Author Topic: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer - Commentary Thread  (Read 9404 times)

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Offline RNS

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Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer - Commentary Thread
« Reply #116 on: February 26, 2012, 02:10:31 PM »
RNS: Find your own examples man, if you like.

I asked you to give me the examples because the reactions you had to the posts are subjective, i.e. you interpret them differently to how I do. So basically what I'm getting at is that I've already read all of the posts and found none that matched your description. I wanted you to point out what parts are offending you/making you feel bullied or excluded so that I could gain some (of your) perspective. I'm just trying to help you, but if you don't want it, that's fine.


I just read half of the first page of that other thread you pointed me to and I stopped there because I have to say, I'm not surprised you got so much negative karma. Lucifer gave a perfectly acceptable, civil response to the OP and then you just got mad and lashed out because it wasn't going the way you wanted or expected.
I wish I read that thread first, then I wouldn't have invested so much time into this one. I should have know you'd never finish the debate.
Here you seemed fairly reasonable, that you had the goal of coming to some kind of mutual conclusion in search for the truth- something I can relate to and respect.
From the other thread I have learned that clearly you are unable to accept and process new information. Rather than addressing the issues raised you just sulked, crossed your arms and said this isn't what I wanted to talk about. TOUGH. If you want to come to a mutual conclusions you can't both start on different premises. Just because you believe something and take it for granted doesn't mean others do. I think you have been guilty of many of the things you have accused others of.
love and truth and love of truth

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer - Commentary Thread
« Reply #117 on: February 26, 2012, 02:10:45 PM »
jaimehlers: Is there a believer in this comunity? just tell me that. And I disagree, I can also leave.
OldChurchGuy, riley2112, possibly TruthOT (I know he was a believer, I'm not sure what his status is now).  I'm sure there's others, but I don't know more than a couple dozen or so members from John Doe.

And yes.  You can leave.  I'm sure there's quite a few people here who wouldn't mind seeing your backside either.  I don't care that much either way.  My advice was for your benefit.  Life is about dealing with people who you may not much like, and you're not going to succeed in it if you insist on getting offended at people who aren't as civil to you as you think they should be, or if you insist that any problems must be because of other people, rather than because things you did which provoked them.

To paraphrase something I read a while back, most people are accustomed to thinking well of themselves because their lives are pretty predictable, so they can polish their reactions well.  It's how they react when they're taken out of that comfort zone that really determines their measure.
Worldviews:  Everyone has one, everyone believes them to be an accurate view of the world, and everyone ends up at least partially wrong.  However, some worldviews are stronger and well-supported, while others are so bizarre that they make no sense to anyone else.

Offline bertatberts

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Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer - Commentary Thread
« Reply #118 on: February 26, 2012, 02:12:23 PM »
Quote from: Augusto
Okay, I'll start.

There are 4 primary attribute that describe what God would be. If any of these attributes are found in one force, then we can continue on, to see if God is real.

These 4 primary attributes are:

1) Eternal, not involved with the flow of our time.
2) Omnipresent, found everywhere.
3) Omnipotent, all powerful.
4) Omniscient, having all knowledge.
Augusto, you have refuted your own argument in the first paragraph, it's not that we don't understand your arguments, but that you don't understand the rebuttals.

"Eternal, not involved with the flow of our time." if it is not involved with the flow of time then you are saying it doesn't exist.
If you cannot present evidence of something existing outside of time you are special pleading.

What evidence do you have of omnipresent, if you cannot provide evidence that such a thing exists you are special pleading.

What evidence do you have of omnipotent, if you cannot provide evidence that such a thing exists you are special pleading.

What evidence do you have of omniscient, if you cannot provide evidence that such a thing exists you are special pleading.
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Offline monkeymind

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Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer - Commentary Thread
« Reply #119 on: February 26, 2012, 02:15:09 PM »
So Augusto is having the same debate with Ricky on IGI and the title of the debate is "Spiritual atheist moose debates Augusto." Not crying about the title tho, so maybe it will go better than this one. And here at the same time.

