Author Topic: Probabilities of God's existence debate  (Read 44481 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Astreja

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2997
  • Darwins +265/-3
  • Gender: Female
  • Agnostic goddess with Clue-by-Four™
    • The Springy Goddess
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1044 on: May 15, 2014, 12:01:40 PM »
There is one consistency among all converts. They are all happier than before. I've never seen someone who met God and wasn't happier after he met Him than before.

How many believers have you surveyed in this regard (rough estimate), and of which denominations?  Have you made inquiries at ex-Christian, ex-Muslim, ex-Buddhist or similar sites?  Former believers testify to being extremely happy when they successfully free themselves from those beliefs, even if religion initially increased their happiness.  How do you explain this phenomenon?

That wasn't exactly what I was looking for, however, as happiness can come from a vast number of non-religious sources.  It's a subjective and internal process that could easily be imagined into being and cannot accurately be quantified.  I want to see something objective and tangible that happens to all seekers, as consistent and pervasive as gravity, and clearly linked to a god and to no other possible cause.
Reality Checkroom — Not Responsible for Lost Articles

Offline Lukvance

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1931
  • Darwins +13/-257
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1045 on: May 15, 2014, 01:56:22 PM »
Still not good enough.  You said "If you go to the moon ... you will find love".  Unless you can tell me exactly where I will find it, you have no basis to make such a claim.
My answer is good enough. Could you tell me exactly where the wind will blow in my backyard? Or, let's say to make the same parallel in size, on earth?
I cannot tell you exactly where love is on the moon like you cannot tell me where the wind blow on earth.
True.  But then I wouldn't be so dumb as to say "if you go here, you will definitely find this", if I had nothing to back it up with.
Ok. How about this : You are loved (at least by people like me). Wherever you go, our love will be with you. So if you go to the moon you will find love.  Agreed?
You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1931
  • Darwins +13/-257
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1046 on: May 15, 2014, 02:00:05 PM »
If every human being's brain was suddenly removed, would "god" still exist?  And if so, in precisely what way?
That's a good question. It is like : "If every human being's brain was suddenly removed, would "Numbers" or "mathematics" still exist?  And if so, in precisely what way?"
I would be inclined to say that logically Yes. But I'm not sure, I wasn't there. What do you think? If every human being's brain was suddenly removed, would "Numbers" or "mathematics" still exist?  And if so, in precisely what way?
You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1931
  • Darwins +13/-257
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1047 on: May 15, 2014, 02:03:17 PM »
Essentially, love started when people started (or any other entity capable of an emotion called love).
You are, and have been claiming, that 'love' has an independent existence outside of minds.  It's time to pony up the evidence and reasoning behind that claim.
If love started with the first entity capable of an emotion wouldn't that mean that love was there before the said entity? it was there independent of his mind then he "discovered it" and called it love?
You're worth more than my time

Offline jdawg70

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1966
  • Darwins +355/-8
  • Ex-rosary squad
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1048 on: May 15, 2014, 02:46:32 PM »
Essentially, love started when people started (or any other entity capable of an emotion called love).
You are, and have been claiming, that 'love' has an independent existence outside of minds.  It's time to pony up the evidence and reasoning behind that claim.
If love started with the first entity capable of an emotion wouldn't that mean that love was there before the said entity? it was there independent of his mind then he "discovered it" and called it love?
No.  I'm confused why that isn't immediately obvious.  Did you have a different definition of the word 'start' in mind?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Online nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6504
  • Darwins +847/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1049 on: May 15, 2014, 02:54:37 PM »
When did love start? Whenever the first entity capable of experiencing the emotion felt the reaction of the brain chemicals and called it love. Before that, there was not any love floating around waiting for the entity with the brains chemicals to show up.

