Author Topic: Personhood bill trying to be passed in my state, Oklahoma (anti abortion bill)  (Read 525 times)

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Offline Turbo SS

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Sometimes I hate the bible belt.  But Oklahoma is my home and I love it for many other reasons.   

Here is an article from one newspapger about it.  Read the comments for some idiotic lolz.  http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=336&articleid=20120228_336_0_OKLAHO12436&allcom=1#2907723&r=2167#2907802

I dont really know what to do except write my rep which i am sure they will just throw in the trash.  Or vote against  my representative next election if he votes for it.  :'(
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 03:35:30 PM by Turbo SS »

Offline velkyn

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write your legislator, it can't hurt.   I wonder, will they arrest god for committing so many murders?

they're trying to do the same things here in PA.
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Offline jaimehlers

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I used to argue with some of those posters.  Looking at it now, it's just sad.  They're too busy trying to one-up each other to realize how stupid they sound.

A fertilized egg is not a person.  The most you can say is that it will develop into a person, provided it survives, which is not a sure thing.  Passing this law is like jumping the shark, because of all those unintended consequences that they're too busy ignoring because now they're Doing Something About Abortion.  Should we charge women who miscarry with accidental death?  Someone who drops a fertilized egg container with manslaugher?  Where does this nonsense end, once we get started on it?

I don't agree with screwtape that abortion should be a casual decision, but I know that I can't make him treat it any other way.  Nor would I want to, because I still wouldn't succeed and I would just be grinding my own ideals into the dust in the process.

Offline Turbo SS

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I agree.  As of now I dont know which side of the fence this representative is on but the odds are being in Oklahoma they are for it.  I was thinking I could make more people aware of it but then I thought being in Oklahoma that might actually backfire haha :-X

Offline HAL

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If a human being is defined at conception, and it's illegal to murder human beings, then what happens if it goes down the toilet by accident or some other unforeseen chemical reaction due to the mother's eating habits or other intakes of chemical materials. Is she going to be up on murder or manslaughter charges?

Offline Turbo SS

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I think they are claiming the woman cant be charge for manslaughter due to a miscarriage. 

Offline Frank

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We all know where this will end as do all these absurd attempts to curtail abortion. In the courts. It will make its way through the byzantine legal system of America. Eventually it will end up in SCOTUS where no doubt it will be struck down. In the meantime the fundies will get a chance to grandstand, it will cause a lot of misery to those it affects and, as always, the lawyers will benefit from a shitload of Oklahoma tax payers money.
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Offline Turbo SS

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lol some guy in the comments said prove that a zygote has ever developed into something besides a human.   :o  I sent him on his way to wikipedia to look up zygote.

Offline HAL

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I think they are claiming the woman cant be charge for manslaughter due to a miscarriage.

Hey, they defined it as a human. A human is a human. How can one be valued less than another - seems like they want the definition bent to suit their agenda.

Offline Turbo SS

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good point.  Also someone responded to my zygote refutation with "Does a zygote in a chicken egg ever become a human, or a dog? No, so calling a baby a zygote and classifying it as a non-human seems like bad science to me... "


I dont know why he is even bringing that up since all I was doing was saying zygotes become other things besides humans in response to the guy that said otherwise.  Not sure how I want to respond to this guy.  ideas?

Offline HAL

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According to them, a fertilized egg is a human being. If a born baby human somehow got trapped in the sewer system, the whole damn thing would be torn up to get it out. Since a fertilized egg is by their definition - a human being, the same thing has to occur to find it if it gets flushed down the toilet.

They are playing games with their own definition. They must have learned these tricks from Sunday school, as children.

Offline inveni0

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I actually believe that human life is precious regardless of its phase of development.  It has nothing to do with "personhood", and I don't believe parents should be able to kill their severely retarded children.  The bottom line is that both sides make arguments for what is most convenient.  For me, it's a matter of what I consider human...and I consider a fertilized egg to be a human being at its earliest phase of development.  Does that mean that a woman who miscarries because she stumbles down the stairs because she was wearing high heels should be found guilty of manslaughter?  No.  Similarly, should abortion be illegal?  No.

