Author Topic: Is it moral just because  (Read 412 times)

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Offline Babdah

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Is it moral just because
« on: February 28, 2012, 09:47:24 PM »
I think it is considered immoral for me to steal from my neighbor, Austin,  in order to send my kids to school, or to paint a picture, or to subsidize my tobacco crop, so how can it be right for me to do it using the government as my agent? Is it moral just because enough of us vote to take Austin's money for something we want to do? Is this "mob rule" okay for any purpose, or only if it is a "good" purpose? If so, who decides what a "good" purpose is?
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Offline Tero

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Re: Is it moral just because
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2012, 10:17:53 PM »
You are discussing politics. Politics has no morals, only winners and losers.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Is it moral just because
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2012, 10:35:32 PM »
Badbah, is that really how you're using the government?  Or is that a mutually beneficial system, providing the framework for your quality of life?
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Offline Babdah

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Re: Is it moral just because
« Reply #3 on: February 29, 2012, 11:24:21 AM »
Badbah, is that really how you're using the government?

Nope I dont use the government if I dont have to.

Or is that a mutually beneficial system, providing the framework for your quality of life?

How can it be a mutually beneficial system when only certien people can use the system while other struggle to get by.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Is it moral just because
« Reply #4 on: February 29, 2012, 11:26:57 AM »
so, Babdah, do you think the gov't should do more for people, to spread the wealth around more evenly? 

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Offline atheola

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Re: Is it moral just because
« Reply #5 on: February 29, 2012, 11:38:10 AM »
How about those new fangled public streets? Do you use them or just drive over Millies flower beds on the way to your  J O B?  :?
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Is it moral just because
« Reply #6 on: February 29, 2012, 12:16:36 PM »
Badbah, is that really how you're using the government?

Nope I dont use the government if I dont have to.

Total dodge.  Answer the question.  When you take advantage of everything the government provides, is it with the intention of stealing from others?

Or is that a mutually beneficial system, providing the framework for your quality of life?

How can it be a mutually beneficial system when only certien people can use the system while other struggle to get by.

Everyone uses the system, who lives within it.  Hell, even just using printed currency is using the government.  I think you're taking a lot of stuff for granted here.
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Offline atheola

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Re: Is it moral just because
« Reply #7 on: February 29, 2012, 01:12:28 PM »
Using roads, currency, electricity (TVA etc),drinking water AND waste disposal, alcohol consumption, tobacco use, disaster preparedness, the wood framing your dwelling has and all its code violations, nuisance abatement, prisons to keep the dangerous fucks locked up, courts, police, doctor certifications, your education (if you have any)...the list could quite literally bury this sites database..
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Is it moral just because
« Reply #8 on: February 29, 2012, 01:30:10 PM »
^^ And of course, a lot of those bear directly on a business's ability to operate effectively.  And thus to pay people.  Libertarians are living in a reality-free zone.
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Offline Babdah

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Re: Is it moral just because
« Reply #9 on: February 29, 2012, 01:31:00 PM »
so, Babdah, do you think the gov't should do more for people, to spread the wealth around more evenly?

Not so much spread the wealth around but use it as a hand up instead of a hand out.

Total dodge.  Answer the question.  When you take advantage of everything the government provides, is it with the intention of stealing from others?

In the broad spectum it is a dodge but when we have to spend tax money on tobacco grower in stead of allowing them figure out that not as many people smoke any more. Welfare and food stamps,section 8 and stuff like that I understand that many need help but it becomes a problem when they stop regulateing it for the people that abuse it.why should I have to pay for them for anything over a year? 


Or is that a mutually beneficial system, providing the framework for your quality of life?
Everyone uses the system, who lives within it.  Hell, even just using printed currency is using the government.  I think you're taking a lot of stuff for granted here.
[/quote]

I understand that the public service sector, like printing money, and streets,and soforth is great but it is the ones that abuse the systems like welfare food stamps and other services that dont allow someone help when they need it most, but allow dead beats to use the system for as long as they want with out regualtion. 
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Is it moral just because
« Reply #10 on: February 29, 2012, 01:40:11 PM »
In the broad spectum it is a dodge but when we have to spend tax money on tobacco grower in stead of allowing them figure out that not as many people smoke any more. Welfare and food stamps,section 8 and stuff like that I understand that many need help but it becomes a problem when they stop regulateing it for the people that abuse it.why should I have to pay for them for anything over a year?