Communicating with Lukvance is like explaining where babies come from to a 3-year-old child. Only the child would have a better memory of what we just discussed a minute ago.  :angel:
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline epidemic

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 784
  • Darwins +53/-14
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1050 on: May 15, 2014, 02:59:36 PM »
Essentially, love started when people started (or any other entity capable of an emotion called love).
You are, and have been claiming, that 'love' has an independent existence outside of minds.  It's time to pony up the evidence and reasoning behind that claim.
If love started with the first entity capable of an emotion wouldn't that mean that love was there before the said entity? it was there independent of his mind then he "discovered it" and called it love?

I consider our species a pack animal,  Pack animals from prarie dogs to wolves, primates to what ever, they all seem to exhibit traits of love.  In each species down the intelligence the complexity of love seems to reduce.  elephants seem to morn the loss of one of their troop almost as badly as we seem to morn the loss of a family member.

As brain and social bonds increase so the the learned social responses but I still don't see love as being more than an advanced form of what lower animals experience.  Love evolved to where it is IMO.


Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12206
  • Darwins +655/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1051 on: May 15, 2014, 03:29:43 PM »
Ok. How about this : You are loved (at least by people like me). Wherever you go, our love will be with you. So if you go to the moon you will find love.  Agreed?

This undermines the very point you have been arguing for and makes the point you have been arguing against - that love only exists within people.

Christ, that took a long time.
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Lukvance

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1931
  • Darwins +13/-257
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1052 on: May 15, 2014, 06:14:59 PM »
If love started with the first entity capable of an emotion wouldn't that mean that love was there before the said entity? it was there independent of his mind then he "discovered it" and called it love?
No.  I'm confused why that isn't immediately obvious.  Did you have a different definition of the word 'start' in mind?
No, I have the same definition of start. I am just asking questions.
Do you agree with me that, in a way, the carved tree is a proof of love? (That the "reaction of the brain chemicals" pushed the man to carve it.)
You're worth more than my time

Offline G-Roll

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 369
  • Darwins +42/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1053 on: May 15, 2014, 06:23:30 PM »
^
This has to be a troll. This has gone too far and this conclusion is just to fucking epic. I got to throw the flag, I had doubts at first but... come on.

Offline Lukvance

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1931
  • Darwins +13/-257
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1054 on: May 15, 2014, 06:32:28 PM »
This undermines the very point you have been arguing for and makes the point you have been arguing against - that love only exists within people.
Christ, that took a long time.
You can call me Luk :) Contrary to popular belief, I was not arguing against any point.
You're worth more than my time

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1055 on: May 16, 2014, 04:19:24 AM »
If every human being's brain was suddenly removed, would "god" still exist?  And if so, in precisely what way?
I would be inclined to say that logically Yes. But I'm not sure, I wasn't there. What do you think?

If "god" is purely a concept held in the mind, then clearly the answer is "no".  I'd be interested in hearing what the logical steps were that caused you to answer "logically, yes".

More importantly, perhaps you might like to answer the second part of the question, the part in bold?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 04:23:28 AM by Anfauglir »
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1056 on: May 16, 2014, 04:21:36 AM »
Ok. How about this : You are loved (at least by people like me). Wherever you go, our love will be with you. So if you go to the moon you will find love.  Agreed?

Nope.  Don't understand.  You will be on earth, loving me.  I will be on the moon.  How - exactly - will your love "be with me"?  How - exactly - will I find this love?.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1057 on: May 16, 2014, 04:28:44 AM »
If every human being's brain was suddenly removed, would "Numbers" or "mathematics" still exist?  And if so, in precisely what way?

Interesting.  Why the sudden leap away from "love" and other emotions, towards "numbers"?  All through this thread, you've been relating "god" to "love" - yet suddenly, you've dropped "love" like a hot potato and gone for something else?

I wonder why that is?  My suspicion is because you realised that the answer to "If every human being's brain was suddenly removed, would 'love' still exist?" would be a resounding and definitive "no" - which would shoot your analogy with god stone dead.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Lukvance

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1931
  • Darwins +13/-257
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1058 on: May 16, 2014, 04:55:07 AM »
If every human being's brain was suddenly removed, would "god" still exist?  And if so, in precisely what way?
I would be inclined to say that logically Yes. But I'm not sure, I wasn't there. What do you think?

