Author Topic: how to stop the contraception nonsense debate  (Read 4768 times)

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: how to stop the contraception nonsense debate
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2012, 03:36:58 AM »

 It shares human DNA, yes, but it is no more human than my hair.

It shares human DNA? With what does it share it's DNA?


It can't think, it can't feel pain, it can't see... it can't experience anything. 

Are you sure a fetus or embryo can't feel pain? Even if it couldn't, there are adults who can't. Not human? Admittedly, I can't think of any examples of people that can't see. hang on...hang on..oh, yes...blind people. Line em up and shoot them?


The rest of your post was really too silly to respond to.

Do you consider animals as important as humans?

Go on up you baldhead.

Offline atheola

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Re: how to stop the contraception nonsense debate
« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2012, 05:07:22 AM »
Wow...I had no idea abortion stired up peoples emotions...I just wanted to bankrupt these ratbastered church do gooders with child care expenses then sue the santorums for child abuse and neglect and suddenly we're discussing whether conception begins as soon as a man thinks about cracking open a beer.. Hell, it MIGHT  begin soon as a beer commercial starts for all I know.. I didnt study biology in college.
What I DO know as established creation 'science' FACT is that if a child is born with two heads, one with its brain on the outside and the other in its foot because mom and dad have been meth addicts and is born on the couch while the mother is giving head for a hit then the cat drags it away and eats it while nobody is paying attention then it is indisputable PROOF of gods will and such a precious event.

Note the overabundance of slight hint of sarcasm.

Besides..would anyone here object had Rick Santorum's mother had a late term abortion?
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Offline atheola

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Re: how to stop the contraception nonsense debate
« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2012, 05:20:14 AM »
And by the way..as to whether or not I still beat my wife.. yes...no!..Oh wait..you'll have to ask her.. She lives at some battered womens place..I think it's some kind of baking school or something.. &)

I can already hear my sister yelling, HEY! Now that's not funny and uncalled for...in typical sisterly overly bossy manner. ;)
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 05:24:46 AM by atheola »
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Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: how to stop the contraception nonsense debate
« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2012, 07:24:50 AM »
Mm, are you against animal experimentation?

I certainly value human life above animal life.

This is the meat of it.

Why? Are there mundane reasons, or is it the supernatural, religious aspect?
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline atheola

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Re: how to stop the contraception nonsense debate
« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2012, 07:48:31 AM »
Animals don't file law suits with the ACLU maybe? :?
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Offline RNS

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Re: how to stop the contraception nonsense debate
« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2012, 08:40:56 AM »
Well, looking back I have referred to both fetus and child. Because I consider them the same, of course. Yes, clearly others on the site don't see it that way.

But isn't that sort of the point of a discussion forum, to put your point of view?
Sorry to be pedantic, but It's not a point of view. That's like choosing to call an acorn a tree and then justifying it by saying it's just your point of view.
I think the difference in terms is important and the fact that fetus and baby/child are synonymous to you reveals what is actually just your point of view and possibly also a lack of understanding in what the difference actually is.

Are you sure a fetus or embryo can't feel pain? Even if it couldn't, there are adults who can't. Not human? Admittedly, I can't think of any examples of people that can't see. hang on...hang on..oh, yes...blind people. Line em up and shoot them?
This is a bad analogy. Someone with CIP(A) or a blind person actually has a concious understanding of life and their surroundings. They are actually fully formed (except for their respective disabilities) human beings, i.e. they are finished. A fetus isn't really a person yet, otherwise they would not need to continue developing to actually become one.

Mm, are you against animal experimentation?

I certainly value human life above animal life.

This is the meat of it.
I was going to ask this as well. By what standards to you judge the value of different life forms? How did you work this out, that human life is more important that animal life?

EDIT: the acorn-tree analogy
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 10:34:43 AM by RNS »
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: how to stop the contraception nonsense debate
« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2012, 08:49:26 AM »
Well, looking back I have referred to both fetus and child. Because I consider them the same, of course. Yes, clearly others on the site don't see it that way.

So you did do what I described.

But isn't that sort of the point of a discussion forum, to put your point of view?

