Author Topic: Probabilities of God's existence debate  (Read 33831 times)

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Offline shnozzola

Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #812 on: April 08, 2014, 05:17:51 AM »
Lukvance,
         I'm on a phone, so can't say as much as I want.  I do not mean to insult you.  For the purpoese of this debate - What is your definition of god?
   
“I wanna go ice fishing on Europa, and see if something swims up to the camera lens and licks it.”- Neil deGrasse Tyson

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #813 on: April 08, 2014, 10:06:09 AM »
That what I thought. You wouldn't expect that from Love, why would you expect it from God?
I'm confused again.  Expect what from god, exactly?  I've already laid out some of the things I'd expect to manifest in reality if this god entity you're proposing exists.

Also, I'd just like to make something clear here.  There are levels of burden of proof - you can't latch on to just one positive and assume that it makes your claims correct.  If we go back to the sun example, I laid out a few examples of manifestations in actual reality I would expect if the sun does in fact exist.  But I can lay out quite a few more (involving procession of planets, amount of measurable solar energy one would expect to accumulate from a solar panel of a given size over a given period of time, detection of particles streams from the sun, etc.), but there are many, many converging lines of evidence that suggest the truth of the claim 'the sun exists'.

Just keep that in mind.

----------------------------------------

Lukvance, could I get some clarity from you?

Do you believe that god exists outside of your mind?  Do you believe that god exists in the external world, independently of us?

It's just that you seem to be leaning towards solipsism:
I'm trying to prove to you (all) that nothing is real or everything is real.
That if you think that Love is real then God is real.

And if that's your position, well, fine I suppose.  But you've eradicated everyone's arguments here, including yours.

Maybe you aren't a solipsist.  Maybe you haven't launched the philosophical nuke.  But you seem to have opened the briefcase and have your hand on the button.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #814 on: April 08, 2014, 12:23:24 PM »
Let's see then, here is the definition I am starting with,

"Reality" can have an effect independently of whether any person has a concept of it. "Unreality" cannot have an effect independently of any person's concept of it. In other words "unreality" is only a concept.
Is love a concept? If so, is love still real?
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #815 on: April 08, 2014, 12:30:31 PM »
Is the God who gave you the Bible the same God who didn't give Muslim children the Bible?
And . . . is this the same God that "has no limitations"?
That's a good question.
The answer to these need you to accept that God exist. If you don't, the following answers won't make sense.
The God I believe in is not the same than the God Muslim believe in. I admit they have some similarities. I believe that Muslim's vision of God is incomplete, like they have only a piece of the whole.
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline Astreja

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #816 on: April 08, 2014, 12:31:22 PM »
Is love a concept? If so, is love still real?

IMO, only to the extent that it can be "verbed"[1] or expressed in the form of an action.

In other words, "love" (the noun) can remain a concept while "to love" (the emotions and actions inspired by and/or explained by the concept of love) is what we usually encounter in the real world.
 1. "Verbing weirds language." - Calvin and Hobbes
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #817 on: April 08, 2014, 12:31:48 PM »
Let's see then, here is the definition I am starting with,

"Reality" can have an effect independently of whether any person has a concept of it. "Unreality" cannot have an effect independently of any person's concept of it. In other words "unreality" is only a concept.
Is love a concept? If so, is love still real?

Yes, see my list of examples. Real things can also have concepts, gravity is a concept. I am not sure that everyone would agree on the same concept of love, but the emotion is real.


"Reality" and "unreality" stand for something real or unreal. You can replace them with a concept or thing to see if it is real or not. If it is real you can give an example of the effect.

For bacteria. 1) Bacteria can have an effect independently of whether any person has a concept of it. 2) Bacteria cannot have an effect independently of any person's concept of it. In other words bacteria is only a concept. The answer is 1) because bacteria causes diseases

For the sun. 1) The sun can have an effect independently of whether any person has a concept of it. 2) The sun cannot have an effect independently of any person's concept of it. In other words the sun is only a concept. The answer is 1) because the sun causes sun burn

For love. 1) Love can have an effect independently of whether any person has a concept of it. 2) Love cannot have an effect independently of any person's concept of it. In other words love is only a concept. The answer is 1) because love is an emotion which animals have, they love their babies for example.

