Author Topic: Why all the debate?  (Read 5580 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Aceluffy

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 120
  • Darwins +6/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Why all the debate?
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2012, 08:15:15 AM »

I just assumed since Christians believe that when we die we will see God, so if there is not God nothing will happen. If nothing happens at all I guess we won't know...since we'd be dead.


So you made a baseless claim when you wrote " Once we die we will know "
Until someone actually comes back from the dead ( If that's even a possible event to occur ) & informed us about what's beyond our material world, everything else is just assumption.
This is exactly why we debate religious people, to make them admit that whatever they claimed are actually just opinions or assumptions, not fact.

If you've seen half the atrocities commited in the name of religion that I saw, most likely you would come to the same conclusion that we're better off without religion.
If we were made in His image, then why aren't humans invisible too?

Offline Karl

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 393
  • Darwins +3/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Why all the debate?
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2012, 08:54:09 AM »
So why do we have this forum here for talking about how God is not real.
Sometimes I ask myself the same question as at times the discussions go very much into details. But afterall it is an atheist forum. It is difficult to grasp for me as I have never believed in a god. Having had many conversations with believers, from moderate and relatively normal people to crazy fundamentalists up to the hardcore ones, I consider this forum forming part of a movement to reduce the number of theists by showing them how the scientific method works. That means showing them that their religion is purely fictional with no relation to the real world. It is about the danger religion brings to individuals and society as a whole.

Quote
I know how we can find out for sure. Once we die we will know. Its as simply as that.
No it is not but the comments before have already pointed that out.
Quote
So why do we waste our time trying to disprove God, theres always going to be those who believe in God and those who don't and once we die, we will find out.
It is not a waste of time to avoid suffering the results of religious insanity. Diproving god is the same task as disproving the existence of the flying spaghetti monster. It is impossible.

I agree that some people will not or cannot live without their religion. There are many though that profit from the discussions here. Those are the ones that realize, better late than never, what their religion is all about.
Quote
So good luck to everyone.
Luck sometimes is a welcome coincidence but most of the problems cannot be solved by it.

Finally my issue is not convincing people of the non existence of god. I am more interrested in eliminating the danger religion brings with it and realizing that god does not exist goes along with that. There should be an indication on the bible as there is on cigarette packs. "Smoking kills" should be amended to "following the rules of this books is dangerous to your health and the health of others, reading and following them kills". That is why this forum is important.

Offline One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10950
  • Darwins +284/-37
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: Why all the debate?
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2012, 08:55:15 AM »
jakec47, I hope this website will do a better job of answering your question than any one person could.
http://whatstheharm.net/
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Samuelxcs

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 669
  • Darwins +6/-18
  • Gender: Male
  • The oldest and strongest emotion of humans is fear
    • Fallen Angels
Re: Why all the debate?
« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2012, 09:35:59 AM »
If I asked the question "Why are we here?" would you know what I mean by that? If god is not real, there would be no good reason for this forum to exist. Of course, the theists may say it is because they want the atheists to join them or something. The atheists may say they want the theists to stop believing in something that does not exist. They would argue until the end of their lives and when they are dead, they will know for sure if god is real or not....but they would still probably argue about something.
"The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naïve forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget."
-Thomas Szasz

Offline Jake

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 210
  • Darwins +9/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • I see what you do there.
    • Pat Condel's Godless Comedy
Re: Why all the debate?
« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2012, 10:58:49 AM »
If I asked the question "Why are we here?" would you know what I mean by that? If god is not real, there would be no good reason for this forum to exist. Of course, the theists may say it is because they want the atheists to join them or something. The atheists may say they want the theists to stop believing in something that does not exist. They would argue until the end of their lives and when they are dead, they will know for sure if god is real or not....but they would still probably argue about something.


I can't speak for all of us, though I, myself, am not concerned with whatever gods or fabled creatures anybody wants to believe in insofar as that goes unto itself.    Believe in space hamsters and unicorns and faeries for all I care; believe in gods and spirits and ghosts and UFO's and bigfoot and the loch ness monster if it pleases you to do so.

Just keep your personal beliefs on invisible magic things the fuck away from the political platforms that shape laws and create administrative policies that have very real effects on billions of people.

You want to believe in leperechauns, that's just ducky; have fun with it.    Let's have wonderful discussions about what you think about leperechauns.

You want to regulate who gets medical coverage based on what you and other Leperechaunites think the Leperechaun King dictates as being right and good?   Fuck you, go die in a fire, eat shit, rot in a ditch, go drown in a sewer, get bent, eat a dick, get the fuck off my lawn, get the fuck out of my country and, while you're at it, stuff that bullshit Holy Leperechanite book so far up your ass that if I punch you in the nose I'll turn a page.

You want to believe in some god/s/ess?    Awesome.   I'd love to sit and have tea with you and have lovely discussions about why you think this and why you think that and why you believe what you believe.    It could be a glorious exploration of human interests.


You want the legal authority, based on what you suppose your godly god-thing dictates as based on the iron age equivalent of the Weekly World News, to criminalize people based on sexual preferences between mutually consenting adults, create laws preventing them from benefiting from the legal aspects of marriage status AS WELL AS determine that it's not merely ethically tolerable but ideal to psychologically and emotionally abuse, ostracize, condemn and alienate people for these selfsame reasons?

How about 'Go fuck yourself' with a side order of 'Take a piss on a powerline'.


You want to believe that there's this cosmic morality that you must adhere to?    Ok, so long as you're not hurting anybody else, practice whatever ritualized or elaborately complicated beliefs you like.    I'd be rather interested in learning why you think and determine such things as you do.


You want to radically alter the education system to exclude known venues of fact-oriented sciences in favor of teaching only that which supports the premise of your idea of a moral system and mandate obligatory conformity to its precepts and implied obligations?

May you be the first recipient of cancer treatment as researched by rigorous prayer sessions.

'Nuff said.
"I don't respect your religious beliefs and I don't care if this offends you." - Pat Condel and myself along with him.   I do respect intelligence, rationality and logical consideration, however.    Humor's always good too.

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: Why all the debate?
« Reply #34 on: March 07, 2012, 11:14:35 AM »
Actually Jesus did not say that they should be brought before HIM. It was a parable it was the man of noble birth who wanted the servant to be killed in front of him. In second Peter it says, "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting ANYONE to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9 NIV) He does not want anyone to die so he surely does not want anyone to be killed in front of him.
  Oh that’s hilarious.  The man of noble birth is Jesus in the parable.  Now, I’m assuming, perhaps incorrectly that you know what a parable is, a story in where metaphors are used, and one thing means another.  The context of this parable is the return of JC.  It is largely the same as the parable of the ten bags of gold, Matthew 25.  Each postulates a man going away and leaving his servants with money to handle as they will.  The Matthew version has that those who do not take care of the talents the way the man asks will be thrown into the “darkness”, and uses the usual “gnashing of teeth” threats.  The only difference is that in the version in Luke the man, e.g. Jesus Christ who will go away (be killed and return), asks for people who don’t want him to return as their king to be killed before him. 

So, do you know what a parable is, Jakec47?  If you do, and you know that they are telling stories to explain a point (or in JC’s stated case, to confuse people and prevent them from understanding and accepting him), what or who do you think the noble man represents?