Good Luck! Augusto!
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline bgb

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Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer - Commentary Thread
« Reply #120 on: February 26, 2012, 02:18:21 PM »
When you don't show evidence why your position is correct we can't believe you.  Very simple.
Nothing unreal exists.

Offline wright

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Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer - Commentary Thread
« Reply #121 on: February 26, 2012, 02:23:48 PM »
Augusto, you were so lost I almost felt sorry for you. Your religion and other life experiences have clearly not prepared you very well for dealing with reality.

One lesson you might try to take from this experience is that how you've felt on this forum is how a lot of atheists feel in everyday life. We are confronted on a daily basis (at least in the US) with beliefs that make no sense to us and that permeate social venues, education, politics and even civil law.

This forum is a new thing to you: a community where atheists are the majority. I know you don't believe it, but this place is a pretty level playing field. The same rules apply to all, though the mods are human, not gods, and therefore not omniscient and omnipresent.

That said, there is an inherent advantage in atheism vs. theism that is most apparent here: there is, at present, no evidence of a god or gods. And here, the basic forum rules insist on backing up your claims with evidence if you want them accepted.

You failed to do so, as has every other theist here, even the ones that are accepted and respected.

Jetson: Just point me at ONE member who have not been dragged to your beliefs and have some good reputation and activity for a decent time and I'll accept you're not an agressive, hostile, arbitrary comunity and apologize, otherwise, stop making up lies.

OldChurchGuy, riley2112, even magicmiles; all believers. I often don't agree with them, but they do have my respect.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
--Marcus Aurelius

Offline RNS

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Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer - Commentary Thread
« Reply #122 on: February 26, 2012, 02:30:37 PM »
So Augusto is having the same debate with Ricky on IGI and the title of the debate is "Spiritual atheist moose debates Augusto." Not crying about the title tho, so maybe it will go better than this one. And here at the same time.

Good Luck! Augusto!

Yeah, good luck!
Can you link this new debate please? I'm very curious to see how much debating he manages to get done there.
love and truth and love of truth

Offline monkeymind

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Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer - Commentary Thread
« Reply #123 on: February 26, 2012, 02:31:58 PM »
So Augusto is having the same debate with Ricky on IGI and the title of the debate is "Spiritual atheist moose debates Augusto." Not crying about the title tho, so maybe it will go better than this one. And here at the same time.

Good Luck! Augusto!

Yeah, good luck!
Can you link this new debate please? I'm very curious to see how much debating he manages to get done there.

http://isgodimaginary.com/forum/index.php/topic,50279.0.html#top
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline sun_king

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Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer - Commentary Thread
« Reply #124 on: February 26, 2012, 02:34:22 PM »
SSDF[1]


[1] Same Sh** Different Forum

Offline shnozzola

Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer - Commentary Thread
« Reply #125 on: February 26, 2012, 02:36:10 PM »
Actually, Augusto, we lost the debate.  If our purpose is to (and it must be) change the way people on this planet judge each other, so we stop shitting on each others views, I'm worried that we haven't stopped you from disrespecting ours, so we lost.
The irony is with freewill.  Atheism realizes we don't have it, while the fundamentals of theism demand it but don't want it.

Offline jetson

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Offline Grogs

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Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer - Commentary Thread
« Reply #127 on: February 26, 2012, 02:38:28 PM »
Seeing as how it's a word-for-word copy and paste of his argument here, I suspect it won't go well. He'll be complaining that his opponent didn't reply in exactly the manner that he was supposed to, or that the font size on the forum is somehow mocking him before too long.

Offline One Above All

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Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer - Commentary Thread
« Reply #128 on: February 26, 2012, 02:38:46 PM »
Moreover, just think of the meaning of Lucifer and I. Think if that's what you want for you and your loved ones. A nick that represents everything that is evil and dirty, no matter what the bible says, Lucifer means evil, and this person uses that nick because atheists have NO RULES, no moral stablished and accepted, and it's not just his nick, but also the way he thinks and acts.