For a god 1) A god can have an effect independently of whether any person has a concept of it. 2) A god cannot have an effect independently of any person's concept of it. In other words a god is only a concept. The answer is 2) because a god can do nothing unless you or someone else has invented the concept. The Flying Spaghetti Monster is the same.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2014, 12:35:12 PM by Foxy Freedom »
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #818 on: April 08, 2014, 12:59:42 PM »
Where is there so much love in the world that the only source could be your god? What about all the places where there is no love, or where love is distorted or misused or taken advantage of?
I don't believe there is a place without love. I agree with you that love can be distorted or misused or taken advantage of. In these cases love is still there.
God can also be distorted or misused or taken advantage of.

Quote
Love is a part of reality, but it is not all of reality. Too many other factors play in to our lives every day.
I agree with you. Love is not all of reality. God is not all of reality (in fact I believe he is but this is not the point I want to discuss here) But they both exist, even only as a part of reality. Sometime Love is felt sometime it is not (when you drive for example) like anything else that exist, you don't need to feel it for it to exist. God answer the same rules.
Which rule apply to Love and don't apply to God?
I mean by that, "Love can be distorted" is a rule. It applies also to God. Are there rules that don't?
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #819 on: April 08, 2014, 01:13:59 PM »
you don't need to feel it for it to exist. God answer the same rules.

Not true, see my last example above. If you disagree, give an example where god does something independently of people's concept of god.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #820 on: April 08, 2014, 01:29:39 PM »
LukeVance

Why does you avatar have a anglo Jesus?

Why can't/wont god heal amputees?

Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man who turned on him? (both situations according to the bible made him angry.)  If god knows all, is not bound by time and has absolute power why would he keep doing things that disappoint him.


Finally why make me with a fallible brain, knowing (in his infine wisdom) that I would take all the evidence of his existence and misread it as fable.  Then for a simple mistake of reason punish me for a finite sin of a fallible brain (he created) to an eternity of punishment? (mind you I don't disbelieve in god because I don't like him, I dont believe because I find his story to be ficticious)

Oh yeah, why all the mystery, surely a visible god is much easier to believe in.  Why all the cloak and dagger shit? Appear in the sky blow up some sinners and write a bible in a language that all humans understand at their core, no translation errors or misunderstanding.  Hell writing a bible that all humans understand at a genetic level would certainly go a long way toward to converting me I think.  Why let your word be corrupted by mistranslations, and period sensitive verses that are culturally meaningless today.
You're funny, Welcome to the conversation about the existence of God. For me to answer your question you will have to acknowledge first his existence (that's what implied in your questions). Do you agree with me that God exist?

Why would I need to acknowledge gods existence for you to comment.  But if it makes you feel better I will acknowlege his existence for the sake of argument. 

Personally as we learn more about the universe we slowly push back the place where god must have existed.  Once upon a time god was necessary for lightning to strike (then we learned about electrons), rain to come (condensation and evaporation), stars to exist (gravity and burning hydrogen).  Our knowledge of the mechanics of weather, universe do not eliminate the possibility of god, only offers a non supernatural alternative.  Now the place where I still leave reserved for possible proof of god is the instant the big bang began.  The only place I see as a last refuge for proving god is in my ignorance of the creation of everything from nothing.   

For the moment I will take that shread of belief in the possibility of a creator to be my belief in god/any flavor of the christian bible you choose.  So go ahead and answer the questions above.


PS just thought of another great proof.  Any attempt to misrepresent the word of god on paper results in the words catching fire, and uttering falsehoods about god makes you violently ill.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2014, 01:49:53 PM by epidemic »

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #821 on: April 08, 2014, 01:46:19 PM »
Riddle Me this, Lukvance:  Why, then, do I see Love as real but your god as unreal?


