes.

There's few testimonies on this page, I've encountered pages of parents regretting it and situations where circumcision has gone wrong (like with the OP), but this is just a source of somebody asking the question and getting answers from people claiming to have been circumcised. Some were happy they got it, some regretted it:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081225035309AA3i97z

I also came across this, (click) I've not personally checked the sources where they claim the quotes are from and not all of them go into detail, but I'd say enough of them  to suggest that there are people who do regret it.


As for extra-curricular activities, if I was a parent I wouldn't force my kids into extra-curricular activities, ESPECIALLY if it hurt their self-esteem - I'd want my kids to gain confidence, not lose it.

I was never forced into extra-curricular activities and I'm not worse off. I did extra-curricular activities at University though and got heavily involved with the students' union and various societies. At school there were activities I did try out, joined the football/soccer team, found it boring, joined the school choir and was crap at it, joined the cubs then went into the scouts and then I got bored of that. At no point were my parents forceful, just supportive. I also started Karate and loved it to bits, I might not have even discovered it if I was forced into taking up football as a sport...heck I STILL find football boring and it's the most hyped about sport in this country and people naturally assume you support a football team (I don't). So, as far as extra-curricular activities go, I think it would be stupid for a parent to 'force' it onto their kids.

Also, beauty pageants and turning 5 year old girls into selfish slutty princesses, if there is a God and he's really punishing the world with earthquakes and tsunamis, it's probably that kind of thing that's angering him, not homosexuals, liberals and atheists. [edit] There's plenty of awful things parents do with their kids, but I think all they're irrelevant, particularly as I don't agree with them and some of them I am disgusted by...like 5 year old princesses.

As for cost, if it's more expensive then your decision had best be worth the money, I wouldn't be out to save myself money in case my kid grew up and wanted a circumcision...heck, I'd probably encourage him to take it out of his own pocket, so he'd better ask himself if it's worth it.

Quote
Wait! Tats improve my sex life? Well, mine is defective then.

Apparently so, but there's also some who claim to have had a worse sex life as a result. So I wouldn't be so quick with that pair of scissors there boyo, especially if you have poor eye sight.  :P
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 04:41:20 PM by Seppuku »
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Offline atheola

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As a cranky ass grampa and parent I'm gonna FORCE, yes force my grandkids to clean their rooms and failure may or may not result in mutilation. &)
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Offline flapdoodle64

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First of all, I'm circumcised...and two of my three sons are also circumcised.  It wasn't my choice to be circumcised myself, but I hardly feel "mutilated", and neither do my sons.  It would be like calling the piercing of a baby's ears mutilation.  It's not.  My penis works just fine (as evidenced by the three sons).  I'm not impotent.  I have a healthy (if not overactive) sexual desire, and my wife prefers the aesthetic appeal of a circumcised penis.


Sorry man, but I was circumcized as a baby, and it is indeed mutilation.  You don't call it mutilation because you live in a place and time where the practice is accepted.  But it's mutilation.  You should have allowed your sons to grow to age 18 before you let some freak cut their wangs.  Fine that your wife digs it...but if you hadn't been cut and she preferred men cut, would you have let a doctor cut your adult wang for her?

I don't go around hating on my parents for getting my wang mutilated in 1964, but let's not hide genital mutilation behind euphemisms anymore.  You want to get your wang mutilated, fine with me. Your wife digs mutilated wangs, fine with me. 

But infliction of this practice on babies who cannot consent is crazy sh!t leftover from our primitive sadistic ancestors.  Let's be honest.

Offline nogodsforme

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I once saw a Penn and Teller video (which I won't link to as I am at work) that showed a guy stretching his circumsized foreskin back over his penis. He was an advocate of reclaiming the lost body bit. As I recall, as a woman, it was a tad hard to watch. Don't know how a dude would feel about this. Wouldn't it hurt?  :?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline flapdoodle64

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  I challenge you to name anyone who is circumcised that wishes they weren't.  There is literally no difference.  It's not like cutting off earlobes.

Well, if there were no difference, then circumcision wouldn't exist.

Personally, I can tell you that even though I don't sit up at night and think about it, I would have preferred not to have been cut as a baby. 

Babies can't talk and cannot consciously remember the experience, but they sure as hell cry when it's done to them and no doubt their junk is sore afterwords. 

If we don't think baby pain counts as much as adult pain, why do we try to avoid sticking them with diaper pins? Hell, just stick that pin in anyplace...he won't remember it!

Seriously, it's amazing to me that people can talk about needlessly cutting into the flesh of days old babies as if were no worse than changing a diaper. 

What you see here folks, is the power of cultural brainwashing. 

When I was a tot, and noticed that my dad's pecker was different than my brother's and mine, and when he explained circumcision, I thought that was just the sickest thing I'd ever heard.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 03:59:46 PM by flapdoodle64 »

Offline rickymooston

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I am not Jewish.