You don't know the meaning of my nickname[1], so don't even try to understand it. The only one who knows it is me and me alone.
EDIT: Asmoday already explained what the name "Lucifer" means, so I didn't feel the need to point it out a second time.

To him I am trash, my arguments are trash, and we, believers are inferior.

No life form is trash to me. Your arguments are, but not you. And don't even get me started on believers. I'll have you know that three of my former romantic partners were believers, and I loved each and every one of them more than you can comprehend. Believers are not trash or inferior because of their beliefs. It's their actions and intentions that dictate who they are.
 1. Id est: Why I chose it.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2012, 02:47:49 PM by Lucifer »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline monkeymind

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Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer - Commentary Thread
« Reply #129 on: February 26, 2012, 02:41:14 PM »
Actually, Augusto, we lost the debate.  If our purpose is to (and it must be) change the way people on this planet judge each other, so we stop shitting on each others views, I'm worried that we haven't stopped you from disrespecting ours, so we lost.

Who is "our?"
I'm not sure where you are coming from. If you are referring to this forum, I don't think that is the purpose at all. Could you point to a mission statement or something that states this is the purpose?
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline MadBunny

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Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer - Commentary Thread
« Reply #130 on: February 26, 2012, 02:49:21 PM »

People have the ability to believe, to follow, and no atheist can avoid being like that. It is present since the beginning of humanity, in every culture. People just "believe in something", so what do I have to say to your beliefs, to your faith? if such "religion" were to take over, world would become anarchy. That's what I think. We need a moral code, and atheists cannot offer that, they cannot even make people free from believing, they will, instead, turn to atheism as their new faith and find it have no system, therefore, anarchy will reign.


Just out of interest, did this forum ever get a good apologist who had something on his/her own?

Is Augusto speaking of the moral code that defines how to treat your slaves, how to punish them, when to sell your daughters, when to trade the virginity of your daughters to protect two strangers?

Every now and then we get somebody who's reasonably able to follow a coherent argument.
Generally speaking though, we tend to get a repetition of various ontological and teleological arguments.

It looks like Augustus was rather ham-fistedly trying to make use of the Kalaam Cosmological Argument (KCA).

I don't remember when it was, but a while back Kcrady had a debate on the topic of the KCA, it's well worth reading.
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline monkeymind

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Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer - Commentary Thread
« Reply #131 on: February 26, 2012, 03:02:44 PM »
Augusto:

I have to disagree with Shnozzola. I'm sure that people have their own reasons for being here. However, atheists are not an organized group, therefore there is no "our" purpose for atheists. We simply do not believe in a God or gods.

While it may be some persons goal to not want people shitting on others beliefs, I do not think it is the purpose of this forum to get that message across. I do not presume to speak for anyone but myself when I say this. This is my interpretation based upon the following:


What does the forum say about its purpose?

Members should consider the primary focus of the Forum, which is to provide a discussion area
for the site owner's book "Why Won't God Heal Amputees?" and tailor their suggestions accordingly.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,17162.0.html

The main site says this:

Since we are intelligent human beings living in the 21st century, we should take the time to
look at some data. That is what we are doing when we ask, "Why won't God heal amputees?"
http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com/

The main site asks this question:
 
This prompts a question: What if rational, intelligent human beings begin uniting together to
help heal the delusion and make our world a better place? It is an intriguing thought. There
would be many benefits.
http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com/join-us.htm

« Last Edit: February 26, 2012, 03:05:40 PM by monkeymind »
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline changeling

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Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer - Commentary Thread
« Reply #132 on: February 26, 2012, 03:23:30 PM »
There should be some way to verify that a poster is over ten years old before
setting up a debate with them.
The level of dumb they have to sell, is only made remotely possible by the level of flocking their sheep are willing to do in the name of rewards for no thought. quote: Kin Hell

"Faith is the enemy of evidence, for when we know the truth, no faith is required." Graybeard

Offline Ate The Ism

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Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer - Commentary Thread
« Reply #133 on: February 26, 2012, 03:38:02 PM »
If there were any evidence for Christianity, or any decent arguments, or even a mediocre chance that god exists, I would not be a gnostic atheist. The current understanding of the world far outweighs any theist explanation.

