how to stop the contraception nonsense debate

[atheola]

I know how to end this foolishness once and forever.. It wouldn't be real popular with most of you women, but if every woman with a working uterus and functioning ovaries got pregnant tomorrow or within a month anyway, went to Xtian hospitals, plead poverty, have the kids, give em up for adoption to them then stiff em on the bill this anti-contreception anti-abortion debate would end over night.. The pope and Pat Robertson both would be doing commercials for birth control, condoms and their new 24/7EZ drive thru abortion centers attached to Walmart.....but sadly child slavery would probably be legalized.

[One Above All]

It wouldn't work. They'd just say "no" and get on with their lives. In case you haven't noticed, those so-called "pro-lifers" are no more "pro-life" than a virus. They are "pro-birth". As far as they care the women could die during childbirth, the dads could leave and the kids could grow up in an orphanage.

[ParkingPlaces]

I doubt it would work. They would spend more time complaining about the immoral women getting pregnant than the abortion part.

To me the most logical extension of being anti-abortion is making sure every woman is pregnant as often as she can be, and has as many children as she can spit out. But I once asked a couple who were complaining about the immorality of abortion why they weren't expecting, and the simply said they didn't want any more children (they had two). I asked why that was any more moral than a woman with two children aborting the third and they insisted that it was the life that had started that they wanted to save, not the potential one.

I told them I didn't remember a damn thing about being in the womb and if my mom had aborted me, I wouldn't know a thing about it and hence I wouldn't care. Needless to say that put them into shock. Things went downhill from there.

I suspect it is an issue only because it is a way to separate themselves from liberals. That and evolution and global warming and a few other things help draw the line between us. And they need that line bad. If liberals suddenly became anti-abortion, the fundy's would have to find something new to define the difference. The would suddenly decide that liberals using soft toilet paper are instruments of the devil, and insist that the god wants us to use sandpaper. Their slogan would be "When the going gets rough, make it rougher" and they would have bumper stickers that say "40 Grit for JESUS!".

[Nick]

Think of the poors kids living in homes and having priests come to visit.  Not worth it.

[G-Roll]

as soon as everyone is done with Santorum the "debate" will end. 

[Tero]

Some Texas woman did abortion calculations for me.

I did calculations. Found a picture.

I came back with: here are the 5 extra kids every Texas family will raise after YOU banned abortion.

She but me on ignore, never replied.

[magicmiles]

I told them I didn't remember a damn thing about being in the womb and if my mom had aborted me, I wouldn't know a thing about it and hence I wouldn't care. Needless to say that put them into shock. Things went downhill from there.

I doubt you have much memory as a 6 month old either. Lets kill off all the 6 month olds that become a problem, get in the way.

[magicmiles]

Think of the poors kids living in homes and having priests come to visit.  Not worth it.

Nick, you need to seek help. You're overly obsessed with abuse. I noticed it during my first foray onto this site and clearly its still the case.

[magicmiles]

It wouldn't work. They'd just say "no" and get on with their lives. In case you haven't noticed, those so-called "pro-lifers" are no more "pro-life" than a virus. They are "pro-birth". As far as they care the women could die during childbirth, the dads could leave and the kids could grow up in an orphanage.

Interesting point of view Lucifer.

Maybe you can finish this statement, then:

" It's OK to kill a child in the womb when..."

[Ambassador Pony]

It's not a child.

When did you stop beating your wife, mm?

[magicmiles]

Have a look at some aborted fetuses if you think it's not a child.

What are you talking about, beating my wife?

[Ambassador Pony]

Have a look at some aborted fetuses if you think it's not a child.

What are you talking about, beating my wife?

Ok, I did. Not children.

Google it.

[magicmiles]

I have. Babies all the way.

And you didn't explain your rather offensive comment about my wife.

[Ambassador Pony]

Google it. I on my iPad.

[magicmiles]

 You've totally lost me. You want me to google 'aborted fetuses' or "beating my wife'?

[Ambassador Pony]

The wife beating question, as I phrased it. Or similar.

[ParkingPlaces]

I told them I didn't remember a damn thing about being in the womb and if my mom had aborted me, I wouldn't know a thing about it and hence I wouldn't care. Needless to say that put them into shock. Things went downhill from there.

I doubt you have much memory as a 6 month old either. Lets kill off all the 6 month olds that become a problem, get in the way.

No, by then the brain chemistry that creates the morality that christians take all the credit for is working, and the moms want to protect the kid. I wouldn't want to fool with mother nature.

Abortion is should obviously not be a casual choice, but not all pregnancies come at good times. Whether you're nine and you've been raped by your dad or you're 25 and you just lost your job and lost your insurance and your husband ran off and now you're pregnant and you don't have the sixteen grand to pay the hospital bill, you might have a reason to get an abortion. Of course, if the right, who is so against abortion, would allow us to institute a nationalized medical plan so everyone was insured via their taxes, then there would automatically be fewer abortions because kids would be affordable.

I'm not pro abortion. I'm against telling someone they have to have a child. And don't go giving me the abstinence talk. Sex is fun, and to pretend otherwise is to ignore biology. And shit happens. And not always at good times.

It's like 9/11. When 3,000 people get killed by terrorists (horrible, I agree), we head off to war. A war that kills over 6,000 of our own and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's and Afgans. Many innocent amongst them. But when we kill 3,000 a month of our own, half via drunk driving, on the highways, we don't run around bombing bars or putting every single person on the highway through a frickin' checkpoint. Americans overreact to certain losses, like terrorist acts or aborted children, and then ignore the poverty of the ghettos, look the other way when children are abused, show no concern about the high dropout rate in schools and otherwise prove that their concern for life is minimal. Except for unborn kids.

