Author Topic: Probabilities of God's existence debate  (Read 49548 times)

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #783 on: April 07, 2014, 12:32:18 PM »
Not quite, God answers also all your definitions of what is real.
My goal is proving that God exist using you own definition of existence. (he does exist using mine)
You say "(X) exist because it respect the laws y z and w or because of t"
I say : "God exist because he respect the laws you just enunciate and t"

   Lukvance, just stop.  These existential brain in a vat, matrix, existence threads and questions get tiresome.   While it is fun to stretch our brains and go round and round and philosophize with people all over about "the woo concept of reality " - when we finish, we eat real food while wearing real clothing and look out a real window at a real landscape before we sit down again at the real computer and continue to go on about how "god answers all your definitions of what is real."

There is no god to answer questions about anything.

In the news section, I started a thread about an Afghan police officer screaming "God is Great" and shooting two European women reporters.





Quote
The attacker, Naqibullah, confessed to the shooting and told authorities he was from Parwan province, northwest of Kabul, and was acting to avenge the deaths of family members in a NATO bombing there. The claim could not be corroborated and officials said they were still investigating the shooter's background.


THIS is reality, Lukvance - there is no god that has anything to do with it.  There never was.  Hopefully we can get the lightbulb in your mind to go on and you can question whether beliefs in gods is helping society.   Look again at everything that goes on in your life, from feeding the cat to getting the car fixed to boiling rice, and realize there isn't a god, and the only real faith possible is faith in other people, and these extremist theists scattered everywhere are making that very hard.

edit: spelling, bad grammar
So, we should all stop discussing because it makes you tired? I don't feel tired. I got already 2 people insulting me and others telling me to "shut up" in a discussion forum those are synonyms of "you're right but I don't want to admit it so I will insult you or try to scare you away"
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #784 on: April 07, 2014, 12:34:46 PM »
Not quite, God answers also all your definitions of what is real.
My goal is proving that God exist using you own definition of existence. (he does exist using mine)
You say "(X) exist because it respect the laws y z and w or because of t"
I say : "God exist because he respect the laws you just enunciate and t"

   Lukvance, just stop.  These existential brain in a vat, matrix, existence threads and questions get tiresome.   While it is fun to stretch our brains and go round and round and philosophize with people all over about "the woo concept of reality " - when we finish, we eat real food while wearing real clothing and look out a real window at a real landscape before we sit down again at the real computer and continue to go on about how "god answers all your definitions of what is real."

There is no god to answer questions about anything.

In the news section, I started a thread about an Afghan police officer screaming "God is Great" and shooting two European women reporters.





Quote
The attacker, Naqibullah, confessed to the shooting and told authorities he was from Parwan province, northwest of Kabul, and was acting to avenge the deaths of family members in a NATO bombing there. The claim could not be corroborated and officials said they were still investigating the shooter's background.


THIS is reality, Lukvance - there is no god that has anything to do with it.  There never was.  Hopefully we can get the lightbulb in your mind to go on and you can question whether beliefs in gods is helping society.   Look again at everything that goes on in your life, from feeding the cat to getting the car fixed to boiling rice, and realize there isn't a god, and the only real faith possible is faith in other people, and these extremist theists scattered everywhere are making that very hard.

edit: spelling, bad grammar
So, we should all stop discussing because it makes you tired? I don't feel tired. I got already 2 people insulting me and others telling me to "shut up" in a discussion forum those are synonyms of "you're right but I don't want to admit it so I will insult you or try to scare you away"
I wont tell you to shut up, but I certainly am having trouble following your arguments.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #785 on: April 07, 2014, 12:36:30 PM »
Lukvance, I asked Mr. Spock to save me from abuse when I was young. He did. My proof? Here I am, happy as a clam with a great life.

I think you should be praying to Mr. Spock instead of your god. Why don't you pray to Mr. Spock?  Think about your response.

I (and I speak for myself here) don't pray to him because there are not enough testimony of his power. Also, God is stronger than Spock (he doesn't have the limitations that Spock has)
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #786 on: April 07, 2014, 12:38:03 PM »
I wont tell you to shut up, but I certainly am having trouble following your arguments.

