Author Topic: The Jesus is God Conundrum  (Read 3907 times)

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Offline GodlessHeathen

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The Jesus is God Conundrum
« on: March 01, 2012, 11:18:53 PM »
According to the Bible, Jesus was his own father (John 17:1, 3 with John 1:1, 14). :?
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

Offline jakec47

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Re: The Jesus is God Conundrum
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2012, 12:58:55 AM »
None of those verses say Jesus was his own father.
They do say that The Word, which is Jesus, was God. And that he was with God. This is the belief that is known as the Trinity. God is one, comprised of three, God the Father, Jesus the Son, The Holy Spirit.
I understand what you mean however and the answer is that Jesus was the Father but in a different sense. There is only one God. However he is named different things based on what his operation is. God the Father was in heaven. Jesus was God in the form of man. The Holy Spirit is God in the form of a spirit that can enter those who accept him and follow his commands. It is difficult to fully understand and beyond human comprehension.

John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:14 - "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."
John 17:1 - "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you."
John 17:3 - "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you , the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

Offline GodlessHeathen

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Re: The Jesus is God Conundrum
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2012, 04:32:21 AM »
None of those verses say Jesus was his own father.
They do say that The Word, which is Jesus, was God. And that he was with God. This is the belief that is known as the Trinity. God is one, comprised of three, God the Father, Jesus the Son, The Holy Spirit.
I understand what you mean however and the answer is that Jesus was the Father but in a different sense. There is only one God. However he is named different things based on what his operation is. God the Father was in heaven. Jesus was God in the form of man. The Holy Spirit is God in the form of a spirit that can enter those who accept him and follow his commands. It is difficult to fully understand and beyond human comprehension.

John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:14 - "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."
John 17:1 - "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you."
John 17:3 - "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you , the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

They don't have to say it; logically they can only lead the reader to the conclusion that Jesus is the Father (provided one is going to invest in believing them at all).

For the sake of argument, if there is another individual besides the Father called "God", then the Father cannot be the only true God. It's simple enough even a child could understand it if people were not so "indoctrinated" into their traditional belief systems (namely "Trinity" doctrine).

If neither one of those alternatives makes sense, perhaps it is because the whole idea is ludicrous to begin with.....
« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 04:34:12 AM by GodlessHeathen »
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

Offline grant

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Re: The Jesus is God Conundrum
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2012, 05:57:58 AM »
They do say that The Word, which is Jesus, was God. And that he was with God. This is the belief that is known as the Trinity. God is one, comprised of three, God the Father, Jesus the Son, The Holy Spirit.
I understand what you mean however and the answer is that Jesus was the Father but in a different sense. There is only one God. However he is named different things based on what his operation is. God the Father was in heaven. Jesus was God in the form of man. The Holy Spirit is God in the form of a spirit that can enter those who accept him and follow his commands. It is difficult to fully understand and beyond human comprehension.

Amen to that brother. Glad you cleared it up.
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Offline Nick

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Re: The Jesus is God Conundrum
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2012, 08:18:49 AM »
It is clearly a Jerry Springer moment. ;)
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Offline velkyn

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Re: The Jesus is God Conundrum
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2012, 10:07:30 AM »
None of those verses say Jesus was his own father.
They do say that The Word, which is Jesus, was God. And that he was with God. This is the belief that is known as the Trinity. God is one, comprised of three, God the Father, Jesus the Son, The Holy Spirit.
I understand what you mean however and the answer is that Jesus was the Father but in a different sense. There is only one God. However he is named different things based on what his operation is. God the Father was in heaven. Jesus was God in the form of man. The Holy Spirit is God in the form of a spirit that can enter those who accept him and follow his commands. It is difficult to fully understand and beyond human comprehension.
  The trinity is such a lovely made up concept. 

If the word was God, then they are the same thing.  If Jesus was the word, then they are the same thing.  Thus JC is god. 
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Offline Omen

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Re: The Jesus is God Conundrum
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2012, 10:13:49 AM »
None of those verses say Jesus was his own father.
They do say that The Word, which is Jesus, was God. And that he was with God. This is the belief that is known as the Trinity. God is one, comprised of three, God the Father, Jesus the Son, The Holy Spirit.

This is one and the same.  Jesus is effectively a god, 3 does not equal 1 and 1 does not equal 3.

Which results in a god sacrificing himself to himself ( but not really sacrificing anything ) in order to fulfill a loophole in rules he himself created, to save us from a punishment he himself devised, for a consequence he himself knew would happen and could have prevented.
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Offline Babdah

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Re: The Jesus is God Conundrum
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2012, 10:16:18 AM »
Jerry springer is right, John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, John 10:30-31 I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him, or 1 Timothy 3:16 God was made manifest in the flesh, but honestly we should ask Moses he will know what god looks like.
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Offline Nick

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Re: The Jesus is God Conundrum
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2012, 10:51:48 AM »
Or the Povich show, "Jesus you are the Father"!!!???
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline Turbo SS

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Re: The Jesus is God Conundrum
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2012, 12:05:00 PM »
On religulous that guy dressed as jesus used the analogy of water.  water can be water, steam or ice but they are technically one thing.  He said the trinity was like that.  I actually thought that was a decent comparison.  *disclaimer* i don't think god exists at all though. just curious what other atheist reactions to that analogy are.