Who has stopped regulating it?  And the reason you and everyone else should have to pay for the abusers is that paying for some of the ones who abuse the system is the only way to help the ones who do not.  This is true of every system of aid:  Some targets of aid are abusing the system, and this can be minimized but rarely eliminated.  Solving the problem by shutting down aid fails to accomplish the task set down in the first place.

I understand that the public service sector, like printing money, and streets,and soforth is great but it is the ones that abuse the systems like welfare food stamps and other services that dont allow someone help when they need it most, but allow dead beats to use the system for as long as they want with out regualtion.

So re-tool the system.  If you know of a better way to accomplish those tasks, one that allows for less abuse while maintaining the current level of aid, then go for it.  I'm sure a lot of policy-makers would be happy to take your suggestion rather than pay people to actually study the issue an come to an educated conclusion about it.

Keep in mind that you are even including school in this.  That was in your opening post.  Sending your kids to kindergarten is, in your eyes, stealing from others via the government.  Don't suddenly make this just about welfare.
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Offline atheola

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Re: Is it moral just because
« Reply #11 on: February 29, 2012, 01:51:48 PM »
Those abusers killed a few hundred thousand people in the latest wars..lets cut those people depending on a defended nation...because some REALLY FUCKING  abuse it.
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Offline Babdah

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Re: Is it moral just because
« Reply #12 on: February 29, 2012, 08:19:36 PM »
Who has stopped regulating it?  And the reason you and everyone else should have to pay for the abusers is that paying for some of the ones who abuse the system is the only way to help the ones who do not.  This is true of every system of aid:  Some targets of aid are abusing the system, and this can be minimized but rarely eliminated.  Solving the problem by shutting down aid fails to accomplish the task set down in the first place.

That is true, although maybe it could be fixed with tighter restrictions or something.
 
Keep in mind that you are even including school in this.  That was in your opening post.  Sending your kids to kindergarten is, in your eyes, stealing from others via the government.  Don't suddenly make this just about welfare.

I know about as much information for other states school system as a tea leaf does the East India Company, so I am only speaking about my state, but I am sure that many states are like this one. We spend money one the school system to educate our kids not to make everything hunky dory and fair, they are falling into the non-competition trap.  No-one wants any kid to feel “bad” about themselves because they didn’t win the race, or game, or contest.  Smart kids are made to feel guilty and ostracized, while the average kid is held up as the model for the rest.  Well, guess what?  The real world doesn’t reward average, it rewards the best and the brightest. I honestly think that public schools are teaching our kids to be lazy.  Teachers accept late assignments without penalty.  My best friends’ son has 15 missing assignments in one class and he is at a loss as to how to deal with it.  They just needed to be turned in before the end of the semester and there was no penalty at all for being late Our school system pushes one-sided revisionist history, IF they teach any real history at all.  Critical information is conveniently glossed-over to emphasize other points.  In public school history, there were no violent indians, only the South had slaves, and all slave-traders were white.  Yes, this country has some tough history to explain, but overall we’ve had a positive impact on the world and THAT should be the emphasis.
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Offline atheola

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Re: Is it moral just because
« Reply #13 on: February 29, 2012, 08:46:15 PM »
Suppose we just quit schools altogether because there are some bad schools. I know..if you're an AVERAGE student lets cut you. We'll only educate the best kids we like..maybe the blonde haired blue eyed devils and all the brown kids can go pick crops... Feel better now?

I'm beginning to get a feel for your scholarly achievements. :blank:
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Offline Babdah

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Re: Is it moral just because
« Reply #14 on: February 29, 2012, 08:58:38 PM »
Suppose we just quit schools altogether because there are some bad schools. I know..if you're an AVERAGE student lets cut you. We'll only educate the best kids we like..maybe the blonde haired blue eyed devils and all the brown kids can go pick crops... Feel better now?

I'm beginning to get a feel for your scholarly achievements. :blank:


I am going to chalk this comment up to you not understanding what I am say, so here is what i am saying. Change the system to challenge all kids to their levels. Don’t just teach to the test, challenge the kids!!! Otherwise you’re wasting my money. My kids are in a private school, after a few years in public school where they hated it and they are excelling were they would of wasted away in public schools
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Is it moral just because
« Reply #15 on: February 29, 2012, 09:09:12 PM »
There are several relevant facts of life here:

A: Any time any more than $5 is involved, somebody somewhere will be plotting to make it theirs, without earning it.