If "god" is purely a concept held in the mind, then clearly the answer is "no".  I'd be interested in hearing what the logical steps were that caused you to answer "logically, yes".

More importantly, perhaps you might like to answer the second part of the question, the part in bold?
God always existed he created everything. Our minds are a product of this creation. He was there before our mind and will be after. In what way would God be? In a perfect way surely since he is perfect :)
You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1931
  • Darwins +13/-257
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1059 on: May 16, 2014, 04:57:36 AM »
Ok. How about this : You are loved (at least by people like me). Wherever you go, our love will be with you. So if you go to the moon you will find love.  Agreed?

Nope.  Don't understand.  You will be on earth, loving me.  I will be on the moon.  How - exactly - will your love "be with me"?  How - exactly - will I find this love?.
For example you could think of me on the moon and the fact that I love you will push the necessary button on your brain to feel love. Then you have felt love on the moon, you found love on the moon.
You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1931
  • Darwins +13/-257
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1060 on: May 16, 2014, 04:58:26 AM »
If every human being's brain was suddenly removed, would "Numbers" or "mathematics" still exist?  And if so, in precisely what way?

Interesting.  Why the sudden leap away from "love" and other emotions, towards "numbers"?  All through this thread, you've been relating "god" to "love" - yet suddenly, you've dropped "love" like a hot potato and gone for something else?

I wonder why that is?  My suspicion is because you realised that the answer to "If every human being's brain was suddenly removed, would 'love' still exist?" would be a resounding and definitive "no" - which would shoot your analogy with god stone dead.
Not quite. God loves me and all his creation. Of course you will find love everywhere, God is everywhere :)
You're worth more than my time

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1061 on: May 16, 2014, 07:09:00 AM »
God always existed he created everything. Our minds are a product of this creation. He was there before our mind and will be after. In what way would God be? In a perfect way surely since he is perfect :)

God loves me and all his creation. Of course you will find love everywhere, God is everywhere :)

Sorry Luk - we're nowhere NEAR the point where you can make those claims, especially since you've been saying that god is exactly as real as love, or Gandalf.  No fair suddenly jumping to the conclusion.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1062 on: May 16, 2014, 07:13:00 AM »
Ok. How about this : You are loved (at least by people like me). Wherever you go, our love will be with you. So if you go to the moon you will find love.  Agreed?

Nope.  Don't understand.  You will be on earth, loving me.  I will be on the moon.  How - exactly - will your love "be with me"?  How - exactly - will I find this love?.
For example you could think of me on the moon and the fact that I love you will push the necessary button on your brain to feel love. Then you have felt love on the moon, you found love on the moon.

So what you are saying is that there is no physical transmission of your love from you on earth to me on the moon - rather, you are agreeing that a memory (a function within my brain) will trigger an electrochemical reaction that will result in my experiencing a feeling of love.  I will have felt love on the moon, but I will not have found love there.

Your response also seems conditional on my being aware that you love me, in order for my memory to spark the electrochemical process off, is that correct?  If I was unaware that you loved me, would I feel love on the moon at the thought of you - given that I have no feelings of love towards you?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Lukvance

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1931
  • Darwins +13/-257
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1063 on: May 16, 2014, 07:16:36 AM »
Ok. How about this : You are loved (at least by people like me). Wherever you go, our love will be with you. So if you go to the moon you will find love.  Agreed?

Nope.  Don't understand.  You will be on earth, loving me.  I will be on the moon.  How - exactly - will your love "be with me"?  How - exactly - will I find this love?.
For example you could think of me on the moon and the fact that I love you will push the necessary button on your brain to feel love. Then you have felt love on the moon, you found love on the moon.