Offline Omen

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Re: The Jesus is God Conundrum
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2012, 12:26:29 PM »
On religulous that guy dressed as jesus used the analogy of water.  water can be water, steam or ice but they are technically one thing.  He said the trinity was like that.  I actually thought that was a decent comparison.  *disclaimer* i don't think god exists at all though. just curious what other atheist reactions to that analogy are.

But it never stops being water.

States of matter do not change what the matter is.
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Offline GodlessHeathen

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Re: The Jesus is God Conundrum
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2012, 12:45:42 PM »
On religulous that guy dressed as jesus used the analogy of water.  water can be water, steam or ice but they are technically one thing.  He said the trinity was like that.  I actually thought that was a decent comparison.  *disclaimer* i don't think god exists at all though. just curious what other atheist reactions to that analogy are.

It doesn't work very well, because the Christian trinity is supposed to be 3 "persons" in one "entity" (exactly what the real difference is between a "person" and an "entity" is left unexplained), all existing simultaneously. Water can exist as either gas, liquid, or solid, but cannot exist as all three at the same time.

I used to be a Oneness Pentecostal (they do not believe in the trinity but actually do believe that Jesus' deity is his own father), so I've explored practically every trinity analogy ever made. There is not a single thing in nature that can make sense of an unintelligible belief like the trinity.
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

Offline jakec47

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Re: The Jesus is God Conundrum
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2012, 01:28:05 PM »
I think that if God is real, and he made everything he must be of a higher intelligence than humans. Interesting to know we only use 10% of our brain. So the idea of the Trinity, which is supported by the Bible, must be beyond human understanding, if we could understand and explain everything God does and why he does it. It would make us smarter or better than God. What kind of God is less then the people he made?

Offline Omen

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Re: The Jesus is God Conundrum
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2012, 01:31:28 PM »
Interesting to know we only use 10% of our brain.

That's actually a myth.

Quote
So the idea of the Trinity, which is supported by the Bible, must be beyond human understanding

This is an argument from ignorance; you're supposing something you can't know as a reason to not know something else entirely.  The logic does not follow.

Quote
if we could understand and explain everything God does and why he does it. It would make us smarter or better than God. What kind of God is less then the people he made?

Non-sequitur.  Knowing how a god does something does not make that god less than, its a poorly pleaded qualification on your part.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: The Jesus is God Conundrum
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2012, 01:32:06 PM »
I think that if God is real, and he made everything he must be of a higher intelligence than humans.

Clearly not, as we can find and fix the flaws in its "design".

Interesting to know we only use 10% of our brain.

Not true. We use all 100% of our brain; just 10% at any given moment.

So the idea of the Trinity, which is supported by the Bible, must be beyond human understanding, if we could understand and explain everything God does and why he does it.

And yet here you are, claiming that it's beyond our understanding, yet somehow within our understanding.

It would make us smarter or better than God. What kind of God is less then the people he made?

So not even your god understands itself? Wow.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: The Jesus is God Conundrum
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2012, 01:34:28 PM »
I think that if God is real, and he made everything he must be of a higher intelligence than humans. Interesting to know we only use 10% of our brain. So the idea of the Trinity, which is supported by the Bible, must be beyond human understanding, if we could understand and explain everything God does and why he does it. It would make us smarter or better than God. What kind of God is less then the people he made?
considering the claims of the bible, this god is demonstrated as no more intelligent than many humans and a lot less than some.  The Bible God is less than the people that created him, important point there, since this character is limited to the humans who created it at a certain time.

many theists claim that they cannot understand god, but when convenient, they try to claim they "know" all sorts of things, like how "loving" this god is, how this god must have some "plan", etc. 
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Offline Nick

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Re: The Jesus is God Conundrum
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2012, 02:18:01 PM »
It was a way for the early church to get around the "one" god thing.  Romans were use to the multi-god concept.  Later they increased it with Mary and saints who you could pray to for goodies.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline jakec47

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Re: The Jesus is God Conundrum
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2012, 02:32:22 PM »
Well I'll tell you one thing, if I could understand everything God was doing and his plans and I was smarter than him. I wouldn't believe in him, if he is God he should be smarter than humans, if not, what is he?

Offline Whateverman

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Re: The Jesus is God Conundrum
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2012, 02:34:10 PM »
Water can exist as either gas, liquid, or solid, but cannot exist as all three at the same time.
Sorry, but the science geek in me is clamoring for release:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_point



PS. this says nothing at all on my position IRT the trinity, which is that the concept is totally bogus
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: The Jesus is God Conundrum
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2012, 02:42:54 PM »
Actually water has many triple-points at various low-T, high-P conditions.  What are there now, 20 or so different phases of "ice"?
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Offline velkyn

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Re: The Jesus is God Conundrum
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2012, 03:00:05 PM »
Well I'll tell you one thing, if I could understand everything God was doing and his plans and I was smarter than him. I wouldn't believe in him, if he is God he should be smarter than humans, if not, what is he?

a fictional character.
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Offline Historicity

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Re: The Jesus is God Conundrum
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2012, 03:32:12 PM »
According to the Bible, Jesus was his own father (John 17:1, 3 with John 1:1, 14). :?
According to the Apostles' Creed is not the Son of the Father but the Son of the Holy Ghost.