B: Yes, this includes welfare types. But that commie socialist left-winger Bill Clinton brought welfare almost to a halt, putting limits to how long any given family could receive benefits, and folks just had to figure out something else. Darn it. (I used to be a welfare worker, and we hauled people into court all the time for defrauding the system. It's not like the bureaucrats sit around and ignore the fraud. Cops don't catch everybody. Neither could we. But we tried).

Food stamps really help when economic times are tough. They keep the armed robberies to a minimum, so they're not all bad.

C: To complain about welfare and the lazy people when the sick f**k's in banking and on wall street caused this latest debacle with a level of greed that makes a thousand dollar hooker look like a saint is to ignore reality. Remember when I said any amount over $5 is fair game. In the big money world, they think every frickin' penny is theirs and they are out to get it. To blame the poor and foreign aid and tax collectors when it is the big boys causing most of the problems is to avoid the truth.

D: People who want all that money and want all the power are inspired to create legal and illegal methods to get it. We nice and honest folk are screwed from the beginning because we don't know how to be that appalling. What we are good at is looking around and picking some alternativer reason for our various woes (the poor robbing us, taxes). Granted, we play into the hands  of the rich and the lobbyists and the oil companies and the military-industrial complex when we do that. But they don't mind. They want us bopping our innocent neighbors over the head so we won't notice the complicity of those rich and powerful people in just about everything that is wrong with the world.

E:Until we can get money out of politics, our political activities will be limited to just hoping we can make a change. Because without having more money than the powerful have, we ain't got nothing in the current system. Until we can get the corruption out of the government (and do something about the media effete's whose goal in life is to be named to People magazines sexiest people list), all we can do is pick a pet peeve and pretend it is the only reason life sucks. The poor, taxes, global warming, the environment, small business regulations; you name it, somebody is pretty sure that's the only reason life sucks.

The left and right are pissed at each other because they've been told to be. By those rich enough to know how to distract ue. Like I've said before, it's cheaper to get the slaves to guard themselves then it is to have armed security. All the powerful have to do is keep us busy with petty nonsense like this, so that we are no danger to them. Whether it's the flag you salute or the anthem you sing, when you play into their hands, you feel good. Enjoy.

Oh, if you want to earn bonus points as a nice slave, buy into conspiracy theories, like flying saucers, 9/11. fake moon landings or jet contrails being used to medicate the masses. You'll be eligible for extra food stamps.

P.S. Every once in a while I rant about stuff like this. You don't want to be around when that happens. I get mean.
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Offline Babdah

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Re: Is it moral just because
« Reply #16 on: February 29, 2012, 09:29:07 PM »
To complain about welfare and the lazy people ...

Im not really complaining about them, but mostly ranting about how the people who need help can never get the help they need because of the type of house or how many cars they have.

In the big money world, they think every frickin' penny is theirs and they are out to get it

I know a few people that are like this, and always hear them complaining about how they can not get anywhere. I wonder how this country would be if every one was like this.

People who want all that money and want all the power are inspired to create legal and illegal methods to get it. We nice and honest folk are screwed from the beginning because we don't know how to be that appalling.

Never look at it this way, I dont truely understand the Occupy movement but I have read new laws that seemed to be made for reason to stop them. this also leads to wonder if Hitler was elected to parliament, and the ancient Greek parliament, which was more representative than what we have today, voted to kill Socrates for teaching young men to think, so is Democracy the best we can do? If people vote to violate their own rights or those of others just because "some" people are to lazy to try to understand the real meaning behind the law they are trying to pass, is it okay, just because the majority wants it that way? If not how could we possable change it?


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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Is it moral just because
« Reply #17 on: February 29, 2012, 09:46:30 PM »
It's all very frustrating, Babdah. I don't know that there is an answer. I think we (Americans) are now seeing the results of our bike helmeted/safe playgrounded/taught for the tests/protected from ourselves culture along with the corruption at the top. Your comment earlier on education is spot on. If kids aren't challenged, they aren't going to go far. If they're not allowed to have passions when learning, they won't have passions about anything. If a kid excited about writing or science has to sit in a classroom full of bullies and learn the same arithmetic lesson over and over so the school's test scores will be high enough, we're going to loose him or her quick. Along with the rest of the class.