For the same reason that some people see love as unreal. They don't want to believe before they feel it. And they don't want to "endanger" themselves because love is scary and destroy people, so they flee and tell everyone that "love does not exist, it's a fallacy, a myth. Nothing good ever come out of love just look at the divorce rate."
Quote
love" (the noun) can remain a concept while "to love" (the emotions and actions inspired by and/or explained by the concept of love) is what we usually encounter in the real world.
I like this definition. Even if I think that a concept is real. The equivalent of "to love" can be found with the God concept too. Emotions and actions can be inspired by and/or explained by the concept of God, this is what we usually encounter in the real world.
Are you ready to admit that God is real? Why not?
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #822 on: April 08, 2014, 01:57:45 PM »
For love. 1) Love can have an effect independently of whether any person has a concept of it. 2) Love cannot have an effect independently of any person's concept of it. In other words love is only a concept. The answer is 1) because love is an emotion which animals have, they love their babies for example.

For a god 1) A god can have an effect independently of whether any person has a concept of it. 2) A god cannot have an effect independently of any person's concept of it. In other words a god is only a concept. The answer is 2) because a god can do nothing unless you or someone else has invented the concept. The Flying Spaghetti Monster is the same.
For God [chose one] :
1) God can have an effect independently of whether any person has a concept of it.
2) God cannot have an effect independently of any person's concept of it. In other words God is only a concept.
The answer is 1) because God is a notion which animals have, they pray him everyday for example. They even teach their kids how to do the same. Abandoned dogs pray too! :) (I don't believe animals experience love as I do but for the sake of the argument I will allow your example were you use love in the animal kingdom)
Also, Love can do nothing unless you or someone else has invented the concept. Anger is the same.
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #823 on: April 08, 2014, 01:58:13 PM »
Emotions and actions can be inspired by and/or explained by the concept of God, this is what we usually encounter in the real world.


Exactly, that is why god is not real. God is just a concept. God does not act independently.
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #824 on: April 08, 2014, 02:08:53 PM »
For love. 1) Love can have an effect independently of whether any person has a concept of it. 2) Love cannot have an effect independently of any person's concept of it. In other words love is only a concept. The answer is 1) because love is an emotion which animals have, they love their babies for example.

For a god 1) A god can have an effect independently of whether any person has a concept of it. 2) A god cannot have an effect independently of any person's concept of it. In other words a god is only a concept. The answer is 2) because a god can do nothing unless you or someone else has invented the concept. The Flying Spaghetti Monster is the same.
For God [chose one] :
1) God can have an effect independently of whether any person has a concept of it.
2) God cannot have an effect independently of any person's concept of it. In other words God is only a concept.
The answer is 1) because God is a notion which animals have, they pray him everyday for example. They even teach their kids how to do the same. Abandoned dogs pray too! :) (I don't believe animals experience love as I do but for the sake of the argument I will allow your example were you use love in the animal kingdom)
Also, Love can do nothing unless you or someone else has invented the concept. Anger is the same.

A notion is a concept so god is just a concept.

Love is an emotion which animals feel because they love their babies. They don't need a concept.
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Offline Astreja

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #825 on: April 08, 2014, 02:20:54 PM »
Riddle Me this, Lukvance:  Why, then, do I see Love as real but your god as unreal?


For the same reason that some people see love as unreal. They don't want to believe before they feel it. And they don't want to "endanger" themselves because love is scary and destroy people, so they flee and tell everyone that "love does not exist, it's a fallacy, a myth. Nothing good ever come out of love just look at the divorce rate."

So what you're saying here is that I have to believe first, then feel?  No, that doesn't work for Me.  I felt love long before I knew what it was called, and never did I have to believe in it.  It was just there.