According to the Nicene Creed He was the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father.

According to the Athanasian Creed He is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

Offline GodlessHeathen

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Re: The Jesus is God Conundrum
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2012, 03:59:31 PM »
According to the Bible, Jesus was his own father (John 17:1, 3 with John 1:1, 14). :?
According to the Apostles' Creed is not the Son of the Father but the Son of the Holy Ghost.

According to the Nicene Creed He was the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father.

According to the Athanasian Creed He is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

And we should accept these creeds as truth, why? That is no different than asking us to believe something simply because "the Bible says so." Both were written by fallible people.

The point of the thread was to point out an obvious inconsistency in the Bible where it forces us to conclude that Jesus is both a distinct individual as well as, at the same time, being his own father. Unfortunately, Trinitarians are the masters of excuses and of switching their emphases mid-conversation.
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

Offline Historicity

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Re: The Jesus is God Conundrum
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2012, 04:04:48 PM »
As for the water states let me mention the useful fact that is the basis of something you see.

The weight of a kilogram is 1000 cc of water at 4°C.  (=39°F)  That temperature is the maximum density of water.  Water starts gathering ice crystals long before it freezes across.  These increase the total volume overlapping the continuous shrinkage of the liquid parts of the water.  Below 4°C the increasing volume of dissolved ice takes over, above 4°C the increased volume of the liquid water takes over.

Water is not the only material that has strange states.  I can't remember offhand what the alloy was -- gallium or bismuth come to mind -- but back around 1900 to precisely measure the inside of some machined items a slug of that was melted in it.  After it hardened, it cooled further and shrank and could be dumped out.  Then it would start to expand!  About an hour after the cooling it would be back at the volume it had when it was liquid.

Now that I've rambled off track and talked about things that are provable, I apologize.  Let's get back to metaphysics where nothing is provable.




Offline Historicity

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Re: The Jesus is God Conundrum
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2012, 04:06:49 PM »
And we should accept these creeds as truth, why? That is no different than asking us to believe something simply because "the Bible says so." Both were written by fallible people.

The point of the thread was to point out an obvious inconsistency in the Bible where it forces us to conclude that Jesus is both a distinct individual as well as, at the same time, being his own father. Unfortunately, Trinitarians are the masters of excuses and of switching their emphases mid-conversation.
Why are you asking me?

I know the point of the thread, thank you.  I obviously know the point of the thread.  I supplied information.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 04:15:55 PM by Historicity »

Offline GodlessHeathen

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Re: The Jesus is God Conundrum
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2012, 04:37:14 PM »
Why are you asking me?

I didn't. The original post was presented as a statement, not a question.
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

Offline GodlessHeathen

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Re: The Jesus is God Conundrum
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2012, 04:52:40 PM »
According to the Bible, Jesus was his own father (John 17:1, 3 with John 1:1, 14). :?
According to the Apostles' Creed is not the Son of the Father but the Son of the Holy Ghost.

According to the Nicene Creed He was the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father.

According to the Athanasian Creed He is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

Oh man I am so sorry... I should have read your posts in order. I thought you were trying to spout off creeds to prove the Trinity when you were pointing out more inconsistencies. My bad.  :(
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" (Christopher Hitchens).

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Re: The Jesus is God Conundrum
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2012, 04:55:51 PM »
Interesting to know we only use 10% of our brain.

I see Omen already helped you with this, but I'd like to quote it once more to point out how easily you throw the word "know" down.

Next time you claim to know something, you need to show where the "knowledge" comes from. That's non-negotiable if you're going to get taken seriously as anything more than someone's puppet.
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline Historicity

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Re: The Jesus is God Conundrum
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2012, 05:39:40 PM »
Oh man I am so sorry... I should have read your posts in order. I thought you were trying to spout off creeds to prove the Trinity when you were pointing out more inconsistencies. My bad.  :(

Thank you.  That makes me feel better.

I was raised in a church that used the Apostles' Creed.  Then one day we switched to the Nicene and used it ever after.  I never gave much thought.  The stuff about "proceedeth" and "begotten" was mystic poetry to me.  It was like a software EULA.  Just click the [I agree] button at the bottom.

I'm not the only one.  In the movie Warlock (not to be confused with the movie Warlock) the warlock projected thru time to 20th century Los Angeles needed to phone home.  So he went to a fake medium or as they call themselves these days, a channeler.

"I wish to channel a spirit", he said.

"What is the name?" said the channeler.

"He has many names", said the warlock.

He decided on a name the medium hadn't heard and the medium had his first real trance (and his last as well).  Possessing the medium Satan sends the warlock on a quest that will completely nullify God's power in the universe.  The warlock asks for a reward for this.  Satan says, "You will be my only begotten Son." 

The script writer must've meant something like "my sole inheritor" or "my favorite son".