And sadly, those in power have no interest in a good education system. They figure enough smart kids make it through to meet their need for middle managers, and everything else is just gravy.

Life isn't fair. And there are those out there determined to keep it that way. The Occupy Wall Street movement is handicapped by trying to be overly fair, and they come off as a bunch of modern day hippies. We need something else. But I've no idea what it is.

You're probably asking the right questions. I sure wish we all had answers.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Is it moral just because
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2012, 09:36:44 AM »
so, Babdah, do you think the gov't should do more for people, to spread the wealth around more evenly?

Not so much spread the wealth around but use it as a hand up instead of a hand out.
  So it's up to you to decide which it is?  You see, B, you seem to be just repeating sound bites from Republicans who are hypocrites about how much they claim that "deadbeats" abuse the system, but oh they have to have "subsidies" for their various corporate friends. 
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Offline Babdah

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Re: Is it moral just because
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2012, 10:47:41 PM »
so, Babdah, do you think the gov't should do more for people, to spread the wealth around more evenly?

Not so much spread the wealth around but use it as a hand up instead of a hand out.
  So it's up to you to decide which it is?  You see, B, you seem to be just repeating sound bites from Republicans who are hypocrites about how much they claim that "deadbeats" abuse the system, but oh they have to have "subsidies" for their various corporate friends.

You know you are right, but I'm as far left as I can be. I honestly think that if we removed the lobbyist from the politics maybe we the people would be able to do something.
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Offline Historicity

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Re: Is it moral just because
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2012, 11:16:06 PM »

Offline Historicity

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Re: Is it moral just because
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2012, 11:24:48 PM »
I'm angry that,

Pensions are being paid to men and women who fought a war before I was born.  Did anyone ask my permission?

Hell, generations of tax robbers have created an educated society I live in.  Fine.  But should I be forced to pay to continue that into the future? 

And the police spend way too much time policing people and property in parts of this county where I never go.

Government can't create jobs.  I mean when the government pays someone to mow a park that's not job creation.  But when free enterprise pays someone to mow a lawn, that's job creation.  Isn't that obvious?  Of course it is.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Is it moral just because
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2012, 09:18:48 AM »
so, Babdah, do you think the gov't should do more for people, to spread the wealth around more evenly?

Not so much spread the wealth around but use it as a hand up instead of a hand out.
  So it's up to you to decide which it is?  You see, B, you seem to be just repeating sound bites from Republicans who are hypocrites about how much they claim that "deadbeats" abuse the system, but oh they have to have "subsidies" for their various corporate friends.

You know you are right, but I'm as far left as I can be. I honestly think that if we removed the lobbyist from the politics maybe we the people would be able to do something.

lobbyists can be bad or good.  I work for a non-profit, and we lobby for mass transit, fixing our infrastructure (roads, sewers, water, et al), allowing local gov't to share expenses, etc.  Now, for example, there are people who don't want gov't to have anything to do with infrastructure, that how dare anyone spend *their* money on providing roads for everyone.  We lobby to show how this is a very ignorant and selfish position to take and show how this will hurt everyone. 

"We the people" is a great idea in theory, but many people are ignorant and are willfully so, unwilling to take the time to consider the ramifications of their positions.  "We the people" also is a bad idea when it comes to protecting the minority from the majority.  If we went totally on the "majority" rules, we'd still be allowing slavery, etc. 
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Offline Babdah

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Re: Is it moral just because
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2012, 09:47:00 AM »
lobbyists can be bad or good.  I work for a non-profit, and we lobby for mass transit, fixing our infrastructure (roads, sewers, water, et al), allowing local gov't to share expenses, etc.  Now, for example, there are people who don't want gov't to have anything to do with infrastructure, that how dare anyone spend *their* money on providing roads for everyone.  We lobby to show how this is a very ignorant and selfish position to take and show how this will hurt everyone.   

Now I did not know that we had to lobby for roads and such learn something new everyday. I guess it is hard to see the little things that work for the good when all you can see is how bankers lobbying and shoveing money down the politions throat to get things they want.

"We the people" is a great idea in theory, but many people are ignorant and are willfully so, unwilling to take the time to consider the ramifications of their positions.  "We the people" also is a bad idea when it comes to protecting the minority from the majority.  If we went totally on the "majority" rules, we'd still be allowing slavery, etc.

I havent ever look at it this way before...
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