Well, you might ask, if a fertilized egg is a human, wouldn't abortion be murder?  Maybe, I say.  That's why I stand against it.  People can argue all day about what's what, and the answer will never come until we have an understanding of human consciousness.  But even if we understood consciousness, what about the severely mentally handicapped?  I couldn't in good conscience put a four-year old child with special needs in a blender just because the idea of raising that child made me uncomfortable.  And so I refuse to do it to any human life, regardless of its stage of development.

As for the law?  I think abortions should be allowed, but I also think that pre and post group therapy should be mandatory (and paid for with tax-payer money) lest the woman face charges of medical negligence.

Are these feelings based on anything truly rational?  Probably not.  I base them mostly on my children's smiles.  But that's why I won't vote against abortion.  But I would vote in favor of making it more difficult a procedure than having your hair dyed.
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Online One Above All

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We DO understand human consciousness, or at least we understand one very important thing - it can't exist without the brain. A zygote is no more human than hair, blood, spermatozoa or any other cells from the human body. It's non-sentient. It's basically a parasite with a hint of tumor. Fast growing and requires sustenance from its host to survive.
And before you go all "ZOMG ZYGOTE TOTALLY BE ALIVE!!!" on me, I suggest you read the "basically" five times.
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Offline HAL

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We give rights to personsWiki, one of the attributes of a person is that it be a human being, but that's not all. A fertilized egg is not a person, therefore it doesn't have the rights that persons do. That's why they want to call the fertilized egg a person via the bill. But, IHMO, it doesn't have the qualities that have ever been associated with persons before. You see the dangers of this action, if the fertilized egg (person) gets flushed down the toilet, how can you not tear up the sewer system to save the person? You cannot call it a person and then proceed to not treat it as a person.

All they want to do is stop abortions, and they don't really care about the persons they will be defining with the bill, because they won't go into the sewer system to save them.

Offline velkyn

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inveniO,
Why should someone else have the right to force me to go to *group* therapy?  What would that do other than try to force me to change my mind by guilt and assume that I'm not an adult that can make my own decisions?   
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Offline Frank

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As for the law?  I think abortions should be allowed, but I also think that pre and post group therapy should be mandatory (and paid for with tax-payer money) lest the woman face charges of medical negligence.

Are these feelings based on anything truly rational?  Probably not.  I base them mostly on my children's smiles.  But that's why I won't vote against abortion.  But I would vote in favor of making it more difficult a procedure than having your hair dyed.

Of course as a grown adult you could just mind your own business as other adults keep their noses out of yours. Would that be completely beyond you?

That's the difference between me and you. Other peoples business, regardless of what it is, has nothing to do with me and I only offer advice if it is sought.

I don't care how easy abortion is. It's a womans choice and that's how it should stay. End of.
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Online Azdgari

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I actually believe that human life is precious regardless of its phase of development.

Why?  What's precious to you about it?  My skin cells are human life, and you did say "regardless" of phase of development.

Similarly, a woman's eggs are human life.  Their DNA is 100% human, they're cells...are they precious to you?
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 02:07:01 PM by Azdgari »
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Offline Ivellios

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Just think of all that mass involuntary manslaughter going on with all his skin cells. Just sweep a 3' x 3' square in his house can get him charged with thousands of sentences.

Online One Above All

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Just think of all that mass involuntary manslaughter going on with all his skin cells. Just sweep a 3' x 3' square in his house can get him charged with thousands of sentences.

And I don't even want to imagine how many times he masturbates every week... Genocide, plain and simple.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Online One Above All

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Azdgari, that was just an expression. It's not literal. It depends on how hot he is. ;)
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline Frank

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Don't forget if any of you guys are planning a wank you should have a mandatory pre and post group therapy just to hash out the repercussions of all those sperms that will never get to be babies.
"Atheism is not a mission to convert the world. It only seems that way because when other religions fall away, atheism is what is left behind".

Online Azdgari

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Nah, Frank, it's just the women who need that kind of patronizing control-measure.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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inveni0

If human life is so precious, why don't we make it against the law to NOT be pregnant. Drawing the line at zygotes is artificial. An unfertilized egg is just as human.

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