When the right figures out how to make the rest of life at least tolerable, then they can start demanding all beings get to live. As long as they are putting more effort into keeping so many people miserable, they haven't got a reason in the world to worry about the unborn as much as they do. Except that it makes them feel moral. Falsely.

[DumpsterFire]

Why is it that the people who are the most fervently opposed to abortion are usually equally opposed to sex education? I think you can't reasonably have it both ways. This is totally a head-in-the-sand approach.

What are you talking about, beating my wife?

MM, what AP is referring to is a catch-22 situation, you're screwed either way. I have always heard it phrased as a yes or no question: Have you stopped beating your wife? Try answering it and you'll understand the paradox.

[magicmiles]

The wife beating question, as I phrased it. Or similar.

I googled it. I noted DF coments also.

I understand the concept of a catch 22.

Um...yeah.

[DumpsterFire]

Why is it that the people who are the most fervently opposed to abortion are usually equally opposed to sex education? I think you can't reasonably have it both ways. This is totally a head-in-the-sand approach.

Further, why is it that these same people also tend to be the ones who most strongly support the death penalty? How anyone, let alone a decent percentage of the population, can espouse this particular triumvirate of opinions is beyond me.

[magicmiles]

I wouldn't want to fool with mother nature.

Good to hear.

Whether you're nine and you've been raped by your dad or you're 25 and you just lost your job and lost your insurance and your husband ran off and now you're pregnant and you don't have the sixteen grand to pay the hospital bill, you might have a reason to get an abortion.

Having a reason is not the same as it being a good, or the right thing to do.

Of course, if the right, who is so against abortion, would allow us to institute a nationalized medical plan so everyone was insured via their taxes, then there would automatically be fewer abortions because kids would be affordable.

Yes, I am glad to live in Australia where it is free to have a child ( in fact, we get paid to )

I'm against telling someone they have to have a child.

So am I. Apart from cases of rape, you don't have to have a child.

And don't go giving me the abstinence talk. Sex is fun, and to pretend otherwise is to ignore biology.

Absolutely. Get married and have all the sex you want. I've nothing against preventing pregnancy.

 And shit happens. And not always at good times.

The fact that you forgot to take the pill does not excuse killing a baby in the womb.

It's like 9/11. When 3,000 people get killed by terrorists (horrible, I agree), we head off to war. A war that kills over 6,000 of our own and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's and Afgans. Many innocent amongst them. But when we kill 3,000 a month of our own, half via drunk driving, on the highways, we don't run around bombing bars or putting every single person on the highway through a frickin' checkpoint. Americans overreact to certain losses, like terrorist acts or aborted children, and then ignore the poverty of the ghettos, look the other way when children are abused, show no concern about the high dropout rate in schools and otherwise prove that their concern for life is minimal. Except for unborn kids. 

As a Christian, I confirm that I have a very high regard for all life and do my best to protect it. Every Christian I know is the same. But I don't expect that to get in the way of your generalised, cynical viewpoint stated above.

[magicmiles]

PP, my response to you suggests that you tar all Christians with the same brush as rabid ultra right-wingers. I apologise for making this assumption.

[Ambassador Pony]

Mm, are you against animal experimentation?

[Azdgari]

" It's OK to kill a child in the womb when..."

Wait, how the hell did a child get put into a womb?  And would it even fit?  Seems a touch unrealistic to me.  Relevance?

[magicmiles]

Mm, are you against animal experimentation?

Perhaps give me some scenarios.

I certainly value human life above animal life.

[magicmiles]

" It's OK to kill a child in the womb when..."

Wait, how the hell did a child get put into a womb?  And would it even fit?  Seems a touch unrealistic to me.  Relevance?

Quite droll.

I'd +1 it if it wasn't a serious topic.

[Azdgari]

I did have a serious point.  To the best of my knowledge, your audience does not consider an embryo, a zygote, or a fetus to be a child.  You probably realized that, which brings up the question of why you were deliberately using words to mean things that you know your audence doesn't understand them to mean.

It would be similar to a devout Muslim asking a group of Christians why they are devoting their lives to evil.  To the Muslim's audience, the question is nonsense; they do not understand their lives to be devoted to evil.  That is something that is only true to the Muslim speaker.  If the Muslim knows that at the time of asking the question, then one has to wonder why (s)he chose to ask the question in that manner.

You have done something similar.  Why?

EDIT:  By the way, welcome back.  Addictive, huh?

[magicmiles]

Well, looking back I have referred to both fetus and child. Because I consider them the same, of course. Yes, clearly others on the site don't see it that way.

But isn't that sort of the point of a discussion forum, to put your point of view?

You'll notice I refer to Christian rather than x-ian also.

[One Above All]

" It's not OK to kill a child in the womb when..."

Done.
What you think of as a "child" is no more than a couple of cells that joined and multiplied, as cells do.[1] It shares human DNA, yes, but it is no more human than my hair. It can't think, it can't feel pain, it can't see... it can't experience anything. It's alive, yes, but then so is my hair and every bacteria on the food you eat and the drinks you drink and the ones your immune system kills every day. Each human will kill more cells in their lifetime than if we aborted every single fetus on this planet.
But let me guess what you're doing to say next:
"They're inferior because they're not human!"
How do you know they're not human? Have you looked at them? Each one will have two kids. You're killing entire families just because you couldn't keep your immune system under control. Some are even your own. Thanks to cloning, each cell you kill could become another person. Hell, it is a person. It's you.
What about the pigs, chicken, cow and other animals you eat? They're all dying because you couldn't go vegetarian. You just had to have meat. Oh, wait, they're not human, right?

Please note that everything after "But let me guess what you're doing to say next:" is me trying to explain why your logic is either stupid and/or why you're a hypocrite.

1.	Which is what some of the members tried to tell you, although in a subtle way.