As for your claim of the verses in 2 Peter, why yes it does say that.  I’ve read the bible and I know it quite well. Your bible is full of things like this, utter contradictions.  The message that early Christians were telling changed to excuse the inaction of their god and to get a bigger audience.  It wasn’t just a jewish messiah anymore, it was a savior for all mankind.  We go from JC saying that people who don’t comprehend and accept him are kept from doing that by his/God’s actions (Matthe 13).  We have Paul saying that this god picks and chooses who he allowed to believe (Romans 9).  So much for wanting everyone to be saved.  Universalist Christians often glom onto this verse in trying to ignore the fact that their god repeatedly says that non-believers are worth no more than death or hell. They don’t like such a mean god.  Again, we see Christians having all sorts of versions of what their god “really” meant.  You might find this interesting: http://www.religioustolerance.org/salvatio.htm 

Quote
Sorry I didn't realize velkyn was a girls name. But I don't care if you discuss this, I just posted that to see why people would discuss this, not to want them to stop, if i wanted them to stop I wouldn't be here. Its not like im being force to be on this site. And if you say you were a Christian and now your still a decent person, if you don't believe according to God your not a decent person but a wicked person. I'm just saying that I was bad, meaning I transgressed God's law, and now I don't transgress God's law very often, but if I do, I have an advocate in Christ Jesus. Not that I can keep on sinning just because of Jesus but if i'm truly sorry, and when I sin I am truly sorry. The sin I once loved I now HATE. But sometimes I still sin because essentially I can't control myself. I dislike that I can't control myself it makes me angry, but God knows how I'm just a weak human who is prone to do these things, hence that is why Jesus died.

there are gender markers on this forum that you can use. Look to your left, you’ll see “gender:” under the avatar picture.   Velkyn isn’t a girls name but the circle with the cross attached underneath it is a designation for female. 

Nice to say that I’m a “wicked person” for not believing in your imaginary bogeyman. :D  Nope, not at all.  Your god doesn’t exist so it’s just your opinion that someone who doesn’t agree with you is “wicked”. Each Christian says the same thing, you don’t agree with me, wahhhh, so you’re a bad bad person. &)   And you claim not to “transgress God’s law very often”.  Of course, it’s your decision on what you think God’s law actually is.  I’m fairly sure you don’t follow the commandments in Exodus and Leviticus.  I’m sure you don’t follow JC’s command that to get into heaven, you should give up all of your things and follow him as a preacher.   

I’m sorry you can’t control yourself.  I can with no problem (no murders, no kicking puppies, no gorging on candy, etc) and don’t need some magical stick and carrot to tell me what to do.  Your god supposedly said that in him all things are possible, so why can’t it help you?  I’m guessing you claim “free will”, but that fails when one considers that your god supposedly has interfered repeatedly in human history and if one believes the claims of miracles bandied about nowadays, he still is.  I’m wondering, who do you think make such “weak humans”?  Who decided to supposedly leave ignorant humans in a garden and not notice this “snake” that if it were omniscient, would know what would happen with the “snake”?   Then make it necessary, to clean up its own mess, to kill itself for itself in a bloody murder to give you an excuse why you don’t have to even try to obey its laws. Quite a “god” you have there.
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline jakec47

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 108
  • Darwins +4/-13
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Why all the debate?
« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2012, 11:10:09 PM »
So, do you know what a parable is, Jakec47?  If you do, and you know that they are telling stories to explain a point (or in JC’s stated case, to confuse people and prevent them from understanding and accepting him), what or who do you think the noble man represents?

As for your claim of the verses in 2 Peter, why yes it does say that.  I’ve read the bible and I know it quite well. Your bible is full of things like this, utter contradictions.  The message that early Christians were telling changed to excuse the inaction of their god and to get a bigger audience.  It wasn’t just a jewish messiah anymore, it was a savior for all mankind.  We go from JC saying that people who don’t comprehend and accept him are kept from doing that by his/God’s actions (Matthe 13).  We have Paul saying that this god picks and chooses who he allowed to believe (Romans 9).  So much for wanting everyone to be saved.  Universalist Christians often glom onto this verse in trying to ignore the fact that their god repeatedly says that non-believers are worth no more than death or hell. They don’t like such a mean god.  Again, we see Christians having all sorts of versions of what their god “really” meant.  You might find this interesting: http://www.religioustolerance.org/salvatio.htm 
I do know what a parable is and yes it is Jesus in the parable. But the point i was trying to make is when he says to kill him with the sword in front of him he is not beings that specific, Jesus is not going to tell his angels to go get a sword and kill that person with it. He is referring to the judgment. He will then destroy (kill) all those who are unsaved. And since Jesus is omnipresent it probably will be in front of him, but he will not delight in it. Sin is such a malignant thing that he must rid the universe of it.
And Paul was saying that some people God predestines to not follow him for the purpose of him showing his mercy. For example he hardened Pharoah's heart to show all the Israelites his power and his ability to rescue them from slavery in Egypt. Also Judas Iscariot was predestined to betray Christ. There are probably only a few people who are actually predestined, most of us have a choice, as a matter of fact, in todays world I'd say that all of us have a choice now.

Nice to say that I’m a “wicked person” for not believing in your imaginary bogeyman. :D  Nope, not at all.  Your god doesn’t exist so it’s just your opinion that someone who doesn’t agree with you is “wicked”. Each Christian says the same thing, you don’t agree with me, wahhhh, so you’re a bad bad person. &)   And you claim not to “transgress God’s law very often”.  Of course, it’s your decision on what you think God’s law actually is.  I’m fairly sure you don’t follow the commandments in Exodus and Leviticus.  I’m sure you don’t follow JC’s command that to get into heaven, you should give up all of your things and follow him as a preacher.   

I’m sorry you can’t control yourself.  I can with no problem (no murders, no kicking puppies, no gorging on candy, etc) and don’t need some magical stick and carrot to tell me what to do.  Your god supposedly said that in him all things are possible, so why can’t it help you?  I’m guessing you claim “free will”, but that fails when one considers that your god supposedly has interfered repeatedly in human history and if one believes the claims of miracles bandied about nowadays, he still is.  I’m wondering, who do you think make such “weak humans”?  Who decided to supposedly leave ignorant humans in a garden and not notice this “snake” that if it were omniscient, would know what would happen with the “snake”?   Then make it necessary, to clean up its own mess, to kill itself for itself in a bloody murder to give you an excuse why you don’t have to even try to obey its laws. Quite a “god” you have there.

It's not my opinion that your wicked, its God's. And your not a bad person because you don't agree with ME you are a bad person (according to the Scriptures) because you don't believe in God. And again it is not MY decision as to what God's law is, his law is specifically stated in Exodus 20. The Ten Commandments are the laws I follow as well as Jesus' teachings which were in perfect harmony with the Ten Commandments. And Jesus does not say that sell all our possessions and follow him. You take that out of context. When he said that to the rich young man he was offering him the chance to become on of his disciples. It is not a requirement that we sell all our possessions. We should not however have excessive possessions. But all that we need. And I find it interesting that you can tell if i keep the commandments or not considering you apparently don't even know me. How could you make such a statement? Oh and you say you can control yourself then tell me have do you obey the Ten Commandments? Because if you can't then you cannot control yourself. And Jesus' death is NOT an excuse not to obey the laws, he died to prove that the laws are perfect and cannot be transgressed without bloodshed. The laws are still in effect and perfect. And its not like he didn't know about the snake in the garden, God knew that the devil was tempting them, and it was a simple test of obedience. Just like when you tell your children, no dont do this, a test of obedience to see if they obey. Only here they are adults and should know better whereas children are expected to make mistakes. And you say quite a God you have there. Well my God love me more than anyone on the face of the earth because he essentially jumped in front of a bullet for me. And for that I thank him and serve him.

Online wright

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1801
  • Darwins +77/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • "Sleep like a log, snore like a chainsaw."
Re: Why all the debate?
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2012, 01:01:17 AM »
jakec47, please use line breaks in your posts.

Like this.

Enormous walls of text are not conducive to making your point. Or even getting us to read all the way through them.

It's not my opinion that your wicked, its God's.

You've yet to show your god exists. Therefore it's opinion is irrelevant.


Quote
And its not like he didn't know about the snake in the garden, God knew that the devil was tempting them, and it was a simple test of obedience. Just like when you tell your children, no dont do this, a test of obedience to see if they obey. Only here they are adults and should know better whereas children are expected to make mistakes.

The god in your myth not only knew the snake was there, he made it and put it there, as per Genesis 3:1 and Isaiah 45:7. And no "test" was involved if your god knew what was going to happen beforehand.

Quote
And you say quite a God you have there. Well my God love me more than anyone on the face of the earth because he essentially jumped in front of a bullet for me. And for that I thank him and serve him.