This is a direct reference to the arguments of Augusto asking atheists if he were to destroy atheist claims would we then believe or abandon our current belief system. My answer is, for me personally, yes. However, the reality is that Augusto cannot destroy claims made by Lucifer or several other atheists on this forum.
God is the Ultimate Boeing 747

Offline shnozzola

Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer - Commentary Thread
« Reply #134 on: February 26, 2012, 04:58:18 PM »
Who is "our?"
I'm not sure where you are coming from. If you are referring to this forum, I don't think that is the purpose at all. Could you point to a mission statement or something that states this is the purpose?

Sorry, Monkeymind, I should not have intended my statement to mean this forum.  I meant that we all lose in general if a debate fails to bring people closer.  After what continues to go on around the world, maybe I'm too depressed , hoping that civilization progresses, I’m trying to say people in general need to stand in each other’s shoes and realize how many different  views we have concerning so many things.  I may be too much of an idealist.
You said it better with :
Quote
What if rational, intelligent human beings begin uniting together to
help heal the delusion and make our world a better place? It is an intriguing thought. There
would be many benefits.
The irony is with freewill.  Atheism realizes we don't have it, while the fundamentals of theism demand it but don't want it.

Offline monkeymind

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Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer - Commentary Thread
« Reply #135 on: February 26, 2012, 05:08:22 PM »
Who is "our?"
I'm not sure where you are coming from. If you are referring to this forum, I don't think that is the purpose at all. Could you point to a mission statement or something that states this is the purpose?

Sorry, Monkeymind, I should not have intended my statement to mean this forum.  I meant that we all lose in general if a debate fails to bring people closer.  After what continues to go on around the world, maybe I'm too depressed , hoping that civilization progresses, I’m trying to say people in general need to stand in each other’s shoes and realize how many different  views we have concerning so many things.  I may be too much of an idealist.
You said it better with :
Quote
What if rational, intelligent human beings begin uniting together to
help heal the delusion and make our world a better place? It is an intriguing thought. There
would be many benefits.

No need to apologize. I feel you, There are times when I wonder if I am talking to my own brother or someone that I love. It really makes me sad at times, even sick to my stomach when I say harsh things to another person in the forum. I try to say it in a funny way, and I feel chastising is warranted, but at the same time, I don't really like it. Early in this thread when talking to Augusto, I asked if he was Persian because he said "thanks God." My Persian friend says that a lot.

Healing the delusion is my ultimate goal in getting into these discussions.
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline monkeymind

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Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer - Commentary Thread
« Reply #136 on: February 26, 2012, 05:25:18 PM »
OK, maybe a little house cleaning is in order. Or maybe I'm just taking this wrong... But I got to say something and get it off of my chest.

IGI has members that go back and forth between the forum there and the forum here. I'm a member of both, but I don't participate or even check out the "other guys" very often. I just recognized one member here and suspected some courting going on with Augusto. (You know me getting questioned (and smited about my interaction with Augusto) and Augusto getting plused for his first debate post. I went over yonder to see what was going on when Augusto said " I'm invited to another forum where people play nice so if you won't be nice, I'm  leaving." I noticed Augusto got 10 Plus ones at the other place.

Did Augusto get played by Mooston? Is this some kind of tag team debate scheme, or did Lucifer get his opponent pulled out from underneath him unfairly? I mean they can have him if they want him that bad, but geesh seems pretty desperate to come cull our flock. Couldn't it have at least waited until the debate was over.
 
I don't like it. But that's just me. [/gripe]



Edit name
« Last Edit: February 26, 2012, 05:58:06 PM by monkeymind »
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Online Azdgari

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Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer - Commentary Thread
« Reply #137 on: February 26, 2012, 05:28:19 PM »
I noticed that, too, but since I don't visit IGI I had no idea that he'd moved over there.  WTF is wrong with those folks?
Unless you are Scarlett Johansason or something.  lol  i'd like to punish her with  my baby.  lol

Offline Tero

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Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer - Commentary Thread
« Reply #138 on: February 26, 2012, 05:34:42 PM »
Anyone ever meet this elusive "good apologist" (theist)?