The rest of your quoted response is bordering on hyperbole and strawman -- I personally don't know anyone who describes love in that fashion.

Quote
Are you ready to admit that God is real? Why not?

No, because I am literally incapable of just believing for the sake of believing.  In fact, I may very well go to My grave still not believing that your god is anything more substantial than an idea.

At this point I need something tangible in the way of evidence, and the gold standard is a physical encounter with a god in the real world -- Preferably with at least two or three witnesses, to minimize the chance of the encounter being a hallucination.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #826 on: April 08, 2014, 02:33:37 PM »
LukeVance

Why does you avatar have a anglo Jesus?

Why can't/wont god heal amputees?

Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man who turned on him? (both situations according to the bible made him angry.)  If god knows all, is not bound by time and has absolute power why would he keep doing things that disappoint him.


Finally why make me with a fallible brain, knowing (in his infine wisdom) that I would take all the evidence of his existence and misread it as fable.  Then for a simple mistake of reason punish me for a finite sin of a fallible brain (he created) to an eternity of punishment? (mind you I don't disbelieve in god because I don't like him, I dont believe because I find his story to be ficticious)

Oh yeah, why all the mystery, surely a visible god is much easier to believe in.  Why all the cloak and dagger shit? Appear in the sky blow up some sinners and write a bible in a language that all humans understand at their core, no translation errors or misunderstanding.  Hell writing a bible that all humans understand at a genetic level would certainly go a long way toward to converting me I think.  Why let your word be corrupted by mistranslations, and period sensitive verses that are culturally meaningless today.
You're funny, Welcome to the conversation about the existence of God. For me to answer your question you will have to acknowledge first his existence (that's what implied in your questions). Do you agree with me that God exist?

Why would I need to acknowledge gods existence for you to comment.  But if it makes you feel better I will acknowlege his existence for the sake of argument. 

Personally as we learn more about the universe we slowly push back the place where god must have existed.  Once upon a time god was necessary for lightning to strike (then we learned about electrons), rain to come (condensation and evaporation), stars to exist (gravity and burning hydrogen).  Our knowledge of the mechanics of weather, universe do not eliminate the possibility of god, only offers a non supernatural alternative.  Now the place where I still leave reserved for possible proof of god is the instant the big bang began.  The only place I see as a last refuge for proving god is in my ignorance of the creation of everything from nothing.   

For the moment I will take that shread of belief in the possibility of a creator to be my belief in god/any flavor of the christian bible you choose.  So go ahead and answer the questions above.


PS just thought of another great proof.  Any attempt to misrepresent the word of god on paper results in the words catching fire, and uttering falsehoods about god makes you violently ill.
As I said, I would love to discuss it with you. Here is not the place. We are here to debate the existence of God and we both agree that He exist.
Quote
Why does you avatar have a anglo Jesus?
  Because I find it beautiful.

Here are the links to the questions you asked.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26618.new.html#new
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26620.0.html
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26619.0.html
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26621.0.html

I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #827 on: April 08, 2014, 03:19:11 PM »
For God [chose one] :
1) God can have an effect independently of whether any person has a concept of it.
2) God cannot have an effect independently of any person's concept of it. In other words God is only a concept.
The answer is 1) because God is a notion which animals have, they pray him everyday for example. They even teach their kids how to do the same. Abandoned dogs pray too! :) (I don't believe animals experience love as I do but for the sake of the argument I will allow your example were you use love in the animal kingdom)
Also, Love can do nothing unless you or someone else has invented the concept. Anger is the same.

You realize that you've just described animals doing things in response to the concept of god, but not in response to an actual god, right?

Or are you just absolutely dead set on playing stupid and pretending that you don't understand the differences between a concept and an actual manifestation of a concept?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #828 on: April 08, 2014, 04:22:39 PM »
At this point I need something tangible in the way of evidence, and the gold standard is a physical encounter with a god in the real world -- Preferably with at least two or three witnesses, to minimize the chance of the encounter being a hallucination.
You don't need a physical encounter with Love to recognize it's existence. Why would you need a physical encounter with God?
If you want to see the effect of God on people, you can come to my church, or meet me! :)

Also, I felt God long before I knew what it was called, and never did I have to believe in him.  It was just there.
Quote
I personally don't know anyone who describes love in that fashion.
I know many abused children who will tell you what I told you... and more. Have you ever met an abused child? Did he believe that love existed?
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #829 on: April 08, 2014, 04:25:56 PM »
For God [chose one] :
1) God can have an effect independently of whether any person has a concept of it.
2) God cannot have an effect independently of any person's concept of it. In other words God is only a concept.
The answer is 1) because God is a notion which animals have, they pray him everyday for example. They even teach their kids how to do the same. Abandoned dogs pray too! :) (I don't believe animals experience love as I do but for the sake of the argument I will allow your example were you use love in the animal kingdom)
Also, Love can do nothing unless you or someone else has invented the concept. Anger is the same.

You realize that you've just described animals doing things in response to the concept of god, but not in response to an actual god, right?

Or are you just absolutely dead set on playing stupid and pretending that you don't understand the differences between a concept and an actual manifestation of a concept?
The concept of God and the concept of Love. I did what Foxy did. She talked about the concept of Love and I responded with the concept of God. If she meant actual Love then I meant actual God. You should talk with her about that...not me.
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #830 on: April 08, 2014, 04:32:43 PM »
A notion is a concept so god is just a concept.
Love is an emotion which animals feel because they love their babies. They don't need a concept.
You call love an emotion but it is just because we humans decided to call the emotion the same way we named the concept/the notion we have. I could say "because God is an emotion animals have, they pray him everyday for example." But because of our language it doesn't make sense. So I should say "because the emotion created by God is an emotion which animals have, they pray him everyday for example." How does that sound?
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline Astreja

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #831 on: April 08, 2014, 11:31:33 PM »
You don't need a physical encounter with Love to recognize it's existence. Why would you need a physical encounter with God?  If you want to see the effect of God on people, you can come to my church, or meet me!

No.  Physical encounter or nothing.  This is not negotiable, as I find scripture and personal testimony unconvincing..

Furthermore, if your "God" concept is an emotion rather than an actual sentient being whom I could meet in person, why do you call it a "he"?

Quote
I know many abused children who will tell you what I told you... and more. Have you ever met an abused child? Did he believe that love existed?

I have experienced abuse Myself.  I have also experienced love.  I have no idea what anyone else actually believes; I have to go on what they tell Me, as I do not read minds.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #832 on: April 09, 2014, 02:59:26 AM »
For example: if you have not eaten all day, the concepts "you are hungry" and "you are NOT hungry" are both legitimately real by your terms.  Do you assign more value to one statement over the other?  If so, what process do you use?
"I'm hungry" is more real because if I chose "I'm not hungry" and don't eat, I might die (in the aftermath of my choice).

Apologies for the delayed response.

So essentially what you are saying is that you "rank" degrees of reality based on their actual impact on your life?  On actual interactions that you experience with the thing being stated?

God is more real to me than it is to you. But He's still real.

Maybe.  But - due to the lack of effect this "god" character has on my life, it is perfectly reasonable (by your argument) for me to place it on a level of reality alongside Voldemort and Gandalf, two characters that I have equal experience with, in that both they and "god" are written constructs from the imagination that I have never experienced in reality.

Glad we've cleared that up.

Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #833 on: April 09, 2014, 08:44:27 AM »
The concept of God and the concept of Love. I did what Foxy did. She talked about the concept of Love and I responded with the concept of God. If she meant actual Love then I meant actual God. You should talk with her about that...not me.

Yes, and you've described a scenario that would show that a concept of god does exist.

You recognize that no one here is proposing that the concept of god does not exist, don't you?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Online nogodsforme

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #834 on: April 09, 2014, 03:08:14 PM »
Let me get this straight, did Lukvance just say that non-human animals pray to a god?

WTF?

Like, malaria mosquitoes, plague rats, the AIDS virus and intestinal parasites all pray for more children to come their way, and their prayers are heard and answered far more often than those of those kids' parents. 

Who did god make the world for again? Oh, yeah, bacteria and germs. That's why we can't see god--he's just a gigantic invisible disease germ. &)

Do numbers of believers count or not, Lukvance?

You said you do not pray to Mr. Spock because he does not have enough testimonials.[1]You said that you are convinced of your god's existence because of testimonials, and the numbers of people being converted to your faith.

But Hindus can also produce millions of heartfelt, personal testimonials.  And there is another faith that is gaining converts even faster than yours (Islam). Both religions change people's lives for the better and encourage people to do good works.

So, based on the numbers, which of the two should we convert to, Islam or Hinduism? Are the numbers more important than whether the religion is true? Or do the numbers equal truth in your way of thinking? If the latter, than I await your upcoming conversion to Islam when the numbers are high enough.
 1. I gave you a testimonial--how do you just discount that? BTW, That is the WRONG reason not to pray to Mr. Spock. I hope you do not have a job in anything related to keeping people safe.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #835 on: April 10, 2014, 04:28:42 PM »
You don't need a physical encounter with Love to recognize it's existence. Why would you need a physical encounter with God?  If you want to see the effect of God on people, you can come to my church, or meet me!

No.  Physical encounter or nothing.  This is not negotiable, as I find scripture and personal testimony unconvincing..

Furthermore, if your "God" concept is an emotion rather than an actual sentient being whom I could meet in person, why do you call it a "he"?

Quote
I know many abused children who will tell you what I told you... and more. Have you ever met an abused child? Did he believe that love existed?

I have experienced abuse Myself.  I have also experienced love.  I have no idea what anyone else actually believes; I have to go on what they tell Me, as I do not read minds.

You are lucky to have experienced love. Some didn't have that chance. I don't know if it is too personal but during that time when you where abused, did you believe that love existed? Why? was it because someone was loving you or because someone told you about it and you believed him or it was a left out feeling from before you were abused? (If it's too personal I'll understand)
I don't believe that God is an emotion.
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #836 on: April 10, 2014, 04:42:16 PM »
So essentially what you are saying is that you "rank" degrees of reality based on their actual impact on your life?  On actual interactions that you experience with the thing being stated?
Yes for the first and no for the second question. It's based on the consequence of the choice so not the actual interactions but the consequence of these interactions.

Quote
due to the lack of effect this "god" character has on my life, it is perfectly reasonable (by your argument) for me to place it on a level of reality alongside Voldemort and Gandalf, two characters that I have equal experience with, in that both they and "god" are written constructs from the imagination that I have never experienced in reality.

Yes! Exactly. What I want to prove here is that "God does not exist" is not a true sentence. And that even if you believe that God is as real as Voldemort, he still exist.
Are Star Trek characters (the ones from the TV series) at the same level of reality than Gandalf?
I remember seven of nine, she didn't make me feel anything before, then I saw her on tv... :)
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #837 on: April 10, 2014, 04:44:18 PM »
The concept of God and the concept of Love. I did what Foxy did. She talked about the concept of Love and I responded with the concept of God. If she meant actual Love then I meant actual God. You should talk with her about that...not me.

Yes, and you've described a scenario that would show that a concept of god does exist.

You recognize that no one here is proposing that the concept of god does not exist, don't you?
Yes. So, you talked to her eh? :)
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #838 on: April 10, 2014, 05:12:59 PM »
Let me get this straight, did Lukvance just say that non-human animals pray to a god?

WTF?

Like, malaria mosquitoes, plague rats, the AIDS virus and intestinal parasites all pray for more children to come their way, and their prayers are heard and answered far more often than those of those kids' parents. 