To deliberately do so in a way that is nonsensical to your audience?  Hmm.  Makes me question your motives, and how much you actually desire a discussion.  The Muslim in my example does not actually try to justify his implication that his Christian audience members are devoting their lives to evil.  You do not actually try to justify your idea that a zygote is a child.  You speak as though it is assumed to be true.  That is not an attempt at communication.

You know you're doing it.  You acknowledged that you're doing it.  Which means that you have as much interest in genuine communication as does my hypothetical Muslim.

You'll notice I refer to Christian rather than x-ian also.

Relevance?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 08:51:18 AM by Azdgari »
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Online One Above All

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Re: how to stop the contraception nonsense debate
« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2012, 08:56:38 AM »
It shares human DNA? With what does it share it's DNA?

...With humans. The DNA is the same as humans'.

Are you sure a fetus or embryo can't feel pain? Even if it couldn't, there are adults who can't. Not human? Admittedly, I can't think of any examples of people that can't see. hang on...hang on..oh, yes...blind people. Line em up and shoot them?

Nice[1] strawman.

It can't think, it can't feel pain, it can't see... it can't experience anything.

The rest of your post was really too silly to respond to.

That's what happens when I use your logic. Curious, isn't it?

Do you consider animals as important as humans?

I thought that was obvious.
 1. Not.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Offline Quesi

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Re: how to stop the contraception nonsense debate
« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2012, 08:57:44 AM »
Have you ever gotten a dozen eggs from a family farm, as opposed to industrial egg farms that are most common in the first world today?

If you have, chances are at some point you’ve cracked open an egg to make your omelet, and found a little red dot inside of the egg.

That is a fertilized egg.

It is not a chicken.  It is a fertilized egg.

I do not pretend that I have definitive an answer as to “when life begins.”  I believe that conception results in a fertilized egg.  Not a chicken, and not a human being.  There is some developmental point at which a fertilized egg becomes a viable being, that deserves the recognition of being a life, independent of the uterus or eggshell in which it resides.  But there is a significant span of time between the moment of conception, and the stage at which a fertilized egg becomes a viable life unto itself. 

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: how to stop the contraception nonsense debate
« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2012, 10:29:32 AM »
Is a foundation a building?  No, but it's necessary to make a building.

You don't get a child without progressing from a fertilized egg, to a zygote, an embryo, a fetus, etc.  But a child is not actually any of those things.  A fertilized egg, a zygote, an embryo, these are all just as much a potential human life as sperm and egg gametes.  A fetus, at least, is developed enough that it usually does become a human child, but the child is still not the fetus, anymore than a butterfly is a caterpillar

The point being, talking about how immoral it is to abort a zygote or embryo, but letting pregnant women fend for themselves if they were raped or abandoned by their male partner, yet actually want to carry the child to term, tends to ring false.  It comes across like the state of pregnancy is sacred, yet no special care need be taken except to make sure that nobody can end that state except by giving birth.  And to be honest, that kind of hypocrisy disgusts me.  I know that this doesn't describe everyone opposed to abortion, but most of the ones it doesn't describe don't seem to notice the way the anti-abortion crowd behaves.

Offline screwtape

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Re: how to stop the contraception nonsense debate
« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2012, 11:26:44 AM »
Abortion is should obviously not be a casual choice,

totally disagree.  I do not think a legal medical procedure that is not killing anyone should be cast in such a grave light.  "Oh, I know how hard a decision it is..."  For some people, maybe.  If you believe it is not murder, then it should be no more difficult a decision than having an appendectomy. You need, you get it done. Big fucking deal.  In fact, it is probably safer than an appendectomy.  If every woman had three a week, I'd have no problem with it.  Use it as your primary means of birth control for all I care.  It won't protect you from STDs and it is a lot less cost effective than condoms.  Knock yourself out. 

I refuse to speak of abortions as a tortuous decision or morally heavy idea.  That just plays into the hands of the fuckers who want to take it away. 


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Offline screwtape

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Re: how to stop the contraception nonsense debate
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2012, 11:30:16 AM »
Are you sure a fetus or embryo can't feel pain? Even if it couldn't, there are adults who can't. Not human? Admittedly, I can't think of any examples of people that can't see. hang on...hang on..oh, yes...blind people. Line em up and shoot them?

Is it a person when it has no functioning central nervous system and only limited cardio-pulmonary function?