Your wanting unconditional love is understandable, as is your desire for absolute answers and your fear of death; I was a Christian for 15 years and remember quite well how my faith served to answer those things. For a time.

But in the end, I realized there was no more evidence for the god I imagined than there was for Modesty Blaise, Stuart Little or Obi Wan Kenobi. And in fact, those three fictional characters are more consistently moral than the god of the Christian Bible.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
--Marcus Aurelius

Offline kcrady

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1276
  • Darwins +388/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Your Friendly Neighborhood Cephalopod Overlord
    • My blog
Re: Why all the debate?
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2012, 05:25:43 AM »
So why do we have this forum here for talking about how God is not real. I know how we can find out for sure. Once we die we will know. Its as simply as that.

Do you realize what a startling admission you've just made here?  You have just confessed that you anticipate that reality will behave exactly the way it would if your god did not exist.  There is nothing in reality to suggest that any god like the one you choose to believe in exists.  If it were otherwise, you would be able to offer evidence for the validity of your beliefs.  You have conceded the entire discoverable Cosmos to us, indeed, everything that can ever be discovered, in principle.  All of that will be consistent with the anticipated consequences of atheism, and will behave exactly as we would expect it to, exactly as it would if your god were a figment of your imagination. 

It is only when we die, when "we" are somehow transported into some other reality, that we will be surprised by the existence of your god, or so you say.  Of course this claim is entirely arbitrary, with no possible evidence in its favor.  If it were otherwise, you would have evidence, and thus no need for the claim at all.  Since your claim has no possible connection to reality, even in principle, for all practical intents and purposes it is as if you've said nothing at all.  It is a completely silly and pointless utterance, like claiming that after death we'll all be turned into unicorns and go live on the Big Rock Candy Mountain.

Furthermore, there is a considerable amount of actual evidence that bears on the question on what (if anything) happens to us when we die.  Consider a person with Alzheimer's disease, or a stroke victim.  Such brain damage literally damages the self, as such people can forget their names, forget their loved ones and their own lives.  If partial brain damage does this, it is no great leap to understand what 100% brain damage (death) does.  Here's a quick experiment for you: tie on a blindfold and adjust it properly so that no light gets through.  Do you notice that you can't see anything?  How would this be possible if you possessed a "spirit" or "soul" with its own faculty of sight?  Why would blocking off your material eyes eliminate your sight?  Your consciousness is inextricably tied to and mediated by, your body and brain.  This is self-evident. 

But, even if your god were able, somehow, to reconstitute a disembodied consciousness containing my memories and personality, it would be a copy that, being an entity of an entirely different nature than me, would quickly diverge from anything recognizable as "me."  If I own a wooden sailing ship, burn it down, and build a steel battleship in its place, the steel vessel is not the same ship, even if it is given the same name.  Likewise, if my body dies and is replaced by some sort of intangible something in some alternate reality, the new creature is not me.  So, the worst you can threaten us with is a wholly arbitrary claim that if we don't believe what you tell us to, in some other reality your god will torture a copy of us.  The degree of ridiculousness of this is matched only by the degree of vicious injustice it attributes to your god.

So why do we waste our time trying to disprove God,

We have no need to waste a second disproving entirely made-up and arbitrary, evidence-free claims such as yours.  As Christopher Hitchins put it, "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."  We only bother to debunk when Christians attempt to make a case for their god existing in reality.  Since you have agreed that your god us functionally non-existent in this reality, and have no evidence to offer for any other reality where your god might live, we're done.
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

--Greta Christina

Offline Samuelxcs

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 669
  • Darwins +6/-18
  • Gender: Male
  • The oldest and strongest emotion of humans is fear
    • Fallen Angels
Re: Why all the debate?
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2012, 05:32:09 AM »

I can't speak for all of us, though I, myself, am not concerned with whatever gods or fabled creatures anybody wants to believe in insofar as that goes unto itself.    Believe in space hamsters and unicorns and faeries for all I care; believe in gods and spirits and ghosts and UFO's and bigfoot and the loch ness monster if it pleases you to do so.

Just keep your personal beliefs on invisible magic things the fuck away from the political platforms that shape laws and create administrative policies that have very real effects on billions of people.

You want to believe in leperechauns, that's just ducky; have fun with it.    Let's have wonderful discussions about what you think about leperechauns.

You want to regulate who gets medical coverage based on what you and other Leperechaunites think the Leperechaun King dictates as being right and good?   Fuck you, go die in a fire, eat shit, rot in a ditch, go drown in a sewer, get bent, eat a dick, get the fuck off my lawn, get the fuck out of my country and, while you're at it, stuff that bullshit Holy Leperechanite book so far up your ass that if I punch you in the nose I'll turn a page.

You want to believe in some god/s/ess?    Awesome.   I'd love to sit and have tea with you and have lovely discussions about why you think this and why you think that and why you believe what you believe.    It could be a glorious exploration of human interests.


You want the legal authority, based on what you suppose your godly god-thing dictates as based on the iron age equivalent of the Weekly World News, to criminalize people based on sexual preferences between mutually consenting adults, create laws preventing them from benefiting from the legal aspects of marriage status AS WELL AS determine that it's not merely ethically tolerable but ideal to psychologically and emotionally abuse, ostracize, condemn and alienate people for these selfsame reasons?

How about 'Go fuck yourself' with a side order of 'Take a piss on a powerline'.


You want to believe that there's this cosmic morality that you must adhere to?    Ok, so long as you're not hurting anybody else, practice whatever ritualized or elaborately complicated beliefs you like.    I'd be rather interested in learning why you think and determine such things as you do.


You want to radically alter the education system to exclude known venues of fact-oriented sciences in favor of teaching only that which supports the premise of your idea of a moral system and mandate obligatory conformity to its precepts and implied obligations?

May you be the first recipient of cancer treatment as researched by rigorous prayer sessions.

'Nuff said.

I only believe in the truth, why do you think I believe in things like gods? I am not a theist. You are clearly blind to true goodness. Goodness does not come from god, I am good because it is better than being evil. There is a difference to those too. You are just a senseless human that has no good meaning to exist. You say things that make no sense and you think I understand them. I do not believe in leprechauns, fairies, Bigfoot or whatever you make up. The truth is all I believe in because it is real, for it would not be truth if it was fiction.
"The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naïve forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget."
-Thomas Szasz

Offline Jake

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 210
  • Darwins +9/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • I see what you do there.
    • Pat Condel's Godless Comedy
Re: Why all the debate?
« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2012, 06:17:35 AM »

I can't speak for all of us, though I, myself, am not concerned with whatever gods or fabled creatures anybody wants to believe in insofar as that goes unto itself.    Believe in space hamsters and unicorns and faeries for all I care; believe in gods and spirits and ghosts and UFO's and bigfoot and the loch ness monster if it pleases you to do so.

Just keep your personal beliefs on invisible magic things the fuck away from the political platforms that shape laws and create administrative policies that have very real effects on billions of people.

You want to believe in leperechauns, that's just ducky; have fun with it.    Let's have wonderful discussions about what you think about leperechauns.

You want to regulate who gets medical coverage based on what you and other Leperechaunites think the Leperechaun King dictates as being right and good?   Fuck you, go die in a fire, eat shit, rot in a ditch, go drown in a sewer, get bent, eat a dick, get the fuck off my lawn, get the fuck out of my country and, while you're at it, stuff that bullshit Holy Leperechanite book so far up your ass that if I punch you in the nose I'll turn a page.

You want to believe in some god/s/ess?    Awesome.   I'd love to sit and have tea with you and have lovely discussions about why you think this and why you think that and why you believe what you believe.    It could be a glorious exploration of human interests.


You want the legal authority, based on what you suppose your godly god-thing dictates as based on the iron age equivalent of the Weekly World News, to criminalize people based on sexual preferences between mutually consenting adults, create laws preventing them from benefiting from the legal aspects of marriage status AS WELL AS determine that it's not merely ethically tolerable but ideal to psychologically and emotionally abuse, ostracize, condemn and alienate people for these selfsame reasons?