So what you are saying is that there is no physical transmission of your love from you on earth to me on the moon - rather, you are agreeing that a memory (a function within my brain) will trigger an electrochemical reaction that will result in my experiencing a feeling of love.  I will have felt love on the moon, but I will not have found love there.

Your response also seems conditional on my being aware that you love me, in order for my memory to spark the electrochemical process off, is that correct?  If I was unaware that you loved me, would I feel love on the moon at the thought of you - given that I have no feelings of love towards you?
It depends, where you looking for it?
You're worth more than my time

Offline shnozzola

Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1064 on: May 16, 2014, 07:36:14 AM »
"If every human being's brain was suddenly removed, would 'love' still exist?" would be a resounding and definitive "no" - which would shoot your analogy with god stone dead.

I wonder about this.  Many sals go crazy when you pick up their new born pigs.  Only their newborn offspring.  Now, obviously it is a product of evolution protecting the newborn, just as humans (edit:  not just newborns, each of us protecting each of us),  - so in removing a human's brain, does love cease to exist, or did it never exist?  And, Epidemic mentioned elephants.  Can only the human species claim a defined word "love"?  Just wondering.  I guess it's just semantics. "Love" only ever is a product of evolutionary protection. Sorry for the interruption.  Carry on.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 07:41:04 AM by shnozzola »
“The best thing for being sad," replied Merlin, beginning to puff and blow, "is to learn something."  ~ T. H. White
  The real holy trinity:  onion, celery, and bell pepper ~  all Cajun Chefs

Offline Lukvance

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1931
  • Darwins +13/-257
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1065 on: May 16, 2014, 07:37:44 AM »
God always existed he created everything. Our minds are a product of this creation. He was there before our mind and will be after. In what way would God be? In a perfect way surely since he is perfect :)

God loves me and all his creation. Of course you will find love everywhere, God is everywhere :)

Sorry Luk - we're nowhere NEAR the point where you can make those claims, especially since you've been saying that god is exactly as real as love, or Gandalf.  No fair suddenly jumping to the conclusion.
Yeah, sorry these are the conclusion of another thread. But I don't see how I can clear the fog created by me trying to not use them.
You're worth more than my time

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1066 on: May 16, 2014, 07:53:28 AM »
So what you are saying is that there is no physical transmission of your love from you on earth to me on the moon - rather, you are agreeing that a memory (a function within my brain) will trigger an electrochemical reaction that will result in my experiencing a feeling of love.  I will have felt love on the moon, but I will not have found love there.

Your response also seems conditional on my being aware that you love me, in order for my memory to spark the electrochemical process off, is that correct?  If I was unaware that you loved me, would I feel love on the moon at the thought of you - given that I have no feelings of love towards you?
It depends, where you looking for it?

You tell me - YOU are the one making the assertion that I will find it.

So yes or no: If I was unaware that you loved me, would I feel love on the moon at the thought of you - given that I have no feelings of love towards you?

If - as seems to be the case - you want the answer to be conditional on my taking certain actions, then please specify in details what those actions should be for the answer to become a definite "yes".

For someone so keen to get us to understand his viewpoint, you seem extremely loathe to give detail, or to answer direct questions.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline epidemic

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 784
  • Darwins +53/-14
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1067 on: May 16, 2014, 07:56:13 AM »
So what you are saying is that there is no physical transmission of your love from you on earth to me on the moon - rather, you are agreeing that a memory (a function within my brain) will trigger an electrochemical reaction that will result in my experiencing a feeling of love.  I will have felt love on the moon, but I will not have found love there.

Your response also seems conditional on my being aware that you love me, in order for my memory to spark the electrochemical process off, is that correct?  If I was unaware that you loved me, would I feel love on the moon at the thought of you - given that I have no feelings of love towards you?
It depends, where you looking for it?

You tell me - YOU are the one making the assertion that I will find it.