Do you know any people who consist of fewer cells than a fly's brain?

Your analogies are idiotic.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: how to stop the contraception nonsense debate
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2012, 11:33:53 AM »
MM, a quick question.  If you had to choose between one of these scenarios taking place, or the other, which would you pick and why?

1. A single woman has promiscuous sex with 20 guys in the space of a month, all of whom were wearing condoms.  No pregnancy occurs.
2. A young married woman has unprotected sex with her husband.  She gets pregnant, and the two of them decide to abort in the first trimester.

I'm trying to get a sense of your priorities.
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: how to stop the contraception nonsense debate
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2012, 01:54:38 PM »
Whether you're nine and you've been raped by your dad or you're 25 and you just lost your job and lost your insurance and your husband ran off and now you're pregnant and you don't have the sixteen grand to pay the hospital bill, you might have a reason to get an abortion.

Having a reason is not the same as it being a good, or the right thing to do.

Magic, I will be careful to make sure that my next set of comments pertains to Americans, and in this case, in part to almost all Americans, not just right wingers or fundamentalists. I differentiate because not all right wingers are fundy's.

Right and wrong has nothing to do with it. Or at least not enough. The "right" thing to do in any given set of circumstances is usually overlooked if it is inconvenient. By most all Americans. The religious right has chosen abortion as an issue not because of right and wrong, but because it is so easy. And they have to look like they have the moral high ground, so high visibility issues like abortion make that cause a bit simpler.

Most decisions Americans make (and I'm one of them) have nothing to do with right and wrong. Either we do something because it is convenient, or we do it because it is consistent with our almost universal belief that business is the real god, and it is the first thing we must serve.

I live in a red (Republican, right wing) state. Montana's population is about half native-born and half born elsewhere. I'm one of the latter. I'm going to give you an example of right and wrong being ignored in this country every day because of our need to serve capitalism.

Lets say there is an electrician living in my town named Joe. He was born here, has lived here all his life except for his four years in the military. He is happily married to his first and only wife and they have five wonderful children. They go to church every week and are very active in both their congregation and in the community.

Joe is an electrical contractor and has a small, successful business with two people working for him. His wife does the bookwork. They make a comfortable living and have good health insurance because they can afford it.

Along comes Bill. He's driving through this part of the state with his hooker girlfriend after selling a company he bought, ripped to pieces and sold for a $100 million (that's how Romney made a lot of his money). Anyway, Bill sees how beautiful it is around here and decides to move into this community. He dumps his first bimbo when he finds another at a local bar and starts enjoying the beauty of the place.

But then he starts thinking that he's like to own and electrical contracting business. He sees all the newcomers moving here and can tell there is a lot of business. So he takes some of his millions, buys a fleet of vans, hires outside electricians for low wages from out of the area and starts doing business. He bids low in an effort to get jobs and starts stealing income from established electricians like Joe. And because he's got the money to advertise and he can afford to loose money at first, before long he is driving other electricians out of business. He sees that Joe is in trouble and offers him a job at 20% of what he's been making, with no insurance, but Joe says no.

Before long, Joe goes out of business, along with a lot of other electricians, and then Bill raises his prices and starts sticking it to his customers.

As luck would have it, six months after Joe looses his business and health insurance, one of his kids gets diagnosed with leukemia. With the year Joe has to file for bankruptcy.

Why did I go thorough this story that doesn't have a damn thing to do with abortion? Because stuff like that happens ever day in this country. It is very common. And what do the very people who say abortion is wrong say about Joe and his new predicament?

"That's business".

Where is the right and wrong in that response? There is none. It is merely an observation. Walmart does exactly the same thing every time it moves into a new town. It puts every small business selling clothes and office supplies and food out of business, and then it raises its prices.

But that's business.

Any disinterested third party can see that an economy that doesn't give a rats ass about the individual is ignoring a lot of moral issues. And if that same society is getting all huffy about one moral issue, like abortion, there is a possibility they are doing so just to make themselves sound good.

I want a world where no woman ever feels the pressure to have an abortion unless her health is at stake. And I want a world where the hard working Joe's of the world don't get destroyed by the cutthroat businessmen like Bill. But I'm the immoral one when I say that I understand that sometimes economic or social problems justify an abortion.