How about 'Go fuck yourself' with a side order of 'Take a piss on a powerline'.


You want to believe that there's this cosmic morality that you must adhere to?    Ok, so long as you're not hurting anybody else, practice whatever ritualized or elaborately complicated beliefs you like.    I'd be rather interested in learning why you think and determine such things as you do.


You want to radically alter the education system to exclude known venues of fact-oriented sciences in favor of teaching only that which supports the premise of your idea of a moral system and mandate obligatory conformity to its precepts and implied obligations?

May you be the first recipient of cancer treatment as researched by rigorous prayer sessions.

'Nuff said.

I only believe in the truth, why do you think I believe in things like gods? I am not a theist. You are clearly blind to true goodness. Goodness does not come from god, I am good because it is better than being evil. There is a difference to those too. You are just a senseless human that has no good meaning to exist. You say things that make no sense and you think I understand them. I do not believe in leprechauns, fairies, Bigfoot or whatever you make up. The truth is all I believe in because it is real, for it would not be truth if it was fiction.

Professing to know what 'true goodness' is then, are you?    Or, for that matter, evil?         

You say I'm just a senseless human; what, then, are you?    As it seems that english isn't your first language, I'll cut you some slack here; I think you misinterpreted the nature of my post.

I wasn't saying that you believe in leperechauns and bigfoot or any of those things; they were used as examples of fictions and myths plenty of people like to believe in. 

My use of those things as examples was not aimed at you specifically, but rather as an establishment of how I feel on the distinction between believing in those sorts of things (including any religion's claims of deity) and trying to enforce the dreamed-up obligations of those beliefs on other people.

As for you though...I'd be very interested in what you think 'good' and 'evil' are, and just what you think 'truth' is.         
"I don't respect your religious beliefs and I don't care if this offends you." - Pat Condel and myself along with him.   I do respect intelligence, rationality and logical consideration, however.    Humor's always good too.

Offline Samuelxcs

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 669
  • Darwins +6/-18
  • Gender: Male
  • The oldest and strongest emotion of humans is fear
    • Fallen Angels
Re: Why all the debate?
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2012, 07:09:13 AM »
Read the bold:


Professing to know what 'true goodness' is then, are you?    Or, for that matter, evil? Yes I know what true goodness and true evil is too.         


You say I'm just a senseless human; what, then, are you? If you are a senseless human, it does not mean I am too, we are not the same. You are a human that makes no sense, you say things like 'swear' words. That is what makes you a senseless human. As it seems that english isn't your first language, I'll cut you some slack here; I think you misinterpreted the nature of my post. All I thought about your post was that it didn't make any sense with those bad words in them and that no good person would say things like that.

I wasn't saying that you believe in leperechauns and bigfoot or any of those things; they were used as examples of fictions and myths plenty of people like to believe in. I am not one of those who would even like to believe in them. Therefore that is not relevant to my first post on this topic. 

My use of those things as examples was not aimed at you specifically, but rather as an establishment of how I feel on the distinction between believing in those sorts of things (including any religion's claims of deity) and trying to enforce the dreamed-up obligations of those beliefs on other people.

I am not a theist, I worship no god and I already know that religions try to make fake obligations of those beliefs on other people, even if I were a theist, I would not force any kind of beliefs on anyone, I let people believe what they want.

As for you though...I'd be very interested in what you think 'good' and 'evil' are, and just what you think 'truth' is. Good is helping those who need it, not doing anything bad like murder or being stupid. Evil is making other things suffer as much as they can, manipulating someone into doing what that evil thing wants, being 'anti-social' and all the other bad things that exist, unfortunately. Truth is what is real, the opposite of lies - not real. It is the only thing humans should believe in, no one knows the truth of why they even exist but they make stories about the possibilities of how everything was created.
"The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naïve forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget."
-Thomas Szasz

Offline Jake

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 210
  • Darwins +9/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • I see what you do there.
    • Pat Condel's Godless Comedy
Re: Why all the debate?
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2012, 07:42:00 AM »
Quote from: Jake
Professing to know what 'true goodness' is then, are you?    Or, for that matter, evil?


Yes I know what true goodness and true evil is too.         

You might think you do, but what weight does that carry?    Are you confusing what you think and believe for objective fact?     


Quote from: Jake
You say I'm just a senseless human; what, then, are you?
 

If you are a senseless human, it does not mean I am too, we are not the same. You are a human that makes no sense, you say things like 'swear' words. That is what makes you a senseless human.

Quote from: Jake
As it seems that english isn't your first language, I'll cut you some slack here; I think you misinterpreted the nature of my post.

 
All I thought about your post was that it didn't make any sense with those bad words in them and that no good person would say things like that.



In my belief, those 'swear words' are merely strongly emphatic words that happen to exist for the purpose of being strongly expletive in the language I happen to be speaking.     

Interesting that you assume yourself to a higher value of position based on the very, very little you actually know about me though.       Dangerous business, taking a brief and tremendously uninformed assumption and treating it as an absolute fact.     Dangerous business indeed.



Quote from: Jake
I wasn't saying that you believe in leperechauns and bigfoot or any of those things; they were used as examples of fictions and myths plenty of people like to believe in.
 
I am not one of those who would even like to believe in them. Therefore that is not relevant to my first post on this topic.

It was, however, germane to my expression upon the particular referenced.   
 

Quote from: Jake
My use of those things as examples was not aimed at you specifically, but rather as an establishment of how I feel on the distinction between believing in those sorts of things (including any religion's claims of deity) and trying to enforce the dreamed-up obligations of those beliefs on other people.

I am not a theist, I worship no god and I already know that religions try to make fake obligations of those beliefs on other people, even if I were a theist, I would not force any kind of beliefs on anyone, I let people believe what they want.

And yet you suppose that you know what 'true goodness' and 'true evil' are to sufficient degree to determine that you are more than/better than the senseless human you assert me to be?

Doesn't matter what lampshade you pull over the intellectual foible of that, you still think you're fit to determine me lesser based on what you think you know about things you absolutely cannot, as a human, know. 

And so it remains the same deplorable shade of foible, whether you attribute it to god/s/ess' or your own apparent conceit nonwithstanding.


Quote from: Jake
As for you though...I'd be very interested in what you think 'good' and 'evil' are, and just what you think 'truth' is.
 
Good is helping those who need it, not doing anything bad like murder or being stupid. Evil is making other things suffer as much as they can, manipulating someone into doing what that evil thing wants, being 'anti-social' and all the other bad things that exist, unfortunately. Truth is what is real, the opposite of lies - not real. It is the only thing humans should believe in, no one knows the truth of why they even exist but they make stories about the possibilities of how everything was created.

So, 'good' and 'evil' are, per your implication, strictly relative to the means and motives of peoples' interactions with eachother?     Are you very certain of this?

And truth, per your implication, is what is real; are you very certain that you know what is real from what is not in all the cases you might think you do, feel you do and assume you must?

Ponder those questions before you reply.       


EDIT IN ADDENDUM:   And for the love of all, don't quote like that again.    Cleaning up your mess of answering in the quotation is a hassle.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 08:01:35 AM by Jake »
"I don't respect your religious beliefs and I don't care if this offends you." - Pat Condel and myself along with him.   I do respect intelligence, rationality and logical consideration, however.    Humor's always good too.

Offline Samuelxcs

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 669
  • Darwins +6/-18
  • Gender: Male
  • The oldest and strongest emotion of humans is fear
    • Fallen Angels
Re: Why all the debate?
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2012, 07:48:41 AM »

So, 'good' and 'evil' are, per your implication, strictly relative to the means and motives of peoples' interactions with eachother?     Are you very certain of this?

And truth, per your implication, is what is real; are you very certain that you know what is real from what is not in all the cases you might think you do, feel you do and assume you must?

Ponder those questions before you reply.       