Who did god make the world for again? Oh, yeah, bacteria and germs. That's why we can't see god--he's just a gigantic invisible disease germ. &)

Do numbers of believers count or not, Lukvance?

You said you do not pray to Mr. Spock because he does not have enough testimonials.[1]You said that you are convinced of your god's existence because of testimonials, and the numbers of people being converted to your faith.

But Hindus can also produce millions of heartfelt, personal testimonials.  And there is another faith that is gaining converts even faster than yours (Islam). Both religions change people's lives for the better and encourage people to do good works.

So, based on the numbers, which of the two should we convert to, Islam or Hinduism? Are the numbers more important than whether the religion is true? Or do the numbers equal truth in your way of thinking? If the latter, than I await your upcoming conversion to Islam when the numbers are high enough.
 1. I gave you a testimonial--how do you just discount that? BTW, That is the WRONG reason not to pray to Mr. Spock. I hope you do not have a job in anything related to keeping people safe.

If you COMBINE Islam and Hinduism converted people you get less than if you count Islam only. People are LEAVING Hinduism to be Christian (or other religion but mostly Christian) 660 377 people each year if you want the exact number. There are 865 000 People who convert to Islam and 2 500 000 People who convert to Christianity.
So, based on the numbers [2] I made the right choice. :)
I talked about logic too. I've met with a group of Mormons they where in the thousands. I personally met 5 of them but their faith did not test well against my logic. (plus they expected me to give them 10% of my income each week! haha)
Quote
Let me get this straight, did Lukvance just say that non-human animals pray to a god?
Let me get this straight, I wasn't answering to you. Only to people who believe that dogs knows about Love. And that, mister, is the fuck.
 2. http://fastestgrowingreligion.com/numbers.html
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 05:14:33 PM by Lukvance »
I could [support my claims], but you wouldn't understand. Others have tried and you can't or won't see it.

You're worth more than my time

Offline Astreja

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #839 on: April 10, 2014, 05:35:23 PM »
I don't know if it is too personal but during that time when you where abused, did you believe that love existed? Why?

Why? Because *I* was still capable of loving others.  IIRC, I was capable of affection towards many other beings long before I was consciously aware of receiving love.  I also  had a fairly advanced sense of morality by the time I entered kindergarten, enough so to know that teasing other kids was wrong even if it was done to Me.

The most egregious abuse I experienced was as an adult, in the context of a decades-long relationship.  One of the reasons it was hard to break away was that I had a substantial personal investment in the situation and kept hoping against hope[1] that things would improve.

At one point, though, just after New Year's in the last months of the relationship, I experienced a moment of clarity.  It was a moment of pure emotional darkness, an  hour or so of depression so intense that it wouldn't be out of line to call it The Void or The Abyss.  I felt so utterly alone in the universe that I said to Myself "If I have to go forward from this point without love, so be it."

And I put one foot in front of the other, and numbly "walked" through life by rote until the darkness lifted.  My only options were to trust Myself, trust that I possessed the strength to face the problems at hand, or die.

Six months later, I was free.

It's also very interesting that no deities chose to exploit My weakness.  If ever there had been a moment in which I had been open to receiving outside assistance, that would have been it; yet in the end, I saved Myself and the "other gods" remained constructs of the imagination, no more real than before the experience.
 1. "Hope is the denial of reality." - Raistlin Majere
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #840 on: April 10, 2014, 05:53:27 PM »
The concept of God and the concept of Love. I did what Foxy did. She talked about the concept of Love and I responded with the concept of God. If she meant actual Love then I meant actual God. You should talk with her about that...not me.

Yes, and you've described a scenario that would show that a concept of god does exist.

You recognize that no one here is proposing that the concept of god does not exist, don't you?
Yes. So, you talked to her eh? :)

I said in my last five posts on this thread that god is a concept. You even quoted me saying it more than once. You are so occupied with fantasies, that you don't think clearly.
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