I can't speak for Australia, but in this country we have countless examples of fundamentalist christians shoving their double standards down our throat while trying to take the high ground. This country will loose over 1,500 people to drunk driving this month alone. In a country that is 80% christian, what are the odds that only atheists drive drunk? There ain't enough of us to do in other folks at that rate. I can assure you that many a drunk christian has killed many a person while driving a car with anti-abortion bumper stickers. Many an angry father has beaten the crap out of his kids then driven them to the doctor in a car sporting anti-abortion bumper stickers.

If people can't get together and make the entire world more just, yelling shrilly about one, and only one, form of injustice does no good.

If the christian right lived their whole lives in ways that were clearly moral by any standard, then they could jump up and down and complain about the immoral ones all they wanted. But they don't. So they should STFU. Until they are willing to search for solutions for all social problems, not just that one.

You guys down under can yell all you want. We can't hear you from here.

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: how to stop the contraception nonsense debate
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2012, 05:17:03 PM »
Mm, are you against animal experimentation?

I certainly value human life above animal life.

This is the meat of it.

Why? Are there mundane reasons, or is it the supernatural, religious aspect?

I believe God created humans in His image, to have a special place in His creation, and we were made to rule over the animals. To me, that means when it comes to valuing life, human life comes first.

I doubt that is a surprising perspective for a Christian to have.

Even if I wasn't a Christian and believed the universe formed through natural means I imagine I would treat my own species with more importance.

I love most animals, ( cats are my favourite, we "share" a beautiful Burmese with our neighbours - it has multiple family disorder ), and as much as possible I ensure they are treated well. We eat free range eggs, etc.

As an aside, has anyone seen the documentary Food Inc? It's online. Quite an eye-opener.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 05:19:02 PM by magicmiles »
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: how to stop the contraception nonsense debate
« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2012, 05:29:26 PM »
Well, looking back I have referred to both fetus and child. Because I consider them the same, of course. Yes, clearly others on the site don't see it that way.

But isn't that sort of the point of a discussion forum, to put your point of view?
Sorry to be pedantic, but It's not a point of view. That's like choosing to call an acorn a tree and then justifying it by saying it's just your point of view.
I think the difference in terms is important and the fact that fetus and baby/child are synonymous to you reveals what is actually just your point of view and possibly also a lack of understanding in what the difference actually is.

Are you sure a fetus or embryo can't feel pain? Even if it couldn't, there are adults who can't. Not human? Admittedly, I can't think of any examples of people that can't see. hang on...hang on..oh, yes...blind people. Line em up and shoot them?
This is a bad analogy. Someone with CIP(A) or a blind person actually has a concious understanding of life and their surroundings. They are actually fully formed (except for their respective disabilities) human beings, i.e. they are finished. A fetus isn't really a person yet, otherwise they would not need to continue developing to actually become one.

Mm, are you against animal experimentation?

I certainly value human life above animal life.

This is the meat of it.
I was going to ask this as well. By what standards to you judge the value of different life forms? How did you work this out, that human life is more important that animal life?

EDIT: the acorn-tree analogy

Of course it's a point of view. As a Christian, my point of view is that the human body is merely a temporary place of residence for our soul. The reason I hate abortion most is that I believe God provides a soul for human bodies from conception, not just when we are born.

Distinguishing between embryo, fetus and baby is just an arbitrary human thing which has developed. On what ultiamte basis of truth is the distinction made? What percentage of aborted fetuses are viable outside the womb?
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: how to stop the contraception nonsense debate
« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2012, 05:34:59 PM »
Well, looking back I have referred to both fetus and child. Because I consider them the same, of course. Yes, clearly others on the site don't see it that way.

So you did do what I described.

But isn't that sort of the point of a discussion forum, to put your point of view?

To deliberately do so in a way that is nonsensical to your audience?  Hmm.  Makes me question your motives, and how much you actually desire a discussion.  The Muslim in my example does not actually try to justify his implication that his Christian audience members are devoting their lives to evil.  You do not actually try to justify your idea that a zygote is a child.  You speak as though it is assumed to be true.  That is not an attempt at communication.

You know you're doing it.  You acknowledged that you're doing it.  Which means that you have as much interest in genuine communication as does my hypothetical Muslim.