Offline Ate The Ism

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Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer - Commentary Thread
« Reply #139 on: February 26, 2012, 05:42:11 PM »
Anyone ever meet this elusive "good apologist" (theist)?
No
God is the Ultimate Boeing 747

Offline monkeymind

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Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer - Commentary Thread
« Reply #140 on: February 26, 2012, 05:45:49 PM »
I noticed that, too, but since I don't visit IGI I had no idea that he'd moved over there.  WTF is wrong with those folks?

Yeah they have a few of our "rejects." I only set up an account over there because I was asked to by PM a year or two ago. I didn't mind being asked, but I just don't feel at home over there. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline jetson

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Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer - Commentary Thread
« Reply #141 on: February 26, 2012, 06:09:43 PM »
I noticed that, too, but since I don't visit IGI I had no idea that he'd moved over there.  WTF is wrong with those folks?

New posters typically get +1's for joining.  It's the forums way of welcoming newcomers, although they assume positive intent without knowing the new member.  That's not inherently bad, but I don't see the value in using the Karma system that way.  To me, it should be used for quality posts, as well as to point out posts that don't cut the mustard.

I know that ricky invited Augusto to IGI for a debate, but I don't think there was any ill intent, other than to possibly show Augusto they have a friendlier membership.  I would argue though, that Augusto burst onto the WWGHA scene and immediately played the persecution card, before getting to know the members, and getting a feel for how things are done.  If Augusto gets a better vibe at IGI, perhaps he is better off over there.

Our general policy of backing up assertions that go beyond opinion is not an easy pill to swallow for many theists.

Offline voodoo child

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Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer - Commentary Thread
« Reply #142 on: February 26, 2012, 06:19:08 PM »
To be perfectly honest with you Augusto. I posted a video out sheer laziness much like you did, I knew it would be a waste of time to reason with you. As other forum members have taken a great deal of time to converse with you. kudos for the patients they have taken, but you are not interested in listening to reason. I am willing to bet that you did not watch it anyway.

 you're wishful thinking does not belong on the shelf with my reason, it belongs on the other shelf next to peter pan.
The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow, you are not understanding yourself. Truth has no path. Truth is living and therefore changing. Bruce lee

Offline Augusto

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Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer - Commentary Thread
« Reply #143 on: February 26, 2012, 07:09:47 PM »
OK, maybe a little house cleaning is in order. Or maybe I'm just taking this wrong... But I got to say something and get it off of my chest.

IGI has members that go back and forth between the forum there and the forum here. I'm a member of both, but I don't participate or even check out the "other guys" very often. I just recognized one member here and suspected some courting going on with Augusto. (You know me getting questioned (and smited about my interaction with Augusto) and Augusto getting plused for his first debate post. I went over yonder to see what was going on when Augusto said " I'm invited to another forum where people play nice so if you won't be nice, I'm  leaving." I noticed Augusto got 10 Plus ones at the other place.

Did Augusto get played by Mooston? Is this some kind of tag team debate scheme, or did Lucifer get his opponent pulled out from underneath him unfairly? I mean they can have him if they want him that bad, but geesh seems pretty desperate to come cull our flock. Couldn't it have at least waited until the debate was over.
 
I don't like it. But that's just me. [/gripe]



Edit name

I started the debate in there right after this one was over, as I promised. So far I've got nothing but positive Karmas and I've been there the same person I've been here. You do the maths 12 positive Karma points vs zero negative karma points. It should give you something to think of. Because intolerance only hurts the very thing you're promoting in your post. Same for the way you're addresing to the other community.

Offline HAL

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Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer - Commentary Thread
« Reply #144 on: February 26, 2012, 07:13:20 PM »
Augusto,

We have Darwins here. They aren't equivalent to Karmas. 1 Darwin is equal to ~17 Karmas on other forums.