Author Topic: "De we have free will?" Commentary thread  (Read 1453 times)

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Offline screwtape

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"De we have free will?" Commentary thread
« on: March 05, 2012, 09:37:23 AM »
This thread is for non-participants to post their thoughts or observations on the debate. Please do not post in the debate thread if you are not one of the two participants. Thanks.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: "De we have free will?" Commentary thread
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2012, 09:47:21 AM »
BM
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Offline kin hell

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Re: "De we have free will?" Commentary thread
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2012, 07:57:00 AM »
I must admit surprise at magic limiting his god. 
It is the only possible way freewill could exist in a 3Ogod universe admittedly, but it totally denies Omniscience.
And if the 3O god is actually only 2O, then to what other limitations is he subject?


I'm actually surprised to see you organising this screwt I thought you actively disliked this topic mate? Of course you may not have had a choice. ;)

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all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: "De we have free will?" Commentary thread
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2012, 08:28:28 AM »
A debate on free will?  And I wasn't consulted?  Heresy!!!!!   >:(
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline screwtape

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Re: "De we have free will?" Commentary thread
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2012, 08:53:04 AM »
I'm actually surprised to see you organising this screwt I thought you actively disliked this topic mate?

I loath it.  But I'm not a participant and if other people want to beat their heads against a rock, who am I to stop them?  They have free will and my omniscience does not inhibit it in any way.  I am a kind and benevolent god...uh, I mean, mod.  Kind and benevolent mod.  Yes. 


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Offline kin hell

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Re: "De we have free will?" Commentary thread
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2012, 09:26:55 AM »
I'm actually surprised to see you organising this screwt I thought you actively disliked this topic mate?

I loath it.  But I'm not a participant and if other people want to beat their heads against a rock, who am I to stop them?  They have free will and my omniscience does not inhibit it in any way.  I am a kind and benevolent god...uh, I mean, mod.  Kind and benevolent mod.  Yes.

just a kind of bent/violent mod yeshhhhh who created the rock and the head to bang against it.
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Offline EV

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Re: "De we have free will?" Commentary thread
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2012, 10:50:28 AM »
A debate on free will?  And I wasn't consulted?  Heresy!!!!!   >:(
Sorry anfauglir... I'll let you know next time! Didn't know you liked the topic... :P
But I'm not a participant and if other people want to beat their heads against a rock, who am I to stop them?
Banging your head against a brick wall is kinda fun. Especially if you have a very thick head like me.

Alright my response is up. And it's monstrously long... Sorry about that.
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: "De we have free will?" Commentary thread
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2012, 11:01:49 AM »
Some brilliant thinkers have said we do have free will, while other brilliant thinkers have said we don't.

I am forced to conclude that we do.  ;D

If asked where I stand before the debate began, I would say, yes, I believe we have free will. Sort of. Within limits. But I've never given it that much though, whereas EV has, and I'm forced to concede that he has better points than me. I'm glad we're not debating.

He and MM may actually make this interesting. Or at least as interesting as they are allowed to make it, given the subject matter.

Sadly, methinks there will be no name calling either. Drats. I do  hope this doesn't mean we're getting civilized.



Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: "De we have free will?" Commentary thread
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2012, 11:13:28 AM »
Sadly, methinks there will be no name calling either. Drats. I do  hope this doesn't mean we're getting civilized.

No worries. Two people do not a representative whole make. ;)

P.S.

If it appears that the civility and mutual respect starts spreading, I'll be here to balance the equation with my amazing god like troll powers. 8)
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Offline screwtape

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Re: "De we have free will?" Commentary thread
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2012, 11:41:24 AM »
Banging your head against a brick wall is kinda fun.

"There is probably no pleasure equal to the pleasure of climbing a dangerous Alp; but it is a pleasure which is confined strictly to people who can find pleasure in it. "

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Offline ungod

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Re: "De we have free will?" Commentary thread
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2012, 05:51:26 PM »
We have free will within the confines of the laws of nature, and what our neighbours and society will let us get away with.

As far as God-given free will, that is a pile of bollux, a cunning ploy by the priestly to allow their imaginary creator to shirk all responsibility for his creation, and lay a guilt trip on us for all the evil around us.
How absurd it is, to see in the Holy Book, not 10 Suggestions, but 10 COMMANDMENTS!
Not only that, but everlasting punishment for not following them. What the feck kind of free will is that?
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Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: "De we have free will?" Commentary thread
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2012, 08:33:43 AM »
I've got to admit that I'm puzzled as to the concept that there is no free will at all. Even if everything physical is predetermined down to the last atom, I can't fathom how that translates into our choices being similarly predetermined by past events and influences. How minute are the "choices" covered by this? What if some days I resist that chocolate cake, and at other times I have a bite? Or two? What if I have two almost identical swatches of paint for the back bedroom and finally manage to pick one over the other? It seems as though we have almost infinite numbers of choices every day, on astoundingly similar matters, and choose one or the other option at more or less equal rates. How is every one of these predetermined?

I have almost no background in philosophy, so maybe I'm missing something.

Offline monkeymind

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Re: "De we have free will?" Commentary thread
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2012, 08:46:41 AM »
In a multiple universe scenario, you picked both swatches  of paint.

Uh oh, I got into the free will thing....but I didn't want to!
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: "De we have free will?" Commentary thread
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2012, 08:51:44 AM »
What if some days I resist that chocolate cake, and at other times I have a bite? Or two?

For me, it works like this......

Determine your scores for "hunger", "self-image", "happiness", "the day I had", "who else is around", "amount of chocolate left", "time since last chocolate eaten", "weather conditions".....and so forth.
Add those scores together....or possibly multiply, or divide, or some other complex formula.
If your sum total is equal or greater than your current "required score" to eat chocolate, then you eat a piece.  If your score is over by 10%, you eat two pieces.  If your score is over by 50% - or if you are American  ;D - you eat the whole damn bar.

Every variable fluctuates constantly, as you can imagine.  And depending on those variables, the "score required to eat" will vary as well....as well as (perhaps) the relationships between variables.

Consider this.....clearly some days you eat a piece of chocolate, other days you resist.  Why?  What happens to one's "will" that means one day it is "strong enough", another day "too weak"? 

Free will has to explain a whole lot of questions as to why a person does something on a particular day that they did not do the week before, which the believer in a deterministic universe has a simple answer for.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Grimm

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Re: "De we have free will?" Commentary thread
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2012, 08:05:20 AM »
If I am a brain in a jar, I have no way of perceiving that I am a brain in a jar, thus I can discount the idea - not without it having merit, but for the simple fact that there is no point.  If I am limited by what my senses can perceive, I have to begin from the position that my senses are telling me (at least as best they can) the truth, otherwise I have no starting point with which to address reality.

This debate is kind of like that, don't you think? 

If I don't have free will, then I will not recognize that fact.  While it leads to certain logical conclusions, it abrogates responsibility - which is the foundation of ethics.  Without ethics, there is no enduring society.

So. 

I'm going to say that whether we have free will or just its illusion makes no difference as there is no ability for those of us within the system to perceive anything other than what we can see with our inherent limitations.  Either we accept that responsibility is important, and thus have a foundation for law, social interaction, ethical consideration, and more, or we don't and all of these constructs were going to happen anyway and...

... well, anyway, you end up at the same point from either direction.  The fact that our choices change when new information surfaces is enough.
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Offline RNS

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Re: "De we have free will?" Commentary thread
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2012, 09:16:51 AM »
BM
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