If you have trouble understanding what I'm saying and want to understand, ask your question(s) and I will try to answer them in a different way each time. Maybe it will be clearer then.
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #787 on: April 07, 2014, 01:03:52 PM »
If you have trouble understanding what I'm saying and want to understand, ask your question(s) and I will try to answer them in a different way each time. Maybe it will be clearer then.

Let me be crystal clear.

Who is preventing you?

Do you care that your thoughts are so confused?
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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #788 on: April 07, 2014, 01:11:05 PM »
I wont tell you to shut up, but I certainly am having trouble following your arguments.

If you have trouble understanding what I'm saying and want to understand, ask your question(s) and I will try to answer them in a different way each time. Maybe it will be clearer then.

While you say that you are certain that there is a god, understand that most of us are almost as certain that there isn't one.

Is there any way I could convince you that there is not a god? I assume that your answer is a resounding 'no'.

Well, guess what. It works the other way too. There is no way for you to convince me that there is a god. Now if you want to put some effort into having your god convince me, maybe he could do it. If he is real. Otherwise, it can't be done.

If there is a god, he has given you a piss-poor vocabulary for telling us that. Not that you're a poor writer or anything (though clarity isn't always your strong suit). Its just that none of the words you've used have had any effect. They are totally ineffective. And there are no words in the english language that you could substitute to get better results. Because all words can do is convey messages, and if you don't have one, they fail.

If you were standing at my door, trying to hand me tracts and tell me that jesus loves me, I'd tell you to go away. I wish I had as much control here on the forum. I don't. But I can still say "Go away." Because I'm getting tired of being talked at instead of with. And tired of hearing the same old message, over and over, from holier-than-thou you.

You are wrong. You don't know it, but you are wrong. You think you are right, but you are wrong. You are so wrong that 'wrong' is an inadequate word to describe it, but our non-god sources aren't any better than your pseudo-god sources for words. And until you can see that you are wrong, and until you can start a post with the word 'oops', you have nothing to offer us. Not even charm.

Go find someone who is more vulnerable. There are people who can be converted. Because they aren't thinking clearly and stuff. But not us.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #789 on: April 07, 2014, 01:14:25 PM »
Lukvance, I asked Mr. Spock to save me from abuse when I was young. He did. My proof? Here I am, happy as a clam with a great life.

I think you should be praying to Mr. Spock instead of your god. Why don't you pray to Mr. Spock?  Think about your response.

I (and I speak for myself here) don't pray to him because there are not enough testimony of his power. Also, God is stronger than Spock (he doesn't have the limitations that Spock has)

Boris the Cosmic Bullet Dodger is far more powerful than this 'god' fellow.

Boris the Cosmic Bullet Dodger is an entity whose power compared to god's is as god's power is to an ant.  Boris the Cosmic Bullet Dodger does not have the limitations that god has.

Roughly how many people need to make this testimony to you before you start praying to Boris the Cosmic Bullet Dodger?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #790 on: April 07, 2014, 02:12:21 PM »
I get understand the difference between the questions "Why does (x) exist" and "Why do you think (x) exists". My English being what it is. I always mean "why you think (x) exists".
My goal is proving that God exist using you own definition of existence. (he does exist using mine)
You say "(X) exist because it respect the laws y z and w or because of t"
I say : "God exist because he respect the laws you just enunciate and t"
Would another way to say this be:
I believe that god exists because reality is consistent with the expectations I have of god's existence vs. his non-existence.
Maybe, it's not quite exact. I believe that god exists because reality is consistent with the expectations I have of something's existence vs. his non-existence.

Quote
Does your rules 1. and 2. apply to Love? Or does Love answer some other rules that you forgot to describe? Or Love doesn't exist?
Yes, and you know it applies, and you know that I know that it applies:
Or are you playing semantic games and think of love as something so meaningless as to have no effect on anything in reality?

