Author Topic: Probabilities of God's existence debate  (Read 49797 times)

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Offline One Above All

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1363 on: July 30, 2014, 12:59:12 PM »
i proposed no such thing... all i said was "it" happened.  that is all.

"It" being... what? The only "it"s coming to my mind right now are from the quote Victor Frankenstein said when he gave life to a body and a dish from a cartoon.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Offline frank callaway

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1364 on: July 30, 2014, 12:59:34 PM »
frank callaway
Do you believe that Love exist?
Do you have proof for the existence of Love that wouldn't apply to God?

i do not have you on my ignore list, i have seen your question and i apologize for not answering sooner.  i believe there is a biological basis of love... proof can be tricky, if it's absolute certainty you want... i cannot provide that. 
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Offline frank callaway

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1365 on: July 30, 2014, 01:02:18 PM »
i proposed no such thing... all i said was "it" happened.  that is all.

"It" being... what? The only "it"s coming to my mind right now are from the quote Victor Frankenstein said when he gave life to a body and a dish from a cartoon.

i cannot help you understand what "it" is... but "it" happened, whatever "it" is...
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1366 on: July 30, 2014, 01:04:08 PM »
frank callaway
Do you believe that Love exist?
Do you have proof for the existence of Love that wouldn't apply to God?

i do not have you on my ignore list, i have seen your question and i apologize for not answering sooner.  i believe there is a biological basis of love... proof can be tricky, if it's absolute certainty you want... i cannot provide that. 
I just want to know what are YOUR proofs for the existence of Love and if there are proof that apply to Love that do not apply to God.
I don't really care about absolute certainty right now. It will come later, once every single living being will approve the existence of God OR that they all lie when they say "I love you"
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1367 on: July 30, 2014, 01:07:19 PM »
i cannot help you understand what "it" is... but "it" happened, whatever "it" is...

Amazing. So you're suggesting that something happened that nobody knows what is... But it really did happen!
You know how we know something happened? Because it left behind evidence. When atomic decay released less energy than it was supposed to, scientists realized something had happened. Only after seeing something was wrong did they realize something had happened.

Anyway, I'm done trying to explain this to you. Unfortunately, I'm not allowed to explain why I'm done, though I think everyone else can figure it out easily.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1368 on: July 30, 2014, 02:01:34 PM »
i cannot help you understand what "it" is... but "it" happened, whatever "it" is...

You are as confused as Alice.

Have you worked out yet if you have experienced an uncaused event?
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Offline frank callaway

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1369 on: July 30, 2014, 02:19:37 PM »
i cannot help you understand what "it" is... but "it" happened, whatever "it" is...

Amazing. So you're suggesting that something happened that nobody knows what is...

are you suggesting that you know the precise conditions at t=0, not 10 to the minus 36 seconds, not one trillionth of a trillionth of a trillionth of a second after the Big Bang... but t=0.

enlighten me... or better yet, ignore me and don't respond.
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Offline frank callaway

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1370 on: July 30, 2014, 02:21:21 PM »
i cannot help you understand what "it" is... but "it" happened, whatever "it" is...

You are as confused as Alice.

Have you worked out yet if you have experienced an uncaused event?

have you worked your head out of your ass yet...?
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Offline median

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1371 on: July 30, 2014, 02:47:09 PM »
i proposed no such thing... all i said was "it" happened.  that is all.

"It" being... what? The only "it"s coming to my mind right now are from the quote Victor Frankenstein said when he gave life to a body and a dish from a cartoon.

i cannot help you understand what "it" is... but "it" happened, whatever "it" is...

What are you attempting to refer to here? What is this "it"?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Defiance

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1372 on: July 30, 2014, 02:57:22 PM »
Again, no one could do it, because even gods have to act through time.

Gods can't perform an action without time, as an action itself is bound to time.

And moreover, gods can't exist without a Space (THE space) accommodating his existence.

So, either you prove that actions occur without time, AND existence occurs without the only thing allows existence, Space.

OR

Shift your position where god only existed in time and space, hence AFTER time began and therefore not involved in the Big Bang at all. ( Aka: Completely discredit genesis and the bible).