I did not imply that it was strictly relative to the means and motives of people's interactions with each other, there are other ways of good and evil. Truth is what is real. My feelings and thoughts are the truth for the truth is what I feel and believe. I do not think lies and things that are just untrue. There is no good reason to lie.
"The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naïve forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget."
-Thomas Szasz

Offline Jake

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 210
  • Darwins +9/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • I see what you do there.
    • Pat Condel's Godless Comedy
Re: Why all the debate?
« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2012, 07:54:09 AM »

So, 'good' and 'evil' are, per your implication, strictly relative to the means and motives of peoples' interactions with eachother?     Are you very certain of this?

And truth, per your implication, is what is real; are you very certain that you know what is real from what is not in all the cases you might think you do, feel you do and assume you must?

Ponder those questions before you reply.       

I did not imply that it was strictly relative to the means and motives of people's interactions with each other, there are other ways of good and evil. Truth is what is real. My feelings and thoughts are the truth for the truth is what I feel and believe. I do not think lies and things that are just untrue. There is no good reason to lie.


Then clarify on your implication; everything you exemplified was centric to the means and motives of peoples' interactions with eachother.      What do you think these other 'ways of good and evil' are, and why?

Your feelings and thoughts are -the- truth?   THE  Truth?      The truth that applies to all things in all ways at all times beyond capacity for refute or question?     

They might be your personal truths; the knowledge objects and frames of perspective and the cognitive/emotional rationalizations you've constructed or accepted as that define your perception of truth; but THE truth?     Is that what you're implying?

And are you very certain that you think only true things?    Are you perhaps implying that you thinking something and it being true are mutually causative, or even necessarily corrolary?

Clarify.
"I don't respect your religious beliefs and I don't care if this offends you." - Pat Condel and myself along with him.   I do respect intelligence, rationality and logical consideration, however.    Humor's always good too.

Offline Samuelxcs

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 669
  • Darwins +6/-18
  • Gender: Male
  • The oldest and strongest emotion of humans is fear
    • Fallen Angels
Re: Why all the debate?
« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2012, 08:04:36 AM »

Then clarify on your implication; everything you exemplified was centric to the means and motives of peoples' interactions with eachother.      What do you think these other 'ways of good and evil' are, and why?

Your feelings and thoughts are -the- truth?   THE  Truth?      The truth that applies to all things in all ways at all times beyond capacity for refute or question?     

They might be your personal truths; the knowledge objects and frames of perspective and the cognitive/emotional rationalizations you've constructed or accepted as that define your perception of truth; but THE truth?     Is that what you're implying?

And are you very certain that you think only true things?    Are you perhaps implying that you thinking something and it being true are mutually causative, or even necessarily corrolary?

Clarify.

The other ways than people's interactions with each other are the actions of things that affect other things, such as a tree being chopped down just because it was blocking a view, that would be evil. Another way of good would be like helping the world in things such as reducing pollution and stuff.

My thoughts and feelings of what I know are the truth, of course, being a human, I do not know everything, but if I knew everything somehow, I would still believe the truth and only that. I am very certain that I think only true things, I do not like thinking things that are not true. I do not need to think untrue things therefore I do not think them.

If this does not clarify things for you I may not be able to make it more clear, these words should be perfectly understandable.

By the way, quoting what is typed in the past is not always relevant. There is no need for quoting the things that have already been quoted multiple times.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 08:08:40 AM by Samuelxcs »
"The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naïve forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget."
-Thomas Szasz

Offline Jake

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 210
  • Darwins +9/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • I see what you do there.
    • Pat Condel's Godless Comedy
Re: Why all the debate?
« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2012, 08:25:27 AM »

The other ways than people's interactions with each other are the actions of things that affect other things, such as a tree being chopped down just because it was blocking a view, that would be evil. Another way of good would be like helping the world in things such as reducing pollution and stuff.

Chopping a tree down because it was blocking a view is evil, then?    Why?   

Not many sane or reasonable people would argue that minimizing pollution would be very good for life as we know it to go on living prosperously, but what exactly qualifies that as 'good'?    And what does 'and stuff' entail?

Yes, I'm going to make you think about this beyond the gross simplifications you're resorting to.     I'll tell you right now as a friendly gesture that I don't disagree with the broad thrust of what you're saying; it's your method of reasoning I'm going to keep swinging my axe at here, not the general gist of what you're thinking, just to be clear on that.

You chose to take offense at my plainly honest expression of feeling on the distinctions I make between what people believe and what they do about it.      It's understandable; you might've thought that because I quoted you and bolded a particular remark of yours that everything I said was aimed at you specifically.

Honest mistake.    However; HOWEVER; you didn't ask for clarification -- you simply assumed and ran with that assumption.     And now you'd do well to consider this a free lesson in refining your processes of reasoning 'cause I don't give a rotten egg if you're a theist, an atheist, a pantheist, a polytheist, a xenotheist or a mutant cyborg/duck/snake hybrid;  you've got some bad, intellectually dishonest and painfully simplistic reasoning skills going on there.

And that just don't jive.    Also, you even went so far as to smite me for it for your mistaken assumption.   

Where I'm from, that kind of throw-down is only resolvable by three rounds of Mike Tyson's Punch-Out.     I'll settle for helping you improve your reasoning skills by challenging them however.

My thoughts and feelings of what I know are the truth, of course, being a human, I do not know everything, but if I knew everything somehow, I would still believe the truth and only that. I am very certain that I think only true things, I do not like thinking things that are not true. I do not need to think untrue things therefore I do not think them.

If this does not clarify things for you I may not be able to make it more clear, these words should be perfectly understandable.

Your thoughts and feelings are -what you THINK- are the truth.   However, you're right; you don't know everything.    Ergo, because you don't know everything, you cannot, if you're being intellectually honest, present yourself as able to claim that you know what good and evil are beyond what you think and feel they are.

You can't even know if they are or not; only if you think and/or feel that something is good or evil.    You could well be wrong; you could, in fact, be so thoroughly wrong as to be presuming a position of relevance where, from a more informed position, it might be clear that you have none.       How to know?

It's well and good that you would aspire to base your thinking on true things, but riddle me this;  exactly what do you know that is true; that is factually and absolutely true as contrasted to things you only think are true, or feel are true, or think and feel SHOULD be true?

Your floor.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 08:27:43 AM by Jake »
"I don't respect your religious beliefs and I don't care if this offends you." - Pat Condel and myself along with him.   I do respect intelligence, rationality and logical consideration, however.    Humor's always good too.

Offline jakec47

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 108
  • Darwins +4/-13
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Why all the debate?
« Reply #46 on: March 08, 2012, 07:58:07 PM »
But, even if your god were able, somehow, to reconstitute a disembodied consciousness containing my memories and personality, it would be a copy that, being an entity of an entirely different nature than me, would quickly diverge from anything recognizable as "me."  If I own a wooden sailing ship, burn it down, and build a steel battleship in its place, the steel vessel is not the same ship, even if it is given the same name.  Likewise, if my body dies and is replaced by some sort of intangible something in some alternate reality, the new creature is not me.  So, the worst you can threaten us with is a wholly arbitrary claim that if we don't believe what you tell us to, in some other reality your god will torture a copy of us.  The degree of ridiculousness of this is matched only by the degree of vicious injustice it attributes to your god.

Well that is exactly as you claim. We don't have a 'spirit' that has a consciousness in death and that is not what the Bible teaches either. Many Christian's believe that we have a soul that goes to either Heaven or Hell upon death. That is not Biblical. They misinterpret the Bible. When we die we cease all function and consciousness. The Bible says, "The dead know nothing" and "When I die, the grave is my house." Along with many other verses that support this.

Now once we die what happens next? There is a day appointed that no one but God knows and it is in the future, it is called the Day of Judgment and on this day the dead will be raised, "Some unto everlasting life, and some unto everlasting damnation." Heaven or Hell.

God will not torture people in Hell forever. The wicked will be annihilated, destroyed, they will perish. The wages of sin is death, and they will completely burn up, they will be a stubble. They do not burn forever and it is not their souls that burn it is them, their physical bodies. There is no such thing as an immortal soul. All souls are mortal, the ones in Hell will die and the ones in Heaven will only live because they will be able to eat from the tree of life.