For me, Love exist (there is a definition and there is a word for it) and has an effect in reality. I was trying to understand your point 1 and 2 when I asked about love.
Does 1 and 2 apply to God?
Just to remember, here they are :
1. The thing manifest circumstances in external, objective reality that coincide with it's existence and do not coincide with it's non-existence.
2. You can make predictions about it explain other aspects of external, objective reality based on the manifestations in external, objective reality due to it's existence
And we agree that they apply to Love

Boris the Cosmic Bullet Dodger is far more powerful than this 'god' fellow.

Boris the Cosmic Bullet Dodger is an entity whose power compared to god's is as god's power is to an ant.  Boris the Cosmic Bullet Dodger does not have the limitations that god has.

Roughly how many people need to make this testimony to you before you start praying to Boris the Cosmic Bullet Dodger?

Hmm knowing that God has no limitations (he is infinite) it might be hard to convince me that Boris is more powerful or that he doesn't have the limitations that God has.
Let's imagine that someone convince me that it was the case, I would then call him God and use Boris as a nickname :) He would still be the same God that gave me the Bible and/or Jesus. Just under another name.
Some people I talked with called God by one of his synonym, we agreed both his entity and mine were the "same".

EDIT : About the number of people needed? More convertion each year that Christianism has on paper. In my entourage, at least 3 converted persons.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 02:34:04 PM by Lukvance »
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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #791 on: April 07, 2014, 02:20:33 PM »
Hmm knowing that God has no limitations (he is infinite) ...

"Knowing that"?  Lukvance, the word "believe" exists for a reason.  I doubt very much that you can know the limitations, or lack thereof, of a divine being.  You can know that your definition of God describes it as having no limitations, and you can believe that your god has no limitations, but it's ludicrous to think that you (or anyone else, for that matter) could know for certain that your god has no limitations.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #792 on: April 07, 2014, 02:24:27 PM »
I wont tell you to shut up, but I certainly am having trouble following your arguments.

If you have trouble understanding what I'm saying and want to understand, ask your question(s) and I will try to answer them in a different way each time. Maybe it will be clearer then.

While you say that you are certain that there is a god, understand that most of us are almost as certain that there isn't one.

Is there any way I could convince you that there is not a god? I assume that your answer is a resounding 'no'.

Well, guess what. It works the other way too. There is no way for you to convince me that there is a god. Now if you want to put some effort into having your god convince me, maybe he could do it. If he is real. Otherwise, it can't be done.

If there is a god, he has given you a piss-poor vocabulary for telling us that. Not that you're a poor writer or anything (though clarity isn't always your strong suit). Its just that none of the words you've used have had any effect. They are totally ineffective. And there are no words in the english language that you could substitute to get better results. Because all words can do is convey messages, and if you don't have one, they fail.

If you were standing at my door, trying to hand me tracts and tell me that jesus loves me, I'd tell you to go away. I wish I had as much control here on the forum. I don't. But I can still say "Go away." Because I'm getting tired of being talked at instead of with. And tired of hearing the same old message, over and over, from holier-than-thou you.

You are wrong. You don't know it, but you are wrong. You think you are right, but you are wrong. You are so wrong that 'wrong' is an inadequate word to describe it, but our non-god sources aren't any better than your pseudo-god sources for words. And until you can see that you are wrong, and until you can start a post with the word 'oops', you have nothing to offer us. Not even charm.

Go find someone who is more vulnerable. There are people who can be converted. Because they aren't thinking clearly and stuff. But not us.


