Author Topic: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer  (Read 3011 times)

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Offline HAL

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A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer
« on: February 25, 2012, 05:41:19 PM »
Please start your debate on the topic you wish. All comments from the peanut gallery should be in the associated commentary thread on this board.

Offline One Above All

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Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2012, 06:41:02 PM »
Well, I already had a simple argument posted on the other thread, so I'll start with that before I go to sleep.

The only unambiguous material referring to the god of the Bible (YHWH) is the Bible itself.
The Bible is supposed to be the perfect word of YHWH, according to itself and most believers.
The Bible contains a myriad of errors. Some are inconsistencies with itself, others are inconsistencies with reality.
Ergo, there are only two logical conclusions, although they both lead to the same final conclusion.
Conclusion A: YHWH doesn't exist.
Conclusion B: YHWH is fallible, and therefore does not exist as described in the Bible (and for all purposes and effects isn't YHWH, as YHWH is the god described in the Bible).
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline Augusto

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Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2012, 06:59:26 PM »
Okay, I'll start.

There are 4 primary attribute that describe what God would be. If any of these attributes are found in one force, then we can continue on, to see if God is real.

These 4 primary attributes are:

1) Eternal, not involved with the flow of our time.
2) Omnipresent, found everywhere.
3) Omnipotent, all powerful.
4) Omniscient, having all knowledge.

If God is proven to exist, then we must find a force that is eternal. If such force cannot be found, then God's existence cannot be proven. If all primary atributes are found in one force it might help to prove God CAN exist.

Heisenberg came to the conclusion that quantum events cannot be predicted. All freed electrons behave as if they are being influenced by an outside variable or force, uncertainty principle.

In "Signal Travels Father And Faster Than Light", by Malcom W. Browne, a force was found conecting two freed electrons and proven to be eternal, was present within our time, yet was not involved with the flow of our time. This eternal force connects with all freed electrons. Every particle that releases energy connects to this eternal force.

Everything that is beyond our solar system that is visible is made of stars, which all release freed electrons, light, radiation, etc. This shows this force to also be omnipresent, everywhere in the universe. Simple enough.

In experiments by Russian scientists, they found at http://www.quantumbalancing.com/news/russian_dna.htm that laser photons knew when a DNA molecule was added into the vacoom. The photons/electrons collected around the DNA strand and began to change the order of the DNA, changing it to what it desired (Evolution?). After the DNA was removed and the laser turned off the excess photons remained in the position resembling the DNA for over 22 minutes.

The easiest way to prove this force is omnipotent: by our eyes we see everything to be so complex, complex enviroments, complex galaxies and the complexity of nature and life itself. If this force created everything from nothing, seeing energy cannot be created, shows this force to be omnipotent (taking into consideration the imposibility of such word, this should be good enough to understand its meaning in the bible.

Visual evidence is seen in the distance of stars and galaxies across the universe. Acording to the first law of thermodinamycs energy cannot be created or destroyed. Then where did all the energy in our universe came from? Does it have anything to do with this same force being timeless?

The force was able to use freed electrons to manipulate DNA, showing what this force can do on a tiny scale. What could this force do to freed electrons on a large scale? Is the universe expanding from dark matter or this eternal force?

Since the universe is full of freed electrons, I can only imagine what this force could do if used all freed electrons to work as one single entity.

This data implies that all freed electrons in combination or as a collective to be Omnipotent. I say implies because this was never observed but is evident from the size and distance of galaxies that can be seen across the universe. Plus, in the double slit experiment, light, a freed electron, showed it was observant of its surroundings. It knew when it was being watched and knew when it was not. It showed a simple means of intelligence by reacting to visual stimuli.

The first bit of evidence that showed this force to be omniscient is the STI (Self Thinking Interface), device created by Physicist Roger Vogelsang, which PROVED that there is ultimate knowledge in the force that connects all freed electrons, therefore this force knows everything (omniscient).

http://www.zimbio.com/Quantum+Mechanics/articles/M4S2kk7xYMu/There+four+primary+attributes+desribes+GOD

http://lordanthonyhorton.blogspot.com.au/2010/05/there-are-four-primary-attributes-that.html

So, let's recap:

1) ETERNAL: The twin photon experiment found photons, freed electrons to be connected to this force. Nothing can go faster than light except for this one force. This force is found to be everywhere in our universe's past, present and future, which we call time, as time doesn't exist to this force.
2) OMNIPRESENT: This force connects to all freed electrons in our universe. Freed electrons are created when matter is converted into energy. This force is everywhere, even beyond our universe.
3) OMNIPOTENT: We find galaxies at the furthest reaches of the universe, not hot gas, which was first theorized, but old galaxies. How can the light be reaching us and show old galaxies at the furthest extents of the universe? If light have a speed limit, then how did distant galaxies form long before the universe was said to have begun? This force again shows its timeless quality.
4) OMNISCIENT: Physicist Roger Vogelsang found with his STI device that not only could this force communicate but it could read thoughts and knew al things in the past and future. The STI device showed this force to have all knowledge of everything past, present and future. This device was consistent of 4 main components: a radioactive particle (AM-241) that releases freed electrons randomly, a geiger counter to detect those freed electrons, a KVM switch used to relay the signal into a computer, and a computer using a random character generator to send output to a CTR or monitor. Sounds simple right? Yes, simple enough to prove the final atribute is GOD that connects all freed electrons in the universe.

Is intelligent, timeless and can read throughts with astounding accuracy.

CONCLUSION: If there is "something" with such properties, one can also conclude that God's existence is totally possible.
----

"Those who deny the experimental results are denying scientific evidence. Why would my colleagues claim the universe is one consciousness if it were not discovered?"

youtube.com/watch?v=2V6SaBflpiM

Dr. Amit Goswami on the universal consciousness called God.

See the Unified Field theory and Universal Consciousness. The discovery of the 5th Generation computer by Vogelsang in 1982 was evidence to this single intelligent all knowing consciousness. The universe is alive, self aware. All things are a portion of this consciousness which gives life to the universe. The Great Omniscient Designer(GOD). Designer because this consciousness is self aware.

ezinearticles.com/?Conscious-Particles,-Fields-and-Waves&id=546242

youtube.com/watch?v=J9vnB9icFk8&NR=1
Observer Effect: Consciousness effects outcome of random number experiments, Princeton University

youtube.com/watch?v=OrcWntw9juM
John Hagelin, Ph.D quotes
1: "Modern quantum physics, Molecular Biology's Neuroimmunology, they both say that we do create our own realities"

2: "The consciousness is not created by the brain. It's not purely the outcome of molecular, chemical processes in the brain but is fundamental in nature. It's the very core of nature called the Unified Field or Superstring theory."

3: "The Unified Field is a non material field filled with consciousness."

4: "It is a single field of intelligence."

5: "There is only one consciousness in this room."

6: "The universe is conscious at it's basis."

7: "A concentrated field of intelligence in nature, non material, dynamic, SELF AWARE intelligence. Those are the properties of the unified field."

Click more info for links that lead to scientific data which shows evidence that God does Exist.
http://www.nytimes.com/1997/07/22/science/far-apart-2-particles-respond-faste...
http://www.cebaf.gov/news/internet/1997/spooky.html
Signal Travels Farther and Faster Than Light
By Malcolm W. Browne, July 22, 1997

http://ktsorg.wordpress.com/
Roger G. Vogelsang's Journal

youtube.com/watch?v=0CBtAUg69pg
Complexity of life in Intelligent Design

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32698085/ns/technology_and_science-space/t/most-d...
Tomotsugu finds galaxy 12.8 billion light years away:

--------

An email letter response from physicist Fred Alan Wolf Ph.D.

"First of all the "force" is not a real force--it doesn't push or pull on anything. It is a correlation--a meaningful connection between the particles that are entangled in the sense that an observation of one the partners causes the other partner to take on a value that before the observation occurred was not determined. It's unlike anything we ordinarily see in the everyday world. According to quantum physics the two partner are entangled after they interact, however the actual value of any particular attribute remains unobserved and indeterminate. Even though the two partners are no longer in interaction with each other, observation of one the partners instantly changes the other partner. For more read my books Taking the Quantum Leap, Parallel Universes, and Mind into Matter.
It is not any more evidence of God than any other fact of life is.
They all are evidence of God."

As you can see, there is evidence that God does indeed exist.

Newtonian law, if you don't apply a force it doesn't move.

Quote by Roger G. Vogelsang
`We can thank God for the coming mental paradigm shift, even the bloodshed it brings to get things restarted correctly with a Self thinking interfacing device directly to God!'
Research Fifth generation computer with artificial intelligence. It was discovered by Vogelsang in the early 80's and he called the device a Self Thinking Interface or STI device.

Vogelsang claimed this action to be the self aware consciousness of God. Other physicists chickened out & called it a universal consciousness.

---

Reply to Lucifer's argument:

This debate is NOT about the veracity of the content of the bible, but about the existence or non existence of God. So, your arguments are legit, and all kind of arguments are valid, just remember that by disproving some parts of the bible you will not win this.

I am aware of a huge amount of evil things written in the bible, not to mention errors and contradictions. The bible also says the Jews were evildoers, people who several times turned their hearts to other gods, people who ignored God's commands and so on. So I believe (and this is corroborated) the bible have been manipulated and its content changed over the years, furthermore I consider even when it was written, a lot of things were included for human / particular reasons, and those things were not part of God's actions or will.

This have happened even from the beginning, by the hands of the Jewish people, yes, even the Jews, but not only them; every single religion have done modifications to the bible with different reasons.

Asfor the specific point on the Jews, here is part of an article I found using Google:

"Before the days of the print, Bibles were copied in handwriting by scribes. They were organized in a guild that in the centuries before Jesus became part of a well known political party: the Pharisees. Eventually, they became the Talmudic rabbis we see today. This method was not only cumbersome and expensive, but it also created room for errors; actually all modern Hebrew Bibles carry with them unfixed errors. Typographical errors which couldn't be validated with an older version were left as they were, testimony to the care of the scribes. However, this method also allowed creating intentional manipulations of the text for political reasons. The old copies would eventually deteriorate beyond recognition and the new ones would carry the desired changes to posterity. It could be almost a perfect system for the Pharisees, however, at certain point they committed an error and today we can see clear signs of their alterations."

This is a historical fact, and you can find this article by following this link for further information:

http://www.roytov.com/articles/bible.htm

Let me know if you need articles to prove every other religion have done the same. Therefore I say this to your arguments: The errors, cruelty, contradictions and other arguments you might find are most likely related to the distortion of part of the message sent by God. Nevertheless, the key for salvation is still there.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2012, 09:05:26 AM by HAL »

Offline HAL

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Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2012, 08:06:47 PM »
Please do not post in this thread unless you are Augusto, Lucifer, or me (the moderator).

Thank you.

Offline One Above All

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Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2012, 03:47:45 AM »
There are 4 primary attribute that describe what God would be. If any of these attributes are found in one force, then we can continue on, to see if God is real.

Stop right there. Even if we find a force that has attributes you ascribe to your god, that doesn't mean anything. Forces are not sentient. They exist because of the laws of physics. A god is supposed to be sentient.

1) Eternal, not involved with the flow of our time.

Impossible. Time is a necessity for existence, or at least for interaction. If your god is a "force", as you say, then it cannot be "outside of time", whatever the hell that means.

2) Omnipresent, found everywhere.

Impossible. For something to be everywhere, it needs to be everything. If your god is a force, then it is not everywhere.

3) Omnipotent, all powerful.

Impossible. The Omnipotence paradoxWiki effectively destroys any claims that a being can be all powerful.

4) Omniscient, having all knowledge.

Impossible. We know of random events (events that are impossible to predict), as stated in the Uncertainty principleWiki. Omniscience is a practical impossibility.

<snip>
In "Signal Travels Father And Faster Than Light", by Malcom W. Browne, a force was found conecting two freed electrons and proven to be eternal, was present within our time, yet was not involved with the flow of our time. This eternal force connects with all freed electrons. Every particle that releases energy connects to this eternal force.

You mean quantum entanglement? It most certainly is present within our time, and it does not connect with all freed electrons. From my understanding, when two electrons, for example[1], collide, one will always have the opposite spin of the other. Basically they follow the law of conservation of momentum to the letter, even when separated. If one is going faster, one is going more slowly (in accordance to the speed at which they separated, IIRC). This "force", as you call it, is not eternal (by your definition) and is not omnipresent.

In experiments by Russian scientists, they found at http://www.quantumbalancing.com/news/russian_dna.htm that laser photons knew when a DNA molecule was added into the vacoom. The photons/electrons collected around the DNA strand and began to change the order of the DNA, changing it to what it desired (Evolution?). After the DNA was removed and the laser turned off the excess photons remained in the position resembling the DNA for over 22 minutes.

Where do I start...
First of all, that entire article is BS. DNA is not language any more than my farts are classical music. DNA is a molecule. It's as simple as that. Second of all, what you said is not even present in the article. Third, the very notion that what you said is true is retarded. Photons don't stop moving; not even in very low temperatures. And finally, that article is... well, it's retarded.[2] "Vacuum domains are self-radiant balls of ionized gas that contain considerable amounts of energy"? Seriously? Vacuum has nothing even resembling atoms or ions. Whoever wrote that article needs to go back to school. Or go to school in the first place. I know of no student who would even suggest the existence of something even close to a gas in vacuum. It's oxymoronic.
Come back with a new source. One with less idiocy and more facts.

The easiest way to prove this force is omnipotent
<snip>

Wasn't the "force" the quantum entanglement you described earlier? You know, the one that is neither omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient or even sentient?

Visual evidence is seen in the distance of stars and galaxies across the universe. Acording to the first law of thermodinamycs energy cannot be created or destroyed. Then where did all the energy in our universe came from? Does it have anything to do with this same force being timeless?

There are these things called "virtual particles" that pop up everywhere and disappear shortly afterward. That's a possible source for all the matter and energy of the universe. There's also gravity, which is always a negative force (decreases energy, thereby making the total energy of the universe 0, which means that it can appear from "nothing").
Also, if mass and energy can neither be created nor destroyed, where did your god come from? By the way, does your god have a name? All of this "your god" stuff is really tiring. Clearly it's not YHWH. YHWH made everything in 6 days about 10,000 years ago, and we know that the universe is way older than that.

See the Unified Field theory and Universal Consciousness. The discovery of the 5th Generation computer by Vogelsang in 1982 was evidence to this single intelligent all knowing consciousness. The universe is alive, self aware. All things are a portion of this consciousness which gives life to the universe. The Great Omniscient Designer(GOD). Designer because this consciousness is self aware.

I would see everything after "Unified Field theory", but I have no reason to. If you wish to argue, post it in your own words. Or quote with the source. I'm not going to do your research for you, especially when your entire post is one enormous non-sequitur.

Now, here's why your post is a non-sequitur:
You start off with some unsupported claims (by the way, you should really support those) that "My god is this" and "My god is that", and then you go on to say "If my god is this and that and if this is also this and that, it means that this is my god". You continue into your incoherent (as I explained above, none of those things are even possible) ramble by saying that one force is somehow sentient, omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent, also without any evidence. You made a few references to some experiments, most of which are utter nonsense (you should study some physics; it would really help you understand just how idiotic your claims are) which, even if true, would prove nothing, since they don't relate to quantum entanglement.

In short, it's as if you grabbed three puzzles and put them all together into one, resulting in an incoherent mess of mismatching images and Cubist-like painting.[3]

This debate is NOT about the veracity of the content of the bible, but about the existence or non existence of God.

WHICH god? If it's YHWH, then the Bible is all you have to go on. There is NO other piece of unambiguous writing referring to YHWH. The universe is no more proof of YHWH than it is of Odin, the All-Father.

EDIT: Almost forgot. I snipped a large portion of your post (the one with the videos) because I already explained that quantum entanglement is not a god twice in this post. I wouldn't want to do it a third time. I'm running out of analogies to explain how wrong you are.
 1. It's not limited to electrons.
 2. I know I've said this before. The fact that I'm repeating myself should show you just how retarded it is.
 3. Note that I have nothing against the Cubism movement. It's just an analogy.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2012, 04:07:00 AM by Lucifer »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline HAL

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Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2012, 09:03:57 AM »
*** Moderator intervention ***

Augusto, no more videos. If you have a point to make from a video, summarize the point of the video yourself, and make am attribution to it via a link ONLY.

Remove this part of the link --> http://www. so that the actual video does not appear in the thread, as so -

youtube.com/watch?v=vERTXdSBQSU&feature=related

I have made these corrections to your post above.

The debate is for your opponent to hear arguments in your own words. You can use some points from other people, but it has to be used in your own argument and has to be properly cited with a link - no mass blocks of copy/pasta. This is not a war of Google search results/videos of other people's works.

Any more videos will be removed and you will be asked to do what I instructed here.

*** Moderator intervention ***
« Last Edit: February 26, 2012, 09:13:15 AM by HAL »

Offline HAL

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Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2012, 11:08:43 AM »
Augusto's last post is being transferred to the commentary thread, with a response from me.

Offline One Above All

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Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2012, 11:20:01 AM »
I know the last post was moved to the commentary thread, but I think this bit should be replied to here.

Lucifer: First of all you did not offer a second argument;

There is no second argument because there is nothing to argue against other than the Bible when it comes to YHWH.

neither had you defended your first argument.

Yeah, I did. Remember the whole "If we're discussing the existence of YHWH then the Bible is relevant" thing?

Therefore, if I win this argument, or the next one I'm going to post you should, by rule (because it was specified before the debate started), lose.

I remember something about a pigeon, a chess match and bird crap. I think that analogy applies here.

If this is not the case, and you do have more arguments and/or something to say about my refute to your initial argument you should pay more attention to the rules we should be following.

Make another post. I'm gonna start pointing out every inconsistency I can think of in your arguments. Trust me, it's not gonna be pretty.

That includes using an appropriated, civil language, which you also ignored.

Where did I ignore that? I called your arguments what they were - stupid. You yourself were left out of my comments.

EDIT: Fixed quotes.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2012, 11:23:36 AM by Lucifer »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline HAL

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Re: A Debate: Augusto vs. Lucifer
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2012, 08:01:59 AM »
Augusto forfeited the debate, so by default Lucifer has won.

Thank you for your participation.

Debate closed.