Just as a judge in the courtrooms of today will impose the punishment on a criminal to 'fit his crime' so will God. Some will be destoyed instantly, Hitler will probably have a more severe punishment and the Devil will have the most severe. God is just, he would never make them burn forever, that would be unjust and he would be worse than Hitler himself.

Offline JeffPT

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2024
  • Darwins +203/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm a lead farmer mutha fucka
Re: Why all the debate?
« Reply #47 on: March 08, 2012, 09:56:53 PM »
Now once we die what happens next? There is a day appointed that no one but God knows and it is in the future, it is called the Day of Judgment and on this day the dead will be raised, "Some unto everlasting life, and some unto everlasting damnation." Heaven or Hell.

Do you have any evidence, other than a really old book that someone told you was the truth, that this really happens?  Because I would like to hear your evidence.  If you have none, then will you admit that the only thing you have to go on is a very old book? 

You sound like you really believe this is true.  Why?  Do you normally believe every non-evidence based claim you read?   

God will not torture people in Hell forever. The wicked will be annihilated, destroyed, they will perish. The wages of sin is death, and they will completely burn up, they will be a stubble. They do not burn forever and it is not their souls that burn it is them, their physical bodies. There is no such thing as an immortal soul. All souls are mortal, the ones in Hell will die and the ones in Heaven will only live because they will be able to eat from the tree of life.

Again, I have to ask you for any sort of proof for this.  Otherwise it is one possible guess in an infinite number of possible guesses, don't you think?

Just as a judge in the courtrooms of today will impose the punishment on a criminal to 'fit his crime' so will God. Some will be destoyed instantly, Hitler will probably have a more severe punishment and the Devil will have the most severe. God is just, he would never make them burn forever, that would be unjust and he would be worse than Hitler himself.

You say Hitler should be punished by God more severely than others, but I have to ask you why?  From a human standpoint, he sure seems like a giant ass hole, but did God not allow Hitler the free reign to do his worst with the 6 million Jews he had killed?  Could God not have stopped Hitler from doing what he did?  There were many unsuccessful assassination attempts against Hitler during his reign... you mean to tell me God couldn't have helped even a tiny bit?  Maybe moved a bomb an inch or so closer?  If, as you say, He has the power to raise every single person up from the dead, doesn't he have the power to snuff out the life of a single, mortal man?  If God stood by and did nothing, all the while with the power to stop it at no risk to himself, does that not mean He chose to let it happen?  Doesn't that make God, at the very least, just as bad as Hitler? 

You say that God is just, but if you look at our world, I see no evidence for this being true.  What we have is a world loaded with justice and injustice alike; and when humans seek justice, it has to come from ourselves or from other humans.  That is evidence that neither a just or unjust all powerful being exists.

You cannot expect thinking people to accept the notion that justice will take place in the future or after we die without any sort of evidence to back it up.  I'm sorry, but you just can't.  There is no reason to think that.  None. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6519
  • Darwins +851/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Why all the debate?
« Reply #48 on: March 08, 2012, 10:45:10 PM »
Hello jakec47;

I appreciate you being willing to answer our questions and explain your views. I was a Jehovah's Witness and some of the things you say are the same as what I was taught. Why is it that almost every Christian we interact with has a different interpretation of what god wants, what death means, who goes go to heaven or hell, how to be saved, etc. If they are all worshipping the same god and god is unchanging, why all the different views? Why doesn't god set everyone straight so we all know the truth?

You say that unbelievers are wicked and will perish in some horrible, but not too horrible way. Suppose we just can't make ourselves believe in stuff that just does not make any sense to us.[1] Should we go to some church and pretend to believe, or should we just try to live a good, honest life? Those appear to be the only options for an atheist: lie and become a fake Christian or tell the truth and remain an ethical unbeliever.

And if a person is raised in a Christian faith that teaches something different from what you say here, are they as doomed as we atheists are?





 1. Can you make yourself believe in Hinduism? I assume Hinduism with its many animal gods makes no more sense to you than it does to me.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Samothec

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 585
  • Darwins +49/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why all the debate?
« Reply #49 on: March 08, 2012, 11:17:24 PM »
... And its not like he didn't know about the snake in the garden, God knew that the devil was tempting them, and it was a simple test of obedience. Just like when you tell your children, no dont do this, a test of obedience to see if they obey. Only here they are adults and should know better whereas children are expected to make mistakes. ...
Bold mine

Not true. Adam & Eve might have had adult forms but they had no way of knowing better since they had not eaten from the Tree yet. They were as innocent as young children - picture 5-year-olds. No one intelligent curses a 5-year-old for all time and all their decendants. The innocent - like children and Adam & Eve - are expected to make mistakes. God wanted them to eat from the Tree. He planned it. There is no genuine "original sin" - it was all a set-up.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline Samothec

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 585
  • Darwins +49/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why all the debate?
« Reply #50 on: March 08, 2012, 11:52:36 PM »
But, even if your god were able, somehow, to reconstitute a disembodied consciousness containing my memories and personality, it would be a copy that, being an entity of an entirely different nature than me, would quickly diverge from anything recognizable as "me."  If I own a wooden sailing ship, burn it down, and build a steel battleship in its place, the steel vessel is not the same ship, even if it is given the same name.  Likewise, if my body dies and is replaced by some sort of intangible something in some alternate reality, the new creature is not me.  So, the worst you can threaten us with is a wholly arbitrary claim that if we don't believe what you tell us to, in some other reality your god will torture a copy of us.  The degree of ridiculousness of this is matched only by the degree of vicious injustice it attributes to your god.
Well that is exactly as you claim. We don't have a 'spirit' that has a consciousness in death and that is not what the Bible teaches either. Many Christian's believe that we have a soul that goes to either Heaven or Hell upon death. That is not Biblical. They misinterpret the Bible. When we die we cease all function and consciousness. The Bible says, "The dead know nothing" and "When I die, the grave is my house." Along with many other verses that support this.
Now once we die what happens next? There is a day appointed that no one but God knows and it is in the future, it is called the Day of Judgment and on this day the dead will be raised, "Some unto everlasting life, and some unto everlasting damnation." Heaven or Hell.
God will not torture people in Hell forever. The wicked will be annihilated, destroyed, they will perish. The wages of sin is death, and they will completely burn up, they will be a stubble. They do not burn forever and it is not their souls that burn it is them, their physical bodies. There is no such thing as an immortal soul. All souls are mortal, the ones in Hell will die and the ones in Heaven will only live because they will be able to eat from the tree of life.
Just as a judge in the courtrooms of today will impose the punishment on a criminal to 'fit his crime' so will God. Some will be destoyed instantly, Hitler will probably have a more severe punishment and the Devil will have the most severe. God is just, he would never make them burn forever, that would be unjust and he would be worse than Hitler himself.

Your response shows you did not understand kcrady's post you quoted. But this is important so I'm going to present my similar idea that has a slightly different focus:
I can prove that you as you are now won't be experiencing any afterlife. You are not the same person you were when you were 5-years-old or 15-years-old or 25-years-old etc due to simply getting older. Any major injury also changed you – how you act or react in situations similar to what caused the injury. If you experienced any abuse – whether physical, mental or sexual – those experiences changed you. Going blind or deaf causes changes in you. As would having one's sight or hearing restored. If a major injury causes you no mental trauma but leaves you paraplegic or quadriplegic, that is yet another possible alteration to you. Now mentally add up ALL those changes and you might begin to get close to the change experiencing death will make to you.

To assume that 'you' still exist after death as you are now shows that you have never really thought about death and the afterlife (assuming one exists) – you have very blindly accepted what you've been told. And to punish the different 'you' after death is a monstrous concept.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6519
  • Darwins +851/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Why all the debate?
« Reply #51 on: March 09, 2012, 12:48:48 AM »
^^^^Yeah. What or who is it that will be brought back to be judged?

Will I be judged as my 95-year-old blind, deaf, dementia-addled self who curses up a storm and whacks everyone with my cane? My snarky dysfunctional 15-year-old self who was still trying to believe in god? The person I am as I type this?