So yes or no: If I was unaware that you loved me, would I feel love on the moon at the thought of you - given that I have no feelings of love towards you?

If - as seems to be the case - you want the answer to be conditional on my taking certain actions, then please specify in details what those actions should be for the answer to become a definite "yes".

For someone so keen to get us to understand his viewpoint, you seem extremely loathe to give detail, or to answer direct questions.

great queston,

Does Emma Stone know that I love her, and when she is on set does she get the same warm and fuzzy feeling as I have for her?

Offline Lukvance

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1931
  • Darwins +13/-257
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1068 on: May 16, 2014, 08:00:16 AM »
So yes or no: If I was unaware that you loved me, would I feel love on the moon at the thought of you - given that I have no feelings of love towards you?
Yes. If you looked for it. For example : You get to the moon, you think of me (not in a particularly loving way), then you search love on the moon (with your brain or any other tools you have at your disposition to measure love) you might surprise yourself thinking of me in a loving way....or thinking about your lover. There, you found love on the moon.
This is one of many scenario that I can think of. Most of them imply God creating the universe and you looking down on earth and feeling that love that God made in his creation.
I love yes or no questions! More! :)
You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1931
  • Darwins +13/-257
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1069 on: May 16, 2014, 08:12:05 AM »
Does Emma Stone know that I love her, and when she is on set does she get the same warm and fuzzy feeling as I have for her?
Good question. You'll never know if you don't ask her :)
You're worth more than my time

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1070 on: May 16, 2014, 08:17:37 AM »
I love yes or no questions! More! :)

Unfortunately, I'm getting tired of asking them, because you never actually answer the question I'm posing.

Let's look a your original statement:
Wherever you go, our love will be with you. So if you go to the moon you will find love.

So yes or no: If I was unaware that you loved me, would I feel love on the moon at the thought of you - given that I have no feelings of love towards you?


And in response, I get a load of waffle about me thinking of someone else, and feeling love.  What has that got to do with your original statement?

In what way would YOUR love "be with me"?

Again - for someone allegedly keen for us to share his viewpoint, you seem curiously intent on sliding away from the questions being asked.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline epidemic

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 784
  • Darwins +53/-14
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1071 on: May 16, 2014, 08:18:27 AM »
Does Emma Stone know that I love her, and when she is on set does she get the same warm and fuzzy feeling as I have for her?
Good question. You'll never know if you don't ask her :)

Actually I would know I have had girls fawn over me in highschool while I was still oblivious to girls.  I felt no unexplained spontanious warm fuzzy feelings of love as these girls skulked around in the background hoping for me to see them.

Likewise With a spouse who has fallen out of love with you and is plotting to kill you, very often the victim is completely oblivious, still believing that he/she is loved.

Offline jdawg70

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1966
  • Darwins +355/-8
  • Ex-rosary squad
Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #1072 on: May 16, 2014, 08:36:18 AM »
If love started with the first entity capable of an emotion wouldn't that mean that love was there before the said entity? it was there independent of his mind then he "discovered it" and called it love?
No.  I'm confused why that isn't immediately obvious.  Did you have a different definition of the word 'start' in mind?
No, I have the same definition of start. I am just asking questions.
I know that you are asking questions, but your question is weird.  You're essentially asking that, if love started with a first entity, doesn't that mean that love existed before that first entity.  Which is a bizarre conclusion to ask about.

Quote
Do you agree with me that, in a way, the carved tree is a proof of love? (That the "reaction of the brain chemicals" pushed the man to carve it.)
A carving in a tree can be evidence for quite a lot.  It may have been the result of Bob and Alice loving each other.  It may have been the result of Bob manipulating Alice for sex.  It may have been the result of Alice manipulating Bob for sex.  It may have been a remnant from a movie being filmed.  It may have been part of an art display on the cheesy cliches.

But if Bob and Alice claimed that they were in love?  If they pointed to that carving, I'd say yeah, that's a bit of evidence to support that claim.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard