A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer - Commentary Thread

[Asmoday]

Well, if they want to have Augusto that badly, let them have him. I think it is safe to say to say that people on this forum won't be in tears over the loss.

It's their own choice to add him to their rooster of theists. One more reason to stay clear of that forum. I look at it once every now and again and it usually takes me 10 minutes of reading theists' post the most outlandish preachy claims of whatever tickles them while mods stand idly by or one post of QuestionMark (whichever happens first) to remember why I don't like the place.

[monkeymind]

I started the debate in there right after this one was over, as I promised. So far I've got nothing but positive Karmas and I've been there the same person I've been here. You do the maths 12 positive Karma points vs zero negative karma points. It should give you something to think of. Because intolerance only hurts the very thing you're promoting in your post. Same for the way you're addresing to the other community.

Yea, it makes me think that you should be over there where you get positive strokes. I for one, prefer the hard honest truth. What the math tells me is that Karma at IGI and Darwins at WWGHA are nothing alike.

If by intolerance you are referring to me chastising stupidity, you don't have a clue what I am promoting. As for "addressing to the community" what the fuck are you talking about?

If you like other people kissing your ass. Go for it. I predict you won't learn a thing, but will continue to demand people respect your stupid ideas. I hope I'm wrong, but all the kindness in the world won't make you any smarter. If you don't learn critical thinking skills, you're doomed to a life of stupid. I for one am gonna call it as I see it. No candy coating.

[Augusto]

So you're angry and you're gonna say whatever you like and nobody will stop you, is that it?

[monkeymind]

So you're angry and you're gonna say whatever you like and nobody will stop you, is that it?

No not angry at all. However, freedom of speech is very dear to Americans, so you sure as hell don't have anything to say about it.

[ParkingPlaces]

So you're angry and you're gonna say whatever you like and nobody will stop you, is that it?

Note that we didn't stop you when you were angry and saying whatever you like. We would like to have, and had a civilized discussion, but your version of civilized differed from ours, so we couldn't do it.

You can take your ball and go home now.

[Ate The Ism]

So you're angry and you're gonna say whatever you like and nobody will stop you, is that it?

We should be asking you this question. The member have simply asked that if you make an assertion, back it up. I agree with what several members have posted; you have not taken the time to greet your audience or even learn the mutual respect that the active members of this forum share.

[Augusto]

Glad to know you're not angry monkeymind (don't take it as an insult, I'm just using your nick). Debate is over people (at least here), face it and move on.

[monkeymind]

Glad to know you're not angry monkeymind (don't take it as an insult, I'm just using your nick). Debate is over people (at least here), face it and move on.

Debate is not over people, but ideas. The sooner you get that, the better off you will be. If the Academy Awards wasn't on, I would have already moved on....

[Grogs]

Glad to know you're not angry monkeymind (don't take it as an insult, I'm just using your nick). Debate is over people (at least here), face it and move on.

Yes, you've told us that about 7 times now. I haven't seen anyone begging you to stay or tying you down here, and yet, here you are, back in the discussion thread for the debate you're not participating in anymore. I wish you well over at IGI, and I hope you're able to fit in there much better than you did here.

[jetson]

Well, if they want to have Augusto that badly, let them have him. I think it is safe to say to say that people on this forum won't be in tears over the loss.

It's their own choice to add him to their rooster of theists. One more reason to stay clear of that forum. I look at it once every now and again and it usually takes me 10 minutes of reading theists' post the most outlandish preachy claims of whatever tickles them while mods stand idly by or one post of QuestionMark (whichever happens first) to remember why I don't like the place.

Damn, you just reminded me of why I left IGI back in the day.  They seem to be going through an evolution, but I don't see it being anything dramatic enough to make it as fun as it could be.  I went back and started rolling with QM again, and when the subject of abortion came up, he went full loopy on me...

[Augusto]

Actually Jetson... you just lose a simple argument in there against me and another member. I suspect you like this comunity because in here you're free to do as you please, and to out-number believers, "winning" because of the agressive tactics.

[ParkingPlaces]

Augusto, you'd do well to quit here while you're behind.

[MadBunny]

I would like to take this moment to thank Augustus for not choosing me as the counterpart in this farce of a debate.
While I enjoy a good argument, I do not enjoy spending all my time wading through fallacies and hamfisted rewrites of better arguments.

As for the complaints that I see about being picked on, I suppose it probably feels that way, but it bears remembering that empirical evidence goes a long way.
So too does understanding what the term 'atheist' means in the first place.  Perhaps the smart way to start something like this debate would have been approaching it from an ignostic point of view, so as to define what the actual topic was to be about rather than a spamwall of re-postings.