OR

Drop your claim and admit you don't know.
"God is just and fair"
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*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1373 on: July 30, 2014, 03:01:20 PM »
and when i mentioned the complexity of the universe comparatively with the human brain, i was simply contemplating the  phenomenon of consciousness.  consciousness being something that i believe to be true, but cannot prove.
The word gets knocked about a bit as an attribute of the universe. My wife has an otherwise intelligent friend who believes that "even rocks have memories".

You seem to have a way with words,
1. Why would it matter if the universe were conscious?
2. If something has a consciousness, it would also have somewhere physical to hold that consciousness - have you any idea what that might be?
3. As consciousness is an attribute of a living being, and the only [other?] attribute common to all living beings is reproduction, does the universe reproduce?
4. Do you think that the universe is a closed system?
5. What made you first think that the universe might have a consciousness?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1374 on: July 30, 2014, 03:01:49 PM »
i cannot help you understand what "it" is... but "it" happened, whatever "it" is...

You are as confused as Alice.

Have you worked out yet if you have experienced an uncaused event?

have you worked your head out of your ass yet...?

I'll take that as "no" since you obviously don't want to admit you were wrong.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1375 on: July 30, 2014, 03:32:29 PM »
We got a live one here, folks. If fc sticks around it's gonna be fun! :laugh:
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1376 on: July 30, 2014, 04:10:26 PM »
are you suggesting that you know the precise conditions at t=0, not 10 to the minus 36 seconds, not one trillionth of a trillionth of a trillionth of a second after the Big Bang... but t=0.

enlighten me... or better yet, ignore me and don't respond.

The precise conditions at t=0 were the non-existence of our universe. That is what t=0 means.
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Offline frank callaway

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1377 on: July 31, 2014, 10:06:50 AM »
are you suggesting that you know the precise conditions at t=0, not 10 to the minus 36 seconds, not one trillionth of a trillionth of a trillionth of a second after the Big Bang... but t=0.

enlighten me... or better yet, ignore me and don't respond.

The precise conditions at t=0 were the non-existence of our universe. That is what t=0 means.

so the non-existence of our universe is "it"...?  i'll buy that for a dollar.
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Offline frank callaway

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1378 on: July 31, 2014, 10:27:25 AM »
1. Why would it matter if the universe were conscious?

if one subscribes to the postmodern worldview it probably would not matter to them.  or to be more precise, it would only matter or have meaning, to the extent of that person's perspective, bias, or cultural experience.

2. If something has a consciousness, it would also have somewhere physical to hold that consciousness - have you any idea what that might be?
have you ever heard the lecture given by feynman back in the 50's "there's plenty of room at the bottom"?  this comes to mind because to me, it seems consciousness (whatever that is) could be held at the atomic level...?

3. As consciousness is an attribute of a living being, and the only [other?] attribute common to all living beings is reproduction, does the universe reproduce?

perhaps, an attribute of the multiverse theory...?

4. Do you think that the universe is a closed system?

to be honest, i haven't thought much about that... but m-theory is interesting.

5. What made you first think that the universe might have a consciousness?

call it "intuition", but that may not be totally correct... i guess i thought if the universe can produce consciousness, then perhaps it IS conscious.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1379 on: July 31, 2014, 10:38:35 AM »
To be honest, I've wondered whether the universe might be sentient.  It is a large system.  And if it were sentient, how would I know?  Afterall, a cell in my body has no idea that the larger system, of which is it part, is sentient.  So me being but a tiny part of a larger system, might not be able to discern whether the whole was sentient either. 

I concluded that the universe probably isn't sentient because it does not appear to be interconnected in the same way as a brain.  But I do not have much certitude on that.

I've also wondered whether the internet is sentient.  It is interconnected like the brain, so it seems to me, it could be aware.  But again, if it is not talking to us (why would I talk to my individual brain cells?), how would we know?
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Offline Ataraxia

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1380 on: July 31, 2014, 10:44:11 AM »
Why is there a separation being made here between the universe and us? "We are the universe made manifest, trying to figure itself out". There is no us and it.
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1381 on: July 31, 2014, 12:59:34 PM »
The precise conditions at t=0 were the non-existence of our universe. That is what t=0 means.

so the non-existence of our universe is "it"...?  i'll buy that for a dollar.

If you want to know about "it" you will have to ask Alice. So far you have shown that you are ignoring a more intelligent answer about the properties of non-existence. When I asked you if you had experienced a non-caused event you wrote this nonsense without thinking and ignoring the discussion immediately before that space and time are necessary for events.

we're not talking about events within space and time.

Do you expect to be taken seriously when you write something like this?

As for your statement that human knowledge is infantile. Do you know that the properties of the early universe are some of the most intensely studied subjects in the world using some of the most expensive equipment ever built. It is not true that we know nothing about the early universe. Even where there are gaps in knowledge, we have reasonable ideas how the universe began.
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Offline Astreja

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1382 on: July 31, 2014, 01:10:25 PM »
To be honest, I've wondered whether the universe might be sentient.

I don't know if it is or not, but I like imagining that it's sentient when I'm brainstorming for new approaches to a problem.  Interestingly, I get a neurological response from this "conversation" in the form of a tingle down the spine.

Quote
I concluded that the universe probably isn't sentient because it does not appear to be interconnected in the same way as a brain.  But I do not have much certitude on that.

Well, if everything that comprises us was there at the Big Bang, in the form of the singularity, everything was interconnected once.  Whether that's a basis for communication in time-space, though ... *shrug*
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1383 on: July 31, 2014, 01:32:26 PM »
call it "intuition", but that may not be totally correct... i guess i thought if the universe can produce consciousness, then perhaps it IS conscious.

Have you considered that a "mind" the size of the universe would not be able to think?

Maybe I will call your universe- "Tilde". I will have to take some time to make up a name.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1384 on: July 31, 2014, 01:57:49 PM »
Yeah, but love? and the existence of God debate? :)
You seem do be drifting from the subject, no?
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1385 on: July 31, 2014, 02:15:49 PM »
Yeah, but love? and the existence of God debate? :)
You seem do be drifting from the subject, no?

Sorry dear, it got boring 47 pages ago.
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Offline frank callaway

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1386 on: July 31, 2014, 02:31:07 PM »
Yeah, but love? and the existence of God debate? :)
You seem do be drifting from the subject, no?

i'll resurrect this topic... (no pun intended).  if god exists then love exists, at least the version of love that i believe you're talking about... which is the greek agape love, or unconditional love.  if god does not exists then love is just a biological function.  no need to over think it... "it" IS or "it" is NOT.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agape
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1387 on: July 31, 2014, 03:18:13 PM »
I'm not sure why love as "just a biological function" is somehow less than love from mysterious supernatural beings out there. Biology, including neurology has produced some pretty damn fine things.

Painting, sculpture, film, poetry, literature, music, cuisine, fashion, sports, games, puzzles, family life-- everything that makes it fun to be alive is from biological functions.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1388 on: July 31, 2014, 03:47:35 PM »
Of course without biological function you wouldn't be alive. No more fun to be alive then. Logic.
Foxy you mean that it is boring because you are running out of argument to contradict the existence of Love? (and thus God) But since you don't want to admit the existence of God, you flee? :)
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Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1389 on: July 31, 2014, 06:47:22 PM »
Okay, I'm sorry, how exactly is love linked with this "God" thing?

I thought the thread title was "Probabilities of God's existence debate", not "Probabilities of Love's existence debate".

EDIT:

Also, I find the following question really arrogant:

Foxy you mean that it is boring because you are running out of argument to contradict the existence of Love? (and thus God) But since you don't want to admit the existence of God, you flee? :)

If I flee from the crazy homeless person wearing tin foil for a hat does that mean I don't want to admit that lizard aliens from Jupiter are coming to Earth to steal my thoughts?

Don't mistake me Lukvance, your question did not offend me, it exposes your arrogance.  Just because someone doesn't want to participate in a discussion any longer does not mean you're right, and thinking that is arrogant.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 06:57:49 PM by SevenPatch »
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1390 on: July 31, 2014, 06:53:32 PM »
Okay, I'm sorry, how exactly is love linked with this "God" thing?

I thought the thread title was "Probabilities of God's existence debate", not "Probabilities of Love's existence debate".

Lukvance's argument is that, if love exists, so does his god. He has yet to show a connection between the two that would make this true.

Lukvance, does your god depend on something else in order to exist? If so, is love your god's god? In addition, given that only living beings feel love, are we your god's god's god?
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Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1391 on: July 31, 2014, 06:59:59 PM »
Lukvance's argument is that, if love exists, so does his god. He has yet to show a connection between the two that would make this true.

Ah, okay, that is what I thought.  Let me guess, Lukvance defined "God" as love without supporting evidence?
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