I do not think I should be wrong because you (and most of this forum) say so. (ad populum fallacy!?)
When I start a discussion I am open to every possibilities. So yes I might be able to one day say "God doesn't exist" if someone brings me a solid definition of reality that include Love and exclude God.
You won't hear me say that you are wrong without proving it right after. (and If I did, I'm sorry)
Quote
Is there any way I could convince you that there is not a god?
  YES
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #793 on: April 07, 2014, 02:35:57 PM »
Hmm knowing that God has no limitations (he is infinite) ...
"Knowing that"?  Lukvance, the word "believe" exists for a reason.  I doubt very much that you can know the limitations, or lack thereof, of a divine being.  You can know that your definition of God describes it as having no limitations, and you can believe that your god has no limitations, but it's ludicrous to think that you (or anyone else, for that matter) could know for certain that your god has no limitations.
Thank you for your imput. It gives us more clarity. I hope that jdawg70 understood I was talking about MY belief.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #794 on: April 07, 2014, 02:37:53 PM »
Would another way to say this be:
I believe that god exists because reality is consistent with the expectations I have of god's existence vs. his non-existence.
Maybe, it's not quite exact. I believe that god exists because reality is consistent with the expectations I have of something's existence vs. his non-existence.
This is a bit confused.  I'm trying to decode it but am having difficulty.  Maybe rewording it would help?

For me, Love exist (there is a definition and there is a word for it)
and has an effect in reality. I was trying to understand your point 1 and 2 when I asked about love.
Does 1 and 2 apply to God?
Just to remember, here they are :
1. The thing manifest circumstances in external, objective reality that coincide with it's existence and do not coincide with it's non-existence.
2. You can make predictions about it explain other aspects of external, objective reality based on the manifestations in external, objective reality due to it's existence
And we agree that they apply to Love
Yes, they apply to god.

For example, one of the circumstances in external, objective reality that I would expect if an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving entity with a vested interest in human affairs exists is for this entity to make it's existence obvious.  I would expect such an entity to interact with the whole of humanity.  I would expect such an entity to at least lift a f**king finger when an innocent 6-year old child is being gang-raped.  I'd expect such an entity have a chat with the whole of humanity and try to help guide society.  I'd expect such an entity to intervene when a huckster who is promoting a false religion that could mislead others to unintentionally violate god's will.  Yet, I do not see any of these manifestations.

And, yes, perhaps my expectations are inappropriate.
Quote
Boris the Cosmic Bullet Dodger is far more powerful than this 'god' fellow.

Boris the Cosmic Bullet Dodger is an entity whose power compared to god's is as god's power is to an ant.  Boris the Cosmic Bullet Dodger does not have the limitations that god has.

Roughly how many people need to make this testimony to you before you start praying to Boris the Cosmic Bullet Dodger?

Hmm knowing that God has no limitations (he is infinite) it might be hard to convince me that Boris is more powerful or that he doesn't have the limitations that God has.
What convinced you that god has no limitations?

Quote
Let's imagine that someone convince me that it was the case, I would then call him God and use Boris as a nickname :) He would still be the same God that gave me the Bible and/or Jesus. Just under another name.
Some people I talked with called God by one of his synonym, we agreed both his entity and mine were the "same".
Like I said, Boris the Bullet Dodger is more powerful than this god entity you're referring to.  And I mean the god of the bible.
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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #795 on: April 07, 2014, 02:40:07 PM »
Hmm knowing that God has no limitations (he is infinite) ...
"Knowing that"?  Lukvance, the word "believe" exists for a reason.  I doubt very much that you can know the limitations, or lack thereof, of a divine being.  You can know that your definition of God describes it as having no limitations, and you can believe that your god has no limitations, but it's ludicrous to think that you (or anyone else, for that matter) could know for certain that your god has no limitations.
Thank you for your imput. It gives us more clarity. I hope that jdawg70 understood I was talking about MY belief.

Yes, I understand that these are your beliefs.  Do you understand that these are your beliefs regarding shared, objective reality?

It is my belief that the Eiffel Tower exists.  But the Eiffel Tower's actual existence is completely independent of my belief.
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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #796 on: April 07, 2014, 02:43:29 PM »
Hmm knowing that God has no limitations (he is infinite) ...

"Knowing that"?  Lukvance, the word "believe" exists for a reason.  I doubt very much that you can know the limitations, or lack thereof, of a divine being.  You can know that your definition of God describes it as having no limitations, and you can believe that your god has no limitations, but it's ludicrous to think that you (or anyone else, for that matter) could know for certain that your god has no limitations.

Lukvance is in control of his god, having created it.  Therefore he knows well what his god can and cannot do.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #797 on: April 07, 2014, 02:57:43 PM »
LukeVance

Why does you avatar have a anglo Jesus?

Why can't/wont god heal amputees?

Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man who turned on him? (both situations according to the bible made him angry.)  If god knows all, is not bound by time and has absolute power why would he keep doing things that disappoint him.

Finally why make me with a fallible brain, knowing (in his infine wisdom) that I would take all the evidence of his existence and misread it as fable.  Then for a simple mistake of reason punish me for a finite sin of a fallible brain (he created) to an eternity of punishment? (mind you I don't disbelieve in god because I don't like him, I dont believe because I find his story to be ficticious)

Oh yeah, why all the mystery, surely a visible god is much easier to believe in.  Why all the cloak and dagger shit? Appear in the sky blow up some sinners and write a bible in a language that all humans understand at their core, no translation errors or misunderstanding.  Hell writing a bible that all humans understand at a genetic level would certainly go a long way toward to converting me I think.  Why let your word be corrupted by mistranslations, and period sensitive verses that are culturally meaningless today.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 03:04:11 PM by epidemic »

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #798 on: April 07, 2014, 03:09:50 PM »
So yes I might be able to one day say "God doesn't exist" if someone brings me a solid definition of reality that include Love and exclude God.
You won't hear me say that you are wrong without proving it right after.

So will you really agree that god is not real if someone can give you a definition of reality which includes love and excludes god, or are you just making vague statements which you have no intention of keeping?
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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #799 on: April 07, 2014, 03:21:35 PM »
Why is love the magical metric that is the ultimate measure of the existence of god.

Love is both a cultural and biological thing.  I see it as no more interesting than respiration, or sentience.

My dog seems to exhibit love, the dog is destroyed when I am not there and is happy when I am.  Love just does not seem all that magical to me.  In fact it seems like all pack animals are capable of it to some extent making it look alot like a natural process.  People will say human love is different at a base level than the dogs love.  I have to ask how is it essentially different.  We are smarter and we process data differently than the dog but essentially the need to have someone in your life, someone who you feel bad with their absence,

love -a profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person.

Strike person and place being in its place and you have what your dog has for you.  PS don't try and say it is the food thing because my dad tries to feed my dog when I am gone and the dog wont eat:)

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #800 on: April 07, 2014, 03:46:31 PM »
Is there any way I could convince you that there is not a god?
  YES

Did you really mean this or have you decided that you don't really care if you are correct or not?
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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #801 on: April 07, 2014, 04:03:50 PM »
I do not think I should be wrong because you (and most of this forum) say so. (ad populum fallacy!?)

What we say is irrelevant. Your being wrong is not. We aren't the ones that caused there to be no god. There wasn't one in the first place for us to poof away with our magic or something. So you are not wrong because of us. You are just plain wrong.

If you want to place blame, however, it is your fault.
Quote
When I start a discussion I am open to every possibilities. So yes I might be able to one day say "God doesn't exist" if someone brings me a solid definition of reality that include Love and exclude God.

No you're not. Your hangup on love makes it impossible for you to consider that love might just be a byproduct of humans assigning meaning to emotions. It isn't a thing, but we've yet to find a way to get you to understand that. It is real, in the same way that the color red is real. It is something that we humans interpret. But it doesn't exist in nature that way we tend to think it does. And that applies both to the color red and love.

Quote
You won't hear me say that you are wrong without proving it right after. (and If I did, I'm sorry)

By saying that you are right about this love stuff, you are telling the rest of us that we are wrong. But you aren't providing any viable explanation as to why we should be all gaga over love. Because you've taken it beyond the emotional and made it the basis for everything in existence. Or at least seemingly so. And it isn't. Nerve cells that make us feel good aren't the basis for anything real. They work fine as information sources when we're trying to make decisions and such (and in the case of love, making decisions even harder to make) but they have nothing directly to do with reality. But try telling you that.

Quote
Is there any way I could convince you that there is not a god?
  YES
[/quote]

Nope. Not as long as you insist on holding on to the concept of love as a major player in reality and not as long as you insist that love goes hand in hand with your god thing.

I'll put it another way. You're barking AT the wrong tree. Find another outlet for your imaginary friends.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #802 on: April 07, 2014, 04:58:36 PM »
Would another way to say this be:
I believe that god exists because reality is consistent with the expectations I have of god's existence vs. his non-existence.
Maybe, it's not quite exact. I believe that god exists because reality is consistent with the expectations I have of something's existence vs. his non-existence.
This is a bit confused.  I'm trying to decode it but am having difficulty.  Maybe rewording it would help?
I'm sorry. As I understand, you are confuse by the fact that I replaced your word "God" by "something"? What I meant was that the definition is not limited to God. It goes for everything.
I believe that Love exist because I can see it manifest circumstances in external, objective reality that coincide with it's existence and do not coincide with it's non-existence. Same goes for God. That's what I was trying to say.

Quote from: jdawg70
For me, Love exist (there is a definition and there is a word for it)
and has an effect in reality. I was trying to understand your point 1 and 2 when I asked about love.
Does 1 and 2 apply to God?
Just to remember, here they are :
1. The thing manifest circumstances in external, objective reality that coincide with it's existence and do not coincide with it's non-existence.
2. You can make predictions about it explain other aspects of external, objective reality based on the manifestations in external, objective reality due to it's existence
And we agree that they apply to Love
Yes, they apply to god.
[...]
And, yes, perhaps my expectations are inappropriate.
That what I thought. You wouldn't expect that from Love, why would you expect it from God?

Quote from: jdawg70
Quote from: Lukvance

Boris the Cosmic Bullet Dodger is far more powerful than this 'god' fellow.

Boris the Cosmic Bullet Dodger is an entity whose power compared to god's is as god's power is to an ant.  Boris the Cosmic Bullet Dodger does not have the limitations that god has.

Roughly how many people need to make this testimony to you before you start praying to Boris the Cosmic Bullet Dodger?

Hmm knowing that God has no limitations (he is infinite) it might be hard to convince me that Boris is more powerful or that he doesn't have the limitations that God has.
What convinced you that god has no limitations?
It's in tune with the definition of God (the one with all the qualities)
You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #803 on: April 07, 2014, 05:01:44 PM »
LukeVance

Why does you avatar have a anglo Jesus?

Why can't/wont god heal amputees?

Why did god create angels, and after the angels turned on him make man who turned on him? (both situations according to the bible made him angry.)  If god knows all, is not bound by time and has absolute power why would he keep doing things that disappoint him.

Finally why make me with a fallible brain, knowing (in his infine wisdom) that I would take all the evidence of his existence and misread it as fable.  Then for a simple mistake of reason punish me for a finite sin of a fallible brain (he created) to an eternity of punishment? (mind you I don't disbelieve in god because I don't like him, I dont believe because I find his story to be ficticious)

Oh yeah, why all the mystery, surely a visible god is much easier to believe in.  Why all the cloak and dagger shit? Appear in the sky blow up some sinners and write a bible in a language that all humans understand at their core, no translation errors or misunderstanding.  Hell writing a bible that all humans understand at a genetic level would certainly go a long way toward to converting me I think.  Why let your word be corrupted by mistranslations, and period sensitive verses that are culturally meaningless today.
You're funny, Welcome to the conversation about the existence of God. For me to answer your question you will have to acknowledge first his existence (that's what implied in your questions). Do you agree with me that God exist?
You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #804 on: April 07, 2014, 05:27:34 PM »
What we say is irrelevant. Your being wrong is not. We aren't the ones that caused there to be no god. There wasn't one in the first place for us to poof away with our magic or something. So you are not wrong because of us. You are just plain wrong.
I could say : "What I say is irrelevant. Your being wrong is not. I am not the one that caused there to be god. So you are not wrong because of me. You are just plain wrong." How would that make you feel? Will it help continue the discussion?


Quote from: ParkingPlaces
Quote from: Lukvance
When I start a discussion I am open to every possibilities. So yes I might be able to one day say "God doesn't exist" if someone brings me a solid definition of reality that include Love and exclude God.
No you're not. Your hangup on love makes it impossible for you to consider that love might just be a byproduct of humans assigning meaning to emotions. It isn't a thing, but we've yet to find a way to get you to understand that. It is real, in the same way that the color red is real. It is something that we humans interpret. But it doesn't exist in nature that way we tend to think it does. And that applies both to the color red and love.
I'm not hung up on love. I used the sun too...every example of something real given to me, I used.
If you are ready to contradict yourself and declare that love does not exist. or Red does not exist. Then I might understand how you can say that God does not exist. And I would then agree with you. If love and red does not exist then god does not exist.
But I don't want to live in a world without Red or Love :)

Quote from: ParkingPlaces

Quote from: Lukvance
You won't hear me say that you are wrong without proving it right after. (and If I did, I'm sorry)
By saying that you are right about this love stuff, you are telling the rest of us that we are wrong. But you aren't providing any viable explanation as to why we should be all gaga over love. Because you've taken it beyond the emotional and made it the basis for everything in existence. Or at least seemingly so. And it isn't. Nerve cells that make us feel good aren't the basis for anything real. They work fine as information sources when we're trying to make decisions and such (and in the case of love, making decisions even harder to make) but they have nothing directly to do with reality. But try telling you that.
I'm sorry if you felt that I was telling you that you were wrong. I was merely asking questions.
I'm asking again, what is real? and why? I mean you (i mean you in plural) keep telling me about stuff that is not real and skip what is real.

I'm trying to prove to you (all) that nothing is real or everything is real.
That if you think that Love is real then God is real.

You can debate this if you want I'm open to questions! :)

Quote from: ParkingPlaces
Quote from: Lukvance
Quote from: ParkingPlaces
  Is there any way I could convince you that there is not a god?
  YES
Nope. Not as long as you insist on holding on to the concept of love as a major player in reality and not as long as you insist that love goes hand in hand with your god thing.
I'll put it another way. You're barking AT the wrong tree. Find another outlet for your imaginary friends.
I have to withdraw all my arguments (without any other reason that it displeases you) for you to be able to convince me? How is that a discussion?
You're worth more than my time

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #805 on: April 07, 2014, 06:08:00 PM »
I'm trying to prove to you (all) that nothing is real or everything is real.
That if you think that Love is real then God is real.

You can debate this if you want I'm open to questions! :)


Answer then.

Why are you failing to convince anyone?

Do you care if you are wrong?

Will you change your mind about god if someone shows your definition is wrong, and are you being honest with yourself about this?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #806 on: April 07, 2014, 07:18:27 PM »
I'm trying to prove to you (all) that nothing is real or everything is real.
That if you think that Love is real then God is real.

You can debate this if you want I'm open to questions! :)


Answer then.

Why are you failing to convince anyone?

Do you care if you are wrong?

Will you change your mind about god if someone shows your definition is wrong, and are you being honest with yourself about this?

If you ask me, I am not failing. People who get angry and start insulting others in a discussion are those who fail. Same thing when they say things like "shut up" or "stop" when they give order. They already lost any respect they started with. From then it's not a discussion anymore.
I don't want people to show me I am wrong I want them to discuss with me so that we grow together.
For your last question, I already answered ParkingPlaces.
Is there any way I could convince you that there is not a god?
  YES
You're worth more than my time

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #807 on: April 07, 2014, 07:31:24 PM »
Let's see then, here is the definition I am starting with,

"Reality" can have an effect independently of whether any person has a concept of it. "Unreality" cannot have an effect independently of any person's concept of it. In other words "unreality" is only a concept.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 07:36:07 PM by Foxy Freedom »
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Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #808 on: April 07, 2014, 07:48:47 PM »
Hmm knowing that God has no limitations (he is infinite) it might be hard to convince me that Boris is more powerful or that he doesn't have the limitations that God has.
Let's imagine that someone convince me that it was the case, I would then call him God and use Boris as a nickname :) He would still be the same God that gave me the Bible and/or Jesus. Just under another name.

Let me ask you a question(or two):


Is the God who gave you the Bible the same God who didn't give Muslim children the Bible?

And . . . is this the same God that "has no limitations"?
Enough with your bullshit.
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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #809 on: April 07, 2014, 08:45:04 PM »

I'm trying to prove to you (all) that nothing is real or everything is real.
That if you think that Love is real then God is real.

I have no questions, except why in the heck do you connect the two. Where is there so much love in the world that the only source could be your god? What about all the places where there is no love, or where love is distorted or misused or taken advantage of?

I am aware of love because it is not a constant. It is something I have in my life, but not something that I experience every minute. When I am with those I love and who love me, then whammo, there it is. When I am not with them, my awareness of love diminishes markedly and I face the real world with other thoughts and emotions in mind. If I'm working, where does the love come in? If I am driving to the store, where is the love? Where is the love when I'm at the store? Where is the love when I do any of a thousand every day things that don't involve people I love?

You need to explain a lot more about this love fetish you've got. Why is love so fantastic? Why is love so obvious to you that you are willing to overlook genocide, terrorism, one percenters, gang members, brutal police officers, inconsiderate drivers, car salesmen, bankers and/or politicians? Why is love so obvious to you when so many marriages fail, and fail more often in religious households than secular ones? Where is the love when a man beats his wife or molests his children? Where is the love when people hate gays publicly while being gay privately? Where is the love in racism, inter-religious hatred, housing projects or Internet spammers?

I'm not denying that love exists. But it does not exist to prominently that it automatically a feature in life. It is merely one of many emotional attachments/detachments available to humans, and while it is certainly wonderful when it is consistent with actions and behavior, it is never such a complete experience that it puts all other feelings to shame.

Love is a part of reality, but it is not all of reality. Too many other factors play in to our lives every day. You might as well be claiming that the rich love us so much that they keep all the money so we won't have to be bothered with trying to figure out how to spend it and stuff. You are distorting reality and proclaiming you POV to be accurate, so much so that it verifies your god.

Since you lack the necessary brainwashing apparatus to make your story seem real, it is failing. And it will continue to do so. Forever.

Added: If there is anything that might help me believe there is a god, it would be laughter. It wouldn't work either, but at least I'd see the connection. You know. Between a good laugh and a funny idea.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 08:47:23 PM by ParkingPlaces »
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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #810 on: April 07, 2014, 10:09:17 PM »
I'm trying to prove to you (all) that nothing is real or everything is real.

That isn't a very healthy perspective.  In fact, I think that an inability (or refusal)  to sort out real from unreal could be positively hazardous to one's ability to survive in the world.

Quote
That if you think that Love is real then God is real.

Riddle Me this, Lukvance:  Why, then, do I see Love as real but your god as unreal?
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Probabilities of God's existence debate
« Reply #811 on: April 08, 2014, 04:38:05 AM »
Let's see then, here is the definition I am starting with,

"Reality" can have an effect independently of whether any person has a concept of it. "Unreality" cannot have an effect independently of any person's concept of it. In other words "unreality" is only a concept.

"Reality" and "unreality" stand for something real or unreal. You can replace them with a concept or thing to see if it is real or not. If it is real you can give an example of the effect.

For bacteria. 1) Bacteria can have an effect independently of whether any person has a concept of it. 2) Bacteria cannot have an effect independently of any person's concept of it. In other words bacteria is only a concept. The answer is 1) because bacteria causes diseases

For the sun. 1) The sun can have an effect independently of whether any person has a concept of it. 2) The sun cannot have an effect independently of any person's concept of it. In other words the sun is only a concept. The answer is 1) because the sun causes sun burn

For love. 1) Love can have an effect independently of whether any person has a concept of it. 2) Love cannot have an effect independently of any person's concept of it. In other words love is only a concept. The answer is 1) because love is an emotion which animals have, they love their babies for example.

For a god 1) A god can have an effect independently of whether any person has a concept of it. 2) A god cannot have an effect independently of any person's concept of it. In other words a god is only a concept. The answer is 2) because a god can do nothing unless you or someone else has invented the concept. The Flying Spaghetti Monster is the same.

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