You'll notice I refer to Christian rather than x-ian also.

Relevance?

I don't agree with what you have to say here. My point of view isn't non-sensical, because you all know that I am a Christian and therefore I consider an embryo and fetus to be a unique soul, and therefore what is being aborted is not merely a collection of pre-life cells. Further, you know that I understand your view of the matter. We both understand each other, but we disagree. That, to me, is a basis for communication.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: how to stop the contraception nonsense debate
« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2012, 05:37:42 PM »
It shares human DNA? With what does it share it's DNA?

...With humans. The DNA is the same as humans'.

Are you sure a fetus or embryo can't feel pain? Even if it couldn't, there are adults who can't. Not human? Admittedly, I can't think of any examples of people that can't see. hang on...hang on..oh, yes...blind people. Line em up and shoot them?

Nice[1] strawman.

It can't think, it can't feel pain, it can't see... it can't experience anything.

The rest of your post was really too silly to respond to.

That's what happens when I use your logic. Curious, isn't it?

Do you consider animals as important as humans?

I thought that was obvious.
 1. Not.

OK, so I'll assume you consider animals as important as humans.

Does that mean, say, in a bushfire you wouldn't necessarily prioritise rescuing a family from a farmhouse than the animals from the barn?
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: how to stop the contraception nonsense debate
« Reply #47 on: February 28, 2012, 05:47:53 PM »
Is a foundation a building?  No, but it's necessary to make a building.

You don't get a child without progressing from a fertilized egg, to a zygote, an embryo, a fetus, etc.  But a child is not actually any of those things.  A fertilized egg, a zygote, an embryo, these are all just as much a potential human life as sperm and egg gametes.  A fetus, at least, is developed enough that it usually does become a human child, but the child is still not the fetus, anymore than a butterfly is a caterpillar

The point being, talking about how immoral it is to abort a zygote or embryo, but letting pregnant women fend for themselves if they were raped or abandoned by their male partner, yet actually want to carry the child to term, tends to ring false.  It comes across like the state of pregnancy is sacred, yet no special care need be taken except to make sure that nobody can end that state except by giving birth.  And to be honest, that kind of hypocrisy disgusts me.  I know that this doesn't describe everyone opposed to abortion, but most of the ones it doesn't describe don't seem to notice the way the anti-abortion crowd behaves.

I get upset at militant pro-lifers as much as the next person, because in their passion they can tend to demonize the women and everyone else involved in the process, and that's not a good thing for anybody.

I advocate providing as much care and support for women as possible, but not to the point of aborting their un-born child/embryo/fetus. I recognise that this can be a very traumatic experience, but I beleive abortion to be wrong and I'll hold firm to that opinion.

I've only known 2 women who have had abortions, one was my brothers partner. Both wish with all their being they could go back in tme and give birth.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: how to stop the contraception nonsense debate
« Reply #48 on: February 28, 2012, 05:53:41 PM »
Abortion is should obviously not be a casual choice,

totally disagree.  I do not think a legal medical procedure that is not killing anyone should be cast in such a grave light.  "Oh, I know how hard a decision it is..."  For some people, maybe.  If you believe it is not murder, then it should be no more difficult a decision than having an appendectomy. You need, you get it done. Big fucking deal.  In fact, it is probably safer than an appendectomy.  If every woman had three a week, I'd have no problem with it.  Use it as your primary means of birth control for all I care.  It won't protect you from STDs and it is a lot less cost effective than condoms.  Knock yourself out. 

I refuse to speak of abortions as a tortuous decision or morally heavy idea.  That just plays into the hands of the fuckers who want to take it away.

Yeah, and I'm quite sure if you spent a day in an abortion clinic, witnessing what happens and seeing aborted fetuses with your own eyes you'd think differently.

I'd post pictures of aborted fetuses on here but I think it's un-necessarily graphic and probably quite emotional.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: how to stop the contraception nonsense debate
« Reply #49 on: February 28, 2012, 05:56:06 PM »
Are you sure a fetus or embryo can't feel pain? Even if it couldn't, there are adults who can't. Not human? Admittedly, I can't think of any examples of people that can't see. hang on...hang on..oh, yes...blind people. Line em up and shoot them?