Will babies that die be brought back and judged as babies or as the people they would have grown up into--assuming god knows everything and would be able to tell what kind of person they would have been?

I am thinking of my non-religious hippie friend who had a "deathbed conversion". I think he did this as a last gift to comfort his very religious wife. He was pretty out of it when he did this and he might not even have known what he was saying. Maybe he just agreed with whatever the pastor said.

If he had not been dying, and had been in his right mind, I am pretty certain he would not have converted because he showed not a bit of interest in being religious in the ten years I knew him. He argued about it all the time with his wife. Will he be judged by how he lived his 70 years of life[1] or by his last few days of life when he converted to the Christian faith?
 1. he was an artist and musician who made little money but spent it all raising other peoples' children and helping needy kids in a poor country every summer
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline sun_king

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 388
  • Darwins +25/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • We see things not as they are, but as we are
Re: Why all the debate?
« Reply #52 on: March 09, 2012, 01:08:45 AM »
I am worried about my judgement...  Out here the folks[1] believe that the judgement will be based on what we did during the life, not on whom we accepted/believed. The Atheists wager works better here.

Anyone has any idea how it will work out? Does YHWH and Vishnu have a pact on how to divide the dead?
 1. majority of folks, read Hindus

Offline kcrady

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1276
  • Darwins +388/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Your Friendly Neighborhood Cephalopod Overlord
    • My blog
Re: Why all the debate?
« Reply #53 on: March 09, 2012, 04:30:15 AM »
But, even if your god were able, somehow, to reconstitute a disembodied consciousness containing my memories and personality, it would be a copy that, being an entity of an entirely different nature than me, would quickly diverge from anything recognizable as "me."  If I own a wooden sailing ship, burn it down, and build a steel battleship in its place, the steel vessel is not the same ship, even if it is given the same name.  Likewise, if my body dies and is replaced by some sort of intangible something in some alternate reality, the new creature is not me.  So, the worst you can threaten us with is a wholly arbitrary claim that if we don't believe what you tell us to, in some other reality your god will torture a copy of us.  The degree of ridiculousness of this is matched only by the degree of vicious injustice it attributes to your god.

Well that is exactly as you claim.

Well, OK.  Since you used the word exactly here, can I take it that you agree with the bolded part above?

We don't have a 'spirit' that has a consciousness in death and that is not what the Bible teaches either. Many Christian's believe that we have a soul that goes to either Heaven or Hell upon death. That is not Biblical. They misinterpret the Bible. When we die we cease all function and consciousness. The Bible says, "The dead know nothing" and "When I die, the grave is my house." Along with many other verses that support this.

One of the passages you cite above is from the 9th chapter of Ecclesiastes:

Quote
3 This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of people, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead. 4 Anyone who is among the living has hope—even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!

5 For the living know that they will die,
   but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
   and even their name is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate
   and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
   in anything that happens under the sun
.

--Ecclesiastes 9:3-6, NIV


I put the part you cited in blue.  Notice the parts I've bolded.  They all say, quite clearly, that there is no afterlife for anybody.  "The same destiny overtakes all," "they have no further reward."  Yet you expect [a copy of] you to have some further reward, for believing the "right" interpretation of the Bible.

Now once we die what happens next? There is a day appointed that no one but God knows and it is in the future, it is called the Day of Judgment and on this day the dead will be raised, "Some unto everlasting life, and some unto everlasting damnation." Heaven or Hell.

God will not torture people in Hell forever. The wicked will be annihilated, destroyed, they will perish. The wages of sin is death, and they will completely burn up, they will be a stubble. They do not burn forever and it is not their souls that burn it is them, their physical bodies. There is no such thing as an immortal soul. All souls are mortal, the ones in Hell will die and the ones in Heaven will only live because they will be able to eat from the tree of life.

So, if I don't believe what you tell me to, Yahweh will create a copy of me someday, and then destroy it?  Doesn't that seem like a silly thing to do?  Also, people in "Heaven" are still mortal people made of meat?  So, if one of them gets run over by a flaming chariot on their way for their next dose of Tree of Life, they can die?

If there is no such thing as an immortal soul, does that include Yahweh also?  Is he made of meat?  There are plenty of Bible passages that say he has hands, a face, "back parts," etc., and he did apparently get in a wrestling match with Jacob and lose (so that he had to use magic to dislocate Jacob's hip, and still Jacob managed to extort a "blessing" from him), and we're supposedly "made in his image" (at least the boy humans).  So is he also bereft of an immortal soul/spirit?
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

--Greta Christina

Offline Karl

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 393
  • Darwins +3/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Why all the debate?
« Reply #54 on: March 09, 2012, 05:00:31 AM »
^^^^Yeah. What or who is it that will be brought back to be judged?

Will I be judged ...?
No, you will not be judged after your death. If you're in for a fancy judgement you'll have to do something whilst you're alive. Depending on the decision what it is you decide to do, it might bring you over to the other side a little sooner. Judgement comes first depending on your activities, then death and after that nothing at all.

Offline Samuelxcs

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 669
  • Darwins +6/-18
  • Gender: Male
  • The oldest and strongest emotion of humans is fear
    • Fallen Angels
Re: Why all the debate?
« Reply #55 on: March 09, 2012, 05:36:13 AM »

The other ways than people's interactions with each other are the actions of things that affect other things, such as a tree being chopped down just because it was blocking a view, that would be evil. Another way of good would be like helping the world in things such as reducing pollution and stuff.

Chopping a tree down because it was blocking a view is evil, then?    Why?   

Not many sane or reasonable people would argue that minimizing pollution would be very good for life as we know it to go on living prosperously, but what exactly qualifies that as 'good'?    And what does 'and stuff' entail?

Yes, I'm going to make you think about this beyond the gross simplifications you're resorting to.     I'll tell you right now as a friendly gesture that I don't disagree with the broad thrust of what you're saying; it's your method of reasoning I'm going to keep swinging my axe at here, not the general gist of what you're thinking, just to be clear on that.

You chose to take offense at my plainly honest expression of feeling on the distinctions I make between what people believe and what they do about it.      It's understandable; you might've thought that because I quoted you and bolded a particular remark of yours that everything I said was aimed at you specifically.

Honest mistake.    However; HOWEVER; you didn't ask for clarification -- you simply assumed and ran with that assumption.     And now you'd do well to consider this a free lesson in refining your processes of reasoning 'cause I don't give a rotten egg if you're a theist, an atheist, a pantheist, a polytheist, a xenotheist or a mutant cyborg/duck/snake hybrid;  you've got some bad, intellectually dishonest and painfully simplistic reasoning skills going on there.

And that just don't jive.    Also, you even went so far as to smite me for it for your mistaken assumption.   

Where I'm from, that kind of throw-down is only resolvable by three rounds of Mike Tyson's Punch-Out.     I'll settle for helping you improve your reasoning skills by challenging them however.

My thoughts and feelings of what I know are the truth, of course, being a human, I do not know everything, but if I knew everything somehow, I would still believe the truth and only that. I am very certain that I think only true things, I do not like thinking things that are not true. I do not need to think untrue things therefore I do not think them.

If this does not clarify things for you I may not be able to make it more clear, these words should be perfectly understandable.

Your thoughts and feelings are -what you THINK- are the truth.   However, you're right; you don't know everything.    Ergo, because you don't know everything, you cannot, if you're being intellectually honest, present yourself as able to claim that you know what good and evil are beyond what you think and feel they are.

You can't even know if they are or not; only if you think and/or feel that something is good or evil.    You could well be wrong; you could, in fact, be so thoroughly wrong as to be presuming a position of relevance where, from a more informed position, it might be clear that you have none.       How to know?

It's well and good that you would aspire to base your thinking on true things, but riddle me this;  exactly what do you know that is true; that is factually and absolutely true as contrasted to things you only think are true, or feel are true, or think and feel SHOULD be true?

Your floor.

Chopping a tree down for something like a better view is evil because the tree is a living thing too, so someone wants the tree to die just so they can get a better view? That certainly cannot be a good thing, for the tree at least. Pollution is not always a good thing, it can harm or even kill things. If the sea is polluted with oil or whatever, it could endanger sea life. If the air is polluted with a harmful gas, anything that cannot resist could die. That is only a good thing if they want to die that way. I know that it is the method of reasoning that is why you are continuing to 'swing an axe' and not what I am thinking.

If the meanings of those words you typed were not aimed at me specifically, make it more clear that it was aimed at those types of people, not me, I am not any of those types of people and never will be. It would be better if you used better words and actually posted to others about it. Better words would be better clarification, as bad words like that are just like what people call 'slang'.

It is irrelevant if my reasoning skills are simple, what matters is if they are true and good. These skills always work on people that do not lack the understanding of words that are not even remotely like 'slang' such as swear words. If everyone were good people, they would understand perfectly my reasoning skills. I also know that you do not care if I am an atheist, mutant or anything like that, that is not important.

I always use them 'smileys' in situations like that, I am just a positive person, other people just ruin it though.

Reasoning does not always have to be attempted in fighting, there are better ways to reason with people, no matter if they think fighting is a better way to do so. Personally I hate fighting, any kind of violence should not be tolerated. If people just used good words, understood them and all knew what they were talking about, there would be no need for fighting. Just because other people are fighting, that does not justify why more people should fight.
"The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naïve forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget."
-Thomas Szasz

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: Why all the debate?
« Reply #56 on: March 09, 2012, 10:35:26 AM »
Now, I’m sure all of the points I shall bring up have already been done, but I like to personally respond to responses to me. 
Quote
I do know what a parable is and yes it is Jesus in the parable. But the point i was trying to make is when he says to kill him with the sword in front of him he is not beings that specific, Jesus is not going to tell his angels to go get a sword and kill that person with it. He is referring to the judgment. He will then destroy (kill) all those who are unsaved. And since Jesus is omnipresent it probably will be in front of him, but he will not delight in it. Sin is such a malignant thing that he must rid the universe of it.
And Paul was saying that some people God predestines to not follow him for the purpose of him showing his mercy. For example he hardened Pharoah's heart to show all the Israelites his power and his ability to rescue them from slavery in Egypt. Also Judas Iscariot was predestined to betray Christ. There are probably only a few people who are actually predestined, most of us have a choice, as a matter of fact, in todays world I'd say that all of us have a choice now.
  So you decide that you can ignore what the parable says.  ;D Typical Christian, deciding what your god will and won’t do.  So much for your claims of not making up things about your god.  and JC isn’t talking to angels, he’s talking to humans. No angels mentioned.  The parable of the 10 bags of gold might be read as you are trying to make it, but not the Luke version. 

I love how you find it perfectly fine that your god damns people to “show its mercy”.  Hiliarous!  Your god, if one is to believe your bible, murdered many many Egyptians who had no choice since your god was controlling its pharaoh.  How “fair”! How “just”!  :o No, he couldn’t’ have just teleported the Israelites out (not that any of this is shown to have actually happened); he had to kill people.  And poor Judas, he was fucked by your god with no choice in the matter.  It’s so cute to see people like you, oh so sure that they have the right answer to this vicious god but being all piously content in reading about such injustice.  As long as you think you get your magic prize, you don’t give a damn.
Quote
It's not my opinion that your wicked, its God's. And your not a bad person because you don't agree with ME you are a bad person (according to the Scriptures) because you don't believe in God.
  Well, Jake, perhaps I can’t believe in your god because it doesn’t let me.  Is that fair?  Are you happy with a god that picks and chooses who it will damn?  Do you think it’s god’s right to murder whomever he wants, when intentionally making them unable to believe?  If you are parent, would you kill a child for getting something wrong that you didn’t allow it to know?  If so, that’s sad. 
Quote
And again it is not MY decision as to what God's law is, his law is specifically stated in Exodus 20. The Ten Commandments are the laws I follow as well as Jesus' teachings which were in perfect harmony with the Ten Commandments.
  The commandments and laws don’t stop at the first ten. I suggest you actually read your bible and not repeat the lies that your pastor or priest has told you.  I do agree that JC was all for people following *all* of his supposed father’s commandments.  And I know that you don’t.  Christians can’t even figure out when the “Sabbath” supposedly is. 

Quote
And Jesus does not say that sell all our possessions and follow him. You take that out of context. When he said that to the rich young man he was offering him the chance to become on of his disciples. It is not a requirement that we sell all our possessions. We should not however have excessive possessions. But all that we need.
Unfortunately for you, I have read the bible and know that you are wrong.  The context of this set of verses supports that *all* of the followers of JC, including the disciples and including *you* are to give up all they have and trust in this god.  JC references the lilies of the field, the birds of the air in other parts and all of them make the *context* of a man who thought the end of the world was imminent.  There is nothing saying “keep what you need”.  Again you’ve made things up in order to excuse your god and keep your comforts. 
Quote
And I find it interesting that you can tell if i keep the commandments or not considering you apparently don't even know me. How could you make such a statement? Oh and you say you can control yourself then tell me have do you obey the Ten Commandments? Because if you can't then you cannot control yourself. And Jesus' death is NOT an excuse not to obey the laws, he died to prove that the laws are perfect and cannot be transgressed without bloodshed. The laws are still in effect and perfect. And its not like he didn't know about the snake in the garden, God knew that the devil was tempting them, and it was a simple test of obedience. Just like when you tell your children, no dont do this, a test of obedience to see if they obey. Only here they are adults and should know better whereas children are expected to make mistakes. And you say quite a God you have there. Well my God love me more than anyone on the face of the earth because he essentially jumped in front of a bullet for me. And for that I thank him and serve him.
  Well, Jake, you are using a computer and arguing that you don’t have to do what JC says. So, I’m quite sure that you aren’t wearing clothes that are of only one fiber, that you don’t keep slaves, that you don’t treat women as property,  that you don’t force women to marry their rapists, that you don’t kill sassy children, that you don’t murder people who work on the Sabbath, etc, all of which are laws supposedly directly from god.  God supposed dictates every single law that is in Exodus and Leviticus. 

I don’t obey the “ten commandments” because they are largely ignorant. Do they contain some basic laws that all human cultures do, including much earlier cultures?  Yep, they sure do.  I don’t murder, I don’t steal, bear false witness, etc.  But I also don’t treat women as property (women are in the list of property in the do not “covet” commandment),  I do not have to worship some vicious god like in the first, I can take the name of this god in vain since I think its imaginary and have seen no evidence to the contrary.  I happily have a good mom and dad, but I would not “honor” them if they didn’t deserve it.  I have plenty of self control and none of it depends on some primitive god that someone else has made up. 

You want to claim that your god knew that the “snake” was in the garden.  You say it was to intentionally “test” A&E.  Then like so many Christians, you’ve just made your god too stupid to know what the results would be.  I guess he’s not omniscient anymore.  And I would not test my children just to watch them fail.  What a nasty person you are if you think this is acceptable.  Your god doesn’t love you since you can’t even show it exists. but I’m sure it makes you feel really special in claiming some “all-powerful” being cares for you and only you.  Your god, if you think your bible is true, shot the bullet that you claimed it jumped in front of. Your god sounds no better than a pyromaniac that joins a fire department and then sets fires that he will have to respond to so he looks the hero.  Like I said, great god there, Jake.  I’m better than *that*.
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline jakec47

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 108
  • Darwins +4/-13
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Why all the debate?
« Reply #57 on: March 09, 2012, 11:23:02 PM »
I'm sorry guys I know your not going to like this but I'd like to reply to all of you. But I just don't have the time. Understand I am ONE guy who has to respond to all SEVEN of you. I could say more but come on let me read less. Or at least don't say the same thing someone else said. If you have a specific thing you want to say to me, send me a message. That way I don't have to write back to all this stuff. And those of you who misunderstood what I said, and repeated exactly as I already said to say I didnt say this even when I did. Stop. I already made that point don't make me go back and say it again.