As for my opinion of the debate proper:



If you'd like to discuss an actual topic, feel free to start one in the forums proper.  That, or feel free to move on to another forum where they have 'different' standards.

[Add Homonym]

I do agree part of the claim might not be as strong as it should, this is the best argument I was able to find to argue on favor of God's existence and I decided to post it all. Reason is, that I am not familiar with those fields, and I am not the right person to determine how strong they are. I hope we can get back to them at some point (both of us) and determine the validity of them individually; I say this because it is of my interest to come up to an honest result.

This is a quote from Augusto on IGI. As I said earlier, Augusto's refs were New Age waffle that nobody can argue against, because it has no meaning. His response to Moose is that he doesn't understand it either, so he then dumps it and proceeds onto philosophy.

Moose was more polite about saying it was complete garbage.

[jetson]

Actually Jetson... you just lose a simple argument in there against me and another member. I suspect you like this comunity because in here you're free to do as you please, and to out-number believers, "winning" because of the agressive tactics.

No Augusto, I did not lose anything at all.  I have been a member of both forums for many years.  And no, I do not get to "do as I please" at this forum.  You are completely misinformed, and no matter how many times you claim some victory, the membership can see it for what it is.

The most aggressive tactic I have seen since your arrival has been you, claiming that you are being persecuted.  Again, you came to an established forum, and started making demands.  That is not appropriate in most social settings, including online forums.  And as you can see, in my replies to you on both forums, I am not being aggressive at all.

This forum is different.  You cannot post unsupported assertions and expect members to accept it.  It's that simple.

[jaimehlers]

Actually Jetson... you just lose a simple argument in there against me and another member. I suspect you like this comunity because in here you're free to do as you please, and to out-number believers, "winning" because of the agressive tactics.

First off, people aren't free to do as they please here.  Your biggest problem is that you chose really ineffective and immature ways to express your dissatisfaction with the treatment you were receiving here.  Because of those methods, you confirmed the attitudes of other people, creating a situation that fed on itself.  I won't say that you were completely wrong, but I will say that you bear much of the blame for the way things turned out here.

It'd be nice if everyone were perfectly civil.  But I know, for a fact, that you will not cause people to be civil to you by demanding it.  You can only convince them to be civil by showing that you're civil yourself, and thus deserving of being treated civilly.  It's not fair, but complaining about that won't change anything and it generally makes the situation worse.  I've gotten in some pretty rough arguments with people here, but so far I have only received two negative Darwins.  One of which was from you, for being "off-topic", and the other was from joebbowers for a "strawman argument".  Neither were justified in my opinion, but I did not complain about getting them (nor am I now, because I don't have the right to dictate other people's opinions of me).  Aside from that, I've earned 73 positive Darwins.  This despite the fact that I have gotten in numerous disagreements and even a few knock-down, drag-out fights with people.  And the reason is because I support what I say, write it in my own words, and always, always treat others with the kind of civility I expect from them.  If I get told that I'm doing something wrong, I will at least go think about it.  And if I come to the conclusion that they're right, I'm not ashamed to admit it and try to modify my behavior in the future.

People here don't expect perfection.  They just expect you to be a decent human being who doesn't complain and whine because you aren't treated with kid gloves, who considers what people say, and who can make your own arguments in your own words.  It's no more complicated than that.

[bertatberts]

Glad to know you're not angry monkeymind (don't take it as an insult, I'm just using your nick). Debate is over people (at least here), face it and move on.

So Lucifer won, you've backed down. Well we did know you were bound to lose. So ok bye.

[One Above All]

So Lucifer won, you've backed down. Well we did know you were bound to lose. So ok bye.

No, no, no! I lost, because I said that a website (completely unrelated to his argument) was stupid! That completely invalidates any and all counter-arguments I put forth!!!

[bertatberts]

So Lucifer won, you've backed down. Well we did know you were bound to lose. So ok bye.

No, no, no! I lost, because I said that a website (completely unrelated to his argument) was stupid! That completely invalidates any and all counter-arguments I put forth!!!

Yeh, I can relate to that, if you had said one of mine was stupid, I would have crucified you.(I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I'd need to be religious to kill you.) 

[Quesi]

I just continue to be flabbergasted that Augusto challenged someone to a debate, and then PLAGIARIZED his opening statement.  I have seen ID advocates copy and paste, or refer to links or suggest reading lists in the past, because few of them seem to be able to regurgitate this pseudo scientific drivel in their own words.  Beyond the “nothing can come from nothing (except for God)” and “look at how complex and beautiful nature is” arguments, and an occasional head-scratching reference to Occam’s razor, no one, it seems can successfully paraphrase this foolishness. 