Is it a person when it has no functioning central nervous system and only limited cardio-pulmonary function?

Do you know any people who consist of fewer cells than a fly's brain?

Your analogies are idiotic.

Do you deny that many late term aborted fetuses can live outside the womb?

You're just a heartless prick as far as I can gather from most of your posts.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: how to stop the contraception nonsense debate
« Reply #50 on: February 28, 2012, 05:57:30 PM »
MM, a quick question.  If you had to choose between one of these scenarios taking place, or the other, which would you pick and why?

1. A single woman has promiscuous sex with 20 guys in the space of a month, all of whom were wearing condoms.  No pregnancy occurs.
2. A young married woman has unprotected sex with her husband.  She gets pregnant, and the two of them decide to abort in the first trimester.

I'm trying to get a sense of your priorities.

If I had to choose?

Option 1.
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Re: how to stop the contraception nonsense debate
« Reply #51 on: February 28, 2012, 06:12:45 PM »
I read your large post PP, but didn't want to quote it. I value your insights, and I do feel there are massive cultural differences between our nations. I'd love to vist the US one day to see and experience your culture first hand. I'd especially love to go to Montana after reading "The Horse Whisperer". ( Don't judge me, please )

My reasons for opposing abortion are linked to my Christian convictions. I'm not outside clinics holding placards every day, and I don't actually take any action on the issue, such as writing to my local memeber of parliament etc. I just consider it to be the wrong thing to do, in any circumstance. Well, I think in any circumstance. I might be struggling with a scenario where a woman's life was in grave danger by continuing with a pregnancy.
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: how to stop the contraception nonsense debate
« Reply #52 on: February 28, 2012, 06:13:42 PM »
As far as I'm concerned, magicmiles, it's not really my place to pass judgment on women who have abortions.  Furthermore, it harms our society worse to try to ban abortions, because women will still have them.  This is what really appalls me about the attitude of most opposed to abortion, because it seems like they think that banning abortions will stop women from having them.  It never has, not throughout all of human history.

My feeling is that the best solution is to push contraception.  There is no question at all that a fertilized egg is not a human being (apart from the "Personhood" movement's position, anyway, which to be blunt is not sensible and has the potential for tremendous unintended consequences), and it is far more effective to keep a pregnancy from happening than it is to try to abort it some months after the fact.  Much less potential trauma, as well.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: how to stop the contraception nonsense debate
« Reply #53 on: February 28, 2012, 06:23:37 PM »
How about only having sex within marriage, with the understanding that in the unlikely event of an unplanned pregnancy you make whatever lifestyle sacrifices are necessary.

Go on up you baldhead.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: how to stop the contraception nonsense debate
« Reply #54 on: February 28, 2012, 06:28:40 PM »
How about only having sex within marriage, with the understanding that in the unlikely event of an unplanned pregnancy you make whatever lifestyle sacrifices are necessary.
So how do you intend to impose this?

Offline Azdgari

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Re: how to stop the contraception nonsense debate
« Reply #55 on: February 28, 2012, 06:33:22 PM »
I don't agree with what you have to say here. My point of view isn't non-sensical, because you all know that I am a Christian and therefore I consider an embryo and fetus to be a unique soul, and therefore what is being aborted is not merely a collection of pre-life cells. Further, you know that I understand your view of the matter. We both understand each other, but we disagree. That, to me, is a basis for communication.

You have that understanding, yet make absolutely no attempt to speak your audience's language?  Nope, no genuine desire for communication.  Just a desire to troll.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: how to stop the contraception nonsense debate
« Reply #56 on: February 28, 2012, 06:34:59 PM »
If I had to choose?

Option 1.

Cool.  So why the opposition to contraception?  The woman in situation #1 would likely be pregnant by now without it, and would be getting an abortion.  Lesser of two evils, even from your perspective, right?
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: how to stop the contraception nonsense debate
« Reply #57 on: February 28, 2012, 06:36:48 PM »
How about only having sex within marriage, with the understanding that in the unlikely event of an unplanned pregnancy you make whatever lifestyle sacrifices are necessary.
So how do you intend to impose this?

Obviously that is a big problem. I'm just saying that it's a much better alternative than having to push safe sex all the time and deal with the problems that arise from having sex outside a marriage.

Go on up you baldhead.