I assume in most cases, the practice s not sexual at all but obviously, there are more sterile ways of performing circumcision.

Had I not heard this is how they do it and witnesses it, I,d be shocked.

This must be how some of them hVe done it for generatiins. Ssuming all their men are not living in constang pain, the procedure is likdly not as bD as my imagination might suggest.

It would therefore be silly to call the police. I zuppose one could suggest more modern ways of doing the procedure.

This is different than female circumcision because the male community both enforcesvand suffers from this. The Moil must have had the same tbing done to him.
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Offline atheola

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I think earlobe removal should be the cultural norm instead of dick covering removal... The foreskin has a practical use especially when running through thorn bushes, but earlobes? Ehhh..chop em off..we don't need em.
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Offline joebbowers

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Circumcism is mutilation, the fact that it is socially acceptable does not make it not so. Also, the simple fact is that circumcision is unnecessary and doing the procedures leads to more complications than not doing it. Ear piercing is also mutilation. The difference is informed consent. How many uncircumcised men grow up and decide for themselves that they want to be circumcised? Very very few. How many girls (or to a lesser extent boys) grow up and decide for themselves that they want their ears pierced. Almost all.

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Offline rickymooston

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Your point about consent is of course noted.

Circumcism is mutilation

This is a bit of an exageration.

Quote
Also, the simple fact is that circumcision is unnecessary and doing the procedures leads to more complications than not doing it.

As I understand it, you can get complications with or without it. Both are rare.

My mom had me circumcized based on the belief that it was cleaner. My dad wasn't circumicized.
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Offline flapdoodle64

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[


Circumcism is mutilation

This is a bit of an exageration.

Quote


I don't think it's an exageration at all.

When brown people in Africa cut the genitals of children, we call it genital mutilation.  They think it is the proper thing to do and probably think it's aesthetically superior.  They probably think a greater good is achieved or there is a health benefit. 

But it's still an irrational and sadistic ritual. 

The same thing is true when white people in America cut the junk of a baby boy. 

I'm not saying it's the greatest crime that North Americans commit, far from it.

But the rationalization, justification and denial are sickening.

We should avoid such things here.

Offline jaimehlers

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Not another "circumcision is/isn't mutilation" argument...  I've been in one before, and it's about as useless as a fifth wheel on the tail end of a car.

Offline inveni0

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First of all, I'm circumcised...and two of my three sons are also circumcised.  It wasn't my choice to be circumcised myself, but I hardly feel "mutilated", and neither do my sons.  It would be like calling the piercing of a baby's ears mutilation.  It's not.  My penis works just fine (as evidenced by the three sons).  I'm not impotent.  I have a healthy (if not overactive) sexual desire, and my wife prefers the aesthetic appeal of a circumcised penis.


Sorry man, but I was circumcized as a baby, and it is indeed mutilation.  You don't call it mutilation because you live in a place and time where the practice is accepted.  But it's mutilation.  You should have allowed your sons to grow to age 18 before you let some freak cut their wangs.  Fine that your wife digs it...but if you hadn't been cut and she preferred men cut, would you have let a doctor cut your adult wang for her?

I don't go around hating on my parents for getting my wang mutilated in 1964, but let's not hide genital mutilation behind euphemisms anymore.  You want to get your wang mutilated, fine with me. Your wife digs mutilated wangs, fine with me. 

But infliction of this practice on babies who cannot consent is crazy sh!t leftover from our primitive sadistic ancestors.  Let's be honest.

If you feel that way, then you must have one messed up penis.  Mine is quite handsome...hence the reason I don't feel mutilated.
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Offline flapdoodle64

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If you feel that way, then you must have one messed up penis.  Mine is quite handsome...hence the reason I don't feel mutilated.

That's pretty insulting. 

Also a cheap way to dismiss someone's argument.   

But considering you paid a doctor to mutilate your kids' junk, I shouldn't expect much empathy. 

Offline flapdoodle64

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Not another "circumcision is/isn't mutilation" argument...  I've been in one before, and it's about as useless as a fifth wheel on the tail end of a car.

Agree that it's tiresome, but circumcision is an excellent metaphor for religion.

Painful, cruel, frightening, ultimately uneccessary, inflicted upon children too young to consent or fight back.  Piled high to the ceiling with erroneous rationalizations and justifications, and boy do people get hostile if you challenge those rationalizations!

Ulitmately it's about conformity and appearances. 

Cutting into a fleshy area, filled with nerve endings, inflicting pain and terror on a newborn baby who cannot consent, for no purpose other than a conditioned expectation of what a guy's dong is 'supposed' to look like, for such purposes is bizarre to say the least. 
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 02:27:23 PM by flapdoodle64 »