But that doesn’t seem important to followers of the ID movement.  You don’t need to understand it.  An authority has claimed that it is true, using big words and arguments that only the scientifically literate could challenge.  So it must be true!  And quoting the words of that authority is an easy next step.  They have already learned to quote the words of another set of “authorities’ who wrote the words set forth in the scriptures. 

I guess Augusto doesn’t even think he was being intellectually dishonest by copying and pasting the words of an “authority.”  Learning to quote words that you don’t really understand it part of any religious education.   

When confronted with his own plagiarism, it seems that Augusto wasn’t even embarrassed, or aware that he had done anything intellectually dishonest.  In fact, he countered by sarcastically asking if Lucifer “discovered his arguments by himself,” implying that each was using an equally valid methodology.   

[changeling]

Learning to quote words that you don’t really understand it part of any religious education.

Augusto hasn't even learned how to do that. He did not know any specific verses in the bible because he said that
he read it as a harmonious flowing book, or something like that.   

[HAL]

Augusto

    Student
    **
    Posts: 71
    Darwins +2/-10

I'm willing to do a Dawin/Karma exchange with any forum that wants him. He's earned +2 and -10 Darwins. Since our Darwins are worth ~17 of any other forum's Karma, I can transfer +34 and -170 to his other forum account. All he had to do is get the other forum Admin to ask for them.

[jaimehlers]

Somehow, I don't think he'll be all that interested in asking.  Never know, though.  It might be a good way for him to "prove" how awfully we were persecuting him.

[monkeymind]

If you like other people kissing your ass. Go for it. I predict you won't learn a thing, but will continue to demand people respect your stupid ideas. I hope I'm wrong, but all the kindness in the world won't make you any smarter.

Wow! was I wrong!

Re: Moose vs Augusto On God Comment thread
« Reply #48 on: Today at 02:08:20 PM »
Okay, I've read more and I believe evolution to be enough to explain everything related to life. Nevertheless, my point about human nature being driven to the supernatural is still pending.

I'll edit my response in the debate. Thanks Argyle.

[Augusto]

Actually the debate ended, this member Argyle, sort of took the place and refused my arguments. Under the simplest rules of civility I was able to understand theists have no weight at all to sustain their claims, and that believing in God is absurd.

Not thanks to this community however, you should learn some education.

[jaimehlers]

If it was that simple, Augusto, religion would have died out a long, long time ago.

If you take nothing else away from your experience here, understand this at least:  Civility goes both ways.  The fact that you aren't treated civilly is no excuse to treat others with incivility (and while you weren't actively rude, you certainly were irritatingly uncivil in how you came across), or to complain because you aren't (as you did, a number of times).  You are not responsible for the actions of others, but you are responsible for your own, and you need to understand that your own actions were not above reproach.

Take how you just posted.  "Not thanks to this community however, you should learn some education."  How is anyone supposed to take that but a taunting comment, akin to "see, I told you so?"  That is not civil.  If you had acted here with the same sort of civility you expected from others, instead of demanding it as your right and then getting upset when you didn't get it, then things would have turned out differently.

[HAL]

Actually the debate ended, this member Argyle, sort of took the place and refused my arguments. Under the simplest rules of civility I was able to understand theists have no weight at all to sustain their claims, and that believing in God is absurd.

So now you are an atheist. Just like that.

I'd like to see this person called Argyle go into a Christian forum and perform his magic. Let us know which Christian forum he joins so I can read along, I'd like to learn his techniques.

[monkeymind]

Actually the debate ended, this member Argyle, sort of took the place and refused my arguments. Under the simplest rules of civility I was able to understand theists have no weight at all to sustain their claims, and that believing in God is absurd.

Not thanks to this community however, you should learn some education.

Or, maybe good cop, bad cop really is a good strategy. We tag-teamed ya! Auggy!

Now that I think about it. Augusto has this need to be accepted, and so being an atheist or a theist doesn't really matter at all.

[monkeymind]

Actually the debate ended, this member Argyle, sort of took the place and refused my arguments. Under the simplest rules of civility I was able to understand theists have no weight at all to sustain their claims, and that believing in God is absurd.

So now you are an atheist. Just like that.

I'd like to see this person called Argyle go into a Christian forum and perform his magic. Let us know which Christian forum he joins so I can read along, I'd like to learn his techniques.

After asking two or three questions about morality of Argyle, Augusto is writing/reading? 2 books and...

Augusto:

I'm going to do some work in the construction of a universal moral code, after I finish my two first